ORAS In-game Tier List - Read Post #324

[dwarfstar]

Celever Giga Drain shouldn't be factored into Zubat's ranking under current policy. The move tutor for it is located in the Battle Resort, so you're only getting it on a story-mode Zubat by breeding, importing it from another game, or trying to pull it off the Dexnav.

 

[Celever]

Celever Giga Drain shouldn't be factored into Zubat's ranking under current policy. The move tutor for it is located in the Battle Resort, so you're only getting it on a story-mode Zubat by breeding, importing it from another game, or trying to pull it off the Dexnav.

Ah OK, thanks. I wasn't sure on the move tutor's location.

 

[Colonel M]

Actually I think A tier is for Absol. Even without the mega Absol hits pretty hard with STAB Night Slash - which is available at Level 29. The mega is available in the Safari Zone (IIRC it is pretty easy to obtain) which helps bolster Absol's offenses and Speed. Ice Beam is a detour but Absol is one of the better Pokemon to use it. Magic Bounce is beautiful against Phoebe and Wallace too - and Steven to an extent since Spikes being bounced back is nice.

Hell I will even test it if people want. Absol seems hella fun to use and definitely a good contender for A. Durability is not its ace of spades, but a good movepool and an awesome Mega help Absol out.

 

[FMD]

I used Absol (without mega) in my party as soon as it was available. Ability was Super Luck, which was definitely a major boon for it. Night Slash provides consistently high damage from (almost) the moment you catch it. (Level 27 at catch, Night Slash at level 29.) It plows through most encounters with raw damage and there shouldn't be any problem with leveling it early on.
It, expectedly, excels against Tate&Liza while also performing well against Wallace. Until getting X-Scissor on Victory Road, Absol will be rather lackluster against other Dark-types. This combined with Camerupt's bulk and Sharpedo's speed leaves standard Absol outclassed in battles against Magma and Aqua; Mega Absol may perform better here, but I did not use it so I cannot say. Absol should be able to beat most of Wally's party at the end of Victory Road, losing only to Sturdy Magneton and Gallade. Getting X-Scissor while going through Victory Road will allow Absol to beat Sidney's team in addition to already beating Phoebe's. Absol should also be able to take out both Cradily and Claydol easily when battling Steven and, unless you have a -Speed nature Absol like I did, it will be able to OHKO Metagross. Having Mega Absol should let it also beat Skarmory and outspeed Metagross even with a -Speed nature.

 

[Its_A_Random]

It will not destroy Brawley... Machop has Seismic Toss, and Makuhita has Knock Off. Considering they have superior stats to poor Zubat, Bulk Up and recovery from items, I think Zubat could easily lose here unless severely overlevelled. I'd rather train my starter beforehand to win here.

Nitpicking but this statement is quite false. A neutral 16 Attack IV Zubat at Level 16 can 2HKO Brawly's Pokémon even through Bulk Up (there is a chance of survival however...) and Zubat itself is highly likely to survive two Knock Offs (For reference, a flawless neutral uninvested Level 16 Ralts survives the 2HKO from an unboosted Knock Off and Zubat is bulkier physically). For reference, Brawly's Pokémon are 20 IV's across the board and have no EV investment. And this is assuming no investment into Zubat. Zubat certainly does not easily lose the Brawly matchup at an even level like you claim to do based off simple damage calcs unless I miscalculated something.

 

[Ender]

Just very quickly, I used absol as well and I think A tier suits it very well. It hits hard right off the bat and is useful for the rest of the game. Only problem is it comes kind of late, but once you get to that point it's easy to get and you get it's mega stone a couple minutes after capture if you have the acro bike.

 

[Colonel M]

Inb4 Treecko sweeps the gym with Giga Drain at Level 24 or smth.

(You can tell Im sick of it).

And yes Zubat does more than fine in that gym.

Anyway I have currently started a new file and, as promised, Treecko and Lotad currently reside in the party with Thunder Fang Poochyena. Atm I would say the Poochyena pulls its weight a little better than the other two but Treecko hasnt done too bad and Lotad could be worse.

 

[zomigi]

There is a Dawn Stone hidden outside of Sea Mauville by the sign, so Gallade should move up a few tiers (B maybe?).

Still disappointing that it doesn't arrive in time for Norman though.

 

[Colonel M]

There is a Dawn Stone hidden outside of Sea Mauville by the sign, so Gallade should move up a few tiers (B maybe?).

Still disappointing that it doesn't arrive in time for Norman though.

Are you 100% certain? Can anyone else confirm because that would also affect Froslass.

Thus far the only two "confirmed" locations are in Victory Road and Sea Mauville: http://serebii.net/pokearth/hoenn/seamauville.shtml - but that is after rematches and Dive IIRC.

 

[Lucchini]

Though I will confess the Water stone does come a little later than I thought. I dont see the issue presented to keeping it A - B might be worth investigating in.

My issue is that its typing is not particularly impressive (good offensively, but water and grass are redundant against all the rocks and grounds for instance; mediocre defensively with you losing resistances on both ends) and the typing is just about all that's actually above average about the Lotad line.

You say that Lotad has improved since RSE, but the improvement is minor - it got some STAB moves via level-up and TM. It also suffered some negative changes - Nature Power coming later (via TM and not learnt at such an early level) and Ice Beam being a very late and optional TM. It gets Power-up Punch but nothing worth pointing out as far as moves PuP powers up go. No Leaf Blade or anything of the kind; just a late Waterfall when you don't need it as much anymore.

The fact that you have the underwhelming Lombre form to be stuck with until you're done with 7 out of the game's 8 gyms is a big deal and makes its presence in S-tier unbelievable to the point of being surreal for me, but let's assume we are patient enough to baby it all that long... What for? Ludicolo's 70/90/70 offence? What is good about it?

The Slaking tidbit is very misleading. Slaking KOes one Pokemon but it must switch or do nothing every other turn. Maybe okay for Slakoth to climb a little, but youll have to be pretty convincing about A since trainers will start to carry a lot of Pokemon (barring some of the dumbfucks in Victory Road). Sweeping 5 of Drake's mons with Slaking is still slower than Gyarados (Kingdra is like the rare exception).

A lot of trainers use one (often quite strong) Pokemon. Slaking's ability to switch into one tough mon during an important battle and OHKO, just to switch to somebody else (maybe until next turn), is a very valuable asset. Silk Scarf-powered Giga Impact kills so many durable Pokemon in one single attack.

I'd also like to point out that very few Pokemon come close to soloing the game. In X/Y, the Charizard Megas were arguably the champions of that. Slaking having consistent OHKO potential keeps it relevant to the party as soon as it evolves, and Vigoroth is a highly usable second tier until then.

We've also been more sceptical towards setting up strategies in tier discussions in the recent threads. Gyarados might be able to consistently set up and sweet an entire team, but you're spending so many turns doing the setup (as a rule) that you might have as well just had individual members of your team take on select targets among the opposition. A good enough team can achieve just that, thus letting you spend less turns doing it.

I also want to point out that Gyarados is much more convenient to pick up than Slakoth. Slakoth comes roughly the same time your team is maybe 3-6 levels above Slakoth. Magikarp can come around that time or it can wait until after Wattson where it will be about 10 levels below and your team should be able to handle switches (especially with mons like Geodude). S Rank for Magikarp is shaky to justify - this I can agree with. But it does sit in a funky limbo between A and S.

The status of Gyarados has been more or less the same since DPPt IMHO; no significant changes in its utility since then. It's as spectacular as always when trained, and a good setup sweeper, but that switching period hurts it.

Can a case be made that Exp Share can lessen the pain of grinding up Pokemon like Slakoth/Magikarp/Abra? If all you have at that point is one other Pokemon (say, your starter), all it changes is how much switching out and in you do (you actually give the trainee less exp than you would by constant switches with the new exp mechanics)? What does everyone think?

I think we have agreed with Sharpedo being the superior mon to obtain at that point and I have pointed out it does alright with some in-game battles while saving time outside of battles (sorry, saving time outside of battles is still a worthy contribution to the team - especially when many trainers may seek TMs like Ice Beam and such). IAR was the original person to present this to me.

Contributions outside of battle are valid contributions, but if it's in S-tier then it absolutely must provide combat deserving of such a high ranking (granted, the current S-tier makes Carvanha not stand out as the odd one because of some other questions mons still in). It should also take hits a bit better! Not hits that are weak or resisted, I mean, and these also really sting.

I havent seen any counterarguments to Golem since I posted. Idc about Graveler being B. Im just saying stop trying to throw it in C where it doesnt even come close to belonging to.

Yeah, I'm busy and slow, sorry about that, but I'm really surprised none of the old visitors of the tier threads have shown up to support what seems to be such an obvious argument that is much in the tradition of the tier list discussions had on the Orange Islands for the last few years.

A Pokemon you use for 3 gyms and drop before more challenges come in is not a Pokemon to put into A tier, especially when its special defence and speed are so low.

Rollout and Rock Polish setup strategies are very unreliable, because you lack a means to ensure good accuracy for a very long time (this time comes when Golem is best unused according to you, and I can't argue there). Your chances to land Rollout 4-5 times in a row are around 60-ish per cent; even using Focus Blast with Alakazam against physically able dark-types is a better idea (Zam would rather use Dazzling Gleam anyway, but that's beside the point). It's also terribly time-consuming to spend so much time setting up.

I don't think the comparison to Mega Mawile says anything about Golem and his myriad issues at all. Seaking and Nidoking also had the same attack stat back in RBY, does that mean they were equal? Does that mean Seaking was any good at all? I think this is the case here as well. Mega Mawile has the typing, coverage and sheer offence Geodude would dream of.

Where we do agree on Geodude is when you say it's best not used after gym 5, possibly earlier because those Overheats really hurt the weak special defence. I just happen to think that since it's used for such a short period of time it's best not used at all. All it does is make your team weaker, both at the time it is still in use and afterwards.

Ive also addressed Lotad multiple times - to the point where I might as well pick him up in my next playthrough again I guess with Treecko and Geodude since their controversy is so high. I might as well hold them both back for Mega Drain and Giga Drain too - though as I said multiple times Lotad is much more comparable to a Water-type than Grass-type. Sucks because I really wanted to use Shroomish than Treecko - I sort of have a vendetta against non-Bulbasaur Grass-type starters (especially Chikorita. Good lord Gamefreak you fucked up that one).

You've addressed it a good deal of times, but I didn't see proof of it being good, only of it improving since RSE, which it did a little bit - it was even more mediocre on the whole back then, though. I'd agree that Lotad is more of a water-type because Bubblebeam and Surf come much sooner than their respective grass-type alternatives.

I think it's a very good idea that you'll test them side-by-side and I'm looking forward to your comparison. I'd also like to urge you to teach the Nature Power to both via TM and see what benefits it could have. I tried that with my Grovyle but I had to test so many things that the opportunities to use Nature Power weren't as numerous as I would've wanted.

The better proposition I will state is I will restart the game and test 4 mons side-by-side. I may add Zangoose as well because its potential for S Rank is climbing much higher than normal (pun intended?) Its_A_Random hold on to my Ralts a little longer please.

I think Zangoose's about the same it's always been, and still not quite an S. It's got no super-effective STAB against anything, it could be a bit faster as a rather fast sweeper with Power-up Punch/Swords Dance, and it could be better at taking hits. It might actually be worse in ORAS because it had Swords Dance earlier in RSE!

Actually I think A tier is for Absol. Even without the mega Absol hits pretty hard with STAB Night Slash - which is available at Level 29. The mega is available in the Safari Zone (IIRC it is pretty easy to obtain) which helps bolster Absol's offenses and Speed. Ice Beam is a detour but Absol is one of the better Pokemon to use it. Magic Bounce is beautiful against Phoebe and Wallace too - and Steven to an extent since Spikes being bounced back is nice.

Hell I will even test it if people want. Absol seems hella fun to use and definitely a good contender for A. Durability is not its ace of spades, but a good movepool and an awesome Mega help Absol out.

Agreed on A for Absol. Have we discussed Pinsir and Meditite before as well? These potential Megas seem like good contenders for A tier as well. Not so sure about Banette however.

Nitpicking but this statement is quite false. A neutral 16 Attack IV Zubat at Level 16 can 2HKO Brawly's Pokémon even through Bulk Up (there is a chance of survival however...) and Zubat itself is highly likely to survive two Knock Offs (For reference, a flawless neutral uninvested Level 16 Ralts survives the 2HKO from an unboosted Knock Off and Zubat is bulkier physically). For reference, Brawly's Pokémon are 20 IV's across the board and have no EV investment. And this is assuming no investment into Zubat. Zubat certainly does not easily lose the Brawly matchup at an even level like you claim to do based off simple damage calcs unless I miscalculated something.

I wasn't necessarily suggesting that Zubat matches Brawley's Pokemon in level (you can't do the Granite Cave portion of the game pre-Brawley this time after all), but these statistics are acute and very much needed in the discussion. Could you pass me a link of the page where one could run such calculations conveniently? I knew where to find it during one of the last tier discussions, possibly X/Y, but didn't bookmark it and now I don't remember where to get it anymore.

Do you happen to know where the information on gym leaders' / important trainers' Pokemon IVs/EVs can be found while we're at it? I don't think I've seen it accessible even for the early games which should be far more hackable.

The point I was making is Zubat should still be well-prepared for Brawley and can't walk in with its 4x resistance casually expecting to win with ease. One Bulk Up on one turn, and a potion two turns later and then it's hard to say who has the advantage anymore - and I know Zubat quite as well as the Pokemon who constantly fails to win in expected favourable matchups. So if I were to judge Zubat's performance in the second gym, I'd be a 4/5 or a 3.5/5 but definitely not the perfect score, that quad-resistance considered.

There is a Dawn Stone hidden outside of Sea Mauville by the sign, so Gallade should move up a few tiers (B maybe?).

Still disappointing that it doesn't arrive in time for Norman though.

I just went ahead and checked - is it supposed to be on an island with the sign about Team Magma? I certainly have not picked a Dawn Stone on this file before, nor have I used one, so it's either Alpha Sapphire exclusive or you got something wrong there, and I have a feeling it's the latter in this one case. Ran around with the Dowsing Machine and found zilch.

 

[zomigi]

Yeah, I checked and only have the one dawn stone, so I must have mixed up something. There is some hidden item around, and either it was some stone I mixed up after seeing the word stone or I mixed it up with some stone (also not a dawn stone) that I'd just found elsewhere before flying to Sea Mauville.

 

[Stellar]

Serebii lists it as a "possible gift when you defeat Mysterious Sisters Scall & Ion in a rematch" in Sea Mauville. Perhaps you got it from them?

 

[IOS]

We've also been more sceptical towards setting up strategies in tier discussions in the recent threads. Gyarados might be able to consistently set up and sweet an entire team, but you're spending so many turns doing the setup (as a rule) that you might have as well just had individual members of your team take on select targets among the opposition. A good enough team can achieve just that, thus letting you spend less turns doing it.

Set is a lot faster than shift.

• The shift prompt comes up even when you don't need to switch (I would estimate that switching isn't necessary in at least 80-90% of the battles in the game)
• Setting up typically is only a turn or two, which takes about as long as switching once in a battle. Switching twice in a battle is slower.

 

[Colonel M]

For now we'll just dismiss Dawn Stone. Rematches are something I haven't investigated much into so I don't know the chances of getting the item (or when you can):

My issue is that its typing is not particularly impressive (good offensively, but water and grass are redundant against all the rocks and grounds for instance; mediocre defensively with you losing resistances on both ends) and the typing is just about all that's actually above average about the Lotad line.

You say that Lotad has improved since RSE, but the improvement is minor - it got some STAB moves via level-up and TM. It also suffered some negative changes - Nature Power coming later (via TM and not learnt at such an early level) and Ice Beam being a very late and optional TM. It gets Power-up Punch but nothing worth pointing out as far as moves PuP powers up go. No Leaf Blade or anything of the kind; just a late Waterfall when you don't need it as much anymore.

The fact that you have the underwhelming Lombre form to be stuck with until you're done with 7 out of the game's 8 gyms is a big deal and makes its presence in S-tier unbelievable to the point of being surreal for me, but let's assume we are patient enough to baby it all that long... What for? Ludicolo's 70/90/70 offence? What is good about it?

Water and Grass isn't very redundant. Remember - Fire-types are still somewhat prominent and they even exist in a gym. Water is still fairly effective in neutral coverage as well as Grass is rather easy to resist. Treecko also has a few more vulnerabilities too since Treecko doesn't take neutral damage from Fire-type attacks, although Grass-type attacks are what Treecko resists and such.

Nature Power loss is so-so. It would be a nice power spike but when it comes it comes I guess.

A lot of trainers use one (often quite strong) Pokemon. Slaking's ability to switch into one tough mon during an important battle and OHKO, just to switch to somebody else (maybe until next turn), is a very valuable asset. Silk Scarf-powered Giga Impact kills so many durable Pokemon in one single attack.

Most of the time a team doesn't really need cop-outs of an OHKO. Slaking is usually detrimental at this point - few times will you really need a Pokemon that OHKOes right away. Most E4 Pokemon - barring Dusclops for Phoebe, usually are set-up bait for the majority of Pokemon. I can at least agree we can consider getting it out of E.

I'd also like to point out that very few Pokemon come close to soloing the game. In X/Y, the Charizard Megas were arguably the champions of that. Slaking having consistent OHKO potential keeps it relevant to the party as soon as it evolves, and Vigoroth is a highly usable second tier until then.

I disagree. I could name a plethora of Pokemon that do fine in soloing the game once they're at least up there. Gyarados almost does it single-handed barring Norman and when it's a Magikarp. Even Charmander has eh periods for a while where Ember / Dragon Rage can't completely cut through things. I think I would be more impressed with Slaking if it wasn't a detriment every other turn. OHKOing a Pokemon is nice, but so is KOing 6 Pokemon almost simultaneously after some setup.

We've also been more sceptical towards setting up strategies in tier discussions in the recent threads. Gyarados might be able to consistently set up and sweet an entire team, but you're spending so many turns doing the setup (as a rule) that you might have as well just had individual members of your team take on select targets among the opposition. A good enough team can achieve just that, thus letting you spend less turns doing it.

Not necessarily. There are many Pokemon that can withstand hits - even those SE. I've mentioned Phoebe multiple times as an example but even Glacia has Pokemon that can withstand a hit. Most of the time you're probably taking a little less time setting up a Dragon Dance (or two) and then sweeping the entire party. Nevermind there are some Pokemon Slaking actually misses OHKOes on - Skarmory and Aggron always have Sturdy and are impossible to OHKO. I would actually be impressed if Slaking can OHKO other Pokemon like Cradily and even Phoebe's Pokemon. Just an example - a Level 50 Slaking against Dusclops can fail to OHKO Dusclops with Night Slash and Black Glasses equipped. It obviously will fail on Dusknoir. Sure Dusclops might not do crap back to Slaking for example, but Pokemon that 2HKO naturally have the advantage over Slaking.

I also want to point out that there actually is a very real possibility of a rather large level gap - I entered the Elite 4 with 5 Pokemon (one was Glalie from the Demo so it had boosted EXP and barely mattered because I didn't pick it up until Gym 8) and my team wasn't really getting up towards Level 45-47 even entering the Elite 4. The levels vary from 50s to Level 59. You can also refer to my colleague IOS about the penalties that Slaking sometimes puts in terms of time as well.

The status of Gyarados has been more or less the same since DPPt IMHO; no significant changes in its utility since then. It's as spectacular as always when trained, and a good setup sweeper, but that switching period hurts it.

A Mega Evolution and another STAB to work with (Crunch) is a rather substantial improvement and change in utility since its arrival. The Mega actually helps overcome some of the stat discrepancy from level gaps. The switching period also can be cushioned easily - I caught Magikarp after Wattson and then proceeded to train it. It's much less of a burden for 10 levels because your team is much more capable of taking hits and dishing out damage at that point. Magikarp can easily become Gyarados right before the Move Relearner to obtain Thrash - and then it is pretty self-sufficient.

Can a case be made that Exp Share can lessen the pain of grinding up Pokemon like Slakoth/Magikarp/Abra? If all you have at that point is one other Pokemon (say, your starter), all it changes is how much switching out and in you do (you actually give the trainee less exp than you would by constant switches with the new exp mechanics)? What does everyone think?

Though I agree that a little bit of EXP Share helps (hell if we want to be serious - EXP Share is much more efficient), that unfortunately is out of my jurisdiction and is dependent on IAR and co. Were it different I would allow it - it isn't quite like Warp in Fire Emblem games (well 11). Alas...

Contributions outside of battle are valid contributions, but if it's in S-tier then it absolutely must provide combat deserving of such a high ranking (granted, the current S-tier makes Carvanha not stand out as the odd one because of some other questions mons still in). It should also take hits a bit better! Not hits that are weak or resisted, I mean, and these also really sting.

Hey man I can only justify his durability so much lol. I admit it's craptastic. I will talk to IAR, Celever, and co about it.

Yeah, I'm busy and slow, sorry about that, but I'm really surprised none of the old visitors of the tier threads have shown up to support what seems to be such an obvious argument that is much in the tradition of the tier list discussions had on the Orange Islands for the last few years.

It's cool. Shit changes. I couldn't tell you why. IOS has been feeding me some information though so I've also been looking into things like that.

A Pokemon you use for 3 gyms and drop before more challenges come in is not a Pokemon to put into A tier, especially when its special defence and speed are so low.

Rollout and Rock Polish setup strategies are very unreliable, because you lack a means to ensure good accuracy for a very long time (this time comes when Golem is best unused according to you, and I can't argue there). Your chances to land Rollout 4-5 times in a row are around 60-ish per cent; even using Focus Blast with Alakazam against physically able dark-types is a better idea (Zam would rather use Dazzling Gleam anyway, but that's beside the point). It's also terribly time-consuming to spend so much time setting up.

I don't think the comparison to Mega Mawile says anything about Golem and his myriad issues at all. Seaking and Nidoking also had the same attack stat back in RBY, does that mean they were equal? Does that mean Seaking was any good at all? I think this is the case here as well. Mega Mawile has the typing, coverage and sheer offence Geodude would dream of.

The comparison was actually because you mentioned Mega Mawile - A Pokemon that is practically nonexistent until past Norman and also has a slew of issues.

Fairy / Steel isn't bad - but it actually does rocky when it arrives. Both of its STABs, if it were to realistically get them, are NVE against Wattson. They do okay on outside trainers and some oddballs like Electrike, Meditite, and Voltorb but that's about it. Mawile is pretty dead-weight against Wattson. It also doesn't do crap to Flannery since it is even more vulnerable to Overheat than Graveler is.

You also seem to be missing some key points so I'll help outline them for you:

- Graveler (Golem) will not always be using both Rock Polish and Rollout.
- Graveler still has access to other moves (Smack Down, Rock Tomb, Magnitude, hell occasional Self-destruct).

Flannery is a good example where simply using Rollout is more advantageous. If you're deathly afraid of missing you probably could afford a X Accuracy on Turn 1 and just healing off the Overheat. I'm not saying it's a good idea; however, Graveler has the perk of bypassing Sunny Day - something that can be a nuisance for Water-types (it isn't too likely, though).

Where we do agree on Geodude is when you say it's best not used after gym 5, possibly earlier because those Overheats really hurt the weak special defence. I just happen to think that since it's used for such a short period of time it's best not used at all. All it does is make your team weaker, both at the time it is still in use and afterwards.

Like many people have attested they used Geodude even towards Gym 6 and it barely has issues against Flannery. It's faster most of the time and the only downside is maybe missing a Rollout. Graveler survives a hit from any of the Pokemon - more if they fail to have Sunny Day in play (or it isn't Numel - Numel is the only threatening one outside of Sunny Day conditions).

Graveler's Special Defense usually isn't a major problem unless you're facing, quite frankly, the wrong types of Pokemon - these include Grass- and Water-types. Koffings won't do shit to Graveler unless they get a lucky poison off. Slugma / Torkoal requires roughly two turns to even be remotely threatening to Graveler (and especially Golem). Again - Graveler is probably safe until after Winona. It can help throughout the gym and against her - there are some Pokemon it should avoid but it will be suitable versus Swellow and does okay against Altaria. I would say that it's still usable for a while even after Winona - it's just that it becomes a little more questionable as a Graveler. Golem can actually pull itself together in normal fights - it just lacks utility in some of the important fights. This is why I'm saying it could (and maybe should) be dropped off after Winona. It can certainly stay as Golem, certainly. Just don't expect miracles against Wallace for example.

You've addressed it a good deal of times, but I didn't see proof of it being good, only of it improving since RSE, which it did a little bit - it was even more mediocre on the whole back then, though. I'd agree that Lotad is more of a water-type because Bubblebeam and Surf come much sooner than their respective grass-type alternatives.

I think it's a very good idea that you'll test them side-by-side and I'm looking forward to your comparison. I'd also like to urge you to teach the Nature Power to both via TM and see what benefits it could have. I tried that with my Grovyle but I had to test so many things that the opportunities to use Nature Power weren't as numerous as I would've wanted.

Certainly. I will teach them both Hidden Power when I get the chance because they seemed to significantly buff the attack - http://serebii.net/attackdex-xy/naturepower.shtml

I think Zangoose's about the same it's always been, and still not quite an S. It's got no super-effective STAB against anything, it could be a bit faster as a rather fast sweeper with Power-up Punch/Swords Dance, and it could be better at taking hits. It might actually be worse in ORAS because it had Swords Dance earlier in RSE!

There are some things that helped improve Zangoose though - Shadow Claw is available very early and there are more viable coverage moves to choose from in comparison to RSE (Rock Tomb, said PuP, Aerial Ace, etc) and it also has no burden of using TMs really. I'll have IOS keep an eye on my Zangoose player and see what he has to say. At least Immunity prevents poison wear-down at the least.

Agreed on A for Absol. Have we discussed Pinsir and Meditite before as well? These potential Megas seem like good contenders for A tier as well. Not so sure about Banette however.

I haven't, but we can run through them pretty quick:

- Pinsir A is okay. The only problem is that it doesn't have Return so it has to rely on Facade until it is available. Even then I'm not sure it would quite be max happiness. Swords Dance boosted Facade / X-Scissor / Earthquake should run down the majority of trainers from when it arrives, though. Even the clutch bosses. Could still see it being B, but I lean towards it being limbo between the tiers.
- Meditite is pretty likely A. It has its STAB Fighting-type move and Huge Power requires almost no set-up. Its durability as Meditite is fixed through Eviolite which is available right near it. Hi Jump Kick is also available at Level 28 - right around the corner. Medicham has its other clutch moves too including Zen Headbutt and the elemental punches.

The only real downside I see to Meditite, aside from late arrival, is the evolution is pretty late.

Whoever ran with these two - definitely give some input.

I wasn't necessarily suggesting that Zubat matches Brawley's Pokemon in level (you can't do the Granite Cave portion of the game pre-Brawley this time after all), but these statistics are acute and very much needed in the discussion. Could you pass me a link of the page where one could run such calculations conveniently? I knew where to find it during one of the last tier discussions, possibly X/Y, but didn't bookmark it and now I don't remember where to get it anymore.

https://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/

You will have to make some adjustments and also need to possibly "create" attacks (for example you won't see moves like Slash, which isn't used competitively whatsoever, in there). Anyway assuming you catch Zubat at Level 12 you have to only level it up once to obtain Wing Attack (pretty doable even through minor training). At Level 13 Zubat should 2HKO the Meditite. The worst it might face is Confusion - a possible problem, but let's remember the trainers aren't always in tip top shape of intellect. You can conveniently buy Soda Pops if necessary or Potions to help get through it.

I honestly don't see Zubat beyond B because outside of Brawly it's just... okay. STAB Wing Attack isn't bad and as Golbat it doesn't do too shabby. It learns a physical Poison-type move pretty early - which actually is nice for Golbat. Venoshock is a nice STAB move to support Poison-type attacks and it hits hard. Once a Crobat you have STAB Cross Poison through move relearner too and Acrobatics is only a couple levels more than before or available after Norman. It has some good moments versus some Pokemon, but it doesn't have an important fight where it really stands out. I guess if we want to be technical it can X-Scissor through some of Sydney's Pokemon and Acrobatics / Cross Poison through Shiftry / Cacturne / Sharpedo but honestly it's about the grasp of the straw.

I'm not calling Zubat bad - I just question its role on a team aside from "I pubstomp some trainers and occasional Pokemon and that's about it". I can at least name some advantages for Ludicolo for example.

Do you happen to know where the information on gym leaders' / important trainers' Pokemon IVs/EVs can be found while we're at it? I don't think I've seen it accessible even for the early games which should be far more hackable.

It's how it always is within the game - gym leaders' and important trainers usually have their IVs at 20 all across the board. There are some exceptions though. Elite 4 Members usually have 25 and Steven has 30. Here's a reference guide for it that was datamined before the game was released:

http://pastebin.com/dXJ5fyEm

Credits to the people who found it.

The point I was making is Zubat should still be well-prepared for Brawley and can't walk in with its 4x resistance casually expecting to win with ease. One Bulk Up on one turn, and a potion two turns later and then it's hard to say who has the advantage anymore - and I know Zubat quite as well as the Pokemon who constantly fails to win in expected favourable matchups. So if I were to judge Zubat's performance in the second gym, I'd be a 4/5 or a 3.5/5 but definitely not the perfect score, that quad-resistance considered.

It usually has a more favorable match-up than many Pokemon surrounding it. Dustox and Beautifly are about the only other two that quadruple resist Brawly's Fighting-type attacks (also Ralts but Ralts has an actual future...). Tailow has more Attack and potential Guts (doubtful if you can really get it to activate though barring maybe the Tentacool near Brawly's gym) but its durability is slightly worse in comparison to Zubat (40 HP | 30 Def for Tailow vs 40 | 35 for Zubat). The best Pokemon, ironically for being bashed so goddamn much, is usually Ralts because it bypasses Meditite's Psychic-typing with STAB Fairy and usually withstands hits pretty well. The AI is sometimes dumb enough to just try to set up Bulk Up on Ralts - conveniently what Makuhita did since somehow Machop blew up in one hit (might've been two).

=====

Beyond that, I will continue with my discussion on both Treecko and Lotad here:

Treecko has a slight advantage up until Bubble arrives for Lotad - then it somewhat perks more in favor for Lotad. This may change when Mega Drain arrives. To note, though, I was Level 12 with both Lotad and Treecko up to Roxanne (Poochyena was Level 11). Mega Drain takes a little more favoritism as does Lombre but we shall see the discrepancy of holding both back on their evolutions. Though it seems to favor Treecko more Lotad does enjoy having Mega Drain to hit more Pokemon and grabs Mega Drain a little sooner.

So Treecko did work. Lotad did end up assisting though because Nosepass threatened a 3HKO on my Treecko. Let us hope that Mega Drain is worth it because these 4 levels seem like a while.

Captured Geodude and Zubat. As expected - Zubat destroyed Brawly. It seriously needs a level and a non shit nature tops. Makuhita didnt do shit to it. Zubat was only Level 13-14. You can rebattle a trainer that has a Level 13 Slakoth to train Zubat. He will usually ask for a battle once you leave and re-enter the area.

 

[atsync]

I'm just going to give my thoughts on the Pokemon I used in my run since I'm...close to done.

Swampert: I don't really have much to add about this - S-tier is non-negotiable as far as I'm concerned. It has some minor flaws (it's a bit slow at times and it lacks physical STAB moves from level-up for much of the game) but it's a pretty well-rounded Pokemon (good stats, great type, it's a starter, good match-ups) and it's honestly among the best Pokemon in the game, if not THE best.

Breloom: This is yet to be tiered apparently. Before I said that I leaned toward A, but having played with it more and having read some of the points about it here, I'm not so sure now. I think it's level-up movepool kinda screws it. Seed Bomb and Sky Uppercut come fairly late, and Low Sweep/Force Palm is fine when first learned but starts to lose its shine after a while. But it is obtained before the first gym, it has acceptable speed and power, and it has several good match-ups (albeit polarising overall) and is particularly nice for Team Aqua for AS players. I'm still borderline about this between A and B, but I would probably go B now mainly because I prefer to be conservative in borderline cases.

Cosplay Pikachu: B-tier is fine. It's frail as hell and it would have been nice if Light Ball was just given to you immediately, but oh well. Pikachu actually did ok in the meantime, it dropped off a bit just before Light Ball, but it picked up again nicely and having such a powerful Electric Pokemon was useful for all the late-game Water-types. I just used Belle for the whole run, perhaps there are times where changing outfits would be good for certain match-ups (e.g. Meteor Mash would be nice for the 7th gym) but I didn't bother.

Sableye: Agreeing with D-tier. Really sucks that it misses Brawly's gym now, even if it might have struggled a bit against Makuhita's Bulk Up and Knock Off. It gets some decently powerful moves from level-up and its typing is really useful thanks to its immunities. Doesn't have a huge number of strong match-ups, trolling Norman's 2nd Slaking with Detect was fun but Detect's limited PP makes it had to solo him (and it would have taken too long anyway). It does well against the 7th gym. Sableye dropped off badly after Wynona close to the point of being deadweight, thankfully Sablenite helps make up for that a bit late-game (it's pre-Cave of Origin too so that's nice). Unfortunately Sableye pretty much needs to mega-evolve for a lot of the battles it enters after that which can be problematic if you have other megas on your team like I did...

Castform: I was pleasantly surprised by this. Castform's coverage is insane: Blizzard, Fire Blast and Hydro Pump at level 35, and Ice Beam and Thunderbolt later on. I initially started with Weather Ball/Fire Blast/Hydro Pump/Hail (and yes I know Blizzard outclasses Weather Ball in Hail but I wanted something with better accuracy outside of Hail, even if it's a weak option), and later ran Ice Beam/Thunderbolt/Fire Blast/Hydro Pump. I also gave it the free Expert Belt you get from the Trick House, since Castform's super-effective coverage is so good. The fact that it comes with a guaranteed 31 Special Attack IV (albeit with a crappy Lax nature) is helpful. I found it was 1-2HKOing stuff frequently, and it wasn't being outsped or dying constantly like I was expecting. It can contribute in most match-ups simply because of its coverage - just from the remaining gyms you have Hail + Blizzard/Weather Ball for Wynona's Swellow and Altaria and Fire Blast for Skarmory, Hydro Pump for Tate and Liza, and Thunder for much of Wallace's gym.

However, having said that, I'm not sure if I can really make a strong case for an increase out of E-tier. Maybe D-tier at best. It comes kinda late (not as late as stuff like Vulpix in C-tier but still), and a lot of the stuff that Castform needs to be good requires substantial investment and/or detouring (and you really DO need Ice Beam and Thunderbolt because you're stuck with inaccurate moves otherwise). The fact that those moves aren't available quick is annoying, especially in the case of Thunderbolt (I resorted to using Thunder for the initial Water routes in the meantime and the accuracy drove me nuts). I imagine it would be missing out on several KOs without Expert Belt too, but that's hard to assess even with its Special Attack being effectively set outside of EVs. Probably not going to fight strongly for a boost for Castform (if someone was actually asking me what Pokemon to use in an efficient run Castform would be one of the LAST Pokemon I'd suggest) but I do at least think it's significantly more useful than some of the other Pokemon in E-tier.

Latias: Probably not going to be a popular opinion but honestly I really didn't think it was particularly amazing. Don't get me wrong, I think it's an excellent Pokemon. I get that its stats are excellent when it mega-evolves, but I think its initial movepool lets it down a bit. Mist Ball isn't that powerful and it has awful PP, and Dragon Breath isn't powerful either, and honestly its super-effective coverage isn't as good as it could be from just those moves. You'll be waiting a while for stronger STAB replacements too. Surf increases its coverage a bit though and Grass Knot is available a bit later (so nice for that stupid Milotic on the next route -_-), so there's that. Ice Beam and Thunderbolt too if you want to detour for them. You can pretty much mix-and-match for each gym/elite 4 battle so yeah. It's great in the long run, but could be better when initially obtained...

Actually, in some ways I see Lati@s as being somewhat similar to Mega Gengar in XY, another powerful mega evolving Pokemon that is obtained late. Gengar ended up in A-tier rather than S. Might not be a fair comparison if looking just on availability though since relatively speaking Gengar is obtained later in XY than Lati@s is obtained in ORAS and Gengar isn't given to you effectively for free either, and I never really used Gengar anyway so I can't really judge how the power compares. I guess if others can vouch for it though I'm fine with Latias in S. Even with what I said above (which is obviously purely anecdotal and based on a run that wasn't strictly "efficient"), I kinda feel like using Lati@s would be near mandatory just because of how convenient it is to obtain, among other reasons (and to be honest it was nice that it learned Surf just so I didn't have to load Swampert with Water HMs!).

 

[Colonel M]

So after more thinking and the like:

- We probably should consider if we are going to punish a Pokemon if they go past a certain point or not.

Personally Im against this but I also concede that Fire Emblem, a game I constantly reference for tier list philosophy, is somewhat different from Pokemon. This actually is a little more relevant for Graveler than anyone. Golem usually is strong enough to carry on.

With that said, these are my current thoughts:

- Lotad should not wait for Mega Drain. Honestly Bubble will carry you through most Pokemon and sometimes it is more advantageous than STAB Grass is. I still stand that STAB Grass is pretty mediocre, though. In most cases STAB Water is superior in later routes when Pokemon like Numel show up. Lombre is also a good boost in stats so consider that as well.

That being said, I will concede it to B after more thought process and knowing when the Water Stone is now available. Before Lucchini gets too ecstatic - the real reason it is dropping is because of Water Stone's later availability. That being said there is truth that a trainer does give you a Water Stone. I will see the chances of obtaining one throughout the story.

- The Treecko Hype Train <tm> has a little justification. However, something I really want to point out is that I dread carrying this thing as a Treecko for Giga Drain. Treecko has okay offense but its durability, physically defensive, is absolute garbage. I actually had to team up Lotad and Treecko to take down Roxanne because Treecko was in danger of being KOed by Nosepass after two Rock Tombs. And do not even try to pit Treecko against Brawly - for shits and giggles I went against a Sailor who had a Machop and, using Treecko, I was having a hard time killing it while Low Sweep was doing work on Treecko.

For taking on Roxanne, as far as Grass-types, I think the order I would rank all of them is Shroomish > Lombre > Treecko > Nuzleaf. Nuzleaf definitely falls last because of how Razor Leaf targets Geodude and Nosepass's Defense stat. I also will concede another point - Wingull only does so-so in the gym since Rock Tomb is a huge threat to poor Wingull. Poor Jontron - Water bird only so strongth before it becomes the magnificent Pelistorm.

- I think Zubat is pretty B tier. Maybe C if you count it only excels in one major battle but to be fair - Zubat is probably one of the best Pokemon for it. STAB Wing Attack shrekt Machop and Makuhita and they really couldnt do much to strongth Zubat. Considering Beautifly and Dustox require ass leveling - Zubat is the best bang for your buck against Brawly. Absolutely bar none.

- Shroomish in B instead of A... hmm...

...I think one thing that helps Breloom stay up there, though, is Swords Dance and Bulk Up are infinite in usage. Swords Dance is great under normal circumstances and should help STAB Low Sweep plow through Pokemon. Bulk Up is good for trainers like Norman who are a pain in the ass to survive against and you need to actually set up to bypass actual threats (thank God Effect Spore is effective against Norman now since Facade is missing from action). It is true that STAB Seed Bomb is kind of late though and Low Sweep / Sky Uppercut become rather mediocre in base power.

Tl; dr version:

- Lotad B
- Graveler B
- Treecko still feels soso.

 

[Agonist]

but disregarding that in honor of the OP, it does take a bit to get a Dark STAB (Feint Attack at 24)

Teach it Thief at Slateport, far more useful than Feint Attack imo, since you can steal items and shit during your run and it has the same BP and PP. Mine actually carried Thief during the entire run, and it worked fine, KOing the stuff you'd use a Dark move on.

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Teach it Thief at Slateport, far more useful than Feint Attack imo, since you can steal items and shit during your run and it has the same BP and PP. Mine actually carried Thief during the entire run, and it worked fine, KOing the stuff you'd use a Dark move on.

Oh, I must of missed Thief then. Yeah, that would of been a ton better. Love you, studmuffin.

 

[Spenstar]

Heard something about Sableye being locked until after Brawly. Is this true for all mons you get in that area, like Makuhita if you don't want to do the in-game trade?

 

[Its_A_Random]

Heard something about Sableye being locked until after Brawly. Is this true for all mons you get in that area, like Makuhita if you don't want to do the in-game trade?

You can still get Makuhita / Zubat / Geodude / Abra beforehand.

 

[Spenstar]

You can still get Makuhita / Zubat / Geodude / Abra beforehand.

Great to know. (again, sorry I'm not any more help than questions) I'm planning on catching Makuhita and getting before the gym helps a LOT compared to after

 

[zomigi]

Since Exp. Share has had a few recent mentions, I wanted to chip in my own two cents. IMO tiering around Exp. Share being disabled is just not representative of efficient play at all. Obviously maximum efficiency would dictate that it be enabled, and this presumably would allow for skipping trainer battles and forgoing grinding against wild Pokemon. While the levels resulting from this should be fairly well simulated by play with Exp. Share off, Exp. Share distributing the same amount of experience to all Pokemon in the party (that did not participate in battle) dramatically changes the level dynamics of the party. In particular, this lessens the opportunity cost of using Pokemon who are only situationally useful or whose usefulness will peter out later in the game, and it also allows Pokemon such as Abra and Magikarp to be easily brought through their weaker phases. This is definitely a significant change in the game, though admittedly not so much as something like Warpskipping in FE11.

Of course, as currently phrased, the rules do not explicitly say Exp. Share must be disabled--rather that in tiering we want an accurate reflection of performance that is not reflective of overleveling. So with that in mind, I suppose my earlier words are really just a long-winded way of arguing that we should take Exp. Share into consideration when tiering things like Abra.

Another question: are we taking into account O-Powers? They're almost all easily obtained immediately in Mauville, and can be used to make important battles much easier, as even a single stage in an offensive stat is a huge boost (especially when soloing). Also, I don't think tough battles are all that frequent, so having energy for at least one O-Power to be used should be realistic for when you would want to use O-Powers.

 

[FMD]

Exp. Share is undeniably efficient. I don't believe anybody could manage to argue otherwise. That is not the issue. Taking Exp. Share into account, Pokemon that cannot support themselves can now be supported cost-free by the other team members. Carrying a Pokemon that cannot contribute to the team is intrinsically inefficient regardless of whether there is a way to support them or not. Exp. Share shouldn't be used as a justification to use a—at the time—worthless Pokemon that contributes nothing by saying that it will become useful later. It's no different than babying the Pokemon normally, it's just faster. If a Pokemon levels slowly compared to another Pokemon, it will still level slowly compared to that Pokemon if Exp. Share is turned on. If a Pokemon contributes nothing when Exp. Share is off, it will be contributing six times as much nothing as before.

 

[Karxrida]

I believe the EXP Share isn't taken into account because it throws all semblance of difficulty out of the window. It's a massive game breaker for the story mode and defeats the purpose of these tiers when it lets you just overlevel and overpower everything.

 

[Antihaxxer]

I always use Exp Share on my first run because I like to evolve all my Pokemon fast and discover the world, and I totally agree, let's not use Exp Share at all ... I just beat Wynona without any real grinding and I'm already level 52 with 4 pokemon (+2 pokemon taking experience for completing the Dex)