Metagame NP: RU Stage 5: Gods and Monsters (HOUNDOOMINITE IS BL2, READ POST #178)

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The Leprechaun

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Although hikari covered it pretty comprehensibly, there are still other reasons why scarf melo is effective.
First of all, with the decline of doublade, it no longer needs to run shadow ball to revenge it. This opens up a slot for trick, which of course is a huge move on choice scarf users. While scarftres is generally seen as deadweight against defensive teams, trick meloetta allows you to cripple 1 Mon on the opposing team as well as allowing it to be more effective because of the virtue of switching up moves.
Something that not many scarfers can boast is the ability to revenge kill mons hiding behind sub's with hypervoice. Notably, bulk up braviary and anything which has received a sub from bp bunny. Other scarfers which have this ability include exploud, cincinno, yanma and shellder :]
What's more is that scarf melo has actually got better this gen thanks to the fact that new threats can beat melo's checks easily thanks to u-turn. This includes pangoro, lopunny and houndoom, all of which destroy esca, shiftry, tomb and skuntank.
I also want to mention that some of the points bouff made were pretty ballsack. "It finds it difficult to get past walls" this reminds me of pretty much all scarfers. Scarf moltres (apprently the paragon of scarfers) can't touch shit like alom, aromatisse and rhyperior but no one gives a fuck. It's not meant to wall break, it's a check to offensive teams. And as I've already mentioned, with trick scarf, melo is actually more useful against defensive teams than most scarfers. "It sucks because it's pursuit bait for spiritomb and esca" huh, this reminds of literally every other melo set (excluding relic song of course). If this is a legitimate reason for calling melo ineffective then why consider any variant as a threat at all? I mean tomb and esca switch in just as easily to specs as they do to scarf."its stab moves are not good enough to clean late game" 2 100% accurate base 90 power moves which have a good match up against the offensive mons of this tier looks pretty good to me. Especially when coming of one of the highest attacking stats in the tier.

I guess what this comes down to is if you build a bad team around a mon with a sub optimal set, then proceed to play badly with it, you're gonna have a bad view of it. The idea that scarf melo is garbage is utter bollocks. But that's just me.
 
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aVocado

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Also I just wanna mention that in that game bouff posted scarf Meloetta did exactly what it's supposed to do, kill Lopunny and weaken/take out some faster threats lol (if you ran Psychic that would've been a kill on Cobalion). It also tanked Clawitzer's hit (no dark pulse?) like a pro. I don't see how it's an example of scarf Meloetta being bad..
 

GlassGlaceon

My heart has now been set on love
i aint got time for these amateurs



LOL IDC ABOUT THE HATERS TRY AND SHOOT ME DOWN AGAIN

Scyther still remains a formidable force in this metagame. Scyther can pull off many roles due to it's nice BST, movepool, and ability. It's also very unfriendly to the grass and psychic-filled metagame Yes it's 4x weak to rocks, yes it has 4MSS on some of it's sets, and if one more person tries brushing this thing off without even giving it a proper shot then imma call my squad and we gon put some shots on em ~ Bobby Shmurda

im in love (Scyther) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aerial Ace
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Bug Bite

with the CoCo (Scyther) @ Eviolite
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Baton Pass
- Aerial Ace
- Roost

i got it for the (Scyther) @ Choice Band
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aerial Ace
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Bug Bite

low low (Scyther) @ Life Orb
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aerial Ace
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Bug Bite

Ok, now time to explain myself. And boy with this do I have a lot to explain. Stats & moves & abilities, uses, conclusion:

Stats/Typing: Scyther sits at a formidable 105 speed tier, very high up in the RU metagame. Outspeeding everything up to Delphox is very useful, and it just barely falls short of the musketeers if it so chooses to not run a choice scarf. Scyther has a base attack stat of 110, which is great but not outstanding. Then you see Scyther gets the ability technician which boosts the power of most of the main Stab moves it will be using. Scyther isn't even horribly frail, sporting 70/80/80 defenses that can be further boosted with eviolite. Scyther's typing is a mixed bag, leaving it 4x weak to rocks but immune to every other entry hazard. It has some common weaknesses in electric, flying, and fire, but also sports nice resistances to fighting, grass, bug, and an immunity to ground. Offensively, Scyther's typing is great in a tier filled with Psychic, Grass, Fighting, and Flying types and with more that have just come, scyther is just getting better.

Moves: Scyther will normally be running one of three types of sets. Offensive support, all-out attacking because of a choice item, or setup sweeper. Scyther's stab moves in bug bite and aerial ace both get boosted by technician, which makes them sit at a respectable 90 BP before stab. Another pro about scyther's moves is that they are both 100% accurate. This is very nice, as scyther becomes a more reliable revenge killer than if it just had 70-90% accurate moves.

Abilities: Technician

Uses: As stated above, Scyther has 4 main sets that it will run and I'll go through all of them.

Choice Band/Choice Scarf: CB and CS Scyther are both very nice in their own respective ways. CB Scyther hits like a truck, ohkoing and 2HKo'ing the various grass, psychich, and fighting types that infest this tier. Choice Scarf scyther retains good power while revenging some of the most dangerous thing in the tier after they're slightly weakened, such as all revenge killers do. Jolly Choice Scarf scyther also has the added benefit of outspeeding Adamant +1 mega sharpedo and ohkoing it with bug bite. Scyther also outspeeds and revenges (with CB and CS respectively)...Delphox, Virizion, Mega Lopunny, Houndoom, the Hitmons, and more. Scyther also has 100% accurate moves like I said earlier which makes it a ton more reliable in an important match than things w/out 100% accurate moves like moltres. There's nothing worse than missing your chance to get revenge on the thing that killed you :[

Bulky SD: Bulky Swords Dance is essentially the Stall Killer. For any stall team not packing a form of phazing, this thing can come through and wreak havoc in more ways than one. Scyther can just freely setup against most stall mons and with added bulk from the evio stone, take most attacks thrown at it. The best part is, scyther can pass these boosts out to something more threatening if the opponent decides to send in a counter.

Offensive SD: The one I've had the least experience with but still fun to use from the short time in which i did use it, offensive SD scyther fares well against a lot of balanced teams and makes a good partner to mega lobunny as this thing eats cress up for breakfast. Huge power behind a life orb and potentially behind a swords dance can break down most balanced teams easily because they don't commonly carry resists to scyther's stabs outside of mega steelix.

Conclusion: Scyther isn't an S-Tier mon, scyther may not even be an A-tier mon, but Scyther is a very nice thing to run in the RU metagame and tbh im kinda tired of people crapping on it without even trying it. All-in-all, Scyther is a fun mon to use and ill always support it.

Rip MikeDawg
 

Molk

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Hey guys, sorry to go off topic, but i have a little announcement to make :).

Because of a combination of how close the vote was and multiple requests, the RU Council will be officially revisiting Lopunnite next Sunday

Honestly i really really wanted this to be our first suspect test instead of a revote, but there were quite a few outside factors that sadly stopped us from doing that (UU's voting on Lopunnite in the near future too, another tier potentially banning the suspect in the middle of the test is dumb, tier shifts are in jan, the pokemon leaving the tier during the test is dumb, and spl's coming around, if we wait for at least one of those events to pass before starting the suspect test RU won't be ready in time :x).

After we vote, i'm 100% sure that it will be the final council vote in ORAS RU for the forseeable future (i mentioned in my last post that we *might* have to do another council vote on Lopunnite ;-;), if anything else pops up, it'll be suspect tested as usual.


Anyways, i decided to make this post in advance for two reasons.

1) to simply let you guys know what's going on, looking back i might not have done that well enough w/ Houndoominite

2) So you guys can provide your thoughts on Lopunnite as of now despite this sadly having to be another council vote.

SO, what do all of you think of Lopunnite as of now? Do you think it'd be better off out of the tier? Or do you think its fine in RU as of now? Has your opinion on it changed since the last time the RU council voted?
 
Originally I was all for lopunnite getting banned, but now I don't see it as much of an issue since the metagame has evolved since then. Fletchinder and several other pokemon put it in a dangerous situation and the rising usage of mega Pidgeot and mega Sceptile means it has to be careful when running an adamant nature. Gligar can take its attacks easily as long as it doesn't carry ice punch while the numerous scarfers in the tier are able to revenge kill it without too much of a worry. Doublade can also give Lopunny some issues, as it can live an unboosted HJK and KO back with sacred sword. Mega Lopunny is definitely one of the strongest pokemon in RU, but I don't believe it needs to leave the tier just yet.
 
Originally I was all for lopunnite getting banned, but now I don't see it as much of an issue since the metagame has evolved since then. Fletchinder and several other pokemon put it in a dangerous situation and the rising usage of mega Pidgeot and mega Sceptile means it has to be careful when running an adamant nature. Gligar can take its attacks easily as long as it doesn't carry ice punch while the numerous scarfers in the tier are able to revenge kill it without too much of a worry. Doublade can also give Lopunny some issues, as it can live an unboosted HJK and KO back with sacred sword. Mega Lopunny is definitely one of the strongest pokemon in RU, but I don't believe it needs to leave the tier just yet.
I feel like while those are good examples of Lopunny checks, it needs true counters to not be broken. Here's a few pokemon that I found out "counters" Lopunny for anyone who like me has gotten pissed when it 6-0s your team over and over:

Cresselia: Cresselia is a god imo. Not only does it check Lopunny but it checks probably 60% of the tier lol. Probably the best counter because it also has access to a recovery move.
252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Cresselia: 117-138 (26.3 - 31%) -- 9.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hitmontop: Lacks recovery, can easily be warn down.
-1 252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 109-130 (35.8 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Granbull: Same as Hitmontop.
-1 252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Granbull: 102-120 (26.5 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Weezing: Best recovery is Pain Split, which can at times be unreliable and even harmful.
252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 109-130 (32.6 - 38.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Alomomola: Has access to Wish, and is barely bulky enough to use it against Lopunny.
252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 104 HP / 248+ Def Alomomola: 184-217 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Aromatisse: Has access to Wish
252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 153-181 (37.6 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Golbat: Has access to Roost
252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 103-123 (29.1 - 34.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Reuniclus: Has access to Recover, and is also immune to hazards which is a plus for countering lopunny.
252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 150-177 (35.3 - 41.7%) -- 80.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Alright so that's all I can think of atm, but I'll probably add a few later. Don't get me wrong I really want Lopunny banned, just thought I'd drop a few of its counters. Notice a lot of those don't really fit on offense at all as well as get wrecked by the occasional Adamant Lopunny.
Oh yeah and Choice Scarf Scyther the Lopunny counter imo.
 
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So how viable would sub endeavour mega lopunny be, I know it has some usage in our to beat stall mons like mega slowbro etc, but I'm asking if there would be any use to using it in RU. Plus scrappy endeavour.
 

Mew2

Sex is overrated
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I feel like while those are good examples of Lopunny checks, it needs true counters to not be broken. Here's a few pokemon that I found out "counters" Lopunny for anyone who like me has gotten pissed when it 6-0s your team over and over:

Cresselia: Cresselia is a god imo. Not only does it check Lopunny but it checks probably 60% of the tier lol.
252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Cresselia: 117-138 (26.3 - 31%) -- 9.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hitmontop:
-1 252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 109-130 (35.8 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Granbull:
-1 252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Granbull: 102-120 (26.5 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Weezing:
252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 109-130 (32.6 - 38.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Alomomola:
252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 104 HP / 248+ Def Alomomola: 184-217 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Aromatisse:
252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 153-181 (37.6 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Golbat:
252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 103-123 (29.1 - 34.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Reuniclus: Not sure if anyone uses this set but whatever
252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 150-177 (35.3 - 41.7%) -- 80.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Alright so that's all I can think of atm, but I'll probably add a few later. Don't get me wrong I want Lopunny banned, but here's a few counters to consider when banning Lopunny or just team building around it. Notice a lot of those don't really fit on hyper offense as well as get wrecked by the occasional Adamant Lopunny.
Oh yeah and Choice Scarf Scyther the Lopunny counter imo.

However, many of this supposed counters lack reliable recovery and will die if they have a bit of prior damage that can be easily accomplished by having hazards on the filed and with so many good suicide leads like Accelgor and Omastar it's not hard to defeat this counters. To be honest, the only pokes that I consider to really counter Mega Bunny are Cresselia, Weezing and Reuniclus because they don't mind entry hazards, have reliable recovery (except Weezing who has Pain Split anyways) and can threaten Mega Bunny in some way.
 
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The Leprechaun

wear nike not fila
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Actually Adamant is the most common nature in Lopunny, at least in RU because she doesn't need extra speed that Jolly provides because she is already so fucking fast, but even with Adamant most of the pokemon you mentioned are pretty good counters to the most common Lopunny set. Be wary however, that many of this supposed counters lack reliable recovery and will die if they have a bit of prior damage that can be easily accomplished by having hazards on the filed and with so many good suicide leads like Accelgor and Omastar it's not hard to defeat this counters. To be honest, the only pokes that I consider to really counter Mega Bunny are Cresselia, Weezing and Reuniclus because they don't mind entry hazards, have reliable recovery (except Weezing who has Pain Split anyways) and can threaten Mega Bunny in some way.
I dunno buddy, if you're running adamant you're outsped by shit like pidgeot, jolteon, sceptile before mega evolution and maybe a couple of others I've forgotton. One of the main draws of bunny is that it destroys offence. If you're outsped by common shit on offence then obviously you're gonna be far less effective. What's more is that lopunny's damage output is already high enough, the extra 10% attack just isn't necessary most of the time.
 

Mew2

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I dunno buddy, if you're running adamant you're outsped by shit like pidgeot, jolteon, sceptile before mega evolution and maybe a couple of others I've forgotton. One of the main draws of bunny is that it destroys offence. If you're outsped by common shit on offence then obviously you're gonna be far less effective. What's more is that lopunny's damage output is already high enough, the extra 10% attack just isn't necessary most of the time.
You are totally right, I remember a couple of weeks ago certain poster said that Mega Lop's best nature was Adamant because she didn't need to run Jolly to outspeed Crobat like in UU, I fixed my post. However, my point still stands; most of Lopunny's supposed counters are easily worn down by residual damage and hazards and therefore aren't as reliable as you'd think, Mega-Lopunny needs to go.
 
However, many of this supposed counters lack reliable recovery and will die if they have a bit of prior damage that can be easily accomplished by having hazards on the filed and with so many good suicide leads like Accelgor and Omastar it's not hard to defeat this counters. To be honest, the only pokes that I consider to really counter Mega Bunny are Cresselia, Weezing and Reuniclus because they don't mind entry hazards, have reliable recovery (except Weezing who has Pain Split anyways) and can threaten Mega Bunny in some way.
That's true, I should have probably added a note of which have a reliable recovery or not, because most of these are easily beaten by switching and prior damage.
 
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I'm pro-ban with Lopunnite. While its definitely not as blatantly broken as other mons quickbanned, it's really unhealthy to the tier. It puts a huge constraint on offensive teams, both in teambuilding and in battle, so much so that its a detriment to their development in the metagame. It's not necessarily a slouch against bulkier teams with a SubPass set, which takes advantage of its switch-ins and is pretty effective in general. Counters do exist to Lopunny, but that doesn't make it not broken, especially when you consider that they don't really fit on offense. Offensive teams need to run either a Fletchinder or some scarfer such as Moltres(semi unreliable because blind) or Meloetta in order to actually beat it, and, unless you switch in Moltres into a HJK without rocks up or something, of which it can only take two, you're sacking a Pokemon in order to actually switch in your answer to it. There's no counterplay for it against offense, which is a pretty generalized playstyle that it can beat rather easily. This is what makes it unhealthy and thus should be banned.
 


Audino @ Audinite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Dazzling Gleam / Hyper Voice
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

STAB move of choice depends on whether you want to hit stuff slightly harder or if you prefer the superior mono coverage Dazzling Gleam provides. Everything else is standard. This thing's bulk is actually on par with Suicune's, so make use of that. Immunity to Trick is neat as fuck too, although the only user of that on the top of my head is Rotom-C.

Use it to pivot strong attackers during earlier phases of the game. You can actually outmaneuver Choice Specs Dragalge by switching on its Draco Meteor and forcing it out or setting up on it if it uses a Poison-type move. Only works before you evolve though. You're sort of weak before racking up a decent amount of boosts, so keep that in mind.
I know this is a tad old but I've been using Crodino on my stall team and I just want to post my thoughts.

The normal typing really blows on it. Normal typing offers nothing in terms of resistances and leaves it vulnerable to fighting types. It's a Fairy type that can't beat what Fairys are supposed to beat. The two most relevant fighting types beat it. Hitmonlee 2HKO's while Jolly M-Lopunny 3HKO's but since Crodino obviously relies on RestTalk M-Lopunny can beat it unless Sleep Talk rolls Dazzling Gleam twice in a row (or Lopunny can just Encore). Crodino just really doesn't wall many threats other than M-Sharpedo.

It is also incredibly easy to wear down. The lack of Leftovers and the reliance on RestTalk really hamper M-Audino's ability to recover HP. This makes it almost necessary to run a Wish Passer (which all stall teams should have). But again the Normal-Fairy typing really limits M-Audino. The Normal-Fairy typing conflicts with the most relevant wish passers and clerics (Aromatisse, Audino, Lickilicky?) leaving Alomomola as the only viable one which isn't a cleric

I know its a great win condition for stall but other than that it can't really help stall. It doesn't really offer any support and doesn't really wall anything significant. I feel like I'm down 5-6 until anything that can 3HKO it is weakened.
 
Offense cant switch in to lopunny, but lopunny cant switch in to offense.

Dont see a problem personally :^]
Lopunny outspeeds virtually everything but scarfers in offensive teams, that's the problem. There are priority users but not even the strongest one get a kill after two SR switch ins: 252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny: 187-221 (69 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. So unless you are planning to run Physically defensive Aromatisse / Alomomola or defensive Cress in your offensive team (gotta kill that momentum!), Lopunny is going to be a huge threat.

Offense's best option against Lopunny is running Sticky Web and keeping that up, which is not impossible but difficult.
 

atomicllamas

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This isn't about Mega Lopunny, but me and Hot N Cold (shout out to him for the basis of the set) were talking a couple days ago about how much of a monster Swords Dance Pangoro is for stall to face, and I finally got a chance to test it out so I figured I would post about what makes this mon so incredibly difficult for defensive teams to deal with.

Pangoro @ Life Orb / Lum Berry
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance
- Poison Jab / Gunk Shot

SD panda sits at an excellent Speed tier for a wall breaker with base 58 speed, and while normally I would suggest going Adamant, Jolly lets you do a lot of important things, most importantly you out speed Modest Exploud (by one point!) and you out speed Golbat unless it has a lot of creep on it (shout out to Molk for pointing this out). The choice between Life Orb and Lum Berry (and thus Poison Jab and Gunk Shot) comes down to what kind of risks you want to take, Lum + Gunk lets you set up on potential Scald burns from Alomomola, but requires you use Gunk Shot to get the kill on certain Fairy-types, where as Poison Jab and Life Orb makes setting up on Scald riskier but allows you to destroy fairies with no risk of missing. Life Orb also allows you to hit harder with your STAB moves than the lum variant can.

offensive calcs:

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Pangoro Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Granbull: 291-343 (75.7 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Pangoro Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 387-458 (95.3 - 112.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Pangoro Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 104 HP / 248+ Def Alomomola: 331-391 (66.5 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Pangoro Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Amoonguss: 398-468 (92.1 - 108.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Pangoro Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 239-282 (67.7 - 79.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Defensive Calcs:
0 Atk Golbat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pangoro: 264-312 (79.7 - 94.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
rest don't matter it loses to fairies and tanks other non SE hits from bulky mons w/ ease.


There are a couple ways for Stall to reliably defeat Panda 1v1 and a speed creeping Golbat can even switch in, although it hates taking Knock Off, but the following two pokemon are probably your best bet in terms of fitting them on a stall team and beating Pangoro.

Cresselia (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 72 Def / 64 SpA / 124 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: NaN Atk
- Moonblast
- Psyshock / Moonlight
- Calm Mind
- Substitute

124 Speed EVs out speed Jolly panda, while 64 Special Attack EVs guarantee the OHKO w/ Moonblast after Stealth Rock.

Golbat @ Eviolite
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 248 HP / 176 Def / 84 Spe
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Toxic
- Defog

84 Speed EVs let you out speed Jolly Panda and BB + LO recoil should be able to knock it out.


So yeah I guess what I'm saying is if you hate stall take Jolly SD panda out for a spin and if you run stall you should probably be trying to adjust to this set, as it is currently a huge threat in the meta game. The nice thing about SD Panda is that it is also pretty useful against offense because it has STAB Knock Off and good enough bulk to take some neutral hits, while out speeding opposing wall breakers like Modest Exploud. Has anyone else tried this set out? What have you been using to deal with this mon if you have been using defensive mons? Is this proof that semi-stall will always be a better play style than stall? (yes)

n_n
 
To be fair Spirit's post sums up why Lopunny is not a good presence in the tier. Kableye posted a lost of reliable Lopunny check but those, as he also said, are not viable on offensive teams and some of them eveb risk losing to Substitute + Power Up Punch / Baton Pass sets.
I feel like while those are good examples of Lopunny checks, it needs true counters to not be broken. Here's a few pokemon that I found out "counters" Lopunny for anyone who like me has gotten pissed when it 6-0s your team over and over:

Cresselia: Cresselia is a god imo. Not only does it check Lopunny but it checks probably 60% of the tier lol. Probably the best counter because it also has access to a recovery move.
252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Cresselia: 117-138 (26.3 - 31%) -- 9.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hitmontop: Lacks recovery, can easily be warn down.
-1 252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 109-130 (35.8 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Granbull: Same as Hitmontop.
-1 252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Granbull: 102-120 (26.5 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Weezing: Best recovery is Pain Split, which can at times be unreliable and even harmful.
252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 109-130 (32.6 - 38.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Alomomola: Has access to Wish, and is barely bulky enough to use it against Lopunny.
252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 104 HP / 248+ Def Alomomola: 184-217 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Aromatisse: Has access to Wish
252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 153-181 (37.6 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Golbat: Has access to Roost
252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 103-123 (29.1 - 34.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Reuniclus: Has access to Recover, and is also immune to hazards which is a plus for countering lopunny.
252 Atk Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 150-177 (35.3 - 41.7%) -- 80.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Alright so that's all I can think of atm, but I'll probably add a few later. Don't get me wrong I really want Lopunny banned, just thought I'd drop a few of its counters. Notice a lot of those don't really fit on offense at all as well as get wrecked by the occasional Adamant Lopunny.
Oh yeah and Choice Scarf Scyther the Lopunny counter imo.
Lopunny gives teams an unfair advantage in matchups against offensive teams who can only really switch into it with intimidate users such as bulky Qwilfish and offensive Granbull (who doesn't look too great to me) and can reliably retaliate only with revenge killers such as Choice Scarf Meloetta (which after having tried is a pretty cool Pokemon ngl) and Fletchinder (i guess scarf Lee too but it isn't that great). There really isn't much to say that hasn't already been said and i am just looking forward to Lopunny getting banned (hopefully) to have more freedom in building offense and such :/

Also
This isn't about Mega Lopunny, but me and Hot N Cold (shout out to him for the basis of the set) were talking a couple days ago about how much of a monster Swords Dance Pangoro is for stall to face, and I finally got a chance to test it out so I figured I would post about what makes this mon so incredibly difficult for defensive teams to deal with.

Pangoro @ Life Orb / Lum Berry
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance
- Poison Jab / Gunk Shot

SD panda sits at an excellent Speed tier for a wall breaker with base 58 speed, and while normally I would suggest going Adamant, Jolly lets you do a lot of important things, most importantly you out speed Modest Exploud (by one point!) and you out speed Golbat unless it has a lot of creep on it (shout out to Molk for pointing this out). The choice between Life Orb and Lum Berry (and thus Poison Jab and Gunk Shot) comes down to what kind of risks you want to take, Lum + Gunk lets you set up on potential Scald burns from Alomomola, but requires you use Gunk Shot to get the kill on certain Fairy-types, where as Poison Jab and Life Orb makes setting up on Scald riskier but allows you to destroy fairies with no risk of missing. Life Orb also allows you to hit harder with your STAB moves than the lum variant can.

offensive calcs:

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Pangoro Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Granbull: 291-343 (75.7 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Pangoro Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 387-458 (95.3 - 112.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Pangoro Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 104 HP / 248+ Def Alomomola: 331-391 (66.5 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Pangoro Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Amoonguss: 398-468 (92.1 - 108.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Pangoro Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 239-282 (67.7 - 79.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Defensive Calcs:
0 Atk Golbat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pangoro: 264-312 (79.7 - 94.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
rest don't matter it loses to fairies and tanks other non SE hits from bulky mons w/ ease.
I have used this set quite a bit long with stuff that troubles offense and Paralysis support from Cresselia and to be honest it is just great. Its great power, even unboosted, and ease in setting up especially with Lum Berry (the item which i prefer the most to set up on Alomomola and sometimes even bluff Choice Band) make it very scary for slower teams that sometimes can't even retaliate back without losing more to Drain Punch and hate Knock Off anyway.
Also Iron Head is probably better than Poison Jab for Flinch chance and to hit ROCK WITH EYES n-n
 

Holiday

on my best behavior
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I'm at school so I might build on this later.

First time around, I was Pro-Bunny. I felt like the fact Fletchinder, Cresselia, and Granbull could revenge/wall it was enough of a reason to keep it; however, this time around, I am Pro-Ban for the reasoning I stated above.

As an avid OU player that has made suspects for Mega Kang and Mega Mawile, the same reasoning for each one being banned also applies here.

Mega Kangaskhan had pretty much 3 counters/checks (Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn, Sableye, and Cofagrigus) and without running one of them you pretty much got boned.

Mega Mawile, however, was slightly more managable depending on your set. Standard SD/Play Rough/Sucker Punch/(Fire Fang, Iron Head, Sub etc) could be blocked by Skarmory, Heatran, Arcanine, among others. However, all of Mawile's counters were destroyed by Sub/Focus Punch/SD/Filler just due to the sheer power it packed.

Mega Lopunny somewhat combines these two traits. You're forced to run certain pokemon to stop it, and some of these pokemon cannot stop all sets effectively. Sure, it can be stopped, but only by (usually) following these guidelines (specific Pokemon and Sets, and knowing which set it has) and honestly, the fact that you must run the same 1-2 pokemon on each team to stop a pokemon is just too overcentralizing.

TL; DR- Ban Mega Bunny, too overcentralizing
 

Lemonade

WOOPAGGING
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I haven't used Jolly but I've done SD Taunt Lum which is kind of cool as well, it's a lot of what is Fairy? and does ok against Mola since it can't heal up or Toxic you fsr if it were to do that. I guess Taunt doesn't do too much eh idk
 
So Lopunny was banned by extension due to UU (and so was Megalade but that's already taken care of). Finally THE BUNNY is gone, so how do you think RU will change now in the wake of THE BUNNY being gone?
 

Molk

Godlike Usmash
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Hey guys, sorry to go off topic, but i have a little announcement to make :).

Because of a combination of how close the vote was and multiple requests, the RU Council will be officially revisiting Lopunnite next Sunday

Honestly i really really wanted this to be our first suspect test instead of a revote, but there were quite a few outside factors that sadly stopped us from doing that (UU's voting on Lopunnite in the near future too, another tier potentially banning the suspect in the middle of the test is dumb, tier shifts are in jan, the pokemon leaving the tier during the test is dumb, and spl's coming around, if we wait for at least one of those events to pass before starting the suspect test RU won't be ready in time :x).

After we vote, i'm 100% sure that it will be the final council vote in ORAS RU for the forseeable future (i mentioned in my last post that we *might* have to do another council vote on Lopunnite ;-;), if anything else pops up, it'll be suspect tested as usual.


Anyways, i decided to make this post in advance for two reasons.

1) to simply let you guys know what's going on, looking back i might not have done that well enough w/ Houndoominite

2) So you guys can provide your thoughts on Lopunnite as of now despite this sadly having to be another council vote.

SO, what do all of you think of Lopunnite as of now? Do you think it'd be better off out of the tier? Or do you think its fine in RU as of now? Has your opinion on it changed since the last time the RU council voted?
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-oras-uu-stage-1-changes.3522744/page-13#post-5924363

welp, never mind that! UU ended up banning it for real this time x.x
 

aVocado

@ Everstone
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I'm gonna post some thoughts on the metagame right now and what I feel about it, while talking about other stuff:

Right now, offense in general is a rare sight, and the ladder is filled with either bulky offense or balance. I haven't encountered straight up offense/hyper offense/stall very often. Registeel and Bronzong have also been on the rise for a while now, especially Bronzong, and this is caused pretty much solely by Dragalge. There are a number of reasons for this [the decline of offense], and I'm not gonna sugarcoat it. The introduction of Mega Lopunny, Pidgeot, Sceptile, Sharpedo, and in turn the rise of Fletchinder are all reasons for the decline of offense, and the buff to some Pokemon like Dragalge, Tyrantrum, or Pangoro (which made them fucking scary wallbreakers) forced people to take a more defensive approach when building their teams. Things like the aforementioned Registeel or Bronzong became pretty much a staple, and they're often accompanied by the said wallbreakers, with fast sweepers like the 4 mentioned megas or Scarf Moltres/Meloetta.

I've tried out some offensive teams but they were mostly slaughtered by Mega Sharpedo. Not by Lopunny, not Sceptile, but Sharpedo. And the reason to that is because Mega Sharpedo's bulk allows it to survive an Acrobatics from Fletchinder at full as well as a Mach Punch from Hitmonlee, while bypassing all scarfers thanks to Speed Boost. Mega Sharpedo is criminally underrated, and the buffs to Defense and Special Defense it got are extremely helpful. Look at these calcs for comparison:

252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sharpedo: 271-321 (96.4 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Sharpedo: 180-213 (64 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sharpedo: 297-349 (105.6 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sharpedo: 207-244 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sharpedo: 354-421 (125.9 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Sharpedo: 237-281 (84.3 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

It can actually tank a hit now, and without Life Orb it means it isn't easily worn down either. On the other hand, Lopunny -as everyone knows by now- is also insane against offense, but that could at least be checked/revenge killed by Fletchinder or scarfers. Pidgeot and Sceptile also fall in the same category as Lopunny while having a couple more checks like Tyrantrum (in Pidgeot's case) and whatnot, but it's still very threatening to offense. I'm not trying to call out Mega Sharpedo and say it's broken, I'm just saying it's extremely strong and the bulk really helps it, and that it's very underrated right now.

Also, I've been playing around with a set from XY RU that everyone seemed to have forgotten about:


Jolteon @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 68 HP / 252 SpA / 188 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]

SubPass Jolteon. With the introduction of all the new toys people forgot about Jolteon altogether, but I still think it's pretty good. It's got 130 speed which falls short of Lopunny and Sceptile, but still gets the jump on Pidgeot, and while that's 1 of the reasons I'm using it it's not the only one. Jolteon forces quite a number of switches to Pokemon like Sceptile, Dragalge, and Amoonguss, and when using it in tandem with Pokemon that take advantage of those switch-ins, they get a chance to really shine. I've been using it alongside CB Tyrantrum and Pidgeot, and they work pretty nicely. The EVs outspeed Mega Pidgeot (and Scarf Emboar lol), and I'm using HP Ice mainly to OHKO Mega Sceptile after rocks, as I outspeed base form Sceptile which is nice:

252 SpA Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sceptile: 268-316 (95.3 - 112.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

edit: apparently lopunny was banned as I was writing this post... not bad.
 
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