For Gyarados, you don't really need a lum berry since sub blocks status anyways, so I recommend running leftovers over lum berry. Also, where did you get those EVs from?
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Other ORAS Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Nah lum berry is good, it allows him to switch into scalds with less fear and that thundurus situation could be helpful. But not only that it does bluff the mega, which adds additional mind games, for instance they may think that chesnaught is a good switchin, or they may use a fighting type attack prdeicting him to mega. Lum berry makes his set run better in my opinion, leftovers is great too but lum has unique advantages.
silver97
GUNDELEROS WE DO THE PATTO DI SANGUE
The spread is taken from masterclass' team, i don't remember what was the point of it. In that team gyarados was mega, however Masterclass was planning to use it in its normal form for a good part of the battle and only mega evolve to clean at the end, so the spread should be fine on normal gyara.
Just saying, but because bounce is a two turn move chesnaught still beats this 1v1. Chesnaught can just spiky shield on the second turn of bounce, meaning it can only use waterfall on it, which can't even 2hko at +6. As long as chesnaught spams drain punch the entire time, the worst case scenario is still a dead gyarados, but with chesnaught being at 10%. The fact that they are likely subbing up and wasting turns means it is even less, and if they dont sub it is likely you will be able to get a leech seed off.
+6 192+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 167-197 (43.9 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Chesnaught Drain Punch vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 52-62 (14.7 - 17.5%) -- possible 6HKO
If you're having trouble with mega Slowbro, I suggest running Pokemon such as nasty plot celebi, sub dd mega gyarados, dark pulse greninja, Gengar, etc. Sub DD mega gyarados is one of my favorite sets, as mega slowbro can't break its sub with scald and +1 crunch does over 70%.
I've been using manaphy to kill that and the rest of stall and its been working for me, but I've needed a reason to use mega gyarados aswell.
how about you run unaware cm clefable for this? you could possibly bluff the magic guard and then set up all over it and then start killing pokes.
Well, by that logic, Ninjask should be like A rank. Jokes aside, M-Alakazam is still an interesting, if sub-par, pick in this Meta. While yes, it does outspeed things after it mega-evolves, it can't change its speed tier in the face of omnipresent threats like Greninja or face a speed tie with others like Sceptile (and you'd probably lose since most Zams run modest).
Mega-alakazam is still a decent stall breaker, though with M-sableye running amuk, you're almost forced to carry Dazzling Gleam if you want to do something substantial against bulkier stall teams. In that case, then, you're almost always better off using something like M-Garde still.
I'll admit that it's post-evolution speed is super sexy in this meta, outpacing M-Scept, M-Drill, M-Lop, etc...so it's not incredibly dead weight against offense. It just kind of sucks that its typing really doesn't help it all...at least M-dactyl can be a defensive check to things like BirdSpam while providing an offensive presence. You'll end up trying to support M-ala more than it can sometimes support for the rest of your team, which can fail to justify its use. Furthermore, Alakazam's ability to take down poison types is not as appreciated with M-Venus and Amoong going down in popularity in favor of things like Celebi and still more Ferrothorn (though people are starting to realize M-Venu/Moong is decent in this meta again). You can take down Tentacruel I guess, but meh.
It's a decent Rain check, tracing Swift Swim from M-swamp and the likes, though it can't take out the rain sweepers without prior damage or the appropriate coverage move (and then you'd kinda be gimping its coverage even more).
Idk, I'm just trying to flush out any positives for M-Zam, and on paper, he seems pretty okay. It's probably the opportunity cost of being a Mega as well as non-existent typing advantage that it brings to a team that probably contribute to its neglect.
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Yeah that works too, but on that certain team I was running the rocks set. I've also found specs raikou to be a nice check aswell.
I have to disagree, having used Zam it's an insanely good revenge killer/cleaner. It does have the odd issue with Sableye, but Gleam can help with that. Personally, I run Focus Miss/Psychic/Energy Ball/Shadow Ball. Energy Ball seems weird, but it makes it a great check to Pert and Kabutops in the rain, as well as a way of getting rid of Quagsire, who I hate a lot.
With SR and Spikes up, it makes it very very difficult to stop, as there are few offensive threats that can survive a STAB boosted Psychic or SE Shadow Ball after SR. Being able to check Greninja (if Mevolved) is useful too, as it lowers the need for a scarfed 'mon to switch into it.
I use Conkeldurr as my main switch into Chansey, but also CB Talonflame to try and take it on (backed up by HWish Latias), as he is the main stop to Zam. Tflame helps smash holes in pokemon for Zam to clean up, making him a surprisingly good partner.
Quick tip: if you run 88 HP / 8 Def, then uninvested Mega Sableye's Knock Off will never break your Sub if you switch in and catch it with Intimidate. That lets you set up all over Mega Sableye's utility sets without Foul Play, which makes Gyarados that much more dangerous against stall teams.
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I've had a lot of success with the following core: LO KyuB/Megabro/Porygon2
It is a nice balanced core and para support from P2 is great. I with I could run Jirachi instead of P2 but Ninja is a bitch :( .
You still need a Bisharp answer though. Cobalion looks good with SR+volt-switch+CC+Iron head.
As for the metagme in general,I have seen a lot more of Kyurem-B lately. It's still a very good wall breaker and the opportunity cost of running a dedicated wallbreaker mega has pushed it forward.
It is a nice balanced core and para support from P2 is great. I with I could run Jirachi instead of P2 but Ninja is a bitch :( .
You still need a Bisharp answer though. Cobalion looks good with SR+volt-switch+CC+Iron head.
As for the metagme in general,I have seen a lot more of Kyurem-B lately. It's still a very good wall breaker and the opportunity cost of running a dedicated wallbreaker mega has pushed it forward.
So....run timid? C'mon guys. What do old 'mons do to new threats? Adapt. Remember, aero used to always run adamant.
If only timid Alakazam could outspeed Greninja (one of the biggest offensive threats atm) ._., which was my whole point. "Run protect, then", sure okay.
We can sit here and argue which nature is better for it, movesets, etc. but idk why people are getting defensive about my post, in which I never said Zam was downright unviable. It has its perks, and you can Theorymon all day with me if you'd like. It just comes down to you using it successfully, which if you can, great.
And I can't remember when Aero used to be Adamant, but show me if you'd like. Even its glory days as a suicide DPP lead, it was almost exclusively run Jolly to tie with other Aero.
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XY needed Aero to be Adamant. So was Zam. Mega Aero's speed tier was considered godly before ORAS, which was the reason why speed boosting nature was not a major necessity as even without the nature it could already outspeed Gren with Adamant (and 176 Speed EVs to be exact) and invest more in bulk. Adamant nature increases Mega Aerodactyl's damage output, while Jolly doesn't allow Mega Aerodactyl to outspeed anything notable.
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Using Jirachi > P2 and using AV conkeldurr (who is grossly underused atm) on the team fixes your problems :]
But with proper prediction ninja can just 2HKO both of them with dark pulse and gunk shot respectively. If it lacks dark pulse, then rachi has nothing to worry about.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
MegaBro is downright destructive right now. Like, that thing will wall 80% of the non-stall tailored meta to pieces. I want to get rid of the shit but you can't pursuit trap it either to take advantage of its typing, and more offensive sets or good prediction can absolutely fuck ALL of its switchins.
So I hadn't actually used Mega Lopunny of all of the Megas until recently, so I decided to try it on a team with HJK / Return / Ice Punch / Fake Out which performed great, especially with Fake Out aiding in getting Mega opportunities against like Greninja and stuff. I wanted to test out Sub though since Lopunny has a ton of supportive options and Sub + PuP or Encore or Baton Pass could all be cool, but I went with Encore and good lord did it perform.
Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Return
- Substitute
- Encore
This set does so much you can beat so much more than before. You can Sub on Ferro Protect and Encore it then either rely on the 66/33 or wait until it double protects, you can Sub on Hawlucha SDing so you can Encore it and 2HKO with Return without it killing you, being at +2, and with Unburden, you can Encore Amoonguss Spores and spam Return, you can Encore Celebi NP's for the NP + BP set setting up on you, there are so many different advantages it could put you in/ Try it now imo.
Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Return
- Substitute
- Encore
This set does so much you can beat so much more than before. You can Sub on Ferro Protect and Encore it then either rely on the 66/33 or wait until it double protects, you can Sub on Hawlucha SDing so you can Encore it and 2HKO with Return without it killing you, being at +2, and with Unburden, you can Encore Amoonguss Spores and spam Return, you can Encore Celebi NP's for the NP + BP set setting up on you, there are so many different advantages it could put you in/ Try it now imo.
I like to use PuP over Substitute on this set as it punishes those pesky bulky win conditions that more defensive teams rely on, e.g. CM Clef/Bro or Sub users e.g. Jirachi/Keldeo, as well as things that love to recover with impunity infront of you, e.g. Skarmory (assuming you removed Rocky helmet), and proceed to gain a PuP boost. From there very not much want to take a +1/2 Return, I opt for return as the +1 boost behind it makes it much harder to wall and usually kills the switch in or badly dents it without the chance for an unfortunate HJK accident. I already posted in UU but it is just as effective in OU, even more so thanks to the prominence of Bisharp and Tyranitar who are easy kills.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-oras-uu-stage-1-changes.3522744/page-12#post-5914395
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If there's something I really enjoy in pokemon, it is breaking stall teams. Now we all know that with the addition of Mega Sableye, these teams got a huge boost and are increasingly challenging to beat: "traditional" stallbreakers running Taunt are turned into setup fodder, and Mega Sableye grants the user control of the hazard game if the opponent's SR user doesn't threaten it directly. That's why having a SR user that doesn't care about Sableye coming in or that can capitalize on said switch-in has become important. That's why i found Stealth Rock + Magma Storm Heatran to be particularly effective in the current metagame:
Heatran @ Air Balloon / Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Magma Storm
- Stealth Rock
- Ancient Power / Taunt / Toxic
- Earth Power / Taunt / Toxic
If the opponent knows that this is your Stealth Rock user, he will most likely try to switch Mega Sableye in to prevent SR from going up, and Magma Storm not only allows Heatran 2HKO it, but also prevents the opponent from saving Mega Sableye for later to recover back the damage (other SR users such as EP Landorus-T can't prevent it from switching out and sticking around), effectively removing the centerpiece of ORAS Stall from the game (assuming the second Magma Storm hits, damn it). After that, you're free to set up SR and start weakening the opponent's team. The choice of the item and of the last two moveslots is up to preference. Leftovers + Taunt + Toxic allows you to bluff a less aggressive set and helps stallbreaking in the traditional way after removing Sableye; on the other hand, Air Balloon + pseudo-edgequake coverage allows Heatran to set up SR more easily against offense, shut down opposing Heatrans, and provide you with a more reliable check to SD Talonflame thanks to Ancient Power, which is something many offensive teams appreciate. Ah, and Magma Storm is a great move against offensive teams, as you can prevent the Heatran switch-in from switching out, allowing you to bring your counter in safely without fearing the double.
If you're paranoid about accuracy you could even run Flamethrower + Magma Storm to KO Sableye reliably after the first Magma Storm hits but it is not advised imo as it is redundant in too many other situations if compared to great tools like taunt / ancientpower ecc.
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sableye: 144-171 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed with the subsequent 12.5% damage)
EDIT: Fuck XY trapping mechanics (see below). At least, this is still an example of a SR user that threatens Mega Sableye with a 2HKO. Especially if your opponent doesn't know that he can switch out. -__- Magma Storm is still a good move as it prevents your opponent from doubling out after it hits.
Also, bonus tool against sableye stall:
Absol-Mega @ Absolite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Play Rough
Absol got a great buff with ORAS, as it finally has access to Knock Off + Play Rough on the same set, which is a combination that is only resisted by Klefki, i think. Moreover, it now gains the role of shutting down non-Foul Play Mega Sableye, bouncing back WoW and setting up on it. The SD + Knock Off + Sucker Punch combination is deadly, as Bisharp taught us, and it allows Absol to perform well against offense, in conjunction with its good speed tier. It is also cool because it baits Keldeo and Landorus-T to switch in. Removing the potential Scarf with Knock Off on the switch (and KOing it with the subsequent Play Rough in Keldeo's case) opens up the opportunity for other fast attackers such as Greninja (pls ban it) to wreak havoc. This guy is extremely underrated right now from my experience.
252 Atk Mega Absol Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 96-113 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- 12.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Mega Absol Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 238-282 (73.6 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Heatran @ Air Balloon / Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Magma Storm
- Stealth Rock
- Ancient Power / Taunt / Toxic
- Earth Power / Taunt / Toxic
If you're paranoid about accuracy you could even run Flamethrower + Magma Storm to KO Sableye reliably after the first Magma Storm hits but it is not advised imo as it is redundant in too many other situations if compared to great tools like taunt / ancientpower ecc.
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sableye: 144-171 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed with the subsequent 12.5% damage)
EDIT: Fuck XY trapping mechanics (see below). At least, this is still an example of a SR user that threatens Mega Sableye with a 2HKO. Especially if your opponent doesn't know that he can switch out. -__- Magma Storm is still a good move as it prevents your opponent from doubling out after it hits.
Also, bonus tool against sableye stall:
Absol-Mega @ Absolite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Play Rough
Absol got a great buff with ORAS, as it finally has access to Knock Off + Play Rough on the same set, which is a combination that is only resisted by Klefki, i think. Moreover, it now gains the role of shutting down non-Foul Play Mega Sableye, bouncing back WoW and setting up on it. The SD + Knock Off + Sucker Punch combination is deadly, as Bisharp taught us, and it allows Absol to perform well against offense, in conjunction with its good speed tier. It is also cool because it baits Keldeo and Landorus-T to switch in. Removing the potential Scarf with Knock Off on the switch (and KOing it with the subsequent Play Rough in Keldeo's case) opens up the opportunity for other fast attackers such as Greninja (pls ban it) to wreak havoc. This guy is extremely underrated right now from my experience.
252 Atk Mega Absol Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 96-113 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- 12.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Mega Absol Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 238-282 (73.6 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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Anyone else feel metagame is a bit stale already, or at least like no variety in teams they face?
Seems like I face some sort of balance team every game I play. Its literally ScarfLando-T, Rotom-W, heatran, ferrothorn, clefable, and Latia@s every where i go, not saying these mons are bad, but just seems everyone is using them, i wish there was more variety. Only trouble though, i'm wondering is there any room for improvement?
Lando-T is pretty much best scarfer, only niche for another is basically surprise factor.
Rotom-W is amazing pivot with great typing, not much can do what it can do.
Heatran again has unique typing with key resists and bulk
Ferro is prob the most replaceable as there are other bulky grass types, but really that steel type is clutch.
Clefable has great typing and immune to those dragon types. I've seen Sylveon replace it as it can hit harder, but clefable's abilities usually give it the edge. Altaria also used if this is where you want your megaslot.
Lati@s have the most offensive and defensive pressure of any defogger. Mew and Zapdos have fallen out of favor, skarm really only used on stall, Excadrill is meant for sand. MegaScizor can be used, but then you give up a win con, Mandibuzz also a choice, but no offensive pressure, Most interesting option I've seen is Starmie.
This isn't to say all Balance teams are the exact same there is some swapping out of members, I see Gliscor, Hippo, Alomomomola, Celebi, and slowbro sometimes. Other times they throw in an offensive mon or two, or go even bulkier with chansey or something, but overally lot of these teams are similar.
So anyone else seeing this?
Anyone else wish people would be more innovative.
I know this is quite standard for people to use a lot of the same things, but it seems really bad now, in addition this is a new meta where people usually test out new stuff, but yet are using the same old mons.
Seems like I face some sort of balance team every game I play. Its literally ScarfLando-T, Rotom-W, heatran, ferrothorn, clefable, and Latia@s every where i go, not saying these mons are bad, but just seems everyone is using them, i wish there was more variety. Only trouble though, i'm wondering is there any room for improvement?
Lando-T is pretty much best scarfer, only niche for another is basically surprise factor.
Rotom-W is amazing pivot with great typing, not much can do what it can do.
Heatran again has unique typing with key resists and bulk
Ferro is prob the most replaceable as there are other bulky grass types, but really that steel type is clutch.
Clefable has great typing and immune to those dragon types. I've seen Sylveon replace it as it can hit harder, but clefable's abilities usually give it the edge. Altaria also used if this is where you want your megaslot.
Lati@s have the most offensive and defensive pressure of any defogger. Mew and Zapdos have fallen out of favor, skarm really only used on stall, Excadrill is meant for sand. MegaScizor can be used, but then you give up a win con, Mandibuzz also a choice, but no offensive pressure, Most interesting option I've seen is Starmie.
This isn't to say all Balance teams are the exact same there is some swapping out of members, I see Gliscor, Hippo, Alomomomola, Celebi, and slowbro sometimes. Other times they throw in an offensive mon or two, or go even bulkier with chansey or something, but overally lot of these teams are similar.
So anyone else seeing this?
Anyone else wish people would be more innovative.
I know this is quite standard for people to use a lot of the same things, but it seems really bad now, in addition this is a new meta where people usually test out new stuff, but yet are using the same old mons.
Well, the only real new mons are Megas, and there's not a lot of them to begin with, plus they compete for a single slot so you're not statistically going to see new mons as often as you would at the start of a generation. And there's always gonna be some bit of centralisation, I consider us lucky that this time it's around glue-mons (because all the guys you mentioned are really just team-fillers, good ones of course, the best really) as opposed to single scary threats like MKang or MMence.
Give it time; innovators are rare, but a stable meta like this one is possibly the best time to find them. And if you're really desperate, well, there's always the next suspect test to look forward to. (Which I do. For reasons involving frogs.)
I tested it now on ps and it's actually true, it does not work. I feel embarassed. I guess the two guys on the ladder I used this against (that didn't even have a bad rating) did not know that either and didn't try to switch their sableye out. I'll edit my post. :[
replay w/ raging: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-193115127
Also fuck these XY trapping mechanics not even skillful trapping strats works on that fucking little demon or whatever it is damn it :[
EDIT: At least Absol is still a lord
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