np: UU Stage 1 - Changes

[Schpoonman]

Beedrill just doesn't have the room for Swords Dance. It needs Protect even more than Mega Alakazam for a safe Mega Evolution, and Bug/Poison isn't good enough coverage to sweep reliably. I ran Knock Off for a little bit, but Drill Run is way better to take care of stuff like Lucario and other Poison-types. You miss out on hitting Crobat just a little bit harder (two Knock Offs hits harder than two resisted Poison Jabs), but you can't stay in anyway since Beedrill is more frail than wet tissue paper. I saw a Beedrill running Fell Stinger in RU, but UU isn't that kind. It's absolutely a threat, but Beedrill just doesn't have the stones to work as a reliable sweeper, it's much better as a hit-and-run attacker. Not quite as fast as some scarfers, and not quite as strong as some bandmons, but it certainly strikes a powerful balance between the two.

Also: Please don't ever run a boosting move and a pivoting move unless it's Baton Pass.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Beedrill just doesn't have the room for Swords Dance. It needs Protect even more than Mega Alakazam for a safe Mega Evolution, and Bug/Poison isn't good enough coverage to sweep reliably. I ran Knock Off for a little bit, but Drill Run is way better to take care of stuff like Lucario and other Poison-types. You miss out on hitting Crobat just a little bit harder (two Knock Offs hits harder than two resisted Poison Jabs), but you can't stay in anyway since Beedrill is more frail than wet tissue paper. I saw a Beedrill running Fell Stinger in RU, but UU isn't that kind. It's absolutely a threat, but Beedrill just doesn't have the stones to work as a reliable sweeper, it's much better as a hit-and-run attacker. Not quite as fast as some scarfers, and not quite as strong as some bandmons, but it certainly strikes a powerful balance between the two.

Also: Please don't ever run a boosting move and a pivoting move unless it's Baton Pass.

This child clearly has never heard of SD + U-Turn Scizor before...

Again, I use SD Beedrill behind Screens, which means that it has **barely** enough defensive backing to get one safe boost.

 

[Schpoonman]

I HAVE heard of SD + U-turn Scizor before, and I told off every friend that was breeding one back when XY first came out. Just use Banded Scizor or SD with Bug Bite!

I did not see that you said you were using screens, that would give it enough bulk to pull it off. Maybe. I mean, I was expecting Beedrill to take less than 11% from an unboosted Life Orb Mach Punch from Infernape a day or two ago and it failed to do so, and that's colored my perception of how much punishment Beedrill can take.

 

[Sgt. Stardust]

My opponent was bad but holy shit Altaria has to go

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-188877403

 

[Patrick1088]

My opponent was bad but holy shit Altaria has to go

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-188877403

This guys team was weak to just about any booster tbh, even DD Haxorus. This is not a good replay at all and should not be used to advocate an altarianite ban. Mega Aggron, Bronzong, mega Beedrill are all good checks to Mrga Altaria.

I havent seen too much mega altaria to really comment, but have been running into Mega Beedrill mostly. The few times that i ran into altaria it stared dumbly at Zong or tried to uselessly boost on Curse Unaware Quagsire...so, im neutral for the time being...

 

[GULLY]

Altaria is almost broke rn. The thing is by the nature of its STAB its checks dont usually have reliable recovery so its just more threatening. Idk whatll be dropping next month but based on that I think that what the meta will be then will greatly effect its brokenness. Hopefully council is not rushing this bc nothing is blaringly broken bar klefki. Which is just too over centralizing. If ur running offense, not a balance variant, offense, its something u need to run or prepare to such a level it limits team building. I 9/10 times see the screens set which the thread has already talked about, but that thing should go. I have zero problem with the thunderus esc factor it has but its supporting move pool is just retarded. Its swiss army army knife for offense that makes every team better.that cant be said for many other mons. The only thing us tgat it might throw other things out of balance like m-drill is a huge threat to p much all teams especially offense and klefki acts a great check to it. Yet n still it shud go

 

[UU ALL DAY]

Many are talking about altaria and klef, but i've battled like 2 volc's in the last week, which is surprising. I honestly think volc is a bigger issue than alta because Steel typing was always good, and volc literally beats 9/10 steel types you throw at it, and with its last move (either coverage or recovery), it has the potential to sweep teams at least as well as late game lucario.

I think altaria has a better typing/longevity, but for raw power and damage, i really think volc beats altaria in that respect (tho altaria can beat checks/counters with a tailored movepool).

 

[Hogg]

I would agree, Volc and Klefki are the two biggest problems in UU right now. Screens Klefki is obviously the version getting the most attention, but I've been running double status Klef on a balance team and it's also pretty brutal.

I guess I haven't had a ton of problems with Alt because all of my teams have had a pretty solid counter/check to it, be it Beedrill or Bronzong or Klefki or what have you. It's good, certainly one of the best sweepers in the tier, but I don't think it is nearly as deadly as Volcarona right now.

 

[Tom the Bomb]

One mega that catches my eye is Mega Glalie. While it is overshadowed by the far more versatile Mega Altaria and Mega Diancie, it is still very dangerous. What does everybody think are good teammates for this monster? I would imagine something that easily takes care of Bronzong, which completely shits on Glalie.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

What are the opinions on Mega Gallade? Fucker has a 165 atk and a 110 speed with Swords Dance and strong STAB and coverage. Stall has a decent load of issues with it outside of maybe, eviolite gligar idk

i honestly dk but to me it feels a bit broke considering that it sits in a pretty good speed tier with absolutely insane attack coupled with SD.

also fuck mega diancie how the fuck is 160/160 offenses still legal with 50/110/110 bulk

 

[Meru]

What are the opinions on Mega Gallade? Fucker has a 165 atk and a 110 speed with Swords Dance and strong STAB and coverage. Stall has a decent load of issues with it outside of maybe, eviolite gligar idk

i honestly dk but to me it feels a bit broke considering that it sits in a pretty good speed tier with absolutely insane attack coupled with SD.

also fuck mega diancie how the fuck is 160/160 offenses still legal with 50/110/110 bulk

Seeing as how the meta is absolutely Fairy dominated right now, that might have something to do with why Mega Gallade is sliding under the radar but yeah the biggest boon is that its Defense stat goes from 65 to 95, making it much harder to revenge

 

[UU ALL DAY]

I feel like both Altaria and Volc are great sweepers, but both have different sweeping styles. Volc likes to come in on a resisted hit (like all), but it really only does damage to teams that lack a counter to it, otherwise, it can be easily revenged/taken care of. I feel like altaria can literally beat teams because of the combination of roost, heal bell, dd, and return. Just remove the steel type (duggy/ton), and it can just go savage on teams. Volc demands more team support in that SR must be gone, and special walls like blissey can poop on it with wave + seismic toss. Physical walls that aren't steel types (like gligar, suicine, swampert, donphan) can't really beat altaria, whereas Volc is beaten by its hard counters (such as fire types if it lacks hp water/rock).

I think both are definitely two threats that every team needs to prepare for.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Seeing as how the meta is absolutely Fairy dominated right now, that might have something to do with why Mega Gallade is sliding under the radar but yeah the biggest boon is that its Defense stat goes from 65 to 95, making it much harder to revenge

Regarding how fairy-based the meta is, Gallade has more than enough special bulk to take a Moonblast from florges / aroma, if they switch in on an SD, which I feel that it finds many opportunities to do so. I guess it's still revenge able from stuff like crobat, but it's still a huge threat.

 

[Hogg]

The main difference between Volc and Altaria, in my opinion, is that Altaria isn't that dangerous with only a single dance under her belt. Don't get me wrong, +1 Frustration hurts... but most teams have something that can stomach a hit from it even if they don't have a dedicated Altaria answer. Its Speed is also problematic, as it can be outsped by basically every relevant Scarfer and some non-Scarfers even at +1. It really needs at least two boosts to muscle through physically defensive walls and even otherwise frail resists, and to avoid being revenged. It has decent bulk, so getting multiple boosts really isn't out of the question, but that means it can be played around even if not specifically counter-teamed.

Compare that to Volc, who is so deadly after a single boost that you really need things like Fletchinder, Scarfnape/Scarfshao (better hope that Stone Edge hits for Scarfshao to be a check!) or TWave Blissey to comfortably stop it. Specially bulky answers like Florges and Umbreon don't cut it, and it outspeeds the most common Scarfers after a boost. The LO + 3 attacks set with Fire Blast/Fiery Dance, Bug Buzz and HP Water that was posted upthread muscles past most of the tier. Even Altaria is 2HKO'd by Fire Blast after a Quiver Dance, while Volcarona gives zero ducks about eating a Pixilate Frustration in return.

 

[Tom the Bomb]

So I've been playing around with Mega Glalie a bit more now and I have mixed feelings about it. Sure, it is a great wallbreaker with Double Edge and Explosion but its coverage moves are either nonexistent or piss weak (earthquake coming from unboosted base 120 attack is not strong at all). It also suffers from 4MSS, wanting to run Double Edge, Explosion, Freeze Dry, Ice Shard and Freeze Dry, 4 of which are ice type moves lol. Not to mention it has one of the shittiest typings in the game, pure ice, leaving it with one resist, many weaknesses and a weakness to Stealth Rock. It is also weak to many forms of priority such as Mach Punch and Bullet Punch. Finally, it sits at the relatively mediocre speed tier of base 100, leaving it revenge killed by half the metagame.

However, its wall breaking skills are not to be underestimated. If the opponent has no steel types left, 9/10 times Glalie comes in it gets a kill. Unfortunately, that is a HUGE if. Due to the popularity of Mega Aggron, Bronzong, Jirachi, and bulky waters, Glalie often fails to deal enough damage, even with explosion. That's why it is best paired with things that can take bulky steels and waters out. Overall, Mega Glalie is really mediocre but can be effective with the right team support.

 

[RyanKoopa]

So correct me If I'm wrong, but the consensus seems to be we should ban Mega Diancie and Mega Altaria and reban Volcarona, Togekiss and Klefki. Is this correct?

 

[boltsandbombers]

So correct me If I'm wrong, but the consensus seems to be we should ban Mega Diancie and Mega Altaria and reban Volcarona, Togekiss and Klefki. Is this correct?

Personally I agree with everything, although I haven't seen many really good arguments as to why mega diancie should be banned besides "it has good bulk and fairy typing". Thoughts?

 

[Machi]

Personally I agree with everything, although I haven't seen many really good arguments as to why mega diancie should be banned besides "it has good bulk and fairy typing". Thoughts?

I personally find it a bit of a mixed bag. The stats and ability and typing are intimidating but in terms of does it need to be quick banned it just doesn't stand out as badly as the other suspects, in the same way I'm not seeing Altaria stand out. Suspect worthy? Definitely. Quick ban worthy... I'm not so sure.

To be honest the ones that really stand out for quick ban are Klefki, Volcarona (access to one of the best boosts in-game and good stats to pair off), and Togekiss (all around versatility + bulk + power). These guys actually stand out and make their traits more apparent. I guess part of the reason is that these guys don't take up a mega slot whereas MDiancie and MAlt do so the slots do tend to be more exclusive. Then again maybe at the moment it is because there are such stand out suspects that it becomes very easy to overlook other things, regardless I'd rather see the first three banned then I think it would be easier to look into the new megas.

 

[Cloud_Nine987]

Mega Diancie seems like it excels in UU! I haven't played UU, but it's insanely good in OU with the right support, so I would think that it'd be better here in UU. Lucario and Toxicroak have Bullet Punch, and Metagross does too (not sure if he's all the way down here or not), so that's really all you need to keep it in check. It's screwed over by waters too, but Mega Blastoise, Empoleon, Quagsire, and Tentacruel are all 2HKO'd by one of its moves...I think it may be too much for the tier. But again, I don't play it, so I could be 100% wrong!

 

[s0nido]

I don't think people realise how piss-poor M-Diancie's 50 HP really is. It does have very good 110/110 defences, but its HP really lets it down and doesn't even let it take resisted hits that well. That's not to mention the plethora of Steel-type moves running around the place. It's definitely a great Pokemon, but after using it for a while, I just don't think it's broken enough to quick-ban. I haven't been able to play around with the other S-Ranked Pokemon, so I can't attest to how broken they are.

 

[Cloud_Nine987]

I don't think people realise how piss-poor M-Diancie's 50 HP really is. It does have very good 110/110 defences, but its HP really lets it down and doesn't even let it take resisted hits that well. That's not to mention the plethora of Steel-type moves running around the place. It's definitely a great Pokemon, but after using it for a while, I just don't think it's broken enough to quick-ban. I haven't been able to play around with the other S-Ranked Pokemon, so I can't attest to how broken they are.

Oh yes, trust me, I do. Its bulk is deceptive, and she's very easily worn down. Lucario and Toxicroak both possess Bullet Punch. It might end up being too much for the tier, but it seems easy enough to manage with the right Pokemon on your team.

 

[s0nido]

Oh yes, trust me, I do. Its bulk is deceptive, and she's very easily worn down. Lucario and Toxicroak both possess Bullet Punch. It might end up being too much for the tier, but it seems easy enough to manage with the right Pokemon on your team.

That's not to mention the bulky waters which can take its special and/or phsyical hits and retaliate with a super-effective Scald.

 

[Schpoonman]

Well, I'll be out with it since I've been thinking this for a while now: I'm totally unimpressed by Mega Altaria, at least as an offensive sweeper, which seems to be everyone's concern. It's just so damn SLOW that as scary as +1 Return is that unless it gets multiple boosts it won't put in the work it needs to. For instance, if Altaria is Adamant (which it really needs for power), it's outsped at +1 by Mega Beedrill who cleanly OHKOs with Poison Jab. Even with Adamant, it has absolutely zero answers for Mega Aggron with even a little physical bulk investment while you are, again, cleanly OHKO'd by Heavy Slam. You also need to get in and get a free turn to boost. It is easier once you get your Mega Evolution in (that typing is Jesus-tier, I swear), but Dragon/Flying doesn't do you many favors, especially since you're weak to Stealth Rock which can make revenging Mega Altaria MUCH easier. I will say that DD Mega Altaria can royally fuck up Stall with cleric support and maybe a Sub, but so does SD Haxorus.

All in all, I find Mega Altaria to be about as threatening as any other Dragon Dance sweeper (besides Haxorus, fuck you Hydreigon), but not ban-worthy. I don't really have the playstyle for it, but the set that intrigues/scares the everloving shit out of me is the bulky special attacker. You get Draco Meteor and Fire Blast to take care of Fairy resists, and then you can slap around shit with Hyper Voice. Hell, it's probably a fucking terrifying NP recipient (which is probably gonna end up being Togetic, thank fuck Togekiss will be gone soon).

Mega Diancie also doesn't seem too bad to me, but I like to keep a healthy Nidoqueen around, and it doesn't OHKO with Earth Power unless it has a boost, while Diancie's base 50 HP undermines any bulk it might have. The Rock Polish set bops Offense but gets shut down by Stall and Balance, while the Calm Mind set poops on Stall and Balance but is easily revenged by Offense. Seems balanced to me.

 

[Hogg]

Yeah, I'd say thus far to definitely ban Volc and Klefki, probably ban Togekiss, and hold off on Diancie and Alt.

I say probably re: Toge because, while it is still pretty toxic, this is probably the least friendly the metagame has been toward it in a long time. Steel types like Bronzong, Jirachi and MAggron are everywhere right now, as are the Nidos. Then there is the fact that several of the new Megas really ruin Togekiss' day - Beedrill can't switch in but will always outspeed and OHKO, Diancie resists Air Slash and bounces back TWave while also threatening a strong Diamond Storm, and Steelix (lol) is immune to TWave and can tank a Fire Blast if necessary to OHKO with Heavy Slam or Gyro Ball.

It's still really, really good - but it's not as completely awful as it used to be.

I expressed my thoughts on why Altaria is good but maybe not overwhelming upthread. Diancie is better right off the bat thanks to Magic Bounce and that nice Speed tier, but harder to boost and lacks recovery. I think she's damned good, don't get me wrong - I'm playing a Diancie team right now. But her bulk is disappointing because of that crap HP, and all those Steel types I just mentioned really hurt her. Sure, she's got Earth Power - but she's not going to OHKO Jirachi or MAggron (or lol Bronzong) with it unboosted.

All in all, I'd prefer to see how Altaria and Diancie do in a metagame without Klefki/Volcarona/(maybe) Togekiss before they get banned.

Is the general consensus that Staraptor should stay? I haven't seen much discussion on it.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

I honestly think Togekiss isn't aids in the tier. Sure, the flinch hax allows it to beat its would be counters, but I've seen so many bronzongs, m-aggron, rachi and raikou it's ridic. Tbh, I only see togekiss getting banned (justifiably, as in not ppl just crying in the council) if raikou and rachi go up to OU (which rumor has it). I think Mega-altaria is still a way bigger threat than kiss, especially since nidoqueen/king are still pretty good in the tier, mega-beedrill and things like that are also popular.

Staraptor is pretty much the best wall-breaker imo, because it can beat so many of its counters with banded uturn and cc. But with hazards, priority, and recoil, it can't really last long. I think it's a better darmanitan, but i prefer mega-pidgeot since it gets arguably better coverage in heat-wave, and most steel types seem to have fatter physical defense anyways. I think it's nice and balanced in the tier, something that can break offensive teams, plus things like mega-loppuny, beedrill, etc outspeed and KO after rocks if it isn't scarfed.