Empoleon [0/3]

Empoleon


Overview
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+ Many Resistances with its interesting typing.
+ On a balanced team, Empoleon is one of the few checks to Greninja (Barring Low Kick).
+ Solid Special Bulk.
+ Access to support moves such as Stealth Rock, Roar, and Defog.
+ Great Special Attack.
+ One of the very few Defog users that also resists Stealth Rock.
+ Decent supporter, which is its primary role.
- Common weaknesses that hinder its potential as a special support Pokemon.
- Lack of reliable recovery makes it easy to wear down.
- Low Speed.

Utility
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Name: Utility
Move 1: Defog / Stealth Rock
Move 2: Toxic / Stealth Rock
Move 3: Scald
Move 4: Roar
Ability: Torrent
Item: Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Df / 252 SpD
Nature: Calm

Moves
========
  • Defog is present to remove hazards and screens for the rest of your team.
  • Decent Stealth Rock setter, as it beats Latias and Latios when they're barring Thunderbolt, prevents Excadrill from switching in due to the threat of a Scald, and does well against other Defog users such as Mandibuzz, Mega Scizor, Togekiss, and Skarmory.
  • Stealth Rock is good when your team doesn't have a Pokemon to set up Stealth Rock already, and it gives Pokemon such as Thundurus, Charizard, Pinsir, and Dragonite a tough time switching into it.
  • Toxic is there to cripple walls, limit the time a sweeper can last, and generally deal a ton of damage.
  • Scald is a decent STAB move that has a chance to burn the opponent, making their physical attacks rather weak.
  • Roar is good to prevent Wish passing, and continously rack up Stealth Rock damage. It also stops set up sweepers such as Tail Glow Manaphy, Dragon Dance Mega Gyarados, Calm Mind Mega Slowbro, Calm Mind Clefable, and Calm Mind Mega Latias.

Set Details
========

  • A Calm nature, as well as a Max Special Defence and HP investment makes Empoleon a complete special wall, making it able to live a Thunderbolt from a Thundurus, and a Thunderbolt from a Latios.
  • If one runs Defog, their only available ability is Torrent since Defiant was not available in Generation 4, which is the only generation in which Empoleon can get Defog.
  • Leftovers is useful for gaining back entry hazard damage, and stalling out the opponent with Toxic and/or Scald.
  • One has the option to use a 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Empoleon Spread, which can really help Empoleon with Pokemon such as Azumarill, Talonflame, Mega Altaria, Mega Gyarados, and Mega Aerodactyl. It is also known to easily take a Low Kick from a Greninja, making Empoleon a monstrous check to it.

Usage Tips
========

  • Empoleon can often switch in due to its massive amount of resistances (Including but not limited to Ice, Rock, Bug, Psychic, Flying, Dragon, and Fairy) as well as its decent bulk, therefore it can often set up Rocks and/or Defog them away.
  • Empoleon works well as a pivot when Attackers with little coverage over it such as Greninja, Gyarados (barring Earthquake), Azumarill (barring Superpower), Scizor (also barring Superpower), and Manaphy are on the field.
  • Scald can be used often, crippling many foes and casually lowering their HP.
  • Try to avoid Knock Off users and Will-O-Wisp users, as Empoleon has no reliable recovery moves.
  • Use Roar often to rack up Stealth Rock Damage.
  • One can often Double Switch, as Empoleon forces a lot of Pokemon to switch out. For instance, as Empoleon forces Conkeldurr out with a high frequency, one can double switch into a Pokemon such as Latias or Clefable, who counter Conkeldurr quite well.

Team Options
=========

  • Latias' access to Healing Wish, as well as its resistances to Electric and Fighting, and its immunity to Ground makes it a solid companion of Empoleon's. Empoleon also works well with Latias because Empoleon resists Dragon, Fairy, Bug, and Ice.
  • Clefable and Sylveon are known as slightly better Wish Users, and they also happen to resist Fighting, which can really assist Empoleon.
  • As Empoleon forces a lot of switches, Pokemon that benefit from Double Switches could work very well with Empoleon.
  • Gliscor and Landorus-Therian are good teammates for Empoleon, as they can both take Physical Attacks, and they resist or are immune to all of Empoleon's weaknesses.

Other Options
=========

  • Protect can be used with Toxic to stall the opponent and get Leftovers Recovery, but this set is ultimately outclassed by others such as Sylveon, and Gliscor.
  • Toxic can be replaced with another Attacking move, such as Ice Beam or Flash Cannon, but overall Toxic will do more damage and Toxic has the ability to break walls.
  • Choice Specs may sound like a decent idea considering Empoleon's diverse movepool with options like Flash Cannon, Ice Beam, Grass Knot, and even Signal Beam, but it ultimately just doesn't land well enough, and many other Pokemon do this job better. However, it can still OHKO Physically Defensive Clefable with Flash Cannon, it can 2HKO Specially Defensive Heatran with Surf, it can 2HKO A Physically Defensive Slowbro and a Physically Defensive Suicune with Grass Knot, and it can 2HKO most Dragons with Ice Beam.
  • Knock Off can be used to add more utility to Empoleon. However, many other Pokemon do the job better and Scald is generally a better option.

Checks & Counters
=========

**Fighting Types**, particularly Conkeldurr, Keldeo, and Heracross, are a nightmare for Empoleon. Conkeldurr and Heracross can use status conditions to their advantage, and hit Empoleon with a super effective STAB Physical Move to KO it with ease. Keldeo can use its Secret Sword to easily KO Empoleon.
**Trappers**, most notably Magnezone and Dugtrio, make good counters to Empoleon because they can hit Empoleon hard, and Empoleon can't do anything about it.
**Taunt** makes Empoleon almost completely useless.
**Bulky Grass Types** such as Ferrothorn, and Mega Venusaur are unable to be attacked by Empoleon barring a 30% chance burn (Also both happen to be immune to Toxic).
 
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You can't really compare Empoleon to Keldeo and Greninja. Really, they're completely different Pokémon with completely different purposes. Its movepool isn't actually that amazing either, since it can't really make use of any of its moves.
Also, mention that is has no reliable recovery, making it an iffy Defogger compared to Zapdos / Latios
 
small nitpick, but you mention the following twice:

+ Resistance to Stealth Rock.
+ One of the very few Defog users that also resists Stealth Rock.

this probably can be merged into a single point.
 

alexwolf

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- Low Speed compared to other OU defoggers, such as Mandibuzz and Zapdos.
- Abilities in Defiant and Torrent ranging from Mediocre to Useless.
- Unlike defoggers such as Scizor, its Attack Stat isn't really present.
- Defence Stat isn't the greatest.
- Weakness to Ground, and Fighting moves, both of which are very common in OU.
- Very susceptible to taunt.
- Large Movepool, but not able to use it to its full potential.
- Lack of recovery outside of Rest, a big disadvantage compared to other Defog Users.
Remove all of that and instead mention these:

- Common weaknesses that hinder its potential as a special support Pokemon
- Lack of reliable recovery makes it easy to wear down
- Low Speed

Remove Surf from the main set, it's not even OO material. Slash Stealth Rock after Toxic as well. Also, remove the bit that says Defog + SR shouldn't be used together, that's just false. Mention that Empoleon is a decent Stealth Rock setter because it beats Lati@s without Thunderbolt, prevents Excadrill from switching in with the threat of Scald, and beats other Defog users, such as Mega Scizor, Mandibuzz, and Skarmory. Mention some Pokemon that Roar helps deal with, such as Manaphy, CM Slowbro, CM Clefable, SubDD (Mega) Gyarados, and CM Mega Latias.

Add an alternative spread focused on physical bulk, which lets Empoleon deal better with Azumarill, Talonflame, Mega Altaria, Mega Gyarados, Mega Aerodactyl, and regular Gyarados. For now, just mention a 252 HP / 252 Def+ nature, though i am sure there is a better spread.

QC team, you think a Specs set still deserves a main set?
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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Not QC, but I have a few comments.

Overview:
  • Torrent actually isnt useless, as firing off a torrent boosted scald hurts quite a bit. It's not great, I just wouldnt call it useless.
  • I feel like some of the points here could be condensed, as many are just repeating what others have said.
  • Mention that it is one of the few checks to greninja on balanced teams, especially those lacking low kick.
Moves:
  • Get rid of surf entirely. The extra 10 BP is nothing compared to scald's 30% chance to burn. The rule of thumb in competitive is that if something has scald, just dont use surf.
  • Be specific what roar does. It phases out CM Clefable, DD Mega Gyarados, etc.
  • Toxic is mainly to hit bulky water-types such as rotom-w that can usually pivot into a scald, as poison is much more detrimental to them as opposed to a burn.
Set Details:
  • Saying that with max spdef and calm nature allows you to live Thundurus's thunderbolt is irrelevant, as empoleon has no reason to stay in on an electric type. Also, thunderbolt on latios isnt very common.
  • I would give a good mention to a physically defensive or mixed spread here to to better handle Low Kick Greninja and Azumarill.
  • At the very most, defiant should be in OO, definitely not set details.
Other Options:
  • No Assault Vest. This is terrible on a support Pokemon such as empoleon, meaning that it cannot use SR / Defog / Toxic / Roar.
C&C:
  • I dont exactly understand why you are mentioning specific pokemon. That really isnt the policy with checks and counters, you are supposed to group them into sections.
Edit: semi ninja'd by alexwolf zzz

Edit 2: QC team - I saw a spread somewhere, I think on an RMT which is 252 / 200+ / 56 that avoids the 2HKO from standard greninja's low kick. Thoughts?
 
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Mention that Empoleon is a decent Stealth Rock setter because it beats Lati@s without Thunderbolt, prevents Excadrill from switching in with the threat of Scald, and beats other Defog users, such as Mega Scizor, Mandibuzz, and Skarmory.
Sorry, but where would you want me to put this? I'm not sure if this belongs in the overview, or in the set details.

Add an alternative spread focused on physical bulk, which lets Empoleon deal better with Azumarill, Talonflame, Mega Altaria, Mega Gyarados, Mega Aerodactyl, and regular Gyarados. For now, just mention a 252 HP / 252 Def+ nature, though i am sure there is a better spread.
Should I do a whole other analysis on this, or would you just like me to mention it?

  • At the very most, defiant should be in OO, definitely not set details.
It's not really reccomending Defiant, it's just stating that Defiant and Defog are incompatible.

  • I dont exactly understand why you are mentioning specific pokemon. That really isnt the policy with checks and counters, you are supposed to group them into sections.
The thing is that with Mega Charizard X, and Magnezone, there aren't really Pokemon that can be mentioned with it, since both have unique traits that make them excellent counters to Empoleon.

Otherwise, I've implemented all that's been mentioned. Thanks, guys.
 

alexwolf

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Mention the stuff i said about SR under the Moves section and the physically defensive spread under the Set Details section. Also, you forgot to slash SR after Toxic.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
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Empoleon should be careful when switching into Azumarill or Scizor. Both like to carry Knock Off (Azumarill more than Scizor) and almost all offensive Scizor run Superpower.

252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 356-420 (95.6 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (guaranteed after Stealth Rock)

You can't even check offensive variants unless it has a Superpower drop from hitting something else.

Also mention that Greninja always 2HKOs if it carries Low Kick.

40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 250-296 (67.2 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 

TheEnder

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okay, this needs to be done:

remove surf from moves, it is trash in comparasin to scald

remove toxic from oo, you have it in the main set

mention cm clef under roar targets

mention low kick greninja as a reason to run phys def

elaborate on what pokemon can take advantage of the switches empleon forces: what does it draw in, and what can use those pokemon to set up / break holes

mention bulky grass-types in c&c, emp cant do anything aside from burning, and gets worn down

most taunt users don't really /appreciate/ taking scalds, do they? i don't know, really, you could say which taunt users beat empoelon

elaborate on how specs beats common switch-ins with grass knot and ice beam
 
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Martin

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When you mention the PhysDef spread in set details, make a special note of how it allows Empoleon to beat 40 Atk variants of Greninja more reliably.

40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 174-211 (46.7 - 56.7%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Still not a 100% answer to it, but Greninja is going to need two very high roles to take it out from full health, and I feel that it should be the main spread until (and if) Greninja goes to ubers as Empoleon's main niche in OU is as a Greninja check and it can easily tank anything else that Greninja can throw at it:

40/44 Atk variants
  • 212 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 138-164 (37 - 44%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 212 SpA Life Orb Greninja Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 138-164 (37 - 44%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 208 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 103-122 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- 75.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 212 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 95-113 (25.5 - 30.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • [for the lolz] Greninja Gunk Shot vs. Empoleon: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
4 Atk variants (which you can guarantee won't carry Low Kick)
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 97-116 (26 - 31.1%) -- 8.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 142-169 (38.1 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 142-169 (38.1 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 109-129 (29.3 - 34.6%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • [for the lolz (again)] Greninja Gunk Shot vs. Empoleon: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
Really, there is very little reason for it to run SpD in the meta as it is ATM, and the ability to take Thundurus' Thunderbolt is kind of pointless as you shouldn't be trying to take on Thundurus with Empoleon in the first place unless you are trying to pivot around HP Ice, and even then it usually isn't worth it as the risk of a Thunderbolt on the switch is too great.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
When you mention the PhysDef spread in set details, make a special note of how it allows Empoleon to beat 40 Atk variants of Greninja more reliably.

40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 174-211 (46.7 - 56.7%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Still not a 100% answer to it, but Greninja is going to need two very high roles to take it out from full health, and I feel that it should be the main spread until (and if) Greninja goes to ubers as Empoleon's main niche in OU is as a Greninja check and it can easily tank anything else that Greninja can throw at it:

40/44 Atk variants
  • 212 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 138-164 (37 - 44%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 212 SpA Life Orb Greninja Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 138-164 (37 - 44%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 208 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 103-122 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- 75.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 212 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 95-113 (25.5 - 30.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • [for the lolz] Greninja Gunk Shot vs. Empoleon: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
4 Atk variants (which you can guarantee won't carry Low Kick)
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 97-116 (26 - 31.1%) -- 8.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 142-169 (38.1 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 142-169 (38.1 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Empoleon: 109-129 (29.3 - 34.6%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • [for the lolz (again)] Greninja Gunk Shot vs. Empoleon: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
Really, there is very little reason for it to run SpD in the meta as it is ATM, and the ability to take Thundurus' Thunderbolt is kind of pointless as you shouldn't be trying to take on Thundurus with Empoleon in the first place unless you are trying to pivot around HP Ice, and even then it usually isn't worth it as the risk of a Thunderbolt on the switch is too great.
Low Kick has an 80% chance to 2HKO with SR up, plus you now take ~40% from Dark Pulse.

40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 174-211 (46.7 - 56.7%) -- 81.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
212 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 140-165 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


I personally think it shouldn't even be mentioned unless it lets Empoleon deal with something important (can't think of anything atm), especially since Magnezone now does like 85% to you and you won't be able to Roar it out as easily as the Calm set.

252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 294-348 (79 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 210-248 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 

Martin

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Low Kick has an 80% chance to 2HKO with SR up, plus you now take ~40% from Dark Pulse.

40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 174-211 (46.7 - 56.7%) -- 81.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
212 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 140-165 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


I personally think it shouldn't even be mentioned unless it lets Empoleon deal with something important (can't think of anything atm), especially since Magnezone now does like 85% to you and you won't be able to Roar it out as easily as the Calm set.
252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Empoleon: 294-348 (79 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 210-248 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
True. I can't believe i forgot rocks :[[[

but yea when mentioning PhysDef in set details make a special mention of Gren.
 

boltsandbombers

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Can you please explain why you have individual pokemon in C&C? Honestly, just put them into sections of "x-types" or "setup sweepers" or "wallbreakers", there really is no need to mention one specific pokemon. If you really think that zard X is a big problem for empoleon, say "... Most notably, Mega Charizard X..."
Tbh I dont see Zard and much of a problem as it hates being Toxiced and Empoleon can just roar it away.
 
Remove mentions of Greninja since it is now banned.

Mention Celebi as a teammate, as it handles a number of Pokemon that Empoleon struggles with, such as Keldeo, Thundurus, and Breloom.
 

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