Metagame NP: RU Stage 5: Gods and Monsters (HOUNDOOMINITE IS BL2, READ POST #178)

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Darn, I was just getting used to it.

Ah well, it kinda needed to happen. Mega Doomer was just too good. As for Lop, it will probably move up to at least UU, if not OU, anyway, so I can understand holding off on retesting it.

and we waited this long for doomer to drop just to ban the mega stone, tsk tsk
 

Holiday

on my best behavior
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Just a random question, I haven't tried out Mega Audino yet. How does it perform? Any good sets you can recommend etc?
 

atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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Just a random question, I haven't tried out Mega Audino yet. How does it perform? Any good sets you can recommend etc?
Highlighting Pearl. and EonX because they love this mon, but from what I understand Mega Audino has two pretty cool sets for Stall, one being the regular Audino set with Wish / Protect / Heal Bell / Knock Off (best part is you don't have to mega evolve right away so you can still pivot early game w/ regular Audino). And then Crodino which is a pretty nifty wincon with Rest / Sleep Talk / Calm Mind / Dazzling Gleam, and its really hard to break thanks to its Huge Bulk and nice defensive typing. But yeah its basically a pretty cool stall mon if you are looking for one, I'd probably use Regular Audino on Balance teams because regen is pro af, and I'd rather use an offensive mega on more balanced teams n_n.
 

Holiday

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Highlighting Pearl. and EonX because they love this mon, but from what I understand Mega Audino has two pretty cool sets for Stall, one being the regular Audino set with Wish / Protect / Heal Bell / Knock Off (best part is you don't have to mega evolve right away so you can still pivot early game w/ regular Audino). And then Crodino which is a pretty nifty wincon with Rest / Sleep Talk / Calm Mind / Dazzling Gleam, and its really hard to break thanks to its Huge Bulk and nice defensive typing. But yeah its basically a pretty cool stall mon if you are looking for one, I'd probably use Regular Audino on Balance teams because regen is pro af, and I'd rather use an offensive mega on more balanced teams n_n.
I've been using Mega Audino with Wish/Protect/CM/DGleam on my Semi Stall team, and it's working absolute wonders. The thing is SO FUCKING BULKY. ;D
 

Pearl

Romance は風のまま
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Highlighting Pearl. and EonX because they love this mon, but from what I understand Mega Audino has two pretty cool sets for Stall, one being the regular Audino set with Wish / Protect / Heal Bell / Knock Off (best part is you don't have to mega evolve right away so you can still pivot early game w/ regular Audino). And then Crodino which is a pretty nifty wincon with Rest / Sleep Talk / Calm Mind / Dazzling Gleam, and its really hard to break thanks to its Huge Bulk and nice defensive typing. But yeah its basically a pretty cool stall mon if you are looking for one, I'd probably use Regular Audino on Balance teams because regen is pro af, and I'd rather use an offensive mega on more balanced teams n_n.
Do not tag both me and EonX on the same post when comparing Mega Audino fans, we're just not on the same level of obsession. Also, first serious post in the new NP thread, god bless!

With that said, don't use Mega Audino with the standard Wish set, as that's a waste of potential. Use Aromatisse if you need a Fairy-type Pokemon desperately or regular Audino / Alomomola if Regenerator's your cup of tea. The former also has the added advantage of checking the qq-inducing Pokemon Lopunny (I actually have no clue how broken it is, as I only play this tier to promote the previously mentioned Audino and MUSHARNA, as well as destroy Spirit every once in a while). Instead, feel free to give this a try:



Audino @ Audinite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Dazzling Gleam / Hyper Voice
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

STAB move of choice depends on whether you want to hit stuff slightly harder or if you prefer the superior mono coverage Dazzling Gleam provides. Everything else is standard. This thing's bulk is actually on par with Suicune's, so make use of that. Immunity to Trick is neat as fuck too, although the only user of that on the top of my head is Rotom-C.

Use it to pivot strong attackers during earlier phases of the game. You can actually outmaneuver Choice Specs Dragalge by switching on its Draco Meteor and forcing it out or setting up on it if it uses a Poison-type move. Only works before you evolve though. You're sort of weak before racking up a decent amount of boosts, so keep that in mind.

There's also this offensive core I'd like to try someday. It's probably shit, but I might as well throw it here for some brainstorming. Off you go:



Audino @ Audinite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Hyper Voice
- Fire Blast
- Healing Wish



Tyrantrum @ Lum Berry
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Whatever coverage people run on this
- ^


Use Audino to lure Steel-types, smack shit with Tyrantrum. Once Tyrantrum can't smack shit any more shit, Healing Wish it until there's nothing to smack anymore.
 
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boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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Mega Houndoom: banned unanimously
Mega Lopunny: 4 Do not ban
Seriously?
I think the main reason that the decision turned out that way is because mega houndoom could simultaneously threaten defensive teams with nasty plot while also having an available moveslot for flame charge to outspeed common choice scarf users. While Lopunny could use sub baton pass / encore to take advantage of defensive teams, it loses the utility of fake out to revenge kill pokemon on offensive teams.
Obviously there is a ton of other stuff involved, but that was just one comparison that stood out to me.
 
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Nickos

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I wasn't saying Mega Houndoom wasn't ban-worthy, i just compared the number of votes and found it somewhat ridiculous.
 

aVocado

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I wasn't saying Mega Houndoom wasn't ban-worthy, i just compared the number of votes and found it somewhat ridiculous.
When you think about it for a second it really doesn't seem that unorthodox. Lopunny strives against 1 playstyle for the most part and that's offense. Against stall or even balance it can really struggle to get past specific walls like Cresselia etc. Houndoom can do very well against both offense and stall thanks to it's access to Nasty Plot as well as pretty much only needing its dual STABs, which means it's free to carry whatever 4th move it wants to, be it sucker punch, hp grass, flame charge, or destiny bond. Adding more to that, it has 115 Speed which means that even without Flame Charge it could already be annoying to offense.

Also another thing about Houndoom is that it's not weak to Acrobatics/Hurricane nor the now-somewhat-popular Scarf Meloetta, unlike Lopunny.

In the end, Lopunny is a lot more controversial than Mega Houndoom.
 

phantom

Banned deucer.
Houndoom had generally more consistency vs other playstyles across the board true, but Lopunny makes offense complete shit whereas Houndoom didn't completely destroy any one playstyle (yes even stall had ways to play around it), it was just generally broke. o_o And it's not like Lopunny is useless vs defensive teams either, SubPup in particular has very few defensive counters (there's like what, 2-3 counters to this set?), especially if said defensive threats switch directly in on a PuP. I don't think NickoSter's sentiments are out of line or anything. In my opinion, and I know there are others who think so as well, Mega Lopunny is a lot more broken than Mega Houndoom. Hopefully there will be a revote on Mega Lopunny soon, but that's all I'll say on this for the time being~
 

EonX

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Mega Houndoom: banned unanimously
Mega Lopunny: 4 Do not ban
Seriously?
As Arikado already mentioned, Mega Houndoom could perform well against all team types with a single moveset. If Mega Lop runs SubPUP (which I have legit not seen in nearly 250 games that I've played or watched. I would think that if it's remotely popular I would have seen it at least once by now... that or my timing / luck sucks ass) this restricts its ability to take on offensive teams due to not having the ability to use Fake Out to wear down Scarfers and get a free Mega on anything. But if Mega Lop runs Fake Out to get a free mega evolution on anything, it can't run Sub + PUP to apparently beat stall (which I have never seen. I literally just want to see replays of this set because I've never seen it in action)

Sorry llamas, but Pearl. is right. While I will acknowledge that Mega Audino does have a pretty solid niche / spot in RU, I'm not a mega fan of it like Pearl. I like it for what it does, but I don't use Stall much at all.
 
Alright, I constantly see talk about Scarf Meloetta and how it's oh so "popular" in this metagame. Well, I decided to try this aids monkey out and post results in here.

To make things short, it's not good. At all. I, along with a few others I'm sure, view it as somewhat of a specialized check to Mega Lop, like how Assault Vest Kabutops rose in popularity late XY and is still somewhat prominent today. However, unlike Kabu, it has far too many things setting it back that make it Kinda Bad.

To start off, it's really weak. While as I mentioned, its main use is to check Mega Lopunny, after that it doesn't really do that much. Its STAB moves, while not poor in the slightest, don't really do enough to revenge kill and / or clean late game. Just to show an example;

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-192801703

While I did play kinda Badly in this match (and was in elo hell cause fresh alt) and my team wasn't really as good as I liked it to be (I built it around scarf melo sue me), the point I'm trying to make still stands. The fact that it does 56 at best to offensive Cobal at -1 is kinda surprising, and based on that, it kinda shows that the set's usage tumbles after it does what it needs to, unlike AV Kabu, who has pretty good utility in matches where Scarf Molt is down / the other team doesn't have it, as it clears hazards for bulky offensive teams and can cripples Pokemon reliant on their item with Knock Off. It also has problems getting through walls like Aroma and Alomomola, which is really a waste of Melo's potential considering the fact that nearly EVERY other set it has trashes both of them (barring the Relic Song sets, which I don't think I've ever seen in high level play but that's besides the pont).

Another reason why it sucks is the fact that it's complete and utter bait for Pursuit trappers, like Spiritomb and Escavalier, as both switch into it with little problem and shit all over it. While it's pretty obvious when both will switch in, it's not hard to lure it in, and if that happens than Melo becomes virtually useless and, unless they're running more than one answer to Lop (i'd much rather use cress as a lop answer instead of this set lol), bunny becomes more difficult to deal with.

Finally, unlike other Scarfers, like Moltres, its STAB moves are not nearly as spammable as it'd like it to be. Both of them have immunities, and it makes it that much easier to switch in to it, and to an extent, Pursuit trap it, which is a huge downfall for it considering the fact that most scarfers are meant to do well against offense.

Don't get me wrong though, it's not like Meloetta's problems are specific to it. There are very few Pokemon in the RU metagame that can actually use a Choice Scarf effectively, like Moltres, Rotom-C, and Magneton. But as a set specifically used to check something viewed as broken (not gonna post my stance on lop but i think this post makes it fairly obvious), and when compared to other sets that are meant to do the same thing, I feel like Scarf Melo is really just bad. That's just me though.
 

EonX

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You say you built around Scarf Meloetta Bouffalant, but that's also the problem imo. I never build with Scarf Meloetta in mind. Even dating back to when I first used it on Balance Claws in XY, I added it because I needed its special bulk and extra Speed. On my HO teams in ORAS, I tend to add it on late for a one-time Moltres switch-in and a revenge killer of faster threats. Imo, it's not something you should ever build around. Scarf Melo isn't good enough to build around. It's something that you should add as a fast utility mon, primarily on offensive teams that can't find room for Rapid Spin support since it does provide you with a single use Moltres switch in, which is hopefully enough to regain offensive momentum and keep Tres from getting many more switch-ins, if any at all. I still think Specs is Melo's best set, but much like in XY, Scarf has a definite niche to be used in imo.
 

phantom

Banned deucer.
You're probably not supposed to build around Scarf Meloetta, but the fact that he made the effort to create a team centered around making it perform well and then used it only to come to the conclusion that it was ass kinda says something here, don't you think? xd
 

Ares

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So 8 people are enough ban a poke out of the hundred or so that play the tier?
lol

Yah I don't think you understand how a council system works, members of the council are among the best / most knowledgable players in the tier. They base their votes upon various opinions of the public and by testing the meta. They aren't banning Pokemon left and right, they are banning Pokemon that are bad for the tier. If you disagree with something getting banned when a suspect gets announced for it, post your disagreement in this thread as council members will look at people's posts and base their votes off of arguments they think are right.
 
lol

Yah I don't think you understand how a council system works, members of the council are among the best / most knowledgable players in the tier. They base their votes upon various opinions of the public and by testing the meta. They aren't banning Pokemon left and right, they are banning Pokemon that are bad for the tier. If you disagree with something getting banned when a suspect gets announced for it, post your disagreement in this thread as council members will look at people's posts and base their votes off of arguments they think are right.
Eh was too late. Was going to test it out and stuff, but either way but still doesn't feel right having so few people decide, whether they are knowledgable or not.
 
Eh was too late. Was going to test it out and stuff, but either way but still doesn't feel right having so few people decide, whether they are knowledgable or not.
Considering how many broken things there were at the start of the tier this gen, and how pretty much everything banned by the council was generally agreed upon by most the community, I'd say fastest and easiest to just have representatives for the community vote. Imagine if there was a suspect test for each pokemon that's been banned recently lol. It would pointless and time-consuming to have everyone vote on something that's agreed on by most players.
 
Alright, I constantly see talk about Scarf Meloetta and how it's oh so "popular" in this metagame. Well, I decided to try this aids monkey out and post results in here.

To make things short, it's not good. At all. I, along with a few others I'm sure, view it as somewhat of a specialized check to Mega Lop, like how Assault Vest Kabutops rose in popularity late XY and is still somewhat prominent today. However, unlike Kabu, it has far too many things setting it back that make it Kinda Bad.

To start off, it's really weak. While as I mentioned, its main use is to check Mega Lopunny, after that it doesn't really do that much. Its STAB moves, while not poor in the slightest, don't really do enough to revenge kill and / or clean late game. Just to show an example;

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-192801703
First big issue is that you are running Psyshock, I honestly don't understand why that move is considered standard. I guess it hits Dragalge slightly harder (still OHKO'd by Psychic after minimal previous damage, assuming 252 HP) and OHKOes Ass Vest Hitmonchan (which is shit in RU and that's being generous. In all honesty I don't mind seeing it when I'm running a hazards based team, it basically means my opp can't spin), but that's pretty much it. Psychic hits significantly harder against pretty much everything relevant and has that nice 20% SDef drop rate (it does funny things like killing Sdef Rhyperior and Physically Defensive Aromatisse after the drop + the first hit).

Second is that while it does check Lopunny, which is nice, it is not a overspecialized check. It's a scarfer that can check Lopunny, it's not something you exclusively put in your team to deal with Lopunny.

Third you use Rotom-C and Magneton later in your post as better scarfers than Meloetta, and here you call Meloetta weak so:

252 SpA Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spinda: 220-261 (84.2 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Rotom-C Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spinda: 192-226 (73.5 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spinda: 277-327 (106.1 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-2 252 SpA Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spinda: 138-163 (52.8 - 62.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spinda: 211-249 (80.8 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Moltres Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spinda: 264-312 (101.1 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Scarf Moltres hits harder than all scarfers, that's nothing new. Rotom-C hits harder with Leaf Storm the first time, but two Psychic / Hyper Voice do significantly more damage than two Leaf Storm and you are not forced to switch out. Meloetta hits harder than both Rotom and Magneton using Thunderbolt. It isn't weak when you compare it with other scarfers.

While I did play kinda Badly in this match (and was in elo hell cause fresh alt) and my team wasn't really as good as I liked it to be (I built it around scarf melo sue me), the point I'm trying to make still stands. The fact that it does 56 at best to offensive Cobal at -1 is kinda surprising, and based on that, it kinda shows that the set's usage tumbles after it does what it needs to, unlike AV Kabu, who has pretty good utility in matches where Scarf Molt is down / the other team doesn't have it, as it clears hazards for bulky offensive teams and can cripples Pokemon reliant on their item with Knock Off. It also has problems getting through walls like Aroma and Alomomola, which is really a waste of Melo's potential considering the fact that nearly EVERY other set it has trashes both of them (barring the Relic Song sets, which I don't think I've ever seen in high level play but that's besides the pont).
Of course it doesn't do much to Cobalion with Psyshock, it has 91 / 129 physical bulk. Start running Psychic:

252 SpA Meloetta Psychic vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 286-337 (88.5 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

It's a scarfer, of course it has problems with walls bulky walls. This is like saying Moltres is just wasting its potential to break Alomomola and Jellicent by running Scarf (unless you have Cased's luck, in which case every Hurricane hits, causes confusion and crit 80% of the tines). You aren't running Scarf Meloetta to break walls (you break a good chunk of them if you get that 20% drop tho), so I don't see how that makes it bad.

Also tbh I don't see how that's a team based around Meloetta. It just a regular team + Meloetta.

Another reason why it sucks is the fact that it's complete and utter bait for Pursuit trappers, like Spiritomb and Escavalier, as both switch into it with little problem and shit all over it. While it's pretty obvious when both will switch in, it's not hard to lure it in, and if that happens than Melo becomes virtually useless and, unless they're running more than one answer to Lop (i'd much rather use cress as a lop answer instead of this set lol), bunny becomes more difficult to deal with.

Finally, unlike other Scarfers, like Moltres, its STAB moves are not nearly as spammable as it'd like it to be. Both of them have immunities, and it makes it that much easier to switch in to it, and to an extent, Pursuit trap it, which is a huge downfall for it considering the fact that most scarfers are meant to do well against offense.
Being Pursuit bait is bad, that's a given, but is not necessarily the end of the world. Those Pokemon (Esca and Tomb, everything else takes about 70% min from Hyper Voice) put Meloetta in a hard spot, but playing around them is not completely impossible, specially with U-turn + the fact neither Pokemon runs Leftovers anymore. There's also the possibility of luring and killing them before they even do anything (remember Fire Punch Mesprit?).

Nothing is as spammable as Moltres' STABs. Rotom-C cannot blindly spam Volt Switch / Tbolt and while the Leaf Storm threat exists, you cannot spam that move either because of the SDef drop. Magneton is similar but the difference is that half of the tier resists Flash Cannon.

Don't get me wrong though, it's not like Meloetta's problems are specific to it. There are very few Pokemon in the RU metagame that can actually use a Choice Scarf effectively, like Moltres, Rotom-C, and Magneton. But as a set specifically used to check something viewed as broken (not gonna post my stance on lop but i think this post makes it fairly obvious), and when compared to other sets that are meant to do the same thing, I feel like Scarf Melo is really just bad. That's just me though.
This is the main problem of the whole post. You are seeing Scarf Meloetta as "that Pokemon that checks Lopunny" and you don't even bother seeing the positive things it has over other scarfers.

So why use Scarf Meloetta instead of other Scarfers?

Well unlike Moltres it isn't SR weak, so it does not require Rapid Spin or Defog support. It has the same base speed as Moltres, so it is faster than Rotom-C, which allows it to threaten Rotom-C itself and revenge kill Omastar. Meloetta also has absurd special bulk, which gives it tons of opportunities to switch in [252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Meloetta: 185-218 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO] and allows it to revenge kill some threats without having to sac one of your Pokemon first. Its STAB hit fairly hard and they both have a good bonus going for them: Hyper Voice hits through Substitutes and Psychic's 20% SDef drop allows it to potentially more damage than any other scarfer and causes lots of switches. And lastly it has a bunch of coverage moves that allow you to revenge kill specific threats that might give you trouble, and additionally it learns Trick.

Just like every Pokemon, Meloetta has some drawbacks. But just don't ignore it has lots of possitive going for it as well. It might have not worked for you, but that doesn't automatically make it bad. Before Houndoom's ban I got to the top 10 with a team running Scarf Meloetta, and it worked nicely for me.
 
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this post is gonna make atomicllamas day.


Rotom-Fan @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 76 SpD / 168 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Air Slash
- Volt Switch / Thunderbolt
- Protect


Rotom-S checks some new threats as Pidgeot Mega, as secondary Sceptile Mega check and still check old threats as Fletchinder, Virizion or Cobalion without Stone Edge, Scarf Moltres, Hitmonlee and Escavalier. Wisp cripple walls and ground types mostly as Rhyperior which otherwise you cant touch, Air Slash is mandatory for grasses types as Mega-Sceptile, electric STAB which is really up to you the move. And finally Protect, which is gonna help to scout some faster stuff / choices and help with extra recovery. Evs spread customized by me.
 
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