ORAS In-game Tier List - Read Post #324

[Colonel M]

Uh considering a level gap - yes I actually found Mega Evolution necessary at the Elite 4 at least through my first run. Im trying to take less detours (including for Ice Beam and such) to determine how things perform. Im probably going to outlevel Flannery by a little bit this time though. Not sure.

By the way I need someone to trade with me soon so I can get Golem.

 

[Celever]

Changes Since Last Time:
Shroomish Untested --> A
Ralts (Gardevoir) S --> A
Tropius A --> B
Lileep B --> D
Lotad S --> A
Carvanha S --> A
Zigzagoon A --> B
Absol B --> A

More Discussion Needed:
Tentacool B --> A
Zubat B --> A
Oddish (Vileplume) C --> B
Swablu C --> B
Feebas C --> D
Electrike A --> S (THIS needs discussion right now, and I will post thoughts on it tomorrow)
Rhyhorn C --> B
Horsea (Trade) B --> C
Magikarp A --> S
Aron B --> A
Slakoth (Slaking) E --> D
Slakoth (Vigoroth) Untested --> C
Castform E --> D
Makuhita (Trade) A --> S
Mawile C --> B/A
Magnemite S --> A (IAR is using it in a run and will keep us updated as he plays through the game. I think S right now)

I will post some clarification on what the tiers mean for this tier list tomorrow or when I have more time.

 

[Detective Barricade]

Changes Since Last Time:
Shroomish Untested --> A
Ralts (Gardevoir) S --> A
Tropius A --> B
Lileep B --> D
Lotad S --> A
Carvanha S --> A
Zigzagoon A --> B
Absol B --> A

More Discussion Needed:
Tentacool B --> A
Zubat B --> A
Oddish (Vileplume) C --> B
Swablu C --> B
Feebas C --> D
Electrike A --> S (THIS needs discussion right now, and I will post thoughts on it tomorrow)
Rhyhorn C --> B
Horsea (Trade) B --> C
Magikarp A --> S
Aron B --> A
Slakoth (Slaking) E --> D
Slakoth (Vigoroth) Untested --> C
Castform E --> D
Makuhita (Trade) A --> S
Mawile C --> B/A
Magnemite S --> A (IAR is using it in a run and will keep us updated as he plays through the game. I think S right now)

I will post some clarification on what the tiers mean for this tier list tomorrow or when I have more time.

Not sure Aron is good enough for A, considering the sheer amount of backtracking required and how painfully slow it is to level up. It's kind of fun to troll Norman with it, but it's not doing that much to him in return. (I admit, I was using Rock Smash on it along with Rock Tomb and Iron Head. PuP might let it perform better with guaranteed Attack boosts while the first Slaking is busy loafing around) Not entirely sure Electrike is S worthy...

 

[Spenstar]

One of the thing that kinda ruins Marill is that you cant just catch the first one you encounter. Yeah that applies to a lot of mons because IVs and nature and whatnot, but Marill has a 50/50 shot at getting Huge Power and is absolute shit without it

 

[Colonel M]

Catching a Huge Power Marill is really easy this time around. The opportunity cost is almost negligible (and hard to really draw).

Okay time to edit the post because there were a couple things Celever wanted to discuss and I would be more than happy to place my input.

Tentacool B --> A
Zubat B --> A
Oddish (Vileplume) C --> B
Swablu C --> B
Feebas C --> D
Electrike A --> S (THIS needs discussion right now, and I will post thoughts on it tomorrow)
Rhyhorn C --> B
Horsea (Trade) B --> C
Magikarp A --> S
Aron B --> A
Slakoth (Slaking) E --> D
Slakoth (Vigoroth) Untested --> C
Castform E --> D
Makuhita (Trade) A --> S
Mawile C --> B/A
Magnemite S --> A (IAR is using it in a run and will keep us updated as he plays through the game. I think S right now)

So I want to point out that a lot of these Pokemon appear later in the game (some exceptions of course). I'm going to break them down little-by-little and post my thoughts.

Zubat from B to A - I am currently using Zubat. It's actually very good when you use it. But I just don't see it surviving later on the game. Though STAB Acrobatics sounds really good for Zubat it isn't available until Level 35 - that's about when you face Winona. Sludge Bomb and Shadow Ball, though helpful coverage moves, kind of sucks when your Special Attack is about 70. Well I guess at least Cross Poison is available for Crobat for what it is worth which runs off of base 90 Attack. It's one of those Pokemon that would prefer to be DexNav'd too. Brave Bird is definitely icing on the cake, but Zen Headbutt bypasses its issue of having no Super Effective attacks against Poison-types, Giga Drain is at least nice to bypass Rock-types, and Nasty Plot is kind of cool since there are a lot of decent special attacks that Zubat family learns (Sludge Bomb, Shadow Ball, Air Cutter, Air Slash is kind of late). I feel it would be more sold being A Tier if it had access to Acrobatics a little earlier or something. I'll continue using it and reporting in. But honestly aside from Brawly it doesn't have huge advantages in important fights (in fact some like Wattson and Tate / Liza it flat out loses).

Swablu - I feel the only way that Swablu can even dream of becoming B Tier is if you catch Swablu while using the Eon Flute, using a Rare Candy to evolve into Altaria, obtaining Altarianite from Lilycove, and teaching it Dragon Dance through Move Relearner. Maybe Take Down too because Secret Power / Facade are your best Normal-type STABs. Now I know you're asking why under these conditions so I will gladly explain.

Swablu is an atrocious Pokemon. I'm not even trying to beat around the bush by saying this. 40 Attack / Special Attack until Level 35 is downright humiliating. Level 19 Swablu are your best bet. TM-wise you can teach it Aerial Ace and Secret Power to work with. Secret Power helps with status effects - something Swablu desperately needs just to stand out.

Allow me to state it like this - Celever wanted me to use Swablu and, to be honest, I really don't want to because looking at it on paper alone makes me cringe. Celever - I can test Swablu if you really want me to; however, I'm probably not going to say many good things about it and state that C is the best it is going for. B is only possible, IMO, through what I mentioned above. This is because at least Mega Altaria does modestly against Drake and Sydney. Before you say "lolMegaAltaria will shit on them" - most of Sydney and Drake's Pokemon will likely be faster than said Mega Altaria unless it is trained (plausible) and even then base 70 Speed is mediocre. It ties I believe with Absol and Altaria and only beats Cacturne in Speed. I feel Mega Gyarados with Crunch, Waterfall, Ice Fang, and Waterfall would do more damage to these guys anyway. Or Taunt / Earthquake I guess. You get the point.

Electrike I think the Electrike available around the Lati@s event are more favorable for the player than the ones you get right away. You can catch Electrike at Level 24 and it evolves at Level 26. Coincidentally you will also have access to Mega Manectric at this point as well. Until you have access to Discharge you can use Charge Beam. With Mega Manectric and against a Pokemon with the same defenses Charge Beam will out damage Thunder Fang. To boot you would also gain a Special Attack boost. Another thing you could do is Volt Switch around - this does have some minor hiccups but, honestly, Manectric can realistically always lead a battle and Volt Switch elsewhere. Some Pokemon like Winona's Skarmory have Sturdy anyway so you're not OHKOing it. Speaking of Winona - Manectric trashes this gym like it's nobody's business. The only "moderate" threat is Swellow's Double Team IMO. You also have Overheat to play with as Manectric too - though dangerous due to the SpA drop it allows Manectric to plow through a Grass-type once and then probably Volt Switch to something else (or just switch - either is fine).

I think currently it stands A. Sad as it sounds I would put Absol in S before this thing after some long thinking.

Vigoroth / Slaking debacle - I'm not really sold on Vigoroth over Slaking. Vigoroth has this issue of having 90 Base Attack for practically forever and so-so moves to boost its offense (Hone Claws, Bulk Up). It's quick but its durability is also so-so (80/80/55). Eviolite helps I guess but eh. I think in the end I still would rather use Slaking - though switching sucks Slaking is almost guaranteed to nuke one Pokemon whereas Vigoroth is probably going to need setup to get through and still not end as expected through its "sweep". People who actually used one or the other are free to chime in here.

That's it for now. I'll add more later.

 

[AOPSUser]

I actually nominated Aron C->B, unless it recently got changed to B and the OP hasn't updated? Regardless, I definitely would not put it in A just because leveling it is so slow and painful. The Route 117 Breeders gave it nice EXP though.

Magikarp I'm a bit hesitant about. You want the lv. 15 Magikarp which takes a few minutes to catch, and then you switch-train it. Unless you're using EXP. Share. I did an EXP. Share run once and even then I barely had Gyarados for Flannery (switch training evolves it faster but at the cost of time). You also need to go to Route 123 for Gyaradosite. After that it's really good though. IDK about S.

 

[stage7_4]

Nobody is even mentioning Whismur which is sad because I really think it deserves A-tier with STAB Boomburst with silk scarf backed by some form of Crunch, Overheat, Surf, Shadow Ball, and Focus Blast. It also makes a pretty good HM-slave, and my runs only needed Boomburst and 2 coverage moves leaving the final slot open for HM's (or more if you get Scrappy but that's DexNav). Helps that Loudred can use Overheat (unlike most others that need to fully evolve first).

Downsides: Whismur isn't that good, Loudred evolves a tad late, and Exploud is pretty slow. Uproar also got knocked up a few levels, but I found Echoed Voice to be pretty good from early to mid-game. It two-shots a trainer's first 'mon, but then one-shots all the rest. While these flaws knock it out of S, I think it really deserves A.

A note on Vigoroth/Slaking: Remember that for Vigoroth you have to either equip an everstone (meaning no boost item) or deal with the evolution screen after every level-up (which is more time-consuming then simply switching out Slaking after a K.O.). While I can see a case for putting them on the same tier, I don't think Vigoroth is better then Slaking.

 

[DHR-107]

Nobody is even mentioning Whismur which is sad because I really think it deserves A-tier with STAB Boomburst with silk scarf backed by some form of Crunch, Overheat, Surf, Shadow Ball, and Focus Blast. It also makes a pretty good HM-slave, and my runs only needed Boomburst and 2 coverage moves leaving the final slot open for HM's (or more if you get Scrappy but that's DexNav). Helps that Loudred can use Overheat (unlike most others that need to fully evolve first).

Downsides: Whismur isn't that good, Loudred evolves a tad late, and Exploud is pretty slow. Uproar also got knocked up a few levels, but I found Echoed Voice to be pretty good from early to mid-game. It two-shots a trainer's first 'mon, but then one-shots all the rest. While these flaws knock it out of S, I think it really deserves A.

I'm actually using a Whismur/Exploud in my current game... BoomBurst has saved me a few times and Exploud was critical for me during the Elite 4. It powered through things I might have had trouble with otherwise. It IS slow, but it has decent enough bulk and really good offences. Boomburst just wrecks 80% of everything it touches. It helped me out vs Winona and Flannery and against most of the Magma/Aqua Grunts.

I managed to catch one with Extrasensory, but I didn't use it at all. Stomp is great stab with Echo'd Voice to hit each way, and then you can add Surf to the lineup when you get Exploud. Mine is Surf/Rock Smash/Boomburst/Extrasensory. I'd def put it up to A. It's got so much power at its disposal.

 

[Colonel M]

So I went through Flannery. Graveler practically steamrolled her in about 4 turns (just used Rollout). The only minor issue is that you do need to have Rawst Berry because Slugma has Flame Body. Else - Graveler had no issues with the threat of "Overheat on its poor SpD" (mine was even Lax lol) and the like.

tl;dr Graveler stomped Flannery as expected. Also Azumarill will do fine here with STAB Aqua Tail and Huge Power - might just 2HKO on Torkoal at worst.

AAAAND just beat Norman. Update time!

Geico the Treecko - I won't lie that Treecko has been pulling his weight. The only thing that kind of blows is that its Defense stat and lack of OHKOing is pretty shoddy against it. I would not even try to use this thing against Wattson, Flannery, nor Norman. Treecko probably won't be nearing Sceptile by Norman so please don't try using that either.

Overall it's doing work on the fields. But it really isn't doing anything superb to where I think it screams S tier. But I will admit that Giga Drain or Swords Dance + Leaf Blade is fun to use.

Lee Sin the Zubat - Zubat has been surprising me on the field as well. It is pretty solid and I actually got a Crobat before Flannery (to be fair I think it got two massages instead of one). Crobat is actually sturdy enough to where I could see it doing okay in gym battles - hell even Norman it could probably take a hit. Probably not the best bet, though. It's strong and it does work against the Fighting- and Grass-types very well. Being in A seems unlikely because it is rather limited on its power; however, it is pretty awesome to use.

Mary the Azumarill - Mary may be slow but she's a beast. She flattened Flannery without trouble (Rawst Berry prevented Flame Body from burning Azumarill) and, as predicted, 2HKOed Torkoal even through Curse. You could stick with Rollout maybe if you needed to - not like Torkoal is threatening Azumarill with Overheat anytime soon. But the possible Attract does make it dicey (mine was Female). STAB Play Rough earlygame is pretty solid too.

Susan the Golem - Susan has proven to me that she's pretty damn strong. I tested her against Flannery as a Graveler and she flattened her in 4 turns. I decided to give the EXP to Mary and then use Susan against Norman because I lacked any Fighting-types. Susan was definitely a good Pokemon against Norman. The only thing I may double-consider is holding a Chesto Berry. Yawn can get pretty annoying with the first Slaking while charging up Rollout. I did Rock Polish + Rollout; however, you probably don't really need to Rock Polish because you probably aren't taking that much damage from the Slakings either (they only have Feint Attack lol). Looks like Stealth Rock is at Level 30 and Golem is Level 28 - perfect for Winona fight and I could see it being useful against Steven and bypassing Aggron's Sturdy ability.

My current thoughts are as follows:

- Treecko is good enough for A, but falls short a bit for S IMO. Treecko has been doing fairly well but it really doesn't stand out against important battles like Torchic / Mudkip. Treecko only stands out for one in comparison to Torchic and Mudkip's possible 3-4 at this point in the game. Treecko can participate in some of the gyms like Wattson and Brawly but it probably isn't making much progress. If anything in some cases like Brawly it could hurt the team's situation. We are approaching towards the 6th gym and hopefully we can get a Sceptile before Tate and Liza where Sceptile can gain an advantage in the gym (as well as Wallace when he arrives). Sceptile may still have the late game in his sleeves but for now he does good earlygame and then does so-so mid-game.

- Marill is debatable for S Tier. I feel that Pokemon that really lack Speed aren't the most deserving of S Tier. This is why, again, I point to the example of XY Honedge - Pokemon that can take hits (or immune to attacks) is great and definitely helps; however, being slow can also be a major detriment to a Pokemon even by time standards. For Marill it is a slow Pokemon. Azumarill is only a base Speed of 50 and I'm finding that the level gap is starting to come into play (it may die out a little bit when I hit Winona). I still expect a lot from Azumarill though so I'm holding onto it.

- Zubat in A is possible, but questionable. Zubat has proven its typing is really good in this game - a lot better than I thought. Even though it is weak to some Psychic-type Pokemon it can bypass the problem by simply being faster and hitting with Thief or STAB Poison-type moves. Or in Meditite's case - laugh at the damage and Wing Attack if it somehow survives the first move. The best part is Shroomish, Oddish, and Roselia cannot poison Zubat - a minor problem in prolonged battles. Paralysis and Sleep suck too; however, only Grass-type Pokemon can bypass that and Grass vs Grass does not usually end well - especially for the Grass-types that have the upper hand with Poison-type attacks.

I thought about dropping Lee Sin, though. Feel free to tell me to keep using him though - Crobat is pretty slick!

- Susan, at the moment, definitely deserves A (and Graveler is B at worst). This one I am pretty adamant on for many reasons, and I feel that a person that really doubts Geodude being good; especially in the portions of the game that I outlined its perks in, really should consider using Geodude. It's a little rough in Brawly and Route 109 (near Slateport). Beyond that it should hold its own and only has to really avoid Grass- and Water-types. They exist; however, they are not super common. One perk is if the Water-type is Wingull Geodude should be able to smash into Wingull with Rock Tomb and outspeed it while Water Gun should fail to OHKO (especially with Sturdy). It manhandled Wattson, it can definitely manhandle Flannery, and it can manhandle Norman. And I'm pretty damn sure it can manhandle Winona too. Golem may be so-so later in the game; however, I have theorymon more with Golem and think it can survive past Winona. It still does decently in outside battles (barring Water-type battles but Golem could also just hog some levels on land when it gets a chance) and can do decent in some important battles (Magma / Aqua pubstomp, Stealth Rock on Glacia helps close OHKOes against stupid Pokemon like Walrein, Stealth Rock helps bypass Aggron's Sturdy as well as denting Armaldo).

 

[Its_A_Random]

Magnemite eh? Okay caught a level 6 one with Sassy and seemingly flawless special defence whee. Spent half an hour leveling it up to catch the rest of the party meaning there is an opportunity cost associated with it. From there it pretty much beat the rival and it won the Wattson match-up by resisting everything he has and simply spamming Sonic Boom. 10 turn fight though and a triple Supersonic miss worked in my favour and ten rounds to solo is not really efficient relative to other mons like Marshtomp. It is also understandably slow and its really low HP works for it in terms of recovery items. Fairly reliable as well. Up to Fallarbor atm. Also playing Omega Ruby so I am not expecting it to do well in the next few major battles.

Also to put the Zubat vs. Brawly match-up to bed, my level 15 relaxed Zubat with an average Attack IV and no investment in Attack (apart from beating a couple of Makuhita in Granite Cave) cleanly 2HKOed both his Pokémon through one Bulk Up.

 

[Colonel M]

Magnemite eh? Okay caught a level 6 one with Sassy and seemingly flawless special defence whee. Spent half an hour leveling it up to catch the rest of the party meaning there is an opportunity cost associated with it. From there it pretty much beat the rival and it won the Wattson match-up by resisting everything he has and simply spamming Sonic Boom. 10 turn fight though and a triple Supersonic miss worked in my favour and ten rounds to solo is not really efficient relative to other mons like Marshtomp. It is also understandably slow and its really low HP works for it in terms of recovery items. Fairly reliable as well. Up to Fallarbor atm. Also playing Omega Ruby so I am not expecting it to do well in the next few major battles.

Also to put the Zubat vs. Brawly match-up to bed, my level 15 relaxed Zubat with an average Attack IV and no investment in Attack (apart from beating a couple of Makuhita in Granite Cave) cleanly 2HKOed both his Pokémon through one Bulk Up.

You got a Relaxed Zubat too? Nice.

Yeah Zubat just smashes Brawly in. I dont even think Tailow really compares.

 

[Spenstar]

Magnemite eh? Okay caught a level 6 one with Sassy and seemingly flawless special defence whee. Spent half an hour leveling it up to catch the rest of the party meaning there is an opportunity cost associated with it. From there it pretty much beat the rival and it won the Wattson match-up by resisting everything he has and simply spamming Sonic Boom. 10 turn fight though and a triple Supersonic miss worked in my favour and ten rounds to solo is not really efficient relative to other mons like Marshtomp. It is also understandably slow and its really low HP works for it in terms of recovery items. Fairly reliable as well. Up to Fallarbor atm. Also playing Omega Ruby so I am not expecting it to do well in the next few major battles.

Also to put the Zubat vs. Brawly match-up to bed, my level 15 relaxed Zubat with an average Attack IV and no investment in Attack (apart from beating a couple of Makuhita in Granite Cave) cleanly 2HKOed both his Pokémon through one Bulk Up.

That sounds like Low A matierial, certainly not S if only for the combination of speed and needing to catch up

 

[Jibaku]

Lee Sin the Zubat -_-

Treecko (Grovyle) does fine vs Wattson due to Electric resistance. It does take a while to take the magnets down but they won't be doing much back to you anyways. A few Giga Drains and everything's all right.

In my ingame run Grovyle proved to be an excellent tank overall simply due to the fact that things don't really hurt ingame and Giga Drain often erases them anyways. It does sometimes take a while to kill things though (particularly vs enemy grass types, mostly because they're often part poison), but it was quite nice for saving potions.

As far as Magikarp goes it shouldnt be hard to level it up post wattson. It's just 5 levels away from evolving and the trainers there often have Pokemon at a higher level so racking up exp should not be difficult, and is overall very well worth it because Gyarados' payoff is -huge-

Also Gyaradosite isn't mandatory if you don't want to go through route123 to pick it up. Just give it a Wave Incense or mystic water or smth and it'll still hurt. It does mean that Phoebe will no longer be a piece of cake, though, but DD/Waterfall/Ice Fang/EQ is still powerful enough to carry you through major fights later on.

Lastly I'm unsure about Lati@s' placement in S considering that my EV trained 31/x/30/31/21/31 timid Latios was less useful than my nontrained Gyarados, but I'm too sleepy atm to come up with a coherent thought

 

[Arcanite]

Having now reached Rayquaza i will give my thoughts on everything:
Mudkip (Swampert): Honestly, I found it slightly underwhelming. Mine didn't learn Water Pledge, and I never backtracked to check if it would. This meant marshtomp was a little meh for me, although mud bomb is good. Having a decent Water HM slave that actually has bulk and power was useful though. I could see it dropping to A.
Ralts (Gardevoir): As I think it has largely been discussed, Gardevoir is a god, the other two are a bit weak, although not terrible. Agree with A.
Shroomish (Breloom): I was really underwhelmed, as I let it evolve at lv23, and therefore missed out on giga drain. At that point in the game it wasn't a liability, so I don't think waiting 3 levels would be too much of an issue. Otherwise I was underwhelmed with it as essentially a mono fighting. (Mega Drain doesn't cut it). I felt B, but Giga Drain might make it A.
Trapinch (Flygon): Flygon's great, but I got mine in sootopolis gym. Vibrava and Trapinch are just borderline fine, although leading with trapinch to boost its levels means you really need the smoke ball. Agree with B.
Electrike (Mega Manectric): Really consistent, charge beam does fine until you get discharge, and then it's great. Early Mega Stone means you have access immediately after southern island. Easy A.
Zubat (Crobat): I was extremely impressed. I was expecting it to get weak eventually, but it just didn't. Acrobatics is really strong, and has great neutral coverage. Cross Poison is a useful poison STAB, but Acrobatics is its power really. It can be used for fly until you get the Eon flute too, which is useful for backtracking/sidequesting. I got Crobat 1 level after golbat with no massages. I think this is definitely good enough for A, as there are so many Fighting types around, and plenty of grass. It's also not terrible against random water trainers.

 

[Colonel M]

Lee Sin the Zubat -_-

Quiet.

And Lee Sin to your heart.

Treecko (Grovyle) does fine vs Wattson due to Electric resistance. It does take a while to take the magnets down but they won't be doing much back to you anyways. A few Giga Drains and everything's all right.

Honestly the only problem child for Grovyle is really Magneton. The other is suffering paralysis from Magnemite; however, a Cheri Berry does help loosen that situation for Grovyle so it can get through the gym easier. I guess I should rephrase in that Grovyle is not a bad Pokemon vs Wattson, but it's about average at best. Resisting Volt Switch helps, but it takes a little while to whittle down the opponent.

In my ingame run Grovyle proved to be an excellent tank overall simply due to the fact that things don't really hurt ingame and Giga Drain often erases them anyways. It does sometimes take a while to kill things though (particularly vs enemy grass types, mostly because they're often part poison), but it was quite nice for saving potions.

I think the only thing that kind of hurts Grovyle and Giga Drain is, ironically, its Speed. It's almost always going first so you have to hit with something weaker or attempt to Giga Drain the next Pokemon to really make full use of it (unless you're injured from previous fights).

One thing I'm really liking though is that somewhat early Swords Dance with Grovyle will prove useful later on. Swords Dance / Dual Chop / Leaf Blade / fillers will prove undoubtedly useful. Yeah setup sucks but Megatile should be able to pubstomp any trainer (and I'm sure Sceptile can pubstomp normal trainers - especially if I went and taught it Leaf Storm instead).

As far as Magikarp goes it shouldnt be hard to level it up post wattson. It's just 5 levels away from evolving and the trainers there often have Pokemon at a higher level so racking up exp should not be difficult, and is overall very well worth it because Gyarados' payoff is -huge-

I want to echo off this statement because the power spike of Gyarados is so much larger than most Pokemon when they evolve. Granted we're comparing it from Magikarp, a useless Pokemon, to a Gyarados; however, Thrash was literally shitting on Pokemon that didn't resist it (OHKOing almost all the time) and Intimidate / high SpD really helps with its bulk. I mean yeah Grovyle can OHKO some Pokemon with Giga Drain; however, I found a lot of targets it 2HKOed (Sturdy is a goddamn troll lol).

Also Gyaradosite isn't mandatory if you don't want to go through route123 to pick it up. Just give it a Wave Incense or mystic water or smth and it'll still hurt. It does mean that Phoebe will no longer be a piece of cake, though, but DD/Waterfall/Ice Fang/EQ is still powerful enough to carry you through major fights later on.

I feel in most cases the opportunity cost is outweighed by the benefit - this might also be because that I was facing a severe level gap and Mega Evolution helps patch the level gap issue (mainly the stat disparity).

Lastly I'm unsure about Lati@s' placement in S considering that my EV trained 31/x/30/31/21/31 timid Latios was less useful than my nontrained Gyarados, but I'm too sleepy atm to come up with a coherent thought

I'm still really unsure with Lati@s atm. This might be something I have to sit down and discuss with Celever on because I felt it was pretty A-ish just considering it was a limited nuke but it actually does mediocre throughout the game.

=====

Finally for a closing thought - I think I have decided that Mawile should probably be B. One thing that really hurts Mawile's performance in comparison to Pokemon like Magikarp is the annoying backtracking for it. You need the Mach Bike and the process to go back to Dewford and Mach Bike down to the basement floor is kind of a pain in the ass. Maybe with enough evidence that it shitstomps ingame I could see A, but I think if we want to be serious B is pretty close for a Pokemon that has a rather steepish cost of time for it. This is also why I would not raise Aron to A.

 

[Jibaku]

ALRIGHT now that I have time, I'm going to explain why I think Lati@s should be in A and not in S. I'll be somewhat basing this off Latios' perspective since that's what I used (and Latios is a tad better ingame due to its superior offenses), but they should be about similar in power regardless.

Pros:
- High stats. Combined with its Megastone, Lati@s' stats outclass everything else in the game up to Kyogre / Groudon. You shouldn't lose w/ Lati@s on your team.
- Comes at a reasonable level and does not require special training in the same way that Magikarp/Ralts/Abra do.
- Resists a lot of stuff.
- Fast, so you can expect to outrun everything in the game short of Maxie's/Archie's Crobat which is weak to its Psychic STAB anyways
- Can be used as an HM Slave - learns Surf, Fly, Dive, Waterfall, and Cut (although Cut is useless at this point of the game).
- Relatively wide movepool
- Comes with 3 perfect IVs minimum.
- Immediately comes with its megastone
- Beats Groudon / Kyogre 1v1 and can tank them if needed if you wish to capture them.
- Mandatory capture for storyline so you don't have to look for it (big con for anyone wishing to sr for them however!).

Cons:
- Dragon / Psychic aren't exactly strong STABs - they don't hit a lot of things SE.
- Lati@s' natural STAB moves are weak until very late. Dragonbreath sits at a poor 60 BP and Luster Purge / Mist Ball have a mediocre 70 BP and a poor 5 PP. It gets Dragon Pulse at level 56 and Psychic at Level 51 or via TM29 at Victory Road, but that's pretty late. Alternatively, it can pick up Draco Meteor at Sootopolis, but it's a limited nuke at best.
- Because of those, Lati@s will often find itself having issues OHKOing things.
- Struggles against most of the Elite 4. It can beat Glacia and Drake with the help of a Calm Mind, however.
- Post 5th gym isn't exactly early and by then you already have access to several other strong Pokemon choices such as Blaziken (if chosen), Magneton, Alakazam (w/ trade) and Gyarados.

Notable moves:
- Dragonbreath
- Luster Purge (Latios) / Mist Ball (Latias)
- Grass Knot
- Surf
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Zen Headbutt (Mega Latios mostly)
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt (requires new mauville backtracking. Also late)
- Ice Beam (Sea mauville sidequest - takes too long to complete IMO).
- Earthquake (Mega Latios mostly)
- Dragon Dance (Latios)
- Dragon Pulse (late)
- Psychic (late)

Matchups:
- Doesn't particularly lose any, but struggles to clean sweep most things. This includes Mightyenas. When i say lose in the next few points, I mean that it really does not perform well in those matchups and can often faint.
- Wins vs Winona (but can't really OHKO them).
- Strongly wins vs Tate&Liza (just Grass Knot them - Lunatone and Solrock are kinda fat).
- Wins vs Maxie/Archie
- Wins vs Wallace (CM/Grass Knot = everyone dies)
- Does okay vs Wally
- Loses vs Sidney
- Loses vs Phoebe
- Should be fine vs Glacia
- Wins vs Drake
- Loses vs Steven

Pokemon who are available before Lati@s and can have greater impact overall:
- Alakazam - similar movepool to Lati@s but with an actual Psychic STAB (Psychic at Lv.38) and more power at the cost of some bulk. Also obtainable as early as Granite Cave so it can help out vs the likes of Brawly and Flannery. Requires a little bit of special training early on though
- Gyarados - requires some time early on but after it gets past those 5 (or 10) levels as magikarp its game impact is almost unmatched
- Blaziken - I don't think this needs much of an explanation
- Magneton - OP typing, wins a lot of matchups and contributes against Norman and Wattson
- Azumarill - Arguable, but early Aqua Tail / Play Rough kinda dunks things. Helps vs Flannery greatly. Give it a Mystic Water to destroy things further. Matchup-wise should be about the same as Lati@s after Norman, except it doesn't lose to Sidney and Phoebe. Speed kinda sucks though.

TL; DR: While Lati@s' stats are incredibly high and they don't require special training, their lack of strong moves and super effective hits from STABs make it difficult for them to OHKO quite a handful of targets (this is especially the case with Latias, as she has lower offenses and her ZHB is significantly weaker than Mega Latios's). They're also not available for about half of the game and by the time you get it there are stronger options available. Furthermore, these mons have made their impact before that point, and will continue to make an impact after.

 

[Thund91]

Just want to say you get Low Sweep in Mauville and Grovyle learns it. Makes Wattson a breeze. My Treecko has been beasting it the entire game. If you hold off evolving Treecko for 3 levels you get Giga Drain at 19 which is absolutely awesome.

 

[Colonel M]

Just want to say you get Low Sweep in Mauville and Grovyle learns it. Makes Wattson a breeze. My Treecko has been beasting it the entire game. If you hold off evolving Treecko for 3 levels you get Giga Drain at 19 which is absolutely awesome.

21.

That's 5 levels.

 

[Thund91]

21.

That's 5 levels.

I could have swore it was 19.

Either way it's a great STAB move to have early on, but imo Leaf Blade is probably still better overall.

I just made this quick post because we were talking Grovyle vs Wattson and no one mentioned yet that he has access to Low Sweep.

I've only just beat Winona so can't make too many recommendations just yet.

 

[Oglemi]

I think Lati@s's potential as an HM slave should keep it in S despite the low power of its STABs (which aren't TOO low and you get a PP Max right around the same time to beef up Luster Purge/Mist Ball a bit). Throwing Dive/Waterfall/Surf on Lati@s isn't out of the question tbh, and while a dedicated Water-type is probably better for the role, not all the Water-types get all three.

 

[Spenstar]

I think Lati@s's potential as an HM slave should keep it in S despite the low power of its STABs (which aren't TOO low and you get a PP Max right around the same time to beef up Luster Purge/Mist Ball a bit). Throwing Dive/Waterfall/Surf on Lati@s isn't out of the question tbh, and while a dedicated Water-type is probably better for the role, not all the Water-types get all three.

Lati@s also gets Fly which is great pre-eon flute for changing bikes in Mauville and such. They also get Cut, Secret Power, and Flash. Plus if you're playing OR, Latios gets Dragon Dance from Fallarbor, Zen Headbutt at level 40 plus coverage, and 130 attack while mega.

 

[Red G]

I just finished the Delta Episode with this team:
Sceptile
Metagross (event)
Mightyena (elemental fang)
Swellow
Glalie
Whiscash

While I agree with he rankings for the rest of my team, I disagree with a B ranking for Barboach. As a Whiscash, it's outsped by everything and isn't particularly powerful. If you aren't attacking with a super effective Surf or Earthquake, you probably aren't OHKOing a fully-evolved pokemon. Whiscash has decent bulk, but nothing extraordinary. And that bulk decreases quickly since Whiscash gets attacked before every attack.

I caught Barboach at level 30 (rapidly training & evolving him) right before the Tate&Liza fight, so I really only saw Whiscash in action (this is because Barboach are very rare when not using the Super Rod). But what I saw of Whiscash did not deserve a B; it's definitely a C ranked pokemon. If Barboach is better early game, then perhaps it lives up to its current ranking.

 

[Spenstar]

Reserved

(This post will be a list of positive changes in the tier list should you happen to find a certain egg move. This list is separate from the actual tier list due to the randomness of these encounters.)

when are we going to actually work with this? And are we also going to take HAs into account?

edit: examples: getting a Dexnav'd numel with Mud Bomb removes its late earth power problem, or you could get one with Heat Wave, which outclasses Lava Plume and works for hoardes and doubles battles.

Getting dexnav'd Makuhita in Granite Cave could work out amazingly. You could get better STABs than Force Palm like cross chop, focus punch, or revenge, or priority in the form of Bullet Punch. Or you could get Sheer Force, which makes Force Palm and Low Sweep stronger. In both cases, the replaced moves arent remotely good enough to miss, with the possible exception of Makuhita's tackle

 

[Celever]

when are we going to actually work with this? And are we also going to take HAs into account?

edit: example: getting a Dexnav'd numel with Mud Bomb removes its late earth power problem, or you could get one with Heat Wave, which outclasses Lava Plume and works for hoardes and doubles battles

Over Christmas I will create the list. In the last few weeks of each term my school floods us with coursework and exams, which is why I haven't been able to give this my full focus. I'll have much more time starting tomorrow.

 

[Spenstar]

Over Christmas I will create the list. In the last few weeks of each term my school floods us with coursework and exams, which is why I haven't been able to give this my full focus. I'll have much more time starting tomorrow.

should we discuss them in the meantime to help you get on the ground running?