Mega Manetric, Mega Sceptile, Mega Beedrill. Powerful priority users like Dragonite or Talonflame just to name a few.
I never said it wasn't. It's a great pokemon. It has a lack of counters. I get that.
I agree, except with the broken part..
On the contrary you usually have to sack something as well to get greninja in safely since it's so frail and doesn't like taking unnecessary damage unless you switch into a predicted ice shard or physic move.
Haha, arrogance isn't going to get you far here.
Many things wrong with this: Firstly,
None of those are even any good.
This is false, a check is something that CAN switch in, and threaten it out the majority of the time. A revenge killer is something that comes in after losing a pokemon, and kills or threatens the killer in return.. such as your azumaril/diggersby scenario. You got the counter thing down but just because a pokemon can take something out does not mean it's a check if it is not a reliable switch in 6/10 times. Mega-Man, beedrill, talonflame, those are all classified as revenge killers for ninja, they do threatening him out, but then what good did they do if ninja just going to switch into lando to wall them? Ninja is still alive, and now you're forced out and the cycle repeats.. which makes ninja very unhealthy for the metagame.
Not nessecarly.. see, the benefit of greninja's typing is he CAN switch into a fair ammount of pokemon. Ice shard? Greninja. Lava plume? Greninja. Psyshock, flash cannon, scald, hydropump, will-o, icy wind (Choiced keldeo will still be forced out and something hit hard), ice beam, shadow ball, dark pulse, knock off, iron head, gyro ball, bullet punch, defog, protect, fire blast, flamethrower? Greninja. and that's just what comes off the top of my head.
With a very fast meta we have at the moment, trick room is pretty good. It sucks it only lasts 5 turns but offensive teams really hate it. Stall doesn't have many problems with it but a Crawdaunt or M-Camerupt really break offense.
How is rain losing against M-Sceptile? M-Swampert, Kingdra and Kabutops on rain easily kills it because (guess what) they do not only run Waterfall or Hydro Pump which M-Sceptile does resist 4x. M-Swampert OHKOs with Ice Punch and Kingdra OHKOs with Draco Meteor.
And what if you are one of the 90% of the teams that doesn't have Bisharp? We are talking in a Greninja topic and Greninja hates Sticky Web + Sticky Web teams often have ways to prevent rapid spin (spinblockers) and defog (fast taunt, bisharp) I don't like Sticky Web either as a playstyle because the setters are pretty bad and against defensive teams it is kinda pointless but it makes Greninja less scary and it can turn your M-Gardevoir (just an example) into a very good sweeper
Greninja isn't anti-meta, Greninja is the meta. Tentacruel at 5% usage instead of 2% and more Keldeo's and Latios's who uses Scarf instead of Specs or Life Orb is anti-meta.
The "adapt or get out" argument is actually legitimate if multiple factors are limiting a playstyle, but Greninja is more or less the main reason why Offense is having a hard time right now.
I meant more so, the "adapt to (insert "broken" mon) or Get out" argument. I can adapt to an overall play style, mega, or what have you that doesn't entirely limit team building. However, as you stated, Greninja is not one of those Pokemon.
In today's metagame sticky web is pretty useless.. as I said, defoggers are everywhere, majority of the tier is levitating, balloon, slow, or flying type, now we got more magic bouncers like
Every team requires good team synergy for it to be successful. You can't just slap on 6 random pokemon you think are strong and hope to do well against it.
This is the issue I have with some people's mindset. They prefer a certain play style and feel entitled to that play style. You are basically saying I don't like Greninja because it forces me to play a different way and I don't want to play that way, which is a bad argument against greninja or any pokemon for that matter. And whether or not it's one factor or many is irrelevant. Point still stands in my opinion.
I'm not talking about "use aura sphere or faint attack to deal with double team." I'm talking about dealing with pokemon that doesn't rely on luck to be successful.. which double team does. I'm guessing the problem lies in how we view the metagame. You obviously have a different view of how the metagame should be than I do. I feel like we should keep things neutral and not favor a play style over another and let the metagame shift as we adjust to them. Pretty much how we do every time a new generation comes in. There are few exceptions of course like sway play and baton pass that severely limit skill based playing.
I've made other reasons other than "use chansey" such using viable checks/revenge killers. Switch initiative moves(volt switch and u turn) and adapting and adjusting to different play styles.
Greninja doesn't appreciate being burned or toxic'd as the residual damage will wear it down. So moves like WOW, scald, and lava plume are risky to switch into as you can easily wear it down. An example. You switch into a heatran on a lava plume, take bout 20 percent off get burned, take another 12 percent off. Your opponent protect to take another 12 percent off and you will be already down 44 percent and once you successfully attack you will lost another 10 percent from life orb. Not to mention switching into rocks and everything, you are limited your switch ins. The only moves it can switch into is a Physic type. Greninja can't really afford to switch into much as even resist moves will still be doing a decent amount of damage.
The only thing I heard out of this is "A pokemon must be sapped to kill greninja and the only way to do so is wearing greninja down" consituring you're losing heatran either way, or a switch is taking a heavy toll on damage. I'll just do the same thing I did with mawile who was broken.. healing wish, ninja back in action.
You're right, you can't just slap 6 Pokes together, just like you can't just slap one of the two things that counter this thing on your team.
I gave reason for my exceptions, which I don't think greninja falls into because you can't just lead of with greninja and hope to 2 hit KO your opponents team. You have to come in at the right time and scout your opponents team for potential scarfers, sashers or other threats. And this takes some skill.
I've mentioned all of this before and said that this is part of the game. Also asked when did checks stop being a viable way to deal with pokemon? Some situations you have to sac the most expendable pokemon to bring in a pokemon safetly. Sure you force the pokemon out, but that's the whole point of a check-to make sure your opponents pokemon don't sweep your team giving you a chance to beat it later.
I get it, I just don't think it's a good or fair argument.
Seriously, give me one mon we banned that could lead and 6-0 an opponent's team. This is a ludicrous requirement for something to be broken in OU, and I can probably find at least 3 box legendary Ubers who can't do this.
1. Most of Greninja's checks for offense fall under the following: Fast Mega, Conkeldurr, Scarfer. Take out Scarfers that can't take Ice Beam, Greninja's most spammable move, and you have a shorter list. To try and find a combination of two checks then becomes more difficult simply because packing 2 scarfers is generally a bad idea. That's not to say that it's impossible, but if the resulting pool of combinations becomes too small, that's a problem because no one wants to cookie-cut teams to run Offense.
If you don't think invalidating an entire play style is a valid argument, you need to drop this argument because you and the people you are arguing with will never come to a consensus. For the rest of us, invalidation of a play style is an Ubers-worthy offense.
You want me to go over every stupid mistake your opponent made? In addition, as I said above the general issue most players have is that when the only way to reliably check Greninja is to keep sacking crap to get a check in we have a problem. Mega Mawile could be killed if you get a free switch after sacking something. Doesn't mean that Mega Mawile wasn't broken.
Dragon Claw Latios? What is this, Gen 3?
I never said 6-0. What I meant to say is that it can't just come in on anything and proceed to sweep. You have to come in on a specific pokemon that's weak to it. Though I will admit are a lot. But it still takes skill to use.
Of course every time someone provides a replay they have to go after every little mishap. You can theorymon and provide every scenerio in which he would win. That wouldn't change the point I was trying to make in - sacking pokemon is part of the game and at times need to be done if you want to win.. suck it up. He's was playing pretty well in my opinion anyways. He wasn't like a total noob that made really obvious illogical moves.
You seriously implied it when you said "lead off with Greninja" and "2HKO your opponent's team", but whatever. Then, name one mon we banned that could come in on anything and proceed to sweep. Mega Blaziken couldn't come in on Talonflame or Azumarill and proceed to sweep. Mega Kanghaskan couldn't come in on Sableye and begin to sweep. This is not a valid argument and I repeat: I can probably find 3 box legendaries that have OU mons that they can't proceed to set up on.preserve said:
We nitpick replays because if you provide replays where opponents make bad plays, it hurts the credibility of the argument. How can you say, "this mon caused me no problems" if the one using the mon was not utilizing his team to the best of its capabilities? I'm not saying "oh, he's bad because he mispredicted an attack", I'm saying "He threw away his Heatran because he couldn't be bothered to check Beedrill's speed" and "He threw away his best Keldeo check because he wanted to set up in front of Zapdos". These are very consequential misplays that are 100% preventable when you use the damage calculator. Also, I'm not saying that you should never have to sack something to get through a battle. I'm saying that sacking a mon shouldn't have to be the first choice every time a certain mon comes into play.
Fair enough, I think we can both agree that this isn't getting anyone anywhere and while our philosophies differ, I can't fault someone simply because they think differently. Besides I'm hungry :p
Greninja often packs grass knot/hp grass which OHKOs and if is not a full stop to rotom because it can burn you and that residual damage is pretty annoying
The point is always the same, how do you bring this thing in safely, without saccing a mon?
Good comparision. Stall has ways to deal with Kyu-B (Jirachi, Scizor, Cresselia) while offense/balance has ways to deal with Greninja, but once they run the right coverage moves (Greninja Extrasensory for Tentacruel, Kyu-B Earth Power for Jirachi et cetera) you are basically left with a very few true counters. However, both can only run 4 moves so even when Greninja has Extrasensory to deal with Tentacruel or Keldeo switch ins, he has 1 coverage move less which makes him weaker to for example AV Azumarill. If Kyu-B runs Earth Power, it costs him 1 moveslot so he doesn't have any place for other moves so Cresselia or M-Scizor can play around it in that case
The difference with Greninja, however, is how superior his movepool is compared to Kyube, who doesn't even have a physical ice type move :c (Greninja has Ice Punch, kek)
