Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[ANGUSxMACK]

Umbreon has been brought up before fairly recently, but was decided against putting a rank because there isn't any niche for Umbreon that's valuable in OU that other Pokemon such as Sylveon can perform better.

Also, 3v3's and 6v6 are completely different, due to the fact that you can't pack nearly as much on a team with the former as you can with the latter.

He does just as well for me in the 6 v. 6. He takes hits from Megagross and other major threats easily and I've even used him to stall out ubers regularly. Maybe he just works well for me and the way I use him and with the synergy of my team, but he's been so ridiculously viable for me.

The set I'm running on him is Max HP/Special Defense/4 Defense

@ Leftovers
Toxic
Moonlight
Foul Play
Protect

The other Pokemon on my team are regular OU pokes Greninja, Mega-Venusaur, Conkeldurr, Heatran, and Skarmory.

I don't know man, maybe he just works well with my team and I was just thinking he deserved some recognition based on my own experience.

Thank you for the reply

EDIT: I suppose if Sylveon does it better than I guess that's why Umbreon would have no niche. I haven't really dabbled around too much with Sylveon.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

He does just as well for me in the 6 v. 6. He takes hits from Megagross and other major threats easily and I've even used him to stall out ubers regularly. Maybe he just works well for me and the way I use him and with the synergy of my team, but he's been so ridiculously viable for me.

The set I'm running on him is Max HP/Special Defense/4 Defense

@ Leftovers
Toxic
Moonlight
Foul Play
Protect

The other Pokemon on my team are regular OU pokes Greninja, Mega-Venusaur, Conkeldurr, Heatran, and Skarmory.

I don't know man, maybe he just works well with my team and I was just thinking he deserved some recognition based on my own experience.

Thank you for the reply

EDIT: I suppose if Sylveon does it better than I guess that's why Umbreon would have no niche. I haven't really dabbled around too much with Sylveon.

As much as I love Umbreon, it's my favorite Pokemon, this thing has no reason to be in OU. It's outclassed in every way, bar a curseback poke, which is not good at all anyway.

 

[pika pal]

Here's one thing I think is being ignored for Mega Swampert: He's not just a Thunder Wave immunity, he's a full out Electric Immunity, which makes him easier to swap in than Manectric against the Pokemon he can check. The most relevant Electric types are Thundurus-I and Manectric. For the former, assume the Prankster set because TW was important, and rain because of the playstyle.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 112-133 (39.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 199-235 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 162-192 (54.1 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 183-216 (61.2 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 91-108 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- 97.6% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 81-96 (28.8 - 34.1%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO

Manectric isn't exactly bulky, on top of being vulnerable to every move that could be thrown at him. He's already very prone to being worn down considering his role as a VS attacker, and it only takes a tiny bit over 1 SR round for Thundurus to KO w/ Focus Blast. Swampert is not only naturally more bulky, but his typing makes it significantly easier to switch into their STABs and attacks in general (Using a 104 HP/252+ Att/ 152 Spe spread)

252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Mega Swampert: 62-74 (16.8 - 20.1%) -- possible 5HKO
-1 252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 320-378 (113.8 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 153-181 (41.6 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus in Rain: 321-378 (107.3 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I'd say closer competition for Mega Swampert as a TW immune Rain mega would be Mega Sceptile, who's naturally fast enough to be a SS, has a similar offensive stat on his used spectrum, and shares the immunity because of his ability, while also functioning decently without rain. Both lack the power needed to break Stall, but under their optimal conditions are murder for offense. Where they differ is Sceptile's greater fraility and weaker defensive typing, and lack of weather boost on his moves.

And to make a slightly more "stretch" argument on viability, look at Magnezone, who's sitting in A- for removing a few key Steel types. He as a standalone Pokemon wouldn't be all that viable, but the type of holes he opens or threats he can wear down push him up for what he works with. Obviously Swampert isn't quite as integral to a playstyle, he almost gives Rain a second Kabutops, forming something akin to old Double Dragon cores by wearing down Kabutop's checks and counters so it can sweep or clean, while still being entirely functional as a Swift Swimmer on his own merits. If we're going to talk Mega Opportunity Cost, Mega Latios contributes little significant advantage over Base Latios and gets ranked B simply for being as powerful if not as optimal. Swampert has a combination of traits that are very difficult to pull together for a Swift Swimmer. I'd still say he should Stay in B+. Needing a turn to Mega Evolve for boosted speed isn't a problem exclusive to him (Gallade, Metagross, Lopunny, Diancie, Pinsir), and they're all ranked significantly higher, while only Metagross and to an extent Gallade have the bulk to risk a hit vs Offense for that turn. I'd say that's a negative that can be outweighed for having a second Kabutops that trades priority and a bit of STAB coverage for raw bulk rivaling Altaria or bulky slows like Azumarill, and typing and arguably better defensive typing (Rocks Resistance and Electric immunity are a boon to Rain already).

 

[Alfalfa]

252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Skarmory in Rain: 150-177 (45 - 53.1%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Skarmory can't switch in at all if SR are up, but yeah, I agree with the rest of your post.

EDIT: Why did the calculator put Careful nature in there hello
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 136-162 (40.8 - 48.6%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Better
And you still have to worry about the flinch from Waterfall but w /e

Leftovers is a subpar option on Skarmory because it will leave it helplessly trapped by Magnezone, whereas Shed Shell allows it to avoid such form of trapping.

252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I personally think Mega Swampert belongs in B Rank for some of the anti-Swampert reasons stated, but over half the time, Skarmory is 2HKOd by Mega Pert after Stealth Rock.

 

[MANNAT]

Here's one thing I think is being ignored for Mega Swampert: He's not just a Thunder Wave immunity, he's a full out Electric Immunity, which makes him easier to swap in than Manectric against the Pokemon he can check. The most relevant Electric types are Thundurus-I and Manectric. For the former, assume the Prankster set because TW was important, and rain because of the playstyle.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 112-133 (39.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 199-235 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 162-192 (54.1 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 183-216 (61.2 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 91-108 (32.3 - 38.4%) -- 97.6% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 81-96 (28.8 - 34.1%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO

Manectric isn't exactly bulky, on top of being vulnerable to every move that could be thrown at him. He's already very prone to being worn down considering his role as a VS attacker, and it only takes a tiny bit over 1 SR round for Thundurus to KO w/ Focus Blast. Swampert is not only naturally more bulky, but his typing makes it significantly easier to switch into their STABs and attacks in general (Using a 104 HP/252+ Att/ 152 Spe spread)

252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Mega Swampert: 62-74 (16.8 - 20.1%) -- possible 5HKO
-1 252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 320-378 (113.8 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 153-181 (41.6 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus in Rain: 321-378 (107.3 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I'd say closer competition for Mega Swampert as a TW immune Rain mega would be Mega Sceptile, who's naturally fast enough to be a SS, has a similar offensive stat on his used spectrum, and shares the immunity because of his ability, while also functioning decently without rain. Both lack the power needed to break Stall, but under their optimal conditions are murder for offense. Where they differ is Sceptile's greater fraility and weaker defensive typing, and lack of weather boost on his moves.

And to make a slightly more "stretch" argument on viability, look at Magnezone, who's sitting in A- for removing a few key Steel types. He as a standalone Pokemon wouldn't be all that viable, but the type of holes he opens or threats he can wear down push him up for what he works with. Obviously Swampert isn't quite as integral to a playstyle, he almost gives Rain a second Kabutops, forming something akin to old Double Dragon cores by wearing down Kabutop's checks and counters so it can sweep or clean, while still being entirely functional as a Swift Swimmer on his own merits. If we're going to talk Mega Opportunity Cost, Mega Latios contributes little significant advantage over Base Latios and gets ranked B simply for being as powerful if not as optimal. Swampert has a combination of traits that are very difficult to pull together for a Swift Swimmer. I'd still say he should Stay in B+. Needing a turn to Mega Evolve for boosted speed isn't a problem exclusive to him (Gallade, Metagross, Lopunny, Diancie, Pinsir), and they're all ranked significantly higher, while only Metagross and to an extent Gallade have the bulk to risk a hit vs Offense for that turn. I'd say that's a negative that can be outweighed for having a second Kabutops that trades priority and a bit of STAB coverage for raw bulk rivaling Altaria or bulky slows like Azumarill, and typing and arguably better defensive typing (Rocks Resistance and Electric immunity are a boon to Rain already).

You forgot about rotom-w...................

 

[bb skarm]

sylveon is better because it actually has some remote offensive presence + it has one great defensive typing

Anyways I think we could bump quagsire up to B+. It's really underrated as a check to two top setup sweepers right now - Mega Altaria and Mega Metagross. It is one of the best status setters given its access to Scald and how it makes reliable use of Toxic. Furthermore, its reliable recovery means it beats special attackers such as mega manectric and thundurus because they rely on HP Ice for damage. With totally invested bulk physically, it basically beats a good amount of neutral physical attacker that isnt banded because of recover. There isn't really much to say about this mon, bump to b+

 

[Excalibuwrath]

Diancie can lose to +2 Talonflame if it misses one diamond storm and has some chip damage.

Proof: +2 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 132-156 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So, Talonflame has a 5% chance of winning, assuming it already has a SD boost when Diancie switches in. That's really low, and the only way Talonflame can improve that is if it has a SD boost and hits it on the switch. And that's assuming Diancie has no defense investment, which isn't that hard to make room for.

 

[MANNAT]

So, Talonflame has a 5% chance of winning, assuming it already has a SD boost when Diancie switches in. That's really low, and the only way Talonflame can improve that is if it has a SD boost and hits it on the switch. And that's assuming Diancie has no defense investment, which isn't that hard to make room for.

It was just a note to those that say diancie COUNTERS birdspam.

 

[theV8man]

sylveon is better because it actually has some remote offensive presence + it has one great defensive typing

Anyways I think we could bump quagsire up to B+. It's really underrated as a check to two top setup sweepers right now - Mega Altaria and Mega Metagross. It is one of the best status setters given its access to Scald and how it makes reliable use of Toxic. Furthermore, its reliable recovery means it beats special attackers such as mega manectric and thundurus because they rely on HP Ice for damage. With totally invested bulk physically, it basically beats a good amount of neutral physical attacker that isnt banded because of recover. There isn't really much to say about this mon, bump to b+

The main problem with Quagsire is that a lot of the new megas can break it. Metagross is known to run hp grass, Quagsire can only take Altaria's return if its completely healthy (and even then it COULD be a 2HKO - and let's not forget about special sets), and the other physical megas like Lopunny and Gallade can also 2HKO. It's harder for Quagsire to do its job now because if you just switch it in, you might lose it and have a set-up Pokemon on your hands. It can only really function as a check. And even as a check, certain Pokemon can risk going for the 2HKO because all you can do in return is hope for a 30% chance burn. This, combined with competition from Unaware Clefable, makes me think it hasn't gotten that much better this gen, and it should stay in the same rank.

 

[Taliheim]

It was just a note to those that say diancie COUNTERS birdspam.

"Counter - Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."
I'm pretty sure a 5% chance to miss counts as hax, saying it has a lower chance of happening than a critical hit.

 

[pika pal]

You forgot about rotom-w...................

Indeed I did. Will post calcs to amend that.

0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manectric in Rain: 280-330 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Swampert in Rain: 171-202 (46.5 - 55%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W in Rain: 68-81 (22.3 - 26.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Swampert cannot handle Rotom-W, risking a potential burn. That said, Manectric, the competition for Electric solution I was analyzing doesn't fare much better, requiring essentially no prior damage to be OHKO'd while managing only a 3HKO of his own, so he can't even check a healthy one. That said, of the 3 I checked, Swampert wins against 2 (Thundurus and opposing Mega Manectric) by a wide margin, and the last one, though Manectric works better, neither really is going to win against the Washing Machine. That said, I would personally penalize Swampert less for that than I do Manectric for the following reason: Swift Swimmers are supposed to generally be a Rain Team's sweepers, and like any win condition, some checks or counters typically need to be removed first, and I find it hard to believe a Rain Team has no way to deal with what is simultaneously the most used Water (Greninja discounted for Protean) and Electric Type in the tier, when those are arguably two of the most crucial types to prepare for already. Manectric (in the scenario described) IS supposed to be that solution to opposing Electrics, and he fails against Rotom-W while being lackluster for the others.

In the scenario I've been working under, the argument is that Swampert is a redundant Swift Swimmer because the Mega Slot could better go to something else to handle problems to rain teams like Electrics. However, Swampert is ultimately having little trouble with 2 out of the 3 most prevalent, while Manectric is outperformed against those 2 and underwhelming against the 3rd anyway. I go back to the Sceptile comparison because, while Sceptile has poorer match-ups against those 2 due to HP Ice, he clearly hard counters Rotom-W, and thus might be worth the team slot if your team really struggles with it and can already answer the other 2.

Swampert interests me because he naturally overcomes some of the typical problems of a SS, those being fraility, weakness to priority, and problems with Thunder Wave/(Some) Electrics. He does have the Mega Slot as part of the opportunity cost, but he also requires a bit less support/fewer threats worn out to compensate. Same as Kabutops, he has Low Kick for Ferrothorn, which is also a common headache for Rain teams. Even if Swamp only gets the one kick, Ferro's lack of reliable recovery means it's easy for another member to finish the job.
252+ Atk Swampert Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 180-212 (51.1 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Now, I'm not arguing Swampert as more viable, hence staying in B+. However, as Rain's check to Electric Type threats, Swampert outperforms Manectric in every relevant case, and Sceptile deals with a different one, if more common one. I won't pretend he brings the same raw power as Heracross, but Swampert offers a Swift Swimmer that deals decently enough with other threats, so the things Hera would deal with can reasonably be handled by something else easily enough.

 

[MANNAT]

Indeed I did. Will post calcs to amend that.

0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manectric in Rain: 280-330 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Swampert in Rain: 171-202 (46.5 - 55%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W in Rain: 68-81 (22.3 - 26.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Swampert cannot handle Rotom-W, risking a potential burn. That said, Manectric, the competition for Electric solution I was analyzing doesn't fare much better, requiring essentially no prior damage to be OHKO'd while managing only a 3HKO of his own, so he can't even check a healthy one. That said, of the 3 I checked, Swampert wins against 2 (Thundurus and opposing Mega Manectric) by a wide margin, and the last one, though Manectric works better, neither really is going to win against the Washing Machine. That said, I would personally penalize Swampert less for that than I do Manectric for the following reason: Swift Swimmers are supposed to generally be a Rain Team's sweepers, and like any win condition, some checks or counters typically need to be removed first, and I find it hard to believe a Rain Team has no way to deal with what is simultaneously the most used Water (Greninja discounted for Protean) and Electric Type in the tier, when those are arguably two of the most crucial types to prepare for already. Manectric (in the scenario described) IS supposed to be that solution to opposing Electrics, and he fails against Rotom-W while being lackluster for the others.

In the scenario I've been working under, the argument is that Swampert is a redundant Swift Swimmer because the Mega Slot could better go to something else to handle problems to rain teams like Electrics. However, Swampert is ultimately having little trouble with 2 out of the 3 most prevalent, while Manectric is outperformed against those 2 and underwhelming against the 3rd anyway. I go back to the Sceptile comparison because, while Sceptile has poorer match-ups against those 2 due to HP Ice, he clearly hard counters Rotom-W, and thus might be worth the team slot if your team really struggles with it and can already answer the other 2.

Swampert interests me because he naturally overcomes some of the typical problems of a SS, those being fraility, weakness to priority, and problems with Thunder Wave/(Some) Electrics. He does have the Mega Slot as part of the opportunity cost, but he also requires a bit less support/fewer threats worn out to compensate. Same as Kabutops, he has Low Kick for Ferrothorn, which is also a common headache for Rain teams. Even if Swamp only gets the one kick, Ferro's lack of reliable recovery means it's easy for another member to finish the job.
252+ Atk Swampert Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 180-212 (51.1 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Now, I'm not arguing Swampert as more viable, hence staying in B+. However, as Rain's check to Electric Type threats, Swampert outperforms Manectric in every relevant case, and Sceptile deals with a different one, if more common one. I won't pretend he brings the same raw power as Heracross, but Swampert offers a Swift Swimmer that deals decently enough with other threats, so the things Hera would deal with can reasonably be handled by something else easily enough.

If you want to use another mega, then you should run seismitoad over swampert as it hits harder and is faster. However, it only has 105/75/75 defenses which aren't that great.

"Counter - Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."
I'm pretty sure a 5% chance to miss counts as hax, saying it has a lower chance of happening than a critical hit.

Natural Gift talonflame can OHKO i'm pretty sure, and that's actually a usable set.

 

[Kurona]

If you want to use another mega, then you should run seismitoad over swampert as it hits harder and is faster. However, it only has 105/75/75 defenses which aren't that great.

What relevant things does Seismitoad outspeed that Swampert doesn't? Swampert actually runs less than max speed because hey, it outspeeds everything it needs to with 212.

 

[Halcyon.]

Why would you ever run Seismitoad over Swampert, they don't do the same thing at all...Swampert is a physical wall breaker/cleaner for rain teams, crushes Ferrothorn, and acts as a Thundurus check. The only thing Seismitoad does is check Thundy and miss all of its moves. It can't break for Kabutops, it can't beat Ferrothorn, it has shit bulk, like why are we even comparing the two? It's like saying Landorus-I is outclassed by Gliscor. The only comparison is their typing...

 

[MANNAT]

What relevant things does Seismitoad outspeed that Swampert doesn't? Swampert actually runs less than max speed because hey, it outspeeds everything it needs to with 212.

Exactly, it doesn't have to invest fully in speed, so it can invest in bulk and HP with the remaining HP EVs

Why would you ever run Seismitoad over Swampert, they don't do the same thing at all...Swampert is a physical wall breaker/cleaner for rain teams, crushes Ferrothorn, and acts as a Thundurus check. The only thing Seismitoad does is check Thundy and miss all of its moves. It can't break for Kabutops, it can't beat Ferrothorn, it has shit bulk, like why are we even comparing the two? It's like saying Landorus-I is outclassed by Gliscor. The only comparison is their typing...

1) 105/75/75 isn't even shit bulk, it is OK as sweeper standards go.
2) Hydro pump and Focus Blast have 80% and 70% accuracy respectively not 50% , hax may screw you over a few times but everything can't have aura sphere and/or steam eruption.
3) Both mons are late game cleaners on swift swim teams.
4) Focus Blast can crush ferrothorn 7/10 times.
5) It takes out the physical walls that kabutops cannot.
6) Seismitoad doesn't take up a mega slot.

 

[pika pal]

If you want to use another mega, then you should run seismitoad over swampert as it hits harder and is faster. However, it only has 105/75/75 defenses which aren't that great.

The thing is, Seismitoad is a specially oriented threat, which leaves him immediately outclassed by Kingdra, who's the fastest Swift Swimmer naturally (more bulk investment!), has better natural bulk, and (arguably) an equally effective defensive typing. Swampert at best competes with Kabutops, who we've noted does not completely outclass it anyway. In fact, I'd say that Swampert's presence puts Seismitoad even worse off: if your team was already weak enough to use Seismitoad as your Thundurus check, I think it reasonable to use the Mega slot for Swampert, who has the same typing, better bulk, synergizes better with the other premier SS user, and even checks another important Electric type.

 

[MANNAT]

The thing is, Seismitoad is a specially oriented threat, which leaves him immediately outclassed by Kingdra, who's the fastest Swift Swimmer naturally (more bulk investment!), has better natural bulk, and (arguably) an equally effective defensive typing. Swampert at best competes with Kabutops, who we've noted does not completely outclass it anyway. In fact, I'd say that Swampert's presence puts Seismitoad even worse off: if your team was already weak enough to use Seismitoad as your Thundurus check, I think it reasonable to use the Mega slot for Swampert, who has the same typing, better bulk, synergizes better with the other premier SS user, and even checks another important Electric type.

I was just mentioning that you could use seismitoad if you wanted to use a mega besides mega-swampert on your team. Mega-Swampert is overrated IMO, and his role can be filled by Pokemon that don't have to mega evolve.

 

[Anduril]

As far as Seismitoad is concerned, I think the reason why it is where it is is the lack of an electric weakness. However, it offers almost nothing except for that, as it is quite weak and outclassed by Kingdra as a special Swift Swimmer. As said before, there is actually no real reason to use Seismitoad over Swampert due to the higher bulk and power.
Edit: ninja'd

 

[theV8man]

We've been discussing Swampert for like 3 pages now. This thing should go to B- because:

Pros:
- Electric Immunity
- ITS BUUUUUULLLLLKYYYYYY

Cons:
- Weaker compared to other water sweepers
- Takes up your mega
- Doesn't get Swift Swim activated until turn two

Please don't call Mega Swampert a "wall-breaker." It's just not fair to the Pokemon that actually manage to overpower things. There's so many things that can check Mega Swampert it's ridiculous. I can send in things that aren't that bulky but have reliable recovery and just stall this guy out of rain turns. I honestly just don't see that much of a point in using this thing rather than the standard water sweepers. I'd rather use my mega for some nice support or to get some type synergy going. I also don't see how Swampert "crushes" Ferrothorn when half of those things run Power Whip and it loses at most 54% health from Hammer Arm without even being fully defensively invested. Sure that wears it down, but there are non-mega options that take Ferrothorn pretty well too. Or maybe I can just run Mega Heracross, switch it into Ferrothorn, and get a nearly guaranteed kill on the enemy team! But who needs Ferrothorn when I can just switch my Rotom-W in that have on half of my teams... Unless I'm missing out on something really big I don't see how Swampert deseves B, much less B+.

 

[Halcyon.]

Seismitoad doesn't even hit harder than Swampert, you just posted a calc of an 80 BP move vs a LO 110 BP move, yeah no shit it's gonna hit harder...

252+ Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 199-235 (58.3 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Seismitoad Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 157-187 (46 - 54.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Woah weird it does more damage now!

The point is that Seismitoad literally only out damages Swampert when it uses Hydro Pump...and it's not even hitting the right side of defenses...

 

[firehusky]

I was just mentioning that you could use seismitoad if you wanted to use a mega besides mega-swampert on your team. Mega-Swampert is overrated IMO, and his role can be filled by Pokemon that don't have to mega evolve.

Like Halcyon. said, I don't even know why you're comparing seismitoad to mega swampert. First off, mega swampert is a physical attacker, and seismitoad is a special attacker. Seismitoad has to rely on moves that have very shaky accuracy, like focus blast and hydro pump.

252+ SpA Life Orb Seismitoad Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arceus: 165-195 (37.1 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 171-202 (38.5 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Their damage output is similar, even with seismitoad using a life orb and a 110 base power move, while swampert is not holding a life orb, and is only using a 100 base power move. Swampert can also set up it's own rain, and it's bulk is much much better than seismitoad. It's great 100/110/110 bulk is very hard to come by for offensive sweepers like swampert.

edit: lol ninja'd :D

 

[MANNAT]

I literally just posted something about this at the end of the last page.

 

[Flamer]

Megapert hardly crushes mons like ferrothorn any better than Kabutops does. They both need to run Superpower/Low Kick and its not an OHKO anyway. If you want a mon that beats Ferrothorn reliably try Heracross, whos a very viable choice for rain and competes for the spot with Pert.

So far, the only unique pro that Swampert has to seperate itself from other Swift swimmers is that its bulkier. The only problem with that is, like I initially said, Pert needs to take 2 hits before it outspeeds all relevant mons, so its amazing bulk is effectively neutered. That poor pre mega speed is also very annoying when trying to mega on something like say a weakened Rotom-W which you can easily KO, 212 Speed means that you are slower than it and it can thus pain split or Burn you, you have no idea how many times Ive done this to people. You may say "He shouldnt have tried to mega there" but the issue is that Pert finds it very hard to mega unless it has a free switch on something it immediately threatens and outspeeds, theres not too many of those mons running around.

Also, why are people focusing on how Seismitoed "doesnt do the same job as Pert/Does its job worse"? No shit it does its job worse, thats why its sitting much lower in the rankings, the comparison was that if you want a swift swimmer that beats Thund-I then youre not limited to wasting a mega slot on something that does the exact same job as plenty of other swift swimmers. Kabutops is the comparison youll have to make, theyre both in the same rank (for now anyway) and do the same job.

Im not trying to say Swamperts isnt good, its just that it competes for a slot with so many mons who all bring relevant niches to rain, Pert brings nothing new and is thus almost completely outclassed by its non-mega counterparts, simply because they dont cost a mega.

 

[Kurona]

I literally just posted something about this at the end of the last page.

... the exact same thing you've been saying, yes. Which they responded to and countered. I don't know what you're trying to say here.

 

[firehusky]

Exactly, it doesn't have to invest fully in speed, so it can invest in bulk and HP with the remaining HP EVs



1) 105/75/75 isn't even shit bulk, it is OK as sweeper standards go.
2) Hydro pump and Focus Blast have 80% and 70% accuracy respectively not 50% , hax may screw you over a few times but everything can't have aura sphere and/or steam eruption.
3) Both mons are late game cleaners on swift swim teams.
4) Focus Blast can crush ferrothorn 7/10 times.
5) It takes out the physical walls that kabutops cannot.
6) Seismitoad doesn't take up a mega slot.

105/75/75 IS shit bulk compared to mega swampert's 100/110/110 bulk. No one ever said hydro pump and focus blast have 50% accuracy. 80% and 70% is horrible when you compare that to all of swampert's moves, which have perfect accuracy. Missing crucial moves wastes rain turns, but may also result in the fainting of one of your sweepers, which can turn the tides of battles. Okay, your third point just doesn't make any sense. Both mons are late game cleaners on swift swim teams. Isn't every mon on a rain team a late game cleaner lol? Focus blast can crush ferrothorn 7/10 times. Actually it can't, because focus blast can't even OHKO it, while ferro easily OHKOes with power whip, or stalls you out with leech seed. The probability of hitting two focus blasts in a row is EXTREMELY low. Point 5 also doesn't make any sense. So, seismitoad takes out physical walls that kabutops can't? Well guess what, swampert takes out special walls that seismitoad cannot. Sure, seismitoad doesn't take up a mega slot, but there aren't too many good rain megas to begin with. Mega scizor, mega manectric, mega swampert and mega heracross are pretty much the main ones. All those choices are very good on rain teams, so there isn't even much competition for a mega stone anyways.