Project Victim of the Week

[silver97]

Fuck didn't have time to post for the last VOTW.
Taking starmie as a counter :]

 

[FullLifeGames]

Check

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 24 HP / 228 Atk / 16 Def / 240 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fire Punch
- U-turn
- Iron Head
- Trick


Defensive Calcs
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 24 HP / 16 Def Jirachi: 147-173 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 24 HP / 16 Def Jirachi: 99-117 (28.5 - 33.7%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Ice Punch vs. 24 HP / 16 Def Jirachi: 55-65 (15.8 - 18.7%) -- possible 6HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 24 HP / 16 Def Jirachi: 43-51 (12.3 - 14.6%) -- possible 7HKO


Offensive Calc
228+ Atk Jirachi Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 104-124 (34.5 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


Jirachi beats Mega Meta 1v1 with this spread as the HP + Def EVs let it avoid any possible 2HKO from MegaGross (without SR or Spikes on the field) and Jirachi can hit MegaGross 3 times with Fire Punch before MegaGross hits Jirachi 3 times with Hammer Arm

I'm pretty sure a Check should switch in at least into one of the Pokemon's attack, but if you do that with Jirachi, you die then to two Hammer Arms, while MegaGross just gets 3HKO'd.
I don't know if you can fix this with a bulkier Wish set, but Scarf doesn't work.

 

[p2]

I'm pretty sure a Check should switch in at least into one of the Pokemon's attack, but if you do that with Jirachi, you die then to two Hammer Arms, while MegaGross just gets 3HKO'd.
I don't know if you can fix this with a bulkier Wish set, but Scarf doesn't work.

A check is when something gets a free turn in, whether it's by double switching, slow voltturn etc and can beat the other pokemon

A counter is something that switches into any of it's moves and can still win, I think Band Jirachi could counter this specific Mega Metagross, but Scarf is a lot more viable.

That Jirachi set beats MegaGross 1v1 (assuming hazards aren't up) and isn't completely terrible in the meta and by definition checks it

 

[Invok3r]

Check

(Yung Wobbuffet) Wobbuffet @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Counter
- Destiny Bond
- Encore
- Mirror Coat

Wobbuffet takes any hit that metagross can throw at it, and deal massive damage with counter. It can survive two max roll meteor mashes due to sitrus berry. The only reason it is not a counter is because meteor mash can get an attack boost.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wobbuffet: 333-393 (57 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[FullLifeGames]

A check is when something gets a free turn in, whether it's by double switching, slow voltturn etc and can beat the other pokemon

A counter is something that switches into any of it's moves and can still win, I think Band Jirachi could counter this specific Mega Metagross, but Scarf is a lot more viable.

That Jirachi set beats MegaGross 1v1 (assuming hazards aren't up) and isn't completely terrible in the meta and by definition checks it

Well that is not really true here. If the op would show it, (for some reason it's gone,) the definition for a check is this:
"Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if Pokémon A can win every time when switching into at least one of Pokemon B's attacks, without factoring in hax."
So no, Jirachi is not a Check.

 

[Hogg]

Well that is not really true here. If the op would show it, (for some reason it's gone,) the definition for a check is this:
"Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if Pokémon A can win every time when switching into at least one of Pokemon B's attacks, without factoring in hax."
So no, Jirachi is not a Check.

It would be a weak check regardless, because rocks being down means Jirachi is at risk of being 2HKO'd by Hammer Arm even if it gets a free switch. At best it's a revenge killer, and even then Jirachi will be heavily damaged in the process barring a Fire Punch burn.

 

[p2]

Well that is not really true here. If the op would show it, (for some reason it's gone,) the definition for a check is this:
"Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if Pokémon A can win every time when switching into at least one of Pokemon B's attacks, without factoring in hax."
So no, Jirachi is not a Check.

"Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."

It may be a weak check, but Jirachi still fits the definition of one

But if it's a problem, I'll just find something else that checks it

 

[Hogg]

"Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."

It may be a weak check, but Jirachi still fits the definition of one

But if it's a problem, I'll just find something else that checks it

My understanding is that Victim of the Week uses a somewhat different definition of check, just because otherwise 90% of the victims would be checked by Greninja or Talonflame.

That said, even with the above definition, Jirachi doesn't really check, because "even under the worst case scenario" means it should be able to check even if there are some entry hazards down.

More relevant:

COUNTER

Suicune @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

CroCune can switch into any of Megagross' moves, even with hazards down, and they all fail to 2HKO. In fact, even with rocks down, Megagross doesn't even have a guaranteed 3HKO, so even if CroCune gets unlucky and manages to get flinched, there's still a better than even chance that it will come out on top. CroCune can Rest off any damage and proceed to set up on Megagross, potentially burning it with Scald and becoming harder and harder to deal with.

In fact, even if there are 3 layers of Spikes plus rocks down, and Suicune switches in to Zen Headbutt, there's still an 83% chance that Suicune will be able to rest off the damage and begin setting up.

Relevant Calcs:

• 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 123-145 (30.4 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
• 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 123-145 (30.4 - 35.8%) -- 45.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 103-122 (25.4 - 30.1%) -- 96.8% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 69-82 (17 - 20.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 39-46 (9.6 - 11.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
• 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 123-145 (30.4 - 35.8%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 3 layers of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

As for offensively, Suicune needs some boosts to do real damage, but that's what CM is for!

• 4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 73-87 (24.2 - 28.9%) -- 98.4% chance to 4HKO

 

[p2]

My understanding is that Victim of the Week uses a somewhat different definition of check, just because otherwise 90% of the victims would be checked by Greninja or Talonflame.

That said, even with the above definition, Jirachi doesn't really check, because "even under the worst case scenario" means it should be able to check even if there are some entry hazards down.

Yeah, I suppose I'll change mine then

 

[n64lord]

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 80 Def / 172 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Scald / Waterfall
- Crunch / Dragon Tail

With Gyarados getting Crunch, we now have a more reliable way of dealing with Mega Gross. SpDef Gyara has always been shunned upon compared to it's mega since MegaDos gets MB Taunt. But that doesn't mean normal Gyara doesn't stand a chance. Scald allows you to fish for burns in a 1v1 and crunch gives you reliability. It is also a very useful switch-in for Zard Y, Greninja, and Keldeo. Generally, mons that are able to apply a ton of pressure to balanced teams can be dealt with by Gyara 1v1-ing them.

Scald dosen't pan out well, even though you aren't invested in attack at all, as is crunch, whose neutral coverage is unimportant for a defensive gyarados.

twave/waterfall/resttalk is the most popular and usually most useful defensive gyara , as it can't be set up on by most offensive pokemon even if they have substitute and you get useful resistances to keldeo's STABs, the bulk for most of greninja's attacks (not really grass knot though) and intimidate every time you use it instead of only the first time. Normal gyarados can use taunt just as much as its mega...

I don't really recomend dragon tail on spdef gyarados or its mega variant unless you are packing around a spikes team, as it will probbably be only used to stop other walls from phasing you out, and loses most of its damage when they abuse the non-offensive nature of gyarados to defog. Yes you can resub if they only have one pokemon to break it's subs left and you force it out, but that is a momentum killer.

 

[tigerustin]

Lanorus-Therian
Check

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 24 Def / 232 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge

Lando-t is a check because it is able to switch in on hammer arm. Standard moveset.

Calcs:
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 56-66 (17.5 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 252-296 (83.7 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It is able to switch in on a hammer arm. However hammer arm isn't that common on Mega-Metagross since that drops its imperative 110 speed tier. Even if Landorus-T manages to switch-in on a full-health Mega-Metagross, (252 Atk Jolly Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 252-296 (83.7 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) it fails to OHKO with Earthquake. Metagross can hit back with Ice Punch (-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 340-400 (106.5 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO) guaranteeing OHKO. "Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax." Thus Landorus-T does not qualify as a check.

All calcs done with 145 ATK, 150 DEF, and Tough Claws on Metagross.


EDIT: This Metagross does not carry Grass Knot, please ignore this post.

 

[tigerustin]

Apologies for the double post, I'm way too forgetful. :$

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Scald
- Recover
- Toxic

Quagsire is a Counter. Zen Headbutt is a 3HKO at best, meaning Quag can come in and proceed to kill (albeit slowly). Metagross by alternating between Recover and Earthquake. If he's feeling lucky, he can also spam scald to burn Metagross, which only makes his job easier. The only way Metagross wins is if he flinches, but that's hax and hax doesn't count.

Your analysis did not address Mega-Metagross carrying Grass Knot.

http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/metagross

Although not too commonly seen, Grass Knot on Mega-Metagross is recommended by the dex to take down Slowbro and Quagsire: 0 SpA Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 340-400 (86.2 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Grass Knot is not affected by the potential burn brought by Quagsire's Scald. Thus Quagsire is only a counter to non-Grass Knot Mega-Metagross, but cannot even be considered a check against Grass Knot Metagross.

EDIT: This Metagross does not carry Grass Knot, please ignore this post.

 

[Clone]

Your analysis did not address Mega-Metagross carrying Grass Knot.

http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/metagross

Although not too commonly seen, Grass Knot on Mega-Metagross is recommended by the dex to take down Slowbro and Quagsire: 0 SpA Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 340-400 (86.2 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Grass Knot is not affected by the potential burn brought by Quagsire's Scald. Thus Quagsire is only a counter to non-Grass Knot Mega-Metagross, but cannot even be considered a check against Grass Knot Metagross.

This Metagross doesnt have Grass Knot, so its irrelevant to my post.

 

[silver97]

Counter

Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Psyshock
starmie resists every attack from metagross and can just recover and deal some damage and possibly burn it with scald
This is what metagross can do at best:
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 36 Def Starmie: 117-138 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- 95.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Starmie Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 79-94 (26.2 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

[silver97]

It's a hard check at best. Some Metagross use Grass Knot.

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 182-216 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

EDIT : Hey, 900 messages :o

Like clone said above this metagross doesn't have it, so this calc is irrelevant

 

[tigerustin]

This Metagross doesnt have Grass Knot, so its irrelevant to my post.

Sorry my bad, I didn't take the time to read the OP.

 

[Hogg]

So, all of this discussion on what Megagross does and doesn't carry kind of speaks to an issue I have with OU Victim of the Week. A specific set is always chosen, and we can see that set, so we can hyper-specialize to counter it. It leads to really specific counters, like Pyroar in the last one... but no one in their right mind would add Pyroar to their team as a Sableye counter because there's like a 40% or 50% chance that Sableye will be using Dark Pulse instead of Shadow Ball, and will shit all over Pyroar.

Same thing here... we are all free to use, say, bulky Waters to counter Megagross because we know it doesn't carry GK - but GK is common enough that in an actual game, you have to scout out a bit before letting your bulky Water stay in against Gross.

In the UU version of VotW, they allow for the slashing of moves, so in this instance it might be Hammer Arm/Grass Knot or whatever. I know it makes threats harder to counter, but it's a little bit more realistic IMO, because these are the things that actually have to be taken into account when teambuilding. Obviously I wouldn't go crazy with slashing other move options - it should still basically be the same set - but would it be realistic to have multiple move options sometimes?

 

[firehusky]

It is able to switch in on a hammer arm. However hammer arm isn't that common on Mega-Metagross since that drops its imperative 110 speed tier. Even if Landorus-T manages to switch-in on a full-health Mega-Metagross, (252 Atk Jolly Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 252-296 (83.7 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) it fails to OHKO with Earthquake. Metagross can hit back with Ice Punch (-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 340-400 (106.5 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO) guaranteeing OHKO. "Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax." Thus Landorus-T does not qualify as a check.

All calcs done with 145 ATK, 150 DEF, and Tough Claws on Metagross.


EDIT: This Metagross does not carry Grass Knot, please ignore this post.

Sorry, I made that post late at night. Feel free to ignore it, I probably wasn't thinking clearly lol.

 

[Random Passerby]

Reserving Victini as a counter

Name: Victini
Status: Counter

Victini @ Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- U-turn
- Final Gambit

Victini resists all of Mega Metagross's moves and can outspeed and OHKO Mega Metagross with STAB V-Create. Bolt Strike is an option for Victini to catch bulky waters that try to switch-in on V-Create while U-Turn generates momentum for the team. Final Gambit can be used in the last slot to wear down a specific wall faster so that a teammate can sweep.

Calculations:
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Victini: 105-125 (30.7 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 378-446 (125.5 - 148.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

EDIT: Sorry Lil YoshiXD , didn't notice the reservation. Anyway, anyone tried Scarf Hydreigon? Can't calculate now but it seems Modest Dark Pulse can deal lots of damage to Mega Meta (just watch out for Hammer Arm)

 

[PsyManiac]

Reserving Victini as a counter

Name: Victini
Status: Counter

Victini @ Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- U-turn
- Final Gambit

Victini resists all of Mega Metagross's moves and can outspeed and OHKO Mega Metagross with STAB V-Create. Bolt Strike is an option for Victini to catch bulky waters that try to switch-in on V-Create while U-Turn generates momentum for the team. Final Gambit can be used in the last slot to wear down a specific wall faster so that a teammate can sweep.

Calculations:
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Victini: 105-125 (30.7 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 378-446 (125.5 - 148.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Agility+Earthquake and it's gone...

 

[Celticpride]

Agility+Earthquake and it's gone...

It's a counter based on the posted set, which is one of it's more effective ones. EQ+Agility is not that good either because you are hard checked by a bunch of different things depending on what you drop for coverage.

 

[Zebstrika]

Not only that but victini survives earthquake, it does like 82 % max

It even survives adamant
252+ Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 260-306 (76.2 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Reserving Victini as a counter

Name: Victini
Status: Counter

Victini @ Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- U-turn
- Final Gambit

Victini resists all of Mega Metagross's moves and can outspeed and OHKO Mega Metagross with STAB V-Create. Bolt Strike is an option for Victini to catch bulky waters that try to switch-in on V-Create while U-Turn generates momentum for the team. Final Gambit can be used in the last slot to wear down a specific wall faster so that a teammate can sweep.

Calculations:
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Victini: 105-125 (30.7 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 378-446 (125.5 - 148.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Reserving Chandelure

Just realized how shaky Chandelure is, reserving Victini instead

edit: nvm i'll jus use different set

 

[PsyManiac]

Not only that but victini survives earthquake, it does like 82 % max

It even survives adamant
252+ Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 260-306 (76.2 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Messed up with the calc lol what I saw was v-create against metagaross

 

[Invok3r]

I am pretty sure metagross having eq is irrelevant, since the set aragorn posted had hammer arm over eq.