Metagame NP: RU Stage 5: Gods and Monsters (HOUNDOOMINITE IS BL2, READ POST #178)

[boltsandbombers]

Well, now that UU has banned lopunnite we can say farewell to the broken bunny. Hopefully with that and Galladite gone we can have a balanced tier :)

 

[GOthee]

Lets discuss now Cresselia Superb bulk and premier tank in the meta.

 

[Lemonade]

Yesssssss playable meta woo

 

[Hot N Cold]

Lets discuss now Cresselia Superb bulk and premier tank in the meta.

or better this one

 

[Holiday]

Maybe I'm in the minority but I can see Cresselia getting BL2 like in BW2. It's just so bulky ;-; anyone else?

 

[boltsandbombers]

Maybe I'm in the minority but I can see Cresselia getting BL2 like in BW2. It's just so bulky ;-; anyone else?

Nah, I can't see this really happening. Don't get me wrong, Cress is easily one of the biggest threats in the tier but there are enough checks to it, and I can't see it as broken. Especially with the drop of Houndoom being one more dark type that is immune to its stab moves and threatens it.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was suspected, but for the most part I feel it's manageable in this metagame.

 

[GOthee]

or better this one

If thats Mega Pidgeot I´ll be glad to discuss it.

 

[Hot N Cold]

Maybe I'm in the minority but I can see Cresselia getting BL2 like in BW2. It's just so bulky ;-; anyone else?

Cress unlike Moltres have a million of solid counters, which actually beats Cresselia with no damage and are really viable. See Escavalier, SB Meloetta, Drapion, Skuntank or Doublade, these ones are the most close to counter Cresselia but pretty sure you can use stuff like Houndoom as offensive check to Cress on more offensive teams oriented, i guess people just struggle to beat bulky mons with a nice utility as Cresselia but which are easily to wall, stall and to beat in the end.

 

[GOthee]

Cress unlike Moltres have a million of solid counters, which actually beats Cresselia with no damage and are really viable. See Escavalier, SB Meloetta, Drapion, Skuntank or Doublade, these ones are the most close to counter Cresselia but pretty sure you can use stuff like Houndoom as offensive check to Cress on more offensive teams oriented, i guess people just struggle to beat bulky mons with a nice utility as Cresselia but which are easily to wall, stall and to beat in the end.

Id say there arent many counters to cresselya since support movest cripple dark offensive pokemons on the switch. Its still risky switch with my dark types. My main problem is that with that bulk he takes too long to die and meanwhile he can cripple or wear down the enemy. If i just send another thank, it needs to be a phazer or it just set up in your face.

 

[Hot N Cold]

Id say there arent many counters to cresselya since support movest cripple dark offensive pokemons on the switch. Its still risky switch with my dark types. My main problem is that with that bulk he takes too long to die and meanwhile he can cripple or wear down the enemy. If i just send another thank, it needs to be a phazer or it just set up in your face.

If you're using a support cress is definitely less scary than other variants, not only dark types beats cresselia tho

And well, by that logic I can tell you Cresselia wears down because usually checks stuff with Knock Off so losing leftovers in the process and only 8 PP to stall (which lacks of power, so you're forced to moonlight every time).

 

[col49]

yeah, i have to to say, the recent band-wagoning against cress seems totally unwarranted to me. cresselia does indeed have significant bulk, some decent utility options, and a possibly threatening endgame via cm, but the current meta is positively amassed with significant, generally solid (read: having use beyond an acting cress reponse) checks and counters. cm requires significant support to function b/c it's reliance on mono-attacking coverage, which can only be circumvented by forgoing crucial utilities to a status-weak, conservative booster (dropping sub or sleep talk on a rest variant), meaning that it will almost always be forced to rely heavily on teammates to handle 'mons that can boost up alongside it, such as doublade, drapion, and so forth. the 'support' variants, as effective as they are as annoyers to offensive, only effectively respond to immediate, non-boosting sweepers, aside from the few it can immediately apply pressure to (like virizion), and to me, a vanilla wall (bulky as it may be) doesn't present itself as a significant, ban-worthy threat to a meta such as this. the primary arguments came across moreso as impatient users not wanting to play the overextended game cress would typically present, which comes across as odd to me, given how abundant fatmons already are in this tier. in this regard, players should already be considering the necessities with which to break down such teams, and addressing 'mons similar, if not identical to cress just sorta falls in naturally, at least to me.

 

[EonX]

Hopping in on the Cresselia discussion for a moment. Yes, Cresselia is quite possibly THE bulkiest Pokemon in the tier. Levitate means that it's totally immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, which can make it even harder to wear down. However, there are a couple of things that really hold Cresselia back. First of all, that Psychic-typing is complete garbage defensively. Levitate grants it a Ground immunity and the only notable resistance it gets out of its typing is Fighting. Compound this with a weakness to Bug, Ghost, and DARK and you have a really fat mon that gets held back by its typing more than it would like. It can very, very easily provide support for wallbreakers in the form of Thunder Wave. While this can be completely devastating, Cresselia has to give up its ability to be an offensive presence to do so. However, there's one important thing we're all forgetting about Cresselia, and it actually has nothing to do about Cresselia herself: Mega Lopunny.

With the UU Council swinging the axe on Mega Bunny, that just made p. much every Cresselia answer out there a lot more viable. Think of the best answers to Cresselia and then think of how they fared against Mega Lopunny. Escavalier, Drapion, Skuntank, Durant, and Houndoom (sort of) are generally viewed as the best answers to Cresselia. Guess what? They all lost soundly to Mega Lopunny. With the bunny terror gone, they should get at least a bit more common, which makes Cresselia a bit easier to handle. Maybe it's just me, but I really want to see how the meta develops w/o Mega Lopunny and which things will become easier / harder to handle without it being around anymore.

 

[Pooch13]

Hi, so i'm not on too often but ive played some ORAS RU to know a few things, but something that has been puzzling my mind is why Liepard is ranked so low or doesn't see much usage ? Prankster encore is powerful af vs many threats on the RU tier (maybe even more than NU which i play very often). Also being a faster pursuit trapper than Doom has its pros and access to Knock off for pursuit/sucker punch/ knock off mind games can be very good. It also has U-turn for momentum and you can even go for taunt instead of encore (although why would you ?) and priority T-wave which can be a life saver.
I know it lacks the coverage that doom may have but it has a lot of pros that Doom lacks as a pursuit trapper and "stall breaking" capabilities (not really a stall breaker but you can encore cress/Crodino/reuniclus on status moves/CM, sharpedo on protect, setup sweepers on boosting moves like pango on SD, slurpuff on BD, or encore Sub users like scept etc.).

Also i know that Whimsi can do the same encore annoying thing with some useful resistances but compared to doom on paper it seems a bit better and even though doom takes neutral damage from moon blast its not that bulky.

Just more an inquiry than anything else, if someone could clear my thoughts id appreciate it.

 

[Kableye]

Hi, so i'm not on too often but ive played some ORAS RU to know a few things, but something that has been puzzling my mind is why Liepard is ranked so low or doesn't see much usage ? Prankster encore is powerful af vs many threats on the RU tier (maybe even more than NU which i play very often). Also being a faster pursuit trapper than Doom has its pros and access to Knock off for pursuit/sucker punch/ knock off mind games can be very good. It also has U-turn for momentum and you can even go for taunt instead of encore (although why would you ?) and priority T-wave which can be a life saver.
I know it lacks the coverage that doom may have but it has a lot of pros that Doom lacks as a pursuit trapper and "stall breaking" capabilities (not really a stall breaker but you can encore cress/Crodino/reuniclus on status moves/CM, sharpedo on protect, setup sweepers on boosting moves like pango on SD, slurpuff on BD, or encore Sub users like scept etc.).

Also i know that Whimsi can do the same encore annoying thing with some useful resistances but compared to doom on paper it seems a bit better and even though doom takes neutral damage from moon blast its not that bulky.

Just more an inquiry than anything else, if someone could clear my thoughts id appreciate it.

Because Liepard has gotten pretty predictable these days. It's still good against "bad players", but no good player is going to Belly Drum on a Liepard knowing it could be carrying Encore.

EDIT: What Afro said as well, its pretty frail and hard to fit on teams

 

[Afro Smash]

I dont think that's the reason, just because you know its encore can stop a set up, doesn't stop it stopping it.

The more likely reason is its pure dark typing low defenses make it harder to fit on a team than skuntank or drapion, which also have better utility.

Its not a bad mon but its niche isnt generally big enough to warrant a place on most ru teams, especially when whimsicott is readily available.

 

[Pooch13]

I dont think that's the reason, just because you know its encore can stop a set up, doesn't stop it stopping it.

The more likely reason is its pure dark typing low defenses make it harder to fit on a team than skuntank or drapion, which also have better utility.

Its not a bad mon but its niche isnt generally big enough to warrant a place on most ru teams, especially when whimsicott is readily available.

yeah seemed to me more like it was outclassed by whimsi and its frailty, just thought it was a decent answer for cress/stall/setup sweepers. thnx Afro smash

 

[MrCookiepants]

Hopping in on the Cresselia discussion for a moment. Yes, Cresselia is quite possibly THE bulkiest Pokemon in the tier. Levitate means that it's totally immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, which can make it even harder to wear down. However, there are a couple of things that really hold Cresselia back. First of all, that Psychic-typing is complete garbage defensively. Levitate grants it a Ground immunity and the only notable resistance it gets out of its typing is Fighting. Compound this with a weakness to Bug, Ghost, and DARK and you have a really fat mon that gets held back by its typing more than it would like.

I've had enough of hearing this, honestly. Bulky psychics are a NIGHTMARE to deal with in every tier. Cresselia don't give a shit about your super effective move unless it's STAB. And Bug/Ghost STAB is not common whatsoever (there are like 5 usable ghosts from NU to OU, come on...). Dark is the only type Psychics really have to be afraid of.

 

[phantom]

I don't think Cresselia is a huge problem either, but I agree with the above that calling its defensive typing garbage is a pretty big stretch. Psychic-type is about average in my opinion; if Cresselia was say Bug or Ice that point would hold more merit, but it doesn't. I'll offer this as to why I don't believe Cresselia is suspect worthy though: to me, something that's suspect worthy has to be able to shift the meta in some form, heavily restrict choice, or cause some form of disruption, such as Mega Gallade discouraging the use of defensive teams, Mega Lopunny discouraging more offensive ones, Zoroark turning matches into a guessing game turn one, or Yanmega mandating the use of very specific checks etc. Now whether or not these things are perceived as too much or a problem is the question of whether or not the thing is ban worthy. I don't really feel like Cresselia does any of that. I believe that it's equally a threat to offensive and more defensive playstyles depending on the set; however, it is manageable for both due to the wide variety of viable checks that also have a ton of utility outside of beating Cresselia, such as Escavalier, Drapion, Doublade, etc. Even outside of these types of Pokemon, there are other ways to bring it down. I've been able to exploit Cresselia's lackluster recovery move, Moonlight, with Mega Abomasnow's hail, and I just had Mega Abomasnow set up a Swords Dance and overpower it. Cresselia's general passivity has also became apparent when you can use less-obvious checks such as Megahorn Rhyperior which can easily shrug off a Psychic and do a significant amount of damage back. Even notwithstanding the above, if Cresselia were to never exist in the tier, you'd still be using the same Pokemon that check it due to the presence of other powerful Psychic-types or because they're simply good at what they do; odds are, if your team can't handle Cresselia, it's probably going to have a rough time with Reuniclus or Meloetta as well.

 

[GOthee]

I don't think Cresselia is a huge problem either, but I agree with the above that calling its defensive typing garbage is a pretty big stretch. Psychic-type is about average in my opinion; if Cresselia was say Bug or Ice that point would hold more merit, but it doesn't. I'll offer this as to why I don't believe Cresselia is suspect worthy though: to me, something that's suspect worthy has to be able to shift the meta in some form, heavily restrict choice, or cause some form of disruption, such as Mega Gallade discouraging the use of defensive teams, Mega Lopunny discouraging more offensive ones, Zoroark turning matches into a guessing game turn one, or Yanmega mandating the use of very specific checks etc. Now whether or not these things are perceived as too much or a problem is the question of whether or not the thing is ban worthy. I don't really feel like Cresselia does any of that. I believe that it's equally a threat to offensive and more defensive playstyles depending on the set; however, it is manageable for both due to the wide variety of viable checks that also have a ton of utility outside of beating Cresselia, such as Escavalier, Drapion, Doublade, etc. Even outside of these types of Pokemon, there are other ways to bring it down. I've been able to exploit Cresselia's lackluster recovery move, Moonlight, with Mega Abomasnow's hail, and I just had Mega Abomasnow set up a Swords Dance and overpower it. Cresselia's general passivity has also became apparent when you can use less-obvious checks such as Megahorn Rhyperior which can easily shrug off a Psychic and do a significant amount of damage back. Even notwithstanding the above, if Cresselia were to never exist in the tier, you'd still be using the same Pokemon that check it due to the presence of other powerful Psychic-types or because they're simply good at what they do; odds are, if your team can't handle Cresselia, it's probably going to have a rough time with Reuniclus or Meloetta as well.

Your arguments are pretty convincing. Good examples how underused mons counter her such as Abomasnow or Rhyperior, this proves how not only dark types check this thing. Id like to addd more but i think besides Cresselia just beign extremly bulky and unpredictability of its sets shutting down offensive or stall to some degree Cress is only a very good pokemon, but I´m not sure worth suspect.

 

[EonX]

Yeah, calling its defensive typing garbage was overdoing it a bit, but I also wanted to make sure that everyone knew its defensive typing wasn't setting the world on fire either. Anyway, moving away from Cresselia (sort of) for a moment, I wanted to share something that I've been playing around with lately and having a good bit of success with:

+

So guess what guys? Double Dragon is possible in RU now! Albeit it's very limited in choice, that doesn't mean it's any less dangerous than it is in higher tiers. With virtually all of RU's Steel-types having no reliable recovery and only one common defensive Fairy-type (I guess 3 if you count Whimsicott and Granbull) Double Dragon cores need very little support to offset their lack of variety. Dragalge and Tyrantrum is the simplest way to go imo. Dragalge hits from the special side while Tyrantrum hits from the physical side, meaning you can just hit every Steel-type on their weaker defense stat. What's even better is that all 4 common Dragons in RU (Alge, Tyrant, Mega Tile, Drudd) have coverage moves to hit Steel-types with. Fairy-types are also at risk against Dragalge and Druddigon while Tyrantrum and Mega Sceptile have secondary STABs to make them wary of switching it at will. Whatever route you take, I highly recommend having one of Dragalge or Tyrantrum just to be able to hit super hard right off the bat. Running both will put immense pressure on opposing Steel- and Fairy-types though, which can make it easier for stuff like Mega Sharpedo, Mega Sceptile, and Jolteon to sweep late-game. The drawback to using a Double Dragon core is generally the same as in higher tiers; shared weaknesses. That said, there's only a total of 3 common Fairy-types in RU while (at least with Alge + Tyrant) only Rhyperior commonly runs Ground-type moves. I personally love running these two with Thunder Wave Cresselia. Cresselia gives me a very reliable switch-in for Rhyperior while also spreading paralysis to make these two even more effective vs. offense. Finally, this leads me into something a bit controversial that I've been thinking about:
I think Tyrantrum is literally a direct upgrade from Druddigon. Sounds crazy, but think about it for a second. Druddigon has always been that hard-hitting Dragon-type that can hit Steel-types and even set up Rocks. Well, Tyrantrum can do that too, and now it has Outrage to be on equal footing with Druddigon. I think it basically comes down to whether you want more special bulk + priority + pure Dragon typing defensively (Druddigon) or if you want more Speed + Ice Fang + secondary Rock STAB (Tyrantrum)

 

[Senpai D.M]

Mega Lopunny brought a bulkier meta to handle it along with new megas, I can see HO back on the rise :]

Also we got new wallbreakers for stall to enjoy

 

[TheTraininator]

Serebii has confirmed that the Unova Starters are finally going to be released witht their Hidden Abilities! This means Contrary Serperior and Reckles Emboar, who both will get significantly better as a result I would imamgine.

 

[EonX]

So Molk did a pretty scary comparison that I'm going to link. Before I do this, I just want to remind you that Serperior has 75 / 95 / 95 bulk and base 113 Speed. Ok, now you can look at this monstrosity: http://pastebin.com/wWjmbsp4 Here's the set I expect to see the most of come January 9th:

Serperior @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power Fire
- Giga Drain

Literally, all Serperior needs for coverage is Leaf Storm, Dragon Pulse, and Hidden Power Fire. This hits everything in RU for neutral damage, at worst. Serperior can get to +2 pretty easily on virtually any defensive Pokemon it can threaten out (think Alomomola, Gligar, Rhyperior, etc.) and possibly to +4 if it can KO the switch-in with +2 Leaf Storm. Dragon Pulse nails Dragons and has strong neutral coverage overall. HP Fire destroys shit like AV Escavalier and opposing Grass-types. The last slot is basically free, so I expect Giga Drain will be common as a more conservative STAB once Serp is up to +4. There is next to nothing that will wall this thing in RU, so your best bet will be revenge killing it with stuff like Fletchinder, Mega Pidgeot (must be Mega Evolved already) and Choice Scarf users. However, do note that Scarf users will need to hit it for super effective damage thanks to its above average bulk. Oh, and Mega Sceptile loses in case you were wondering why I didn't mention it with faster stuff. +2 Dragon Pulse OHKOes and it can't OHKO back with its own Dragon Pulse. Even Mega Sharpedo will have a hard time OHKOing Serperior if Serp is at full HP as Ice Fang tops out at 102%.

 

[Hot N Cold]

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Cresselia: 142-168 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Cresselia: 281-331 (63.2 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
SpD Cresselia gets 2HKO after SR, so SpD Cresselia cant switch in and you're getting +4 after killing the Cresselia lmao

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragalge: 208-247 (62.2 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Same as Cresselia after Stealth Rock and Leaf Storm.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Amoonguss: 255-302 (59 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Get your prior damage on Amoonguss like 30~ to guarantee the kill.


The only way to deal with Contrary LO serperior is via already bulky mons which takes nothing from Leaf Storm as Amoonguss with Assault Vest or Drapion Assault Vest / Choice Scarf, and then Fletchinder/Moltres Scarf (the second one lacks of recovery same as Scarf Drapion).

Serperior @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Dragon Pulse

Knock Off Serperior. The idea is dismantling some of his best checks on the first turns as against scarfers or assault vest mons (his best checks), so you can beat them lately. I feel no Giga Drain will down much faster Serperior but still is more agressive and harder to deal with it.

 

[mallpal]

something people are forgetting is that reckless emboar is also going to be released. what's more, it's probably not going to go up by usage or be banned, but it'll be a cool wallbreaker:

252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 138-164 (41.4 - 49.2%) -- 77.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Wild Charge vs. 104 HP / 248+ Def Alomomola: 247-291 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

slap a scarf on and it's a good check to serperior, too.