Other Stall

[HolyAvatar]

Resorting to dragon+fairy coverage is so fucking sad as you're walled by any random steal type giving free turns left and right and losing your mega slot for that.
Even the retarded Azu I submitted has more utility.

 

[Celticpride]

Resorting to dragon+fairy coverage is so fucking sad as you're walled by any random steal type giving free turns left and right and losing your mega slot for that.
Even the retarded Azu I submitted has more utility.

Well, you need Dragon Claw for the appropriate 3HKOs and 2HKOs. Return is there to take advantage of Pixilate. If you want you can run Fire Blast or something like that. Being "walled by Steels" isn't a make it or break it thing, otherwise the popular mono-attacking Return sets wouldn't exist.

 

[HolyAvatar]

Well, you need Dragon Claw for the appropriate 3HKOs and 2HKOs. Return is there to take advantage of Pixilate. If you want you can run Fire Blast or something like that. Being "walled by Steels" isn't a make it or break it thing, otherwise the popular mono-attacking Return sets wouldn't exist.

Well this is the stall topic. Steels are already a pain to deal with for stall as they resist SR and are immune to toxic. Furthermore, you won't have a magnezone to easily dispose of them. Honestly running a pokemon that is a lousy win condition and provides no utility is very bad for stall. If you're not against a charizard (or Mega gyarados since that set is good against it) you're starting 5v6. You even lose on pokes like Mega venu/bro/eye that are extremely useful for stall right now.

I may have sounded harsh but I also tried very hard to make it work but to no avail. HP rock is dumb and doesn't even Ohko. The unreliability problem against CharY isn't solved by your set since this was his concern:

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Altaria: 114-135 (32.2 - 38.2%)
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Altaria in Sun: 126-148 (35.6 - 41.9%)
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mega Altaria: 114-134 (32.2 - 37.9%)

You're cutting it awfully close with those numbers, especially when you don't know if you'll be mega'd or unmega'd and taking 12% or 25% from rocks. A single burn hax or crit or flinch or any prior status and you're done.

The only answer I can give you is to use it as a scouting tool that won't get murdered by either forme. If it is CharX you can deal with it, if it charY switch in your chansey/tentacruel. You can afford to give another turn to CharY unlike CharX who could sweep you on the spot. That way you can safely run hyper voice/ fire blast or EQ for heatran/ roost / heal bell and run a more defensive spread that can also wall LO latios (psyshock) and survive a +2 eq from Garchomp and other strong attacks.

 

[jpw234]

SpD Gyarados is the classic answer to "walls both Zards". Mega-Altaria does the job fine, though, particularly since Charizard-Y is much worse than other specially attacking wallbreakers like Mega-Gardevoir at the moment.

 

[HolyAvatar]

SpD Gyarados is the classic answer to "walls both Zards". Mega-Altaria does the job fine, though, particularly since Charizard-Y is much worse than other specially attacking wallbreakers like Mega-Gardevoir at the moment.

Thank you for this idea!
A spread of 248hp/112def/148+ SpDef looks great and of course also deals with Lando-I and keldeo (Rest talk doesn't care about scald burns), Greninja only 3hkos with rocks up. It even wins against Mega Gard if rocks are not up.
This thing is incredible. I used it a long time ago in Gen 5 with rain stall, I can't believe I forgot how good it was.

 

[56k]

Now that sounds like a better idea, bulky gyarados. That's been in and out of this thread before but I, too, forgot completely about it. Hmm so what set are we talking? RestTalkWaterfallDTail? Earthquake? Bounce? What's the last slot? Definitely want to slap this on a team and try it out. The fact that team preview it can possibly confuse the opponent as to what your mega is, is a nice bonus as well.

 

[peng]

Gyara is by no means an answer to Zard X, even at -1 its 3HKOing with DClaw and the best you do back is TWave or DTail. Thats best case scenario, you lose even harder if it DDs on the switch-in, or has Outrage or SD. Its barely even a check.

p.s. I RMTd a SDef Gyara team the other day, its cool but not a Zard X check let alone counter
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/vikrant-peaked-1.3523185/#post-5888940

 

[HolyAvatar]

Gyara is by no means an answer to Zard X, even at -1 its 3HKOing with DClaw and the best you do back is TWave or DTail. Thats best case scenario, you lose even harder if it DDs on the switch-in, or has Outrage or SD. Its barely even a check.

p.s. I RMTd a SDef Gyara team the other day, its cool but not a Zard X check let alone counter
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/vikrant-peaked-1.3523185/#post-5888940

Depends if it goes for the DD or not.
-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Gyarados: 135-160 (34.3 - 40.7%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Gyarados: 204-240 (51.9 - 61%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

A more defensive spread, needing defog/spin/Mega eye support:
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 244 Def Gyarados: 177-208 (45 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Gyarados in Sun: 140-165 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Gyarados: 136-161 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I wonder why there isn't a definitve spread in the analysis. The fully defensive spread looks like a waste to me.

 

[kirant]

Depends if it goes for the DD or not.

Going by October stats (which is to say, not updated for ORAS), it is still extremely common...about ~80% use it overall, ~70% when you look at the 1825+ stats if we make the assumption that Charizard-Y has negligible numbers of DDance users.

I'd say plan for the DDance set first against Charizard-X.

 

[Ajwf]

I did use Spdef Gyarados for a long time when I was working with ZardX counters. Let me give you a hint: Don't make that mistake. It just ends up sleeping in the matches a zardx is around in and you essentially rely on hitting a sleep talk dragon tail. I much prefer the solid countering of Rhyperior or Bro as opposed to this mediocre two-way that is Gyarados.


And yes, due to reliable recovery, MAlt definitely can take both. I opt to just stall out Y and just let rhyperior take X so I can do other things, but it's all prerogative. Let's be honest, you can always just guess at X/Y if you run a strong armed counter to both. Depending on how good your counter is just determines what you expect. If I have Chansey and Rhyperior, I always expect Y because Rhyperior can take X so damn well it doesn't matter if it gets a DD up.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

So just titlted hard going from mid 1600s to about 1500.
During my tilt I ran into 2 gothitelle teams and 3 RD Manaphy and a CM morning sun Stored power Espeon.

Seems like teams are being extremely antistall atm, is this just me or are other people seeing this?

 

[56k]

Lol you basically described all of my worst fears in a short post. Goth is pretty nuts and one way I've safely dealt with it is by having a dedicated "lure" pokemon such as shed shell mew with knock off. It's pretty ridiculous to go to that extent, but then again the "useless" item in 95% of battles isn't sorely missed on a pokemon with recovery and willo. Mew isn't bad on stall at all. And it feels worth it when there's a specs thunderbolt goth out there gunning for slowbro or a CM rest that supposedly "auto wins" vs stall teams.

For me espeon was a reality check that it's not so simple to go without answers to baton pass besides whirlwind (which obviously doesnt work here). After seeing a few geomancy smeargles, iron defense scolipedes, NP celebis, and plenty of espeons or diancie recievers I had to suck it up and get a real answer to it haze or clear smog.

But manaphy? Well I was using tentacruel without problems until a few showed up with psychic. Self setting rain dance sets can muscle through chansey too. Not sure what to do here considering water/ice/grass/psycic coverage to take into account but phazing empoleon seems like a choice.

 

[chimpact]

you always want leftovers. you can play around goth by bringing mew in as few times as possible or going for knock off / taunt on the switch preventing yourself from getting crippled.

 

[56k]

So after trying it out I've decided that custom bulky talonflame sets are a real asset to any stall team. Run lefties and both STABs and roost and 4th can be SD or willo (but I prefer SD). The reason I think it's so great is it gives stall one of their only options for speed or priority. Fire STAB is also extraordinarily useful and stall is limited in options to basically heatran, charizard, maybe rotom-h, and of course talonflame itself.

Now it is not without drawbacks: rotom-w and heatran are commonly paired up and are already enough of a headache for most stall teams, but building a team around that fact and basically running 5 stall mons to take out talonflame's checks/counters or at least wear them down, is seeming to be a pretty good strategy for me. The thing is, it's ridiculously difficult to build a team that directly counters most offensive threats, so having a back up brave bird if you make a bad prediction or whatnot is a wonderful failsafe.

This is basically the best playstyle anyway: 5 stall/walls/bulk mons and 1 sweeping threat. Talonflame is an amazing pick there because of its utility against frail but powerful threats like sceptile and lopunny and greninja. It has useful resistances and immunities, too, and if hazards are down it can actaully safely switch in on a surprising amount of things.

Basically, I always try to have a fire type on stall despite the water/rock/ground weaknesses, because it cuts down on the opponents willo spam, it keeps ferrothorns and skarms away from laying hazards, and I think talonflame works well even on stall because of speed, recovery, and can ohko plenty of offensive threats while retaining EVs for bulk.

From a stall perspective there is a little bit of 4mss here because you want all of brave bird, flare blitz, roost, willo, taunt, and sd. I think the first 3 are mandatory to make it work, and willo/taunt/sd is a preference thing but I'll say again that simple SD is enough to get it done late in the game. There's no perfect set, obviously, and investing so much in HP, spdef, and some speed makes it an awfully lot weaker than the banded ones that OHKO even latios - but the compensation is the pressure you can keep on your opponent with it and the easy kills that result if you keep up hazards and status with your stallers.

edit: and here's the team Altaria / Talonflame / Mew / Skarmory / Tentacruel / Hippowdon

Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Flamethrower
- Toxic
- Roost

Talonflame @ Leftovers
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 248 HP / 88 Atk / 108 SpD / 64 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Swords Dance
- Roost

Mew @ Shed Shell
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 240 HP / 116 Def / 152 Spe
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Heal Bell

Skarmory @ Shed Shell
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 180 Def / 80 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Whirlwind
- Roost

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 208 HP / 16 Def / 252 SpD / 32 Spe
Calm Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Acid Spray
- Haze
- Scald

Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
- Slack Off

Some issues with azumarill, landorus-I, and of course rotom-w but so far no battle has seemed unwinnable

 

[Sablenite]

Almost anything with encore or taunt says $#!% stall without a poke magic bounce. That being said there are few pokemon who are viable with that ability. The only thing remotely close is Espeon & M-Saybleye.

 

[Pitcher]

I'm new to battling but stall definitely seems where I want to be. I really want to make use of Rotom-H so I started there and then added Empoleon and Chesnaught for hazards. Up next I add Gliscor to cover some weaknesses and finally an Unaware CM Clefable to check some boosters and maybe eventually sweep. Still unsure on my last slot and I'm not even sure this team could be viable or if it'll have to be completely redone. I would love to hear your suggestions.

Rotom-H
move 1: Overheat
move 2: Volt Switch
move 3: Will-O-Wisp
move 4: Rest
ability: Levitate
item: Chesto Berry
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD


Chesnaught
move 1: Spikes
move 2: Super Fang/Leech Seed
move 3: Drain Punch
move 4: Spiky Shield
ability: Bulletproof
item: Leftovers
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def


Empoleon
move 1: Scald
move 2: Toxic
move 3: Roar
move 4: Stealth Rock
ability: Torrent
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD


Gliscor
Move 1: Substitute
Move 2: Toxic
Move 3: Protect
Move 4: Earthquake
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
Nature: Impish
EVs: 244 HP / 28 Def / 236 Spe

Clefable
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Moonblast
move 3: Moonlight / Wish
move 4: Flamethrower / Protect
ability: Unaware
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
nature: Bold

 

[heritage]

IMO crocune has a great spot in stall

Hi, please don't make one lines posts that don't have any effect on the thread. At least explain why CroCune works on stall.
Ex: CroCune works fantastically as a set up bulky sweeper that handles M Sableye since Scald can burn for extra damage and it can set up Calm Minds as well
Something like that

 

[Sablenite]

Gastro or Gyara? Yes and Yes. Both do better this gen than old tentacruel. Intimidate is really helpful on stall right now to slow down sweepers a tad bit. I love using resttalk gyarados, although it is slightly gimmicky.

Venu's two weaknesses (flying, psychic) are in half covered by rotom-heat (the flying part). The ground neutrality is taken care of here expect when moldbreaker excadrill comes (again, gastro should win that fight every time). Rotom's weaknesses are rocks and water. Unfortunately, neither are nice, but both are perfectly covered by gastrodon.

Just make sure you get a really, really strong defog user. Might even be worth investing into mega scizor or mega blastoise just to secure longevity and spins/defogs (though mandi, skarm should also do fine).

Unaware Quagsire is more viable with stockpile, recover, earthquake, scald/toxic.
The Rotom forms, can if needed run hex alongside WoW/T-Wave

 

[Veleno]

What is the purpose of Stockpile? Even at +3 offensive variants of Mega Venusaur have a good chance to 2HKO you with Giga Drain, while you can do nothing in return. If someone manages to toxic you, you are also screwed.
I don't get the point of Hex on Rotom either, it does not even get STAB and you have to forego another move, which Rotom can't afford to.

 

[heritage]

What is the purpose of Stockpile? Even at +3 offensive variants of Mega Venusaur have a good chance to 2HKO you with Giga Drain, while you can do nothing in return. If someone manages to toxic you, you are also screwed.
I don't get the point of Hex on Rotom either, it does not even get STAB and you have to forego another move, which Rotom can't afford to.

Stockpile is ok if you get rid of and Grass types before trying it. Although toxic does wear it down, so it's really not that good.
Hex is just bad in all circumstances.

 

[G-Beast]

I'm new to battling but stall definitely seems where I want to be. I really want to make use of Rotom-H so I started there and then added Empoleon and Chesnaught for hazards. Up next I add Gliscor to cover some weaknesses and finally an Unaware CM Clefable to check some boosters and maybe eventually sweep. Still unsure on my last slot and I'm not even sure this team could be viable or if it'll have to be completely redone. I would love to hear your suggestions.

Rotom-H
move 1: Overheat
move 2: Volt Switch
move 3: Will-O-Wisp
move 4: Rest
ability: Levitate
item: Chesto Berry
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD


Chesnaught
move 1: Spikes
move 2: Super Fang/Leech Seed
move 3: Drain Punch
move 4: Spiky Shield
ability: Bulletproof
item: Leftovers
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def


Empoleon
move 1: Scald
move 2: Toxic
move 3: Roar
move 4: Stealth Rock
ability: Torrent
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD


Gliscor
Move 1: Substitute
Move 2: Toxic
Move 3: Protect
Move 4: Earthquake
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
Nature: Impish
EVs: 244 HP / 28 Def / 236 Spe

Clefable
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Moonblast
move 3: Moonlight / Wish
move 4: Flamethrower / Protect
ability: Unaware
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
nature: Bold

From my point of view, Black Kyurem is going to be something you need an answer to. Chesnaught takes a minimum of 67.8% from an invested Adamant Ice Beam, and the same Ice Beam pulverizes Gliscor. It can carry Iron Head to beat Clefable, and Outrage will OHKO Rotom-H 31.3% of the time or guaranteed with Stealth Rock if it is holding a Choice Band. Sufficed to say, Fusion Bolt will make Empoleon wimper in fear. And if you encounter one of the specially based variants, Rotom-H is smashed by Earth Power

 

[SketchUp]

Earth Power isn't that common on Kyurem-B and stall actually has some answers to it: Bronzong, SpD Jirachi, Cresselia, Clefable (if it lacks Iron Head) and Mega Scizor are great answers to Kyurem-B

 

[totoTavros]

Earth Power isn't that common on Kyurem-B and stall actually has some answers to it: Bronzong, SpD Jirachi, Cresselia, Clefable (if it lacks Iron Head) and Mega Scizor are great answers to Kyurem-B

Bronzong auto-loses to 252 un-item boosted Earth Power or CB Fusion Bolt, depending if it's physdef or spdef.
Any Jirachi spread can lose to LO Kyu-B, depending on the offensive investment.
Cress works.
Clef loses to CB Fusion Bolt
Mega Scizor works.

 

[Ajwf]

I rarely even think about Kyub any more when building stall. If I have a monster physical and a monster special wall that aren't weak to dragon (aka most...) or ice (still most), I feel I can take it as an afterthought since very few of them exist, or exist in something like a scarf variant.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Since getting counterteamed bad like a week ago playing stall on ladder, I stopped playing, (also due to finals) Are people still running hard stall breakers on ladder or can I actually play stall on ladder now?