Ladder STABmons (the old one)

[xJownage]

Calc me a +2 Digger's Precipice Blades against MegaBro, please. Plus, I love how you treat Sableye as if it's niche. If you haven't noticed, it's pretty much ~75% of the meta's stall support.

And please don't say 'x Mon can help y Mon. Hence y is broken'. If y Mon needs help, then it probably isn't as good as you think.

No, but having a mon that catches 75% of the tier on one set AND can beat normal counters by being versatile does make y broken. X + Y is broken isn't my argument, its that it walls such a significant portion of the tier that it limits teambuilding tremendously, and makes the stall archetype absurdly easy to win with on a CONSISTENT basis. Its not that x + y is broken, its that x makes teambuilding so difficult, while it also makes x's team almost automatic.

Besides possibly uncompetitive, it fits similarly to the way that mega gengar was broken in ubers.

Okay, so now I will elaborate what is wrong with Shadow Tag.

Yes, Shadow Tag has very effective users and is extremely powerful
Yes, Shadow Tag is overcentralizing
Yes, Shadow Tag invalidates, to an extent, some team archetypes
Yes, Shadow Tag lets lesser players beat better players
Yes, Shadow Tag massively amplifies the team matchup factor
Yes, a solid team with Shadow Tag is overall better than a solid team without Shadow Tag

Effective user unrelated blah blah blah.
Overcentralizing: restricting for teambuilding, makes offense extremely difficult

Therefore invalidating a team archetype to an extent

Its massive bulk can let lesser players beat better ones because of how easy it is to use.

Massively amplifies team matchup (offense without thundy or explosion/ss diggersby or w/e)

A solid team with megabro is better than a solid team without megabro.

While the argument for shadow tag is rooted in uncompetitiveness, these factors all being checked make a mon terribly broken, almost destructively so.

 

[canno]

Shell Smash Diggers run considerable amount of HP. Just saying.

doesn't make a difference

0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. -1 252 HP / 0 SpD Diggersby: 404-476 (108 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[DinaIsha]

Requesting everyone to take a look at my STABmons RMT here, now updated with old and new Replays and new moveset for ORAS.

Of course, this is self-advertising and abuse of power. What else do you think it is?

 

[skies]

Slowbronite is not banned!
​

Our final suspect test it complete, with a vote of 1 Ban / 5 DNB / 1 Abstain. The council had a heavy debate about this one but we all came to the conclusion that Mega Slowbro was not banned because of several glaring flaws. Firstly, offensive pressure very much influenced Slowbro and its ability to setup. Furthermore, it was not able to effectively set up and that left it quite easily set up on in return and weak in general. Though Mega Slowbro has immense bulk, it was not unbreakable, and was able to be 2HKOed by a variety of Pokemon. 4MSS was another large factor of Slowbro not being banned, it just couldn't run everything and although it did have all the tools to effectively break through all of its counters, it just couldn't. For these reasons, Slowbronite is remaining able to be used!

Politely tagging The Immortal so he knows that there will be no ban to implement this time around!

 

[w0rd]

easily set up on in return and weak in general​

Is this a joke? What "easily sets up on" mega Slowbro? And how is a higher special attack than Keldeo weak? Lmao

It's such a shame to see a great metagame ruined by a council where most members do not understand the meta (I was told that Diggersby, Heatran and Skarmory were Mega Slowbro checks....) AND/OR do not even play the meta.

Also here are my teams if anybody wants them, since I'm done playing this metagame
http://pastebin.com/dAfbZ5k5

 

[skies]

Is this a joke? What "easily sets up on" mega Slowbro? And how is a higher special attack than Keldeo weak? Lmao

Keldeo often invests in SpA, Slowbro did not; furthermore, I'm talking about how weak Stored Power is before it boosts and you can't deny it is.

 

[w0rd]

Keldeo is forced to run Timid, Slowbro can go Modest if needed. And most sets do not even run Stored Power, so why judge it by that?

 

[EV]

Is this a joke? What "easily sets up on" mega Slowbro? And how is a higher special attack than Keldeo weak? Lmao

Sub+DD Mega Gyarados is a very relevant threat that can, so long as it gets in without a Scald burn, which isn't an issue if Slowbro opts for Origin Pulse.

 

[w0rd]

Sub+DD Mega Gyarados is a very relevant threat that can, so long as it gets in without a Scald burn, which isn't an issue if Slowbro opts for Origin Pulse.

One very specific set is hardly a sound argument. Calm Mind Sableye sets up all over Mega Kangaskhan, Curse Gastrodon sets up all over Kyogre, Geomancy Dedenne sets up on Zekrom. Should we unban them too?

 

[EV]

w0rd Gyarados is relevant whereas those examples you provided are not.

Greninja can also Dark Void, Taunt, etc a Slowbro, setup if it wants or just hit it hard with Night Daze/Dark Pulse.

Thundurus can also Taunt, doesn't care about burns, has Electric STAB, and recovery with Oblivion Wing.

Those are two more very relevant threats that can deal with MegaBro.

 

[w0rd]

Calm Mind Mega Sableye is very relevant actually...

And that's two things that can beat Mega Slowbro, compared to A LOT more things that just lose to it. Plus you cannot even safely switch them in. If it Thunder Waves on your Greninja switch or Ice Beam/Scalds on your Thundurus switch, you're kind of screwed. Unless of course you just happen to have a bunch more relevant threats that deal with MegaBro on your team...

 

[DinaIsha]

One very specific set is hardly a sound argument.

Actually, given the size of the tier at least 2-3 pokes/sets form a very good argument (I see TEG has already mentioned some). And especially more so when all of them can set up and threaten to sweep your team while you try to score a burn or set up yourself.

 

[w0rd]

Actually, given the size of the tier at least 2 pokes/sets form a very good argument. And especially more so when all of them can set up and threaten to sweep your team while you try to score a burn or set up yourself.

At least 2 sets is not a good argument, because it's unreasonable to expect players to use them on every team. Heavily restricted teambuilding is not a sign of a healthy metagame.

And the player using Mega Slowbro is not just going to stay in and let you set up on them if they know it's not a favorable match-up...

 

[EV]

Calm Mind Mega Sableye is very relevant actually...

And that's two things that can beat Mega Slowbro, compared to A LOT more things that just lose to it. Plus you cannot even safely switch them in. If it Thunder Waves on your Greninja switch or Ice Beam/Scalds on your Thundurus switch, you're kind of screwed. Unless of course you just happen to have a bunch more relevant threats that deal with MegaBro on your team...

I can give you more ... Heart Swap, stallbreakers with Taunt/Status, the Lati@s, phazing.

If my Cacturne example I gave in the council convo was our only legit check to this thing (and technically it's not due to Fire Blast/Ice Beam, but whatever) then I'd be inclined to vote ban. But there are relevant things that deal with Slowbro. Hell, Perish Trap it. Chansey and Azumarill do that in their sleep and they are used quite frequently. And like with other setup Pokemon, Destiny Bond is a legitimate option if you can't take it down. Sableye says hi.

And the player using Mega Slowbro is not just going to stay in and let you set up on them if they know it's not a favorable match-up...

True, but the opponent also won't (or shouldn't) let their MegaBro checks die either, so if MegaBro switches out, so will they.

 

[DinaIsha]

At least 2 sets is not a good argument, because it's unreasonable to expect players to use them on every team. Heavily restricted teambuilding is not a sign of a healthy metagame.

And the player using Mega Slowbro is not just going to stay in and let you set up on them if they know it's not a favorable match-up...

A lot of teams use Sableye because it's the only way to check many threats. But Sableye isn't banned even though it's 'centralizing' (I think TEG made a clear point about why it won't be banned, somewhere earlier in the thread), because with right plays, it can be beaten.

Thundurus is a solid counter and doesn't need to go out of its way to do so. It can run Taunt/Thunderbolt/Oblivion Wing/Filler, a set it usually runs and beat MegaBro as well as Chansey, something you have consistently claimed can support MegaBro to become broken.

Gyarados is also another example. A burn will be a huge problem, yes, but what if you don't burn for two turns that the Gyarados sets up DD and wrecks face? Or worse, put you to sleep and then DD? It's not weird for Gyarados to have Dragon Dance/Knock Off/Waterfall/Taunt or DVoid.

As I've always said, the Meta will find it difficult to adapt at first. Then with time, well, it has to. The council vote was really based on how many things can deal with it as opposed to how broken it may be.

 

[Seraph's Fire]

I don't see why we're still arguing about this--the vote is over, nothing is going to change about the decision. Let's drop it and move on. I know I'm not very involved in the meta right now (real life issues rip) but this isn't worth this much fuss.

 

[DinaIsha]

I think we're arguing because word was a Frontier and we owe it to him to hear him out and try to set this down as properly as we can, a courtesy he hasn't reciprocated sadly.

 

[Ghoul King]

Not as caustic as w0rd, but I'm unconvinced myself. The biggest thing I'm seeing here with Mega Slowbro is that it can do so many different things, and there's not a uniform counter to all of them, and yet it can cripple or KO Pokemon if you bring in the wrong counter. People aren't even covering really silly things, like how it could use Power Trick and Water Shuriken/Aqua Jet to become a problematic Physical sweeper, at which point all kinds of counters predicated on the idea that it's a Special set-up sweeper come in expecting to counter and die or are forced to give it a free turn as they switch back out, and yet it can still do a variety of things, just within the non-silly things people are discussing. The fact that so many of its builds are set-up sweepers strikes me as worrying more for the fact that there's several different ways it can become an out of control monster if you guess wrong than for the efficiency of any given build in specific. Wasn't Aegislash banned from Standard primarily because it was both unpredictable and prone to punishing wrong guesses so badly? That sounds like STABmons Mega Slowbro to me, except multiple Mega Slowbro builds can sweep an enemy team on their own rather than just wiping one Pokemon on the enemy team in the process of trying to scout it out/guess at a counter.

Not in agreement with w0rd's harshness, but I'm not feeling this decision, and I'm particularly stunned at having 5 out of 7 people agreeing on "don't ban" vs 1 "ban" and 1 "abstain".

 

[w0rd]

I can give you more ... Heart Swap, stallbreakers with Taunt/Status, the Lati@s, phazing.

If my Cacturne example I gave in the council convo was our only legit check to this thing (and technically it's not due to Fire Blast/Ice Beam, but whatever) then I'd be inclined to vote ban. But there are relevant things that deal with Slowbro. Hell, Perish Trap it. Chansey and Azumarill do that in their sleep and they are used quite frequently. And like with other setup Pokemon, Destiny Bond is a legitimate option if you can't take it down. Sableye says hi.

True, but the opponent also won't (or shouldn't) let their MegaBro checks die either, so if MegaBro switches out, so will they.

Heart Swap is a gimmick (funny, how no one used it before) and does not even help against non-set up sets (funny how people seem to forget that Mega Slowbro has a higher special attack stat then Keldeo...)

Taunt is not going to help if Slowbro stays in its base form and keep Oblivious (you don't have to mega evolve straight away you know...)

All phasing does is delay set up sets...

If you use PerishTrap Chansey, that means you only have one moveslot free (Mean Look/Perish Song/Recover/???) so you're left with a pokemon that is useless against the majority of the metagame. Let's be real, you aren't trapping much else.

If you're seriously considering Destiny Bond as your best chance at beating a specific pokemon, then that suggests a bigger problem..

A lot of teams use Sableye because it's the only way to check many threats. But Sableye isn't banned even though it's 'centralizing' (I think TEG made a clear point about why it won't be banned, somewhere earlier in the thread), because with right plays, it can be beaten.

Thundurus is a solid counter and doesn't need to go out of its way to do so. It can run Taunt/Thunderbolt/Oblivion Wing/Filler, a set it usually runs and beat MegaBro as well as Chansey, something you have consistently claimed can support MegaBro to become broken.

Gyarados is also another example. A burn will be a huge problem, yes, but what if you don't burn for two turns that the Gyarados sets up DD and wrecks face? Or worse, put you to sleep and then DD? It's not weird for Gyarados to have Dragon Dance/Knock Off/Waterfall/Taunt or DVoid.

As I've always said, the Meta will find it difficult to adapt at first. Then with time, well, it has to. The council vote was really based on how many things can deal with it as opposed to how broken it may be.

A lot of teams use Sableye because they don't know any better, Sabelye is far from being "the only way to check many threats". Sableye is not even close to being centralising or difficult to beat.

I never "consisently claimed" that Chansey makes Mega Slowbro broken. I said once that it is an example of how easy it is to use team mates to cover Mega Slowbro's few flaws.

And why would Slowbro stay in and try and burn Gyarados? It's only staying in if it has Grass Knot (which is not unrealistic)..

I still haven't heard a good argument from any of the council members on this issue... How sad

As I've always said, the Meta will find it difficult to adapt at first. Then with time, well, it has to. The council vote was really based on how many things can deal with it as opposed to how broken it may be.

It's amusing how you're always talking about how the metagame has to adapt, but you're still telling using the same ONE stall (lol) team

 

[DinaIsha]

It's amusing how you're always talking about how the metagame has to adapt, but you're still telling using the same ONE stall (lol) team

I don't see how that's relevant to adapting. If I find something uncounterable by any of my team, I will 'adapt', change moveset or change an entire mon. Adapting doesn't mean dynamic change. In fact if something caused dynamic changes, that would required a ban. And MegaBro isn't causing dynamic changes any soon.

 

[EV]

I still haven't heard a good argument from any of the council members on this issue... How sad

No, you have, but you just refuse to consider them for some reason. You seem to think that adapting to a major threat is suddenly unhealthy. Should Diggersby always be the top threat in STABmons? Is that what you want?

Anyway, anymore--to borrow the phrase Ghoul King used--caustic discussion on this subject will be moderated. I'm asking everyone that feels so passionate about the suspect to stay civil and friendly.

 

[w0rd]

Adapting to the metagame means not using a team/playstyle that gets 6-0ed by Taunt Thundurus.

And MegaBro isn't causing dynamic changes any soon.

Completely false once again... As xJownage has already covered, Mega Slowbro invalidates entire teams or forces less than ideal movesets (like Pin Missile Scizor)

No, you have, but you just refuse to consider them for some reason. You seem to think that adapting to a major threat is suddenly unhealthy. Should Diggersby always be the top threat in STABmons? Is that what you want?
.

I really haven't. All I've seen is council members demonstrating a lack of understanding of the metagame. It makes no difference what the top threat is (probably isn't Diggersby anymore anyway)

 

[DinaIsha]

Adapting to the metagame means not using a team/playstyle that gets 6-0ed by Taunt Thundurus.

I don't really want to do this, but oh well. Diggersby could care less about Taunt (But it can't switch in, agreed) and of course, since the surge of Taunt, I've given my Chansey Seismic Toss. Quagsire can Toxic Thundurus on the switch or Sableye can Burn on the Switch + Parting Shot. So that plus Chansey's Milk Drink + Seismic Toss is my answer to Tauntspam Thundurus. So, that's me adapting.

Completely false once again... As xJownage has already covered, Mega Slowbro invalidates entire teams or forces less than ideal movesets (like Pin Missile Scizor)

If this proves to be true and everyone starts using MegaBro to get easy wins, I'm sure it will be Suspect Tested once more. And with the additional proof, I'm sure it will be banned. But really, the key word here is if.

 

[Throbulator36]

I feel like the council isn't handling this properly and shouldn't assume that every slowbro is 4 status moves/3 status moves+scald(which I'm not sure you're even considering that it could run scald)

Edit: also I'd like to point out a flaw in w0rd's argument. lots of pokemon invalidate entire teams including otherwise completely viable ones

 

[EV]

I feel like the council isn't handling this properly and shouldn't assume that every slowbro is 4 status moves/3 status moves+scald(which I'm not sure you're even considering that it could run scald)

Thank you but we did. I specifically mention burns in my discussions about checks/counters.

No Slowbro would run 4 status moves btw, so I'm not sure how you're concluding that's something we even considered... Taunt shuts down its Cosmic Power/Calm Mind and Slack Off shenanigans. I also don't think Slowbro should or does run 3 status+1 attack because there are too many things that could absorb Psychic or Water, so it does need coverage. The thing is, even if it runs 4 attacks (Water/Psychic/Fire Blast/Ice Beam) it's STILL walled by Mega Gyarados. Grass Knot would hurt, yes, but without a Calm Mind boost, Gyara can take it and Roost off the damage.

Slowbro needs to setup to hit hard enough, but then it struggles to hit all the things it wants.