Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[Srn]

Nominating Mega Swampert: B+ ----->>> A
This seems like a bit of a big move, but mega swampert is a huge threat. It may not be "a" as such, but may be A-. In rain it outspend all unboosted pokemon with only 156 speed evs. This allows it to run adamant, giving it extra power. It can set its own rain, and beats MSceptile 1v1 if Sceptile switches in on the rain dance. Water/Ground is great defensive typing, with a weakness only to grass, which can be eliminated through ice punch. It may take up a mega slot, but it is incredibly good in rain. Not only does it have the immunity to electric that rain teams lack, but it can hit electric types super effectively. It packs fantastic coverage with superpower, and is in general a really hard pokemon to stop. It is a lot better than a lot of the pokemon in B+. Maybe not all the way to A, but at least A-

It's very, very far from this rank, sorry. Megas swampert is simply garbage, and that is my wholehearted and unbiased opinion.
All it really does for rain teams is give a little bit of bulk and a VS absorber, latias practically does the same thing while having more offensive presence, and obv doesn't use a mega slot.
Its coverage is pretty moot when its weak as all shit, it seriously pales in power next to your LO kabu and Specs Kingdra/Omastar that are usual staples of rain teams. These fuckers can mow down defensive resists with rain boosted stabs, and mega swampert is amazingly weak next to them. 150 base attack is pathetic without an item, and that's all there is to it.

Then you have to take into account that you don't even get swift swim the turn you mega evolve, so you have to waste your great bulk taking a hit to even get swift swim up. From there, you can't really boost your attack, so you just rely on your coverage and subpar attacking prowess to pose a slight threat to offensive teams at best, which rain teams have an amazing matchup against anyways.

The only thing mega swampert really brings to rain is a t-wave immunity, or an easy way to beat thundurus. Kabu LO aqua jet pretty much massacres thundy in the rain after rocks anyways, and if it stays healthy enough then you can just sack a swift swimmer to leave your other one to mow down the rest of the team. It's simply not useful, and your mega slot is better spent on mega hera or mega gallade or mega gyara whatever anything but this piece of ass.

Lets observe just how stupidly weak it is:

Mega swampert is a pu$$y

252+ Atk Swampert Superpower vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 113-134 (37.1 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 200-236 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 214-254 (60.7 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 240-284 (79.4 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 420-496 (117.6 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Rain: 211-249 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye in Rain: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Mega Sableye's defenses)
252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Altaria: 154-182 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Meanwhile,

Kabu is lord

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 153-181 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 214-253 (52.9 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 192-229 (54.5 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 257-304 (85 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp in Rain: 269-317 (75.3 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Rain: 227-269 (57.6 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 148-175 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye in Rain: 160-188 (52.6 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Mega sableye defense)
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Altaria: 191-226 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (mega altaria stats)

As far as manual rain dance sets go, mega gyarados is 5x better of a wincon lol

Mega swampert stays B+

 

[SAVideos]

I see all these Mega-Swamperts being nominated for A- and A+ ranks. I know we've moved on to the next set of ranks, but Mega-Sceptile is vastly superior, so whichever tier Mega-Swampert gets into, Mega-Sceptile should really be placed one above. Anyways, Chesnaught should definitely move up to B+. With all the new stuff he gets in ΩRαS, he's become both a lot more bulky and a lot more offensive too. So many new toys, so little move slots.

 

[SketchUp]

I see all these Mega-Swamperts being nominated for A- and A+ ranks. I know we've moved on to the next set of ranks, but Mega-Sceptile is vastly superior, so whichever tier Mega-Swampert gets into, Mega-Sceptile should really be placed one above. Anyways, Chesnaught should definitely move up to B+. With all the new stuff he gets in ΩRαS, he's become both a lot more bulky and a lot more offensive too. So many new toys, so little move slots.

Why do you compare M-Sceptile to M-Swampert? You might also compare Rhyperior to Manaphy. They do complete other things.
Agree with moving Chesnaught up btw

 

[Cobalt314]

Lets observe just how stupidly weak it is:

Mega swampert is a pu$$y

252+ Atk Swampert Superpower vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 90-107 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 17.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 160-190 (39.6 - 47%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 172-204 (48.8 - 57.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 192-228 (63.5 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp in Rain: 202-238 (56.5 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Rain: 169-199 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 44.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 109-130 (32.6 - 38.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye in Rain: 118-141 (38.8 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (mega sableye defense)
252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Altaria: 124-146 (35.1 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (mega altaria defense)

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Uh, what Attack stat do you have on Swampert? I'm using a base 150 Attack stat, and he does more damage than you give him credit for. Also, why not just use Ice Punch on Garchomp? These are the calcs I'm getting:

Updated calcs

252+ Atk Swampert Superpower vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 113-134 (37.1 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 200-236 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 214-254 (60.7 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 240-284 (79.4 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 420-496 (117.6 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Rain: 211-249 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye in Rain: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Mega Sableye can't run Leftovers)
252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Altaria: 308-364 (87.2 - 103.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

If my Special Attack is off, feel free to ignore and even delete this post. If, however, I do carry a point, do not be so hasty as labelling a Pokémon "bad." Have a nice day.
EDIT: With these new calcs posted, as well as my personal take on Mega Swampert, I believe Mega Swampert deserves A-

 

[Cloud_Nine987]

I see all these Mega-Swamperts being nominated for A- and A+ ranks. I know we've moved on to the next set of ranks, but Mega-Sceptile is vastly superior, so whichever tier Mega-Swampert gets into, Mega-Sceptile should really be placed one above. Anyways, Chesnaught should definitely move up to B+. With all the new stuff he gets in ΩRαS, he's become both a lot more bulky and a lot more offensive too. So many new toys, so little move slots.

Yeah, Chesnaught's a bit better now that it got Seed Bomb and Drain Punch, but I think B+ is the highest it could go. Same with Breloom, they both have a nasty, nasty 4x weakness to flying, which is a really bad thing to have in this meta. I also agree with Mega Swampert raising; I was really surprised to see him so low. I mean, 100/110/110 defenses, one weakness, base 150 attack, and effectively base 140 in speed.

 

[theV8man]

It's very, very far from this rank, sorry. Megas swampert is simply garbage, and that is my wholehearted and unbiased opinion.
All it really does for rain teams is give a little bit of bulk and a VS absorber, latias practically does the same thing while having more offensive presence, and obv doesn't use a mega slot.
Its coverage is pretty moot when its weak as all shit, it seriously pales in power next to your LO kabu and Specs Kingdra/Omastar that are usual staples of rain teams. These fuckers can mow down defensive resists with rain boosted stabs, and mega swampert is amazingly weak next to them. 150 base attack is pathetic without an item, and that's all there is to it.

Then you have to take into account that you don't even get swift swim the turn you mega evolve, so you have to waste your great bulk taking a hit to even get swift swim up. From there, you can't really boost your attack, so you just rely on your coverage and subpar attacking prowess to pose a slight threat to offensive teams at best, which rain teams have an amazing matchup against anyways.

The only thing mega swampert really brings to rain is a t-wave immunity, or an easy way to beat thundurus. Kabu LO aqua jet pretty much massacres thundy in the rain after rocks anyways, and if it stays healthy enough then you can just sack a swift swimmer to leave your other one to mow down the rest of the team. It's simply not useful, and your mega slot is better spent on mega hera or mega gallade or mega gyara whatever anything but this piece of ass.

Lets observe just how stupidly weak it is:

Mega swampert is a pu$$y

252+ Atk Swampert Superpower vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 90-107 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 17.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 160-190 (39.6 - 47%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 172-204 (48.8 - 57.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 192-228 (63.5 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp in Rain: 202-238 (56.5 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Rain: 169-199 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 44.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 109-130 (32.6 - 38.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye in Rain: 118-141 (38.8 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (mega sableye defense)
252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Altaria: 124-146 (35.1 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (mega altaria defense)

Meanwhile,

Kabu is lord

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 153-181 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 214-253 (52.9 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 192-229 (54.5 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 257-304 (85 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp in Rain: 269-317 (75.3 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Rain: 227-269 (57.6 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 148-175 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye in Rain: 160-188 (52.6 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Mega sableye defense)
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Altaria: 191-226 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (mega altaria stats)

As far as manual rain dance sets go, mega gyarados is 5x better of a wincon lol

Mega swampert stays B+

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Rain teams are meant to cause massive destruction and Swampert simply fails to break past walls. On rain teams you should be using your Mega slot for something else, because as far as rain sweepers go you do not need a Mega.

 

[Srn]

Uh, what Attack stat do you have on Swampert? I'm using a base 150 Attack stat, and he does more damage than you give him credit for. Also, why not just use Ice Punch on Garchomp? These are the calcs I'm getting:

Updated calcs

252+ Atk Swampert Superpower vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 113-134 (37.1 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 200-236 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 214-254 (60.7 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 240-284 (79.4 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 420-496 (117.6 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Rain: 211-249 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye in Rain: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Mega Sableye can't run Leftovers)
252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Altaria: 308-364 (87.2 - 103.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

If my Special Attack is off, feel free to ignore and even delete this post. If, however, I do carry a point, do not be so hasty as labelling a Pokémon "bad." Have a nice day.
EDIT: With these new calcs posted, as well as my personal take on Mega Swampert, I believe Mega Swampert deserves A-

Oh lol i forgot to change swamperts attackm my bad; edited post
Ur altaria calc is wrong tho, we're obviously assuming mega

 

[TheTraininator]

Oh lol i forgot to change swamperts attackm my bad; edited post

So you were calling a 150 base attack itemless Pokemon piss weak based off the calculations of a base 110 itemless Pokemon? Didn't it seem off to you when it couldn't 2HKO a Celebi with no defensive investment?

EDIT: I also found some other points you addressed flawed. It's a long post and I initially tried to adress everything, but you repeat things several times so I'll just pick out some of your main points:

All it really does for rain teams is give a little bit of bulk and a VS absorber, latias practically does the same thing while having more offensive presence, and obv doesn't use a mega slot.

"A bit of bulk" is a huge goddamn understatement, considering the guy has better all around bulk than Mew. Heck, it's physical bulk is almost on par with Mega Scizor:

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Swampert: 234-277 (68.4 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 188-224 (66.6 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(I know that both of them tend to run more bulk, I'm just using this for the sake of comparison.)

So yeah, Mega Swampert becomes incredibly hard to deal with when you need significant damage on it to revenge it consistently. Oh, and your comparison to Latias as a Volt Switch absorber is B.S. too. Latias eats up a Volt Switch easily, sure - then your opponent switches out and retains the momentum. Mega Swampert, as well as any Ground type, completely cockblock your opponent's momentum and steals it for itself. In fact, I don't even know why we're comparing Mega Swamp to Latias at all.

Its coverage is pretty moot when its weak as all shit, it seriously pales in power next to your LO kabu and Specs Kingdra/Omastar that are usual staples of rain teams. These fuckers can mow down defensive resists with rain boosted stabs, and mega swampert is amazingly weak next to them. 150 base attack is pathetic without an item, and that's all there is to it.

Well you're completely ignoring the fact that they can all be used simultaneously on the same team. In fact, they are: Kabu and Swampert are best buddies, as Swamp eats up the Thunder Waves, Volt Switches, and powerful hits that Kabu doesn't want to take while Kabu cleans shit off that Swamp has weakened for it. Think about the MenceQuaza core of Gen 4 Ubers.

And we already addressed how you had the calcs wrong, so I'm not going to be talking about how "weak" you're calling Swampert.

Then you have to take into account that you don't even get swift swim the turn you mega evolve, so you have to waste your great bulk taking a hit to even get swift swim up.

Or you could, you know, force out something and get a free Mega. I already pointed out that it can eat a CC from Terrakion, even Life Orb variant which you don't see anymore, so most opponents should know that unless they want to lose something, that have to switch out. If they don't, sure Swamp takes a hit, but they just lost a teammate and now they have to deal with revenge killing a Pokemon that basically has the equivalence of Adamant base 150 Attack and Jolly base 150 speed.

As far as manual rain dance sets go, mega gyarados is 5x better of a wincon lol

+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 223-264 (65.3 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jirachi in Rain: 240-283 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mega Swamp is faster than +1 Gyara in rain and it's Waterfall is stronger than +1 Gyara's too. (Yes I used Jolly Gyara for a reason, it's better in this meta now that Mega Sceptile, Mega Beedrill, and Mega Lopunny exist.) It's not hard for Swamp to set up rain like Gyara would a DD and finish off weakened teams, or even healthy offensive ones.

Overall I find your analysis on Mega Swampert flawed and I feel like you have not actually tried to use it. It has amazing bulk, ludicrous speed in rain, synergizes extremely well with Pokemon on rain teams, including the Kabutops which you seem to insist outclasses it, and it is overall great for cleaning up weakened teams. A- is an obvious choice for it in my eyes.

 

[MilkyWay]

Everything that counters Greninja cannot deal enough damage on its own to be viable on offense. Porygon2 has just barely enough Sp. Attack - Greninja has 103, but it gets to hold a Life Orb, unlike Porygon2 which needs the Eviolite or else it really isn't good. RestTalk Gyarados gets walled by pretty much anything that resists water, and Umbreon can't do anything back to Greninja.

4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 149-177 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Its Foul Play has a 90% chance of 4HKOing it, which is nowhere near good enough. In fact, that's bad. Greninja's Gunk Shot makes it immune to Toxic, so when poison-type, Umbreon gets walled and worn down fast. Umbreon also isn't the best cleric just because it's weak to fighting and fairy, which are pretty common. Conk, Gallade, the rare Medicham, any kind of fighting priority, and then there's Alt, Diancie, Clef, and Sylveon to ruin its day as well. It'd be one thing if it were simply weak to the types and nothing else, but on top of it Umb can't really do much back to any of those bar Gallade and Medicham. It handles fightings better than fairies (it still doesn't handle fightings well period), which it can't handle at all. I'd say it's low D rank as well.

You forgot to take into account that greninja will be neutral to Foul Play unless it uses Dark Pulse or Low Kick.

0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 142-168 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed with Life Orb recoil)
(This is a neutral attack with Greninja having 40 attack evs and a neutral attacking nature)

Even without any defense investment, Umbreon will always avoid the 2hko from Gunk Shot after Stealth Rock.

40 Atk Life Orb Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 153-183 (38.8 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

With full defensive investment:

40 Atk Life Orb Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 113-134 (28.6 - 34%) -- 98.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery


After messing around with the calc I came up with an Umbreon set that can avoid the 3hko every time (barring crits) from any of Greninja's moves through the combination of Leftovers and Protect.


Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD
Calm Nature
- Foul Play
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic

Greninja's most powerful attack against this set is Hydro Pump and it's already been established that Umbreon can 2hko with Foul Play.

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Umbreon: 138-164 (35 - 41.6%) -- 74.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hydro Pump does a maximum of 164hp and Umbreon reaches a total hp stat of 394, meaning Leftovers will heal it 25hp per turn.

Turn 1: Greninja uses Hydro as Umbreon switches in
394-164+25=255hp
Turn 2: Umbreon uses Protect
255+25=280
Turn 3: Greninja uses Hydro, Umbreon uses Foul Play
280-164+25=141
Turn 4: Umbreon uses Protect
141+25=166
Turn 5: Greninja uses Hydro, Umbreon finishes it with Foul Play
166-164=2 then 2+25 leaves Umbreon with 27hp

In theory Umbreon could keep spamming Wish and Protect and let Greninja kill itself with Life Orb recoil too, which would also work if Greninja has Low Kick. Speaking of Low Kick Umbreon could still Toxic Greninja and severely damage it with Toxic + Protect + Life Orb recoil.

Of course Greninja could switch out on a predicted Protect, however, the Umbreon user could Toxic the switch in or switch out as well. Either way it would have done its job and prevented Greninja from coming in and getting a free kill.

Finally, for those who dont remember, Umbreon used to be ranked but became unranked due to being a worse Slyveon. That was xy and with ORAS Umbreon can handle a few more pokemon better than Sylveon. Greninja, Latios (Draco Meteor wont come close to a 2hko and Umbreon is immune to Psyshock, which defeats Sylveon), Latias, Calm Mind Mega Latias (immune to stored power), Mega Metagross, Jirachi, Bisharp, Talonflame, and Magnezone jut to name a few are handled far better by Umbreon than Sylveon. Umbreon also has a bit more physical bulk than Slyveon and can be a good switch in to status moves thanks to Synchronize. Like Syveon, Umbreon can also pack a decent punch without investing due to STAB Foul Play, which conveniently prevents physical sweepers such as Charizard X from using it as setup fodder. Finally, Umbreon can squeeze in Heal Bell or Baton Pass somewhere to support its team or keep momentum.

In conclusion, if a team struggles more with Steel types (and Greninja) than fighting types and needs a bulky wall or cleric, Umbreon would be a better option than Slyveon or Clefable while still being effective at what its meant to do. Because of this, I think it deserves D rank.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Breloom B+>A- Breloom is really good in this meta. If your opponent does't have a grass type it can just decimate teams. Its one of the best MegaSlowbro options. MegaSabeeye gets destroyed by +2 bullet seed. Bird Spam is quite uncommon also.

Celebi B+>A- As I was just saying bulky grasses are in need in this meta and celebi is really good. It can check/counter a whole slew of threats. Also has a variety of support moves, including trick room, and baton pass amongst more.

Victini B+>A- This thing is strong and nothing likes switching into it. In addition it can check Megagross, Mega altaria and mega gallade.

B Rank

Chesnaught B> B+ This is really obvious it just got so much better with its move additions and meta is quite favorable towards grass types now.

Quagsire B>B+ Having an automatic counter to any set up sweeper is great. Also it stops megaman and raikou volturn antics.

Scolipede B> B+ This things is pure evil. It can provide great spike support. Or more likely baton pass +2def/attack and speed to something leading you to get swept.

 

[ShadesOfSolomon]

Breloom B+>A- Breloom is really good in this meta. If your opponent does't have a grass type it can just decimate teams. Its one of the best MegaSlowbro options. MegaSabeeye gets destroyed by +2 bullet seed. Bird Spam is quite uncommon also.

Celebi B+>A- As I was just saying bulky grasses are in need in this meta and celebi is really good. It can check/counter a whole slew of threats. Also has a variety of support moves, including trick room, and baton pass amongst more.

Victini B+>A- This thing is strong and nothing likes switching into it. In addition it can check Megagross, Mega altaria and mega gallade.

B Rank

Chesnaught B> B+ This is really obvious it just got so much better with its move additions and meta is quite favorable towards grass types now.
Quagsire B>B+ Having an automatic counter to any set up sweeper is great. Also it stops megaman and raikou volturn antics.

Scolipede B> B+ This things is pure evil. It can provide great spike support. Or more likely baton pass +2def/attack and speed to something leading you to get swept.

Definitely agree re: Breloom. The offensive LO set is really good in the current meta, with the ability to check Megabro, revenge Megalop, and break through Megaeye, and that's made the Sash set a lot less predictable and harder to stop. None of the new metagame defining threats like to switch in against it, even if the sleep clause has already been activated, and its old sleep absorbers have tended to fall away in popularity, rendering it a lot more difficult to counter. It's at least an A- Pokemon.

 

[heritage]

Quagsire B>B+ Having an automatic counter to any set up sweeper is great. Also it stops megaman and raikou volturn antics.

Idk if Quagsire deserves to move up any further. Clefable is another Unaware user who can handle Mega Sableye a lot better and actually has some cool moves like Flamethrower and Moonblast and ways to set up like Calm Mind. Quagsire does work to stop Mega Man, but some carry HP Grass. B is perfectly fine for it since it can't do much against Offence teams except for spam Scald and pray for a Burn.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Idk if Quagsire deserves to move up any further. Clefable is another Unaware user who can handle Mega Sableye a lot better and actually has some cool moves like Flamethrower and Moonblast and ways to set up like Calm Mind. Quagsire does work to stop Mega Man, but some carry HP Grass. B is perfectly fine for it.

Tbh the last time I saw mega man use HP grass is when it was still UU to hit Swampert due to how common that is. It does a nice job of walling bisharp, mega man for the most part, dd dragonite, and some other stuff but it has so much trouble switching into wallbreakers, and mega gyarados pummels through it with mold breaker. B is fine imo.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

I still think kyub is A- material, its ability to just tear apart most balance teams, or at least their fwg core is basically unparalleled as he can do so with leftovers while others would have to have a LO, but w/e I am fine with him in B+ I guess.

Some changes I support are celebi moving up. Although I hate baton pass with every fiber of my being, I will concede that celebi is not only a legitamate user of the move, but an effective one. It is able to spread status or pass boosts against very common mons in the tier like keldeo, lati@s, rotom-w, there are many more and they vary based on the set, as it has enough bulk in either defense to be able to take on specific threats that a team may need help with. It is also a great answer to rain teams as it can wall common abusers like kabutops and kingdra, while handling the rest of them decently. I have also seen a scarf set that seems to be effective as scarf leaf storm can do alot of damage to things like mega slowbro or mega gyarados at +1, as well as do enough to be a sufficient revenge killer. All in all it just seems to be solid and a great partner in balance cores. I think starting at A- will be good.

Chesnaught needs to move up, another great mon that just walls everything and his weaknesses are very easily covered by teammates. I dont have too much to say other than he needs to move up and I see no arguments against it.

I would also like to see regular gyarados move up to at least A-, especially since there is no opportunity cost for using(except not having mega gyara I guess) and he gets the benefit of an item which can be key to getting sweep in some cases. Like lum berry to bluff mega while not fearing scalds as much, and not able to be stopped thundurus once you get a DD in. Or leftovers which can provide much needed longevity when you are trying to sub up frequently. Again not much to say I just think it is a very effective mon and you dont need a mega, and lately it seems like most physical mons tend to be megas, so gyara has that advantage.

I agree with more changes, but Ill just leave it at this for now.

Edit: I dont think mega swampert needs to move up at all, it does well against offensive teams but the whole rain playstyle does well against offensive teams, swampert isnt bringing anything new to the table there and is taking up a mega spot. Swampert finds itself even struggling to break down balance cores(dont get me started on stall cores) as it does have pretty poor attacking stats as a rain sweeper because it has no way to boost its stats and most rain sweepers have not only an item like choice specs or LO, but they get moves like swords dance or shell smash. I feel like people want him to move up just because they used him and he decimated an offensive team, but in reality any rain sweeper would have had the same results. I have a lot of experience on the ladder and have played rain multiple times and swampert has never been a problem and I have never prepared for it. It always ends up getting handled by a very generic physical wall on my team and its pretty easy to get a status on it whether it be a burn or toxic. Since I am now reformed and factor in opportunity cost I really dont see why rain needs to waste a mega on swampert when his job is accomplished nearly as well/or better with just one of the standard rain abusers.

 

[Mur]

I'm gonna support all the nominations for chesnaught to B+ as the meta has shifted in its favor plus the new toys it got from oras really help it out.
To not make this a one liner I am gonna spark a disscusion on Mega Beedrill possibly going up to B+. It's pretty damn useful on voltturn thanks to its adaptability u-turn and fantastic speed tier making it worthy of taking a slot over its competitor Mega Man. While its movepool is drier than the Sahara desert it actually has enough to provide decent coverage with stab+drill run/knock off. While it kinda sucks to be forced to run protect to ensure the mega it actually provides some utility in that you can take advantage of scarfers that try to revenge you by locking them into a move. While the weaknesses to stealth rock and priority really hurt it I dont find it enough to keep it all the way down at the same level as Mega Latios or Mrupt. I'm not too sure though i definitly can see it going either way I'd like to see what everyone else thinks on Mbee moving to B+ or staying where its at.

 

[theV8man]

While Quagsire is super useful for walling those set-up sweeper without a lot of immediate power, it struggles against quite a few of the megas this gen because a lot of them do have that power. It needs to be at completely full health to be of any use against a lot of things. There are lots of new physical megas that it just doesn't like switching into like Gallade, Lopunny, and Altaria, who all have a chance of 2HKO'ing with SR up. I can't really see it moving up yet.

 

[blaargathon]

Chesnaught is great in ORAS, and should be elevated to B+, but with the rest of the A Ranks? Ehh... Call me skeptical.

The large majority of S and A+ Rank completely dump on it, all of which are very common. Chesnaught is a great Pokemon and all, and ORAS certainly gave it more tools, but it's simply not an A Rank Pokemon in my opinion.

 

[Cogito]

So the only reason Politoed is A- is because it has Drizzle and that allows M-Swampert to set up?

 

[boltsandbombers]

So the only reason Politoed is A- is because it has Drizzle and that allows M-Swampert to set up?

And Kingdra, Kabutops, and the occasional Ludicolo. Also softening up hits for Ferrothorn / Mega Scizor, and other steel types.
So, no its not just for mega pert.

 

[AM]

So the only reason Politoed is A- is because it has Drizzle and that allows M-Swampert to set up?

No it's A- because it's the central point of a very effective playstyle which is Rain Offense, as such it can be considered A- as a support Pokemon.

 

[firehusky]

So the only reason Politoed is A- is because it has Drizzle and that allows M-Swampert to set up?

Yes, that's it only niche, but it's a really huge niche at that.

 

[Firebird101]

So the only reason Politoed is A- is because it has Drizzle and that allows M-Swampert to set up?

And Kabutops, Kingdra, Omastar and Ludicolo... it also boosts Keldeo's water moves making it even harder to deal with. And gives Ferrothorn and Scizor and any weak to fire mon for that matter added durability and makes rain offense a viable and powerful playstyle. Mega Swampert is more of a added bonus.

edit: mega ninja'd xD

 

[Jaguar360]

What do people think of Starmie now? While its defensive set seems greatly hindered by the presence of Mega Sableye in the metagame, the offensive set is really good right now.

Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam/Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- Psyshock
- Rapid Spin
It easily 2HKOs Mega Sableye with Hydro Pump or, more reliably, Dazzling Gleam and Gengar obviously dies to Hydro Pump or Psyshock. Its speed tier is also pretty good, outspeeding Mega Gallade, Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie, Gengar, the Lati twins and the musketeers. However, it also leaves it very vulnerable to the popular Greninja and its Psychic typing leaves it weak to U-turn and Pursuit users like Scarf Lando-T, Mega Beedrill, Scarf T-tar and Bisharp. That aside, it is probably the most reliable spinner at the moment with Tentacruel being its best competition at the moment and I think it is worthy of its current B+ ranking, but I could see it dropping to B as well.

 

[AM]

What do people think of Starmie now? While its defensive set seems greatly hindered by the presence of Mega Sableye in the metagame, the offensive set is really good right now.

Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam/Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- Psyshock
- Rapid Spin
It easily 2HKOs Mega Sableye with Hydro Pump or, more reliably, Dazzling Gleam and Gengar obviously dies to Hydro Pump or Psyshock. Its speed tier is also pretty good, outspeeding Mega Gallade, Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie, Gengar, the Lati twins and the musketeers. However, it also leaves it very vulnerable to the popular Greninja and its Psychic typing leaves it weak to U-turn and Pursuit users like Scarf Lando-T, Mega Beedrill, Scarf T-tar and Bisharp. That aside, it is probably the most reliable spinner at the moment with Tentacruel being its best competition at the moment and I think it is worthy of its current B+ ranking, but I could see it dropping to B as well.

I mean I don't really see how Dazzling Gleam is an answer to M-Sableye and let's consider the fact you actually do more with Hydro Pump lol. Also yeah people kept bringing up its hindrance of its Reflect Type set but I'm curious to see what you guys think of how its offensive set fairs in the meta and if it's enough to keep it at B+, or anything relevant towards a drop or raise.

 

[Jaguar360]

I mean I don't really see how Dazzling Gleam is an answer to M-Sableye and let's consider the fact you actually do more with Hydro Pump lol. Also yeah people kept bringing up its hindrance of its Reflect Type set but I'm curious to see what you guys think of how its offensive set fairs in the meta and if it's enough to keep it at B+, or anything relevant towards a drop or raise.

I only said Dazzling Gleam is more reliable because of accuracy; I acknowledged that Hydro Pump 2HKOs Sableye as well. Reflect Type is nice and all, but I don't think that Pursuit users are its biggest problem right now and while it would love to use it on Greninja, it's too slow unless it uses it on the switch, which seems kind of pointless tbh, especially since Reflect Type Starmie only carries Scald as an attack. It seems less viable than XY, but I could definitely be wrong.