np: Doubles Stage 1 — Dragontown — Salamencite Suspect Discussion IT'S BANNED

[BLOOD TOTEM]

My COIL has decayed and I'm pretty sure it's not meant to. I was at 2240 yesterday but today it's slipped to 2190. My understanding was that COIL was based around GXE and games played so that any decay in ELO, which occurs daily if you don't play, wouldn't have any bearing on it.
Other users have also experienced this issue.

Tagging relevant people Antar Pwnemon

 

[Haruno]

What it means, is that that game was over for me had I not had mega mence. If I had gone with kang, it wouldn't have got the KOs on both mega swamp and hydreigon. The guy was using a rain team. Sash manectric is a legit choice for a fast electric type on a rain team whose mega slot is taken up by swampert. It provides lightning rod support and is fast and powerful. There was 0 other mega that would have won me the game in that situation other than salamence. Your point about dropping jirachi is baseless because had I not had follow me support, swampert, hydreigon and manectric would have shat all over whatever mega I had chosen because I wouldn't have been able to redirect.

Most of the game is noobs playing on the ladder. We were all noobs at one point, and I don't think calling people that might be the ones discussing things in the next suspect thread irrelevant is fair. This game isn't just for experienced players.

I was holding off on watching it because I assumed it would've been bad..... Lo and behold I was right. He literally spent 4 fucking turns spamming weak shit to try and break jirachi. This has nothing to do with mence in this case, this was due to your opps inability to build and/or huge weakness to rachi. (His team was weak as fuck to ludi like every other shitty rain team on the ladder) he also gave you a free DD so no what mence did wasn't exclusive to it. Hell mega kanga could've done the same thing given the circumstances. Same could be said for Sash nasty plot deo-a

I honestly don't see why this replay should affect your discussion since ultimately it was a terrible replay with an opp unable to take advantage of hax and just did bad moves in general.

 

[Antar]

BLOOD TOTEM, if you don't play for a period then your RD will go up, which will, in turn, lower your GXE. It could also be that the ladder server took some time to update your rating after a loss, so it didn't reflect your lower GXE/COIL right away.

 

[SpaceBass]

He wasn't spamming weak shit to try and break Jirachi, he was hitting me with thunders and rain boosted scalds. The only thing he could do. Yeah he could have aimed at mence, but it was going to jirachi regardless of what he chose to do. The fact that he chose to double protect while I DD'd was irrelevant, I used follow me so I was getting the boost regardless of what he tried to do.

At no point did I try to say that the replay itself was good, nor did I say he was a good player. I said I should have lost because I played shit and got haxxed, but I didn't because mence is fucking powerful.

 

[Hashtag]

This game isn't just for experienced players.

tbh all experienced players know this game is a bunch of luck and bullshit, so it's mostly a game for inexperienced players.

Anyways my biggest issue with mence is that it restricts teambuilds more than it opens them up.

I can't build a team without a physically bulky ice attacker, (suicune, rhyperior, gyarados) and it is quite frankly very frustrating. half of the defensive backbones i want to use are unviable, because they don't beat DDmence. it hardly opens teambuilding up at all too, because you can't use it with another mega, and i'm really not a fan of the idea that "you have one god-mon and a bunch of little fuckers trying to keep up." The fact that there is a mence set that beats like every one of its counters means that if i havent used a mega yet, there is absolutely zero reason for me to use a mega other than mence, for surprise factor, and general versatility.

also scarf dragons. I hate running scarf dragons.

 

[DDRMaster]

That 4 SpAtk Suicune was meant to KO Salamence only AFTER Mence had hit it with Double Edge. The point of that statement was that Double Edge will ruin the good bulk that Mega Mence has after one or two uses.

 

[Kyle Ayala]

Hello! My name is Kyle and I am a VGC Player. I know that smogon doubles and VGC arent exactly the same but it has its similarities. Although I do agree that Mega Salamence is pretty broken, but at the same time, there are things that can beat it, such as icy wind and trick room. Doubles is an entirely different metagame than singles. In doubles, two pokemon can be targetted instead of one. two pokemon are there that can kill you. this is why kang and lucario werent banned. Since there are no real checks to mega salamence besides slowing it down or ice beaming it, I'm still torn by it.

 

[Aerogon]

I'm totally on the ban side in this suspect test. This thing has ridiculous stats. While a base attack stat of 145 may not look that threatening for a mega because we have megas whose attk/sp attk stats reaching base 185, its ability to dragon dance combined with a physical bulk better than skarmory and a special bulk comparable to politoed (decent special bulk) AND a coveted base speed of 120 after mega evolving make it incredibly difficult to stop.

A base ability of intimidate is the icing and when paired with jirachi, it is almost guaranteed a setup. While we have had follow me + setup strategies before, mega salamence takes this thing to a new level. Counters/checks get hit hard with coverage moves and don't switch in easily.

Too strong, ban plz.

 

[Joim]

You just need four Pokémon to sacrifice themselves to weaken opposing team, then use mence + support to set it up and sweep. This is an intersting replay fighting cased victory, here you can see that Mega-Salamence can take stuff like adamant LO Brave Bird from Talonflame and get a measly 40% damage and similar damage (less if spread) from adamant 252 Atk Scarf Landorus (and at +1 it outspeeds landorus anyways) while easily 2HKOing it:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogondoublescurrent-191757519

 

[Cased]

For those people wondering I ran 248 HP / 8 Atk / 32 Def / like 176 Speed (no idea too lazy to check) or w.e makes me able to outpace Scarf Landorus-T after +1, I'm Jolly so yeah. Salamence has so many set-up opportunities thanks to its amazing bulk, and you can support it SO easy with a lot of the best Pokemon in the metagame which allows you to beat the Wil-O-Wisp Pokemon mainly Rotom-W/H

It's broken and stuff

 

[Dubtrips]

I think that both sides of this opinion are valid, Mega Salamence has beastly stats and great set-up potential. Given the opportunity, it's perfectly capable of sweeping with very minor assistance. On the flip side, so are a lot of other things. It may be a tired remark, but other powerful mons like Mega Kang and Azumarill have similar set-up potential, both of which impact the meta hugely without breaking it.

Mence is very powerful and is easily one of the top threats of the tier, but I say one of because it's not necessarily the most powerful pokemon. Just because the meta is shuffling a little bit to adjust to the new threats is not reason to panic. I haven't altered any of my teams to deal with Salamence and I've had relatively little trouble. As with the addition of any new mons, the whole game is bound to adjust to any new changes, but if mence was indeed that good, I think everyone would be using it.

In the end, I believe that Mega Salamence is viable for doubles and doesn't need to be banned, but I also understand the viewpoints of those that disagree.

EDIT: I'm starting to lean more towards banning mega-mence after more solid gameplay. The Jirachi + Mence combo that has become so common reminds me of other typical low-ladder gimmicks such as discquake, etc, but much more powerful. It doesn't take as much skill to set up as it does to counter, therefore if I am able I will likely vote yes to ban.

(For those that are not aware, this is Widdly Skuds.)

 

[Miridy]

Question:
For the Requirements do I have to use a single alt or can I use two different alts, one for the current and the other for the suspect (albeit I show that both alts are mine)?

 

[Aerogon]

Question:
For the Requirements do I have to use a single alt or can I use two different alts, one for the current and the other for the suspect (albeit I show that both alts are mine)?

I'm pretty sure 2 separate alts will be fine.

 

[yohoE]

Rotom-W and Rotom-H can burn it and completely wall it.

yfw sub/refresh

Suicune with Ice Beam with 172 EVs and Modest can survive a 252 Double-Edge at +1 and always OHKO with Ice Beam. I've also seen Tailwind be more prominent in ORAS Doubles, which, by the way Suicune learns, this makes Megamence a lot easier to stop.

yfw giga impact

There are also mons that can use Follow Me (Jirachi, Togekiss) to help get rid of Mence. Another thing is Trick Room, which not only Mega Salamence has a hard time dealing with, most teams are completely unable to deal with it.

yfw fakeout vs. follow me and yfw ur team is dead before you can trick room

 

[qwerts]

Ok I've been playing around on the two ladders and I find that I like the suspect one much better. I admit it's a little because i just don't like dealing with things but the teams i make for a suspect ladder don't have to constantly worry about the fact that they need 1-2 mons specifically for beating this thing. Also things like mega venusaur are more usable and add a little more mixture to the tier other then mence teams and anti mence teams.

 

[yummynbeefy]

I have only participated in 3 suspect tests in my entire life, But this is the first time im going to say ban for certain, I have been trying just about everything i can to try to beat mence and still have a solid team, and what generally happens is my team suffers too much from the loss in synergy, and i have to rebuild it to an extent, or my check/counter just isnt good enough, Its bulky as all get-up, Intimidate discourages its Physical checks to stay in, It has great coverage even off of simply Dragon Claw and Return, And Most importantly of all, There isnt much that can switch into it And return a hit.

Thats just what it is on its own, The other problem is the pokemon its being paired with, Raikou and suicune can use Snarl and/or icy wind to keep mences special checks and anything that might be faster down also Jirachi and amoongus Redirect attacks and cripple the other team with status

Ever wonder why all of the sudden, there are hardly any fighting types in doubles? yeah me too

The only true "check" i could find was this M-sceptile set, but it could only take it down with some prediction, or if you switch it in on a protect without one of the aforementioned partners being out

Sceptile-Mega @ Sceptilite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Energy Ball
- Dragon Pulse
- Focus Blast

Very much pro ban

 

[Empress]

While Mega Salamence is powerful and possibly the best offensive Pokemon in the tier with a lot of different sets (although the most common is DD), it's not impossible to counter. Not at all.

For example:
Rotom-W and Rotom-H can burn it and completely wall it.
Suicune with Ice Beam with 172 EVs and Modest can survive a 252 Double-Edge at +1 and always OHKO with Ice Beam. I've also seen Tailwind be more prominent in ORAS Doubles, which, by the way Suicune learns, this makes Megamence a lot easier to stop.

172+ SpA Suicune Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 376-444 (113.2 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Suicune: 340-402 (84.1 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This set/EV spread is not bad at all, try it.

There are also mons that can use Follow Me (Jirachi, Togekiss) to help get rid of Mence. Another thing is Trick Room, which not only Mega Salamence has a hard time dealing with, most teams are completely unable to deal with it.

Mega Salamence is versatile, and a big threat with it's amazing stats but it is far from impossible to stop. So while it can take out entire teams if they lack counters, it has a lot of weaknesses, suffers from 4MSS and it doesn't have the best SpD - it is not that far from being banworthy, but not really that big of an issue.

""tl;dr"": I am against banning Mega Salamence as it is feasible to counter if prepared well enough.

This right here is actually giving me somewhat of a change of heart on Mega Mence itself. It can muscle by most of its supposed checks, but the Rotoms are a full stop. Going special won't help either, given that most Rotom invest in SpD. That Suicune spread is also very creative, and is effective outside of beating Mega Mence as well. Also, thanks for bringing up Tailwind and Trick Room, as they are are becoming more prominent for the sake of outspeeding the new fast Megas. I was mistaken in saying that the rise of those moves rests on Mega Salamence- it also rests on Gallade, Diancie, and Metagross, among others. It's not Mence overcentralizing the metagame, it's a trend.

Key word in the above paragraph is "somewhat", though. Even some Pokemon that have gotten the banhammer had viable checks and counters, such as Bisharp being a great answer to Aegislash, or Fire-types being great answers to Genesect. Just because a Pokemon has hard counters doesn't necessarily mean it isn't broken. As has been stated back on page 1, Mega Mence may have counters, but it has plenty of ways to deal with its checks despite 4MSS. Couple that with its raw power that we all know, and you've got a monster on your hands even if there's a Rotom or TR setter waiting in the wings.

Moreover, remember that Mega Mence always has a partner alongside it. On page 2, you'll find everything you need to know about type synergy and team support. It's not that difficult to provide redirection support from partners like Jirachi, or partner Mence with something that can defeat its counters, like Skymin against Rotom-W.
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 330-393 (108.5 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In this case, you'd better have another Mence counter to switch to. With all of the above in mind, the fact that Mega Salamence synergizes so well with many Pokemon means it nearly always has plenty of opportunities to sweep an opponent. It's already very good as a standalone mon, and with proper teambuilding, it has the potential to become well-nigh unstoppable.

TL;DR version: Mega Mence's viable counters in the Rotoms and Tailwind, among other things, means it won't always get the job done on its own, and the rise of the usage of said counters is not solely for Mence. Nonetheless, it's a great Pokemon who can mesh with many teammates to effectively deal with such counters, which arguably makes it too much to handle for most teams. Clefairy, you've definitely swayed my opinion a bit, but I'm still leaning slightly towards the ban side. But hey, I could go either way at this point.

Ok I've been playing around on the two ladders and I find that I like the suspect one much better. I admit it's a little because i just don't like dealing with things but the teams i make for a suspect ladder don't have to constantly worry about the fact that they need 1-2 mons specifically for beating this thing. Also things like mega venusaur are more usable and add a little more mixture to the tier other then mence teams and anti mence teams.

Tbh, the ladders aren't that different. Like Haruno, I have seen frighteningly little Mega Mence teams on the regular ladder. Still, like you, I have seen many more anti-Mence teams there (think: Trick Room). Perhaps it's a result of the ladder overcompensating.

 

[Braverius]

This entire thread has an unearthly amount of words and only ONE link to a replay in all the posts. I am absolutely not going to read through "I think this, I think that", the only thing we're doing the suspect test for is to see how the thing works against good players using well-prepared teams. In all honestly, I don't think there should really be many posts in this thread that aren't specifically discussing good examples of games with MegaMence. Calcs are fine and all, but people should be testing it against strong staple teams and strong counter-teams, not constantly going back-and-forth about how they feel about certain aspects about it. The only thing that matters is how it's winning and whether or not it's able to be stopped consistently enough to make the game balanced. The only way to show anything about that is to post replays of some good indicator matches and let people discuss those and let those replays spur ideas.

So far I've had an absolutely terrible experience using Mence laddering as it's garbage vs the gimmicky shit that's part of 70% of the teams I've run into, but that speaks to how awful the ladder is for getting an opinion on something rather than Mence being bad. I'm honestly not sure why laddering is part of the requirement to vote for a ban, and I also think people need to not simply participate in the thread here and create random discussion, but provoke thoughts and be progressive in testing and observing to even vote at all. This is lining up to be one of the most uninformed votes I've ever seen on the site, and until we get some replays and some good high-level matches to review and talk about, I don't think this is going anywhere. I'd be up to play some matches tomorrow and help this cause, but I'd also hope the people who have the time to type these walls of text would instead pool their time into actually playing with it. Laddering vs Greninjaland and friends isn't going to give you any good information on the mon; playing against people who are actively (and honestly) pursuing a good answer whether to ban it or not is a much better idea.

 

[Haruno]

This entire thread has an unearthly amount of words and only ONE link to a replay in all the posts. I am absolutely not going to read through "I think this, I think that", the only thing we're doing the suspect test for is to see how the thing works against good players using well-prepared teams. In all honestly, I don't think there should really be many posts in this thread that aren't specifically discussing good examples of games with MegaMence. Calcs are fine and all, but people should be testing it against strong staple teams and strong counter-teams, not constantly going back-and-forth about how they feel about certain aspects about it. The only thing that matters is how it's winning and whether or not it's able to be stopped consistently enough to make the game balanced. The only way to show anything about that is to post replays of some good indicator matches and let people discuss those and let those replays spur ideas.

So far I've had an absolutely terrible experience using Mence laddering as it's garbage vs the gimmicky shit that's part of 70% of the teams I've run into, but that speaks to how awful the ladder is for getting an opinion on something rather than Mence being bad. I'm honestly not sure why laddering is part of the requirement to vote for a ban, and I also think people need to not simply participate in the thread here and create random discussion, but provoke thoughts and be progressive in testing and observing to even vote at all. This is lining up to be one of the most uninformed votes I've ever seen on the site, and until we get some replays and some good high-level matches to review and talk about, I don't think this is going anywhere. I'd be up to play some matches tomorrow and help this cause, but I'd also hope the people who have the time to type these walls of text would instead pool their time into actually playing with it. Laddering vs Greninjaland and friends isn't going to give you any good information on the mon; playing against people who are actively (and honestly) pursuing a good answer whether to ban it or not is a much better idea.

Well the problem with every suspect ladder is naturally everyone and I mean literally everyone will overprepare for the current suspect to such a point that using said suspect becomes a liability in most cases. This is definitely true for the current ladder (and that's disregarding the fact that there are barely any mence users to begin with), and no one ever mentioned on how ladder should be a good indicator on the banworthyness on a specific suspect or not, all the laddering reqs show is some amount of dedication to the tier/getting TC.

As for your proposal to post high level replays, as we saw in the current invitationals with srk leaking replays and laurel's (and everyone else's) reactions were mostly negative because players don't want their good teams to be revealed. This is especially true with such an infant metagame where there are very few "good" teams made and spl just around the corner which makes it nearly impossible to get players to make good teams with mega mence and post replays publicly where those ideas will no longer be usable in spl. So unless you get people to stop saving up teams for spl and have friendlies and post replays where someone just so happens to use mega mence (it is absurd to try and do a battle where either you or your opponent will know the other will be using mega mence which will inadvertently force them to overprepare for mence) it just won't happen. hence all the admittedly useless discussion.

 

[mertyville]

I am not experienced at all in doubles, so I can't really say for centain if Mega Mence is bannworthy or not.

But one I thing I feel like saying is, that Mega Salamence's stats are pretty similar to Arceus-Forme besides Special Defensive wise. Sure, you have less HP but with base 130 Def + Intimidate you are pretty much rivaling even most Ubers already and Aerialate is pretty much a build in Life Orb for Normal Type moves like Hyper Voice, Return, Double Edge etc.
I think that is exacly like Arceus-Forme which all have their plates as only viable items compared to Aeralate from Mega Mence, in other words, you have pretty much a free uber in your team with Mega Salamence.

Sure, Mence can't run as many viable movesets like Arceus, I think you have a large array of viable sets you can take advantage of with all those great moves like: Hyper Voice, Return, Double Edge, Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Dragon Dance, Substitute?, Roost, Earthquake, Draco Meteor, Aqua Tail, Crunch, Heat Wave, Rock Slide, Tail Wind, Wish, Toxic etc.

I think you can definitivly run a defensive set or rather a supportive set...your opponent most likely want to get rid of Mega Mence thinking it is your main attacker, while you set up a Tail Wind and outspeed with your slower pokemon your opponents entire team.

Again, I am not argueing about ban or no ban but I felt like people should at least know what pokemon they are dealing with and actually use Mega Salamence on one ladder to see how effective it is. If you think you have an understanding about one set, you should switch to another set and see how it does now.

 

[marilli]

If you have to start off your post with "I am not experienced at all in doubles" I think you shouldn't post at all... You say you have no opinion but you're framing an argument -a very poor one at that- in form of 'it has base stats of Arceus, should ban.' If Kyurem-B taught us anything base stats shouldn't be of any consideration when it comes to banning, in any tier: the damage you can do and the moves you can tank and the utility you provide should instead.

Just so that this isn't a complete shitpost: I tried laddering in the current ladder with Salamence, and I have learned absolutely nothing other than the fact that Doubles ladder is full of 1. completely clueless people or 2. people who beat the completely clueless people and are deluded into thinking that they are any better. I guess I'm biased because I haven't seen the meta without M-Mence but the teams don't seem ~too~ strained trying to beat megamence. A lot of goodstuff soft check mence, and TR and rain usually do well vs mence as well. In my limited experience beating ladder noobs I found that softer checks are more of a check in doubles than in singles, while harder counters are not as hard, because of the extra teammate and the protect-war that ensues. This is probably why doubles metagame seems to have more tolerance against 'broken' stuff like Kang.

I would probably get a better opinion after seeing 'high level Salamence play' but I guess I won't be seeing that until SPL because everyone's hoarding teams

 

[Braverius]

@ Haruno: I'm liking your post because you're correct, not because I appreciate that the garbage in the second paragraph is happening.

Well the problem with every suspect ladder is naturally everyone and I mean literally everyone will overprepare for the current suspect to such a point that using said suspect becomes a liability in most cases. This is definitely true for the current ladder (and that's disregarding the fact that there are barely any mence users to begin with)

Yeah, you're right, which is why I said it's a terrible indicator, but...

and no one ever mentioned on how ladder should be a good indicator on the banworthyness on a specific suspect or not, all the laddering reqs show is some amount of dedication to the tier/getting TC.

If that's the reasoning behind it, then I get it. If that's true, though, it should be more heavily emphasized that the ladder is not a good way to help determine whether a certain Pokemon is worth banning or not, and laddering experiences should be used as sparingly as possible when referencing examples as to why a thing should/shouldn't be banned.

As for your proposal to post high level replays, as we saw in the current invitationals with srk leaking replays and laurel's (and everyone else's) reactions were mostly negative because players don't want their good teams to be revealed.

I know I made a smart-ass post in the thread about that, but jokes aside, I actually do have a major problem with this situation even happening. Not because srk shouldn't be leaking replays, but because the replays should have already been posted somewhere as soon as the match was done. If we're wanting to grow a tier's players, inform SPL managers and others who's worth drafting and who's not beyond results, and wanting to give more examples of high-level play given that we have very few opportunities outside of the invitational, why are we not posting them? The whole "honor system" with "leaking" teams is absolute horse shit and shouldn't be encouraged. I get that it theoretically hinders your chance at doing better, but if every set from Invis was posted we wouldn't have this problem, everyone would be on the same playing field. By hindering "leaking" and trying to hide certain matches, you're creating an extremely uneven playing field as some people may be more unfortunate when it comes to getting their teams leaked if they don't want them leaked. There is absolutely no positive in trying to keep teams and matches on the down low in the long run beyond selfish motivation.

This is especially true with such an infant metagame where there are very few "good" teams made and spl just around the corner which makes it nearly impossible to get players to make good teams with mega mence and post replays publicly where those ideas will no longer be usable in spl.

I wonder why there's very few "good" teams and why the tier won't grow quickly... I think I just mentioned a good reason somewhere, can't remember where though!
A team isn't going to be unusable in SPL if it's leaked. I know I said something along the lines of "you are at a serious disadvantage if you use a team that someone has information on" but at some point, I think this all settles itself out if people start getting used to 3-5 teams that they cycle around as it'll be hard to focus down one specific team in CTing for SPL. CTing also typically creates major holes if the opponent were to bring their own CT or whatnot. I don't think I have to continue this, it should be pretty self-explanatory that this isn't much of a problem.

So unless you get people to stop saving up teams for spl and have friendlies and post replays where someone just so happens to use mega mence (it is absurd to try and do a battle where either you or your opponent will know the other will be using mega mence which will inadvertently force them to overprepare for mence) it just won't happen. hence all the admittedly useless discussion.

I'd ask a few more questions but I think it'd devolve into "we should have just quickbanned Salamencite and picked up suspecting after SPL". I think that's probably the best approach right now, given that there's 2 weeks until we're going to have to start playing matches and still have no idea if the thing will be allowed.


Yeah sorry there's no replays and lots of words, but this was something I've been wanting to address for quite some time now.

 

[Joim]

I'm at phone right now, just wanted to say that "we should have just quickbanned Salamencite and picked up suspecting after SPL" is a great idea.

Also I'd like to play some more people and post replays, I'll build both a mence and countermence team later today.

 

[Qazoo306]

After reading both Braverius's and Haruno's rants about how bad the ladder is... Are we banning to balance for the ladder so the ladder is balanced or are we banning to balance for tournaments like SPL?

 

[Stratos]

After reading both Braverius's and Haruno's rants about how bad the ladder is... Are we banning to balance for the ladder so the ladder is balanced or are we banning to balance for tournaments like SPL?

for tournaments like spl