Resource Don't Use That; Use This (ORAS Version)

[firehusky]

Lol honestly it doesn't even make a difference, since not a lot of stuff on trick room can even outspeed max IVs neutral nature speed ferrothorn under trick room. But the point is pretty valid, like how on a special attacker, you can drop the attack IVs to 0 to take minimum damage from foul play and confusion damage.
EDIT: Basically what I meant was that there aren't lots of mons on trick room other than ferrothorn itself that are base 20 speed, so in all honesty, it's not really needed.

 

[Kurona]

I might even argue there's a little worth running 31 IVs and 4 speed EVs on non-gyro ball ferros to get the jump on Mega Sableye.

 

[firehusky]

I might even argue there's a little worth running 31 IVs and 4 speed EVs on non-gyro ball ferros to get the jump on Mega Sableye.

Well ferrothorn can't exactly do anything to sableye anyways, since it can't set up hazards due to magic bounce, and power whip is pitifully weak. I guess you could say that if sableye is weakened, it could be "revenge killed" (lololol the thought of ferrothorn revenge killing something) by ferrothorn. I guess I don't see ferro tanking a hit with 4 extra EVs in something. But the situation that sableye is weakened to the point that non invested power whip can KO it is pretty rare, so yeah, there's kind of a trade off.

 

[Flare Blitzle]

I might even argue there's a little worth running 31 IVs and 4 speed EVs on non-gyro ball ferros to get the jump on Mega Sableye.

And what purpose would that serve? Mega Sableye sets up all over Ferrothorn regardless of outspeeding because Ferro can't do anything to it, while in return Ferro gets burnt and set up on.

 

[SketchUp]

Don't Use This

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Low Kick / Power-Up Punch
- Power-Up Punch / Ice Punch / Night Slash
- Shadow Sneak

Why it's bad:

I have seen this Greninja set a few times in RMT's and some matches, and I am surprised why people run this set. It doesn't seem very bad at first sight, as PuP boosts Greninja's attack so it can fire heavy hitting Gunk Shots and Low Kicks, but it loses on coverage and it makes him very easier to wall because he only uses physical moves. The difference between 252 Atk Gunk Shot and Low Kick and 40 Atk Gunk Shot and Low Kick is very small, and the coverage options it loses are a much bigger issue. Even when it can boost its attack with Power-Up Punch, it is too frail to set up these Power-Up Punches and pokemon that can revenge kill it don't care about Shadow Sneak (even Latios can live a supereffective STAB +1 252 atk shadow sneak) and this makes it much easier to handle, even with the priority it has. Ice Punch and Night Slash are also both suboptimal options, as a Ice Beam and Dark Pulse does the same damage, even uninvested, so you need to set up (which is pretty difficult) to outdamage the mixed set.

Use This Instead:

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Low Kick / Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse / Grass Knot

Why it's OP

First of all, this is just an example of the moves you can use on Greninja. Greninja has much more combinations of moves like Extrasensory and Hidden Power Fire. This Greninja set is far more threatening, as physical walls who could threaten physical Greninja don't want to take a hard-hitting STAB hit and the special walls still get hit hard by Gunk Shot or Low Kick. The coverage the mixed set offers is much better, as you can threaten nearly every pokemon in OU. Pokemon who didn't really care about the physical set like Landorus-T and Tentacruel fear the mixed set much more because Greninja can hit them supereffectively.

 

[Politoad]

Don't Use This

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Low Kick / Power-Up Punch
- Power-Up Punch / Ice Punch / Night Slash
- Shadow Sneak

Why it's bad:

I have seen this Greninja set a few times in RMT's and some matches, and I am surprised why people run this set. It doesn't seem very bad at first sight, as PuP boosts Greninja's attack so it can fire heavy hitting Gunk Shots and Low Kicks, but it loses on coverage and it makes him very easier to wall because he only uses physical moves. The difference between 252 Atk Gunk Shot and Low Kick and 40 Atk Gunk Shot and Low Kick is very small, and the coverage options it loses are a much bigger issue. Even when it can boost its attack with Power-Up Punch, it is too frail to set up these Power-Up Punches and pokemon that can revenge kill it don't care about Shadow Sneak (even Latios can live a supereffective STAB +1 252 atk shadow sneak) and this makes it much easier to handle, even with the priority it has. Ice Punch and Night Slash are also both suboptimal options, as a Ice Beam and Dark Pulse does the same damage, even uninvested, so you need to set up (which is pretty difficult) to outdamage the mixed set.

Use This Instead:

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Low Kick / Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse / Grass Knot

Why it's OP

First of all, this is just an example of the moves you can use on Greninja. Greninja has much more combinations of moves like Extrasensory and Hidden Power Fire. This Greninja set is far more threatening, as physical walls who could threaten physical Greninja don't want to take a hard-hitting STAB hit and the special walls still get hit hard by Gunk Shot or Low Kick. The coverage the mixed set offers is much better, as you can threaten nearly every pokemon in OU. Pokemon who didn't really care about the physical set like Landorus-T and Tentacruel fear the mixed set much more because Greninja can hit them supereffectively.

small nitpick, run 92 Atk EVs in order to OHKO heatran after stealth rock (which is ensured) I feel like Dark Pulse should be only slashed mainly because Grass Knot doesn't hit any significant besides keldeo, and dark pulse crushes megagross and has decent coverage too.

 

[MANNAT]

small nitpick, run 92 Atk EVs in order to OHKO heatran after stealth rock (which is ensured) I feel like Dark Pulse should be only slashed mainly because Grass Knot doesn't hit any significant besides keldeo, and dark pulse crushes megagross and has decent coverage too.

Grass knot also hits crocune.

 

[Politoad]

Grass knot also hits crocune.

That's literally the only other thing :x which is not even super common

 

[jbtc10]

And what purpose would that serve? Mega Sableye sets up all over Ferrothorn regardless of outspeeding because Ferro can't do anything to it, while in return Ferro gets burnt and set up on.

0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 76-90 (25 - 29.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Running a mere 4 speed EV's means that Mega Sab can't reliably switch in on Ferro if it has around 55% as it risks being 2HKO'd. That actually is worth considering on non-Gyro Ferro as it lessens the free turn bait you are to Sab and is a sneaky way of finishing it off seeing as most Sableye users will think they can switch in and get a free recover.

 

[Karxrida]

small nitpick, run 92 Atk EVs in order to OHKO heatran after stealth rock (which is ensured) I feel like Dark Pulse should be only slashed mainly because Grass Knot doesn't hit any significant besides keldeo, and dark pulse crushes megagross and has decent coverage too.

Grass Knot also hits Mega Slowbro harder than Dark Pulse since it's so heavy.

 

[Politoad]

Grass Knot also hits Mega Slowbro harder than Dark Pulse since it's so heavy.

It barely matters, M-Slowbro is 2HKOed by both variants.

 

[Karxrida]

It barely matters, M-Slowbro is 2HKOed by both variants.

It does more damage to SpD variants (can 2HKO a +1 Bro while Dark Pulse can't) and doubles as a more reliable alternative for hitting Hippowdon, Mega Gyarados (Low Kick is not a guaranteed OHKO without SR while Grass Knot always OHKOs, plus Greninja can revenge since +1 STABs never OHKO a healthy ninja even with SR), Tyranitar (Low Kick does it too but w/e), Mega Swampert, Quagsire, and sufficiently weakened Azumarill. Oh and it lets you get past Alomomola.

 

[Politoad]

It does more damage to SpD variants (can 2HKO a +1 Bro while Dark Pulse can't) and doubles as a more reliable alternative for hitting Hippowdon, Mega Gyarados (Low Kick is not a guaranteed OHKO without SR while Grass Knot always OHKOs, plus Greninja can revenge since +1 STABs never OHKO a healthy ninja even with SR), Tyranitar (Low Kick does it too but w/e), Mega Swampert, Quagsire, and sufficiently weakened Azumarill. Oh and it lets you get past Alomomola.

Hippowdon is just OHKOed by Hydro Pump, Azumarill is hit by Gunk Shot, Quagsire and Alomomola are pretty much beaten by other moves (quag by hydro pump, mola by dark pulse)

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

Hippowdon is just OHKOed by Hydro Pump, Azumarill is hit by Gunk Shot, Quagsire and Alomomola are pretty uncommon so imo you can't count them.

If something is B- or higher on the viability list, you can't just say "they're too rare to matter". A B- rank is a high enough rank to consider something a threat and should still be taken account when talking about threats. CroCune, Quagsire and Alomomola are all reasonable threats that should not just be brushed off.

 

[Karxrida]

Hippowdon is just OHKOed by Hydro Pump, Azumarill is hit by Gunk Shot, Quagsire and Alomomola are pretty uncommon so imo you can't count them.

I know Hydro Pump and Gunk Shot always OHKO, which is why I said more reliable alternative.

It does more damage to SpD variants (can 2HKO a +1 Bro while Dark Pulse can't) and doubles as a more reliable alternative for hitting Hippowdon, Mega Gyarados (Low Kick is not a guaranteed OHKO without SR while Grass Knot always OHKOs, plus Greninja can revenge since +1 STABs never OHKO a healthy ninja even with SR), Tyranitar (Low Kick does it too but w/e), Mega Swampert, Quagsire, and sufficiently weakened Azumarill. Oh and it lets you get past Alomomola.

Also what Sanger said.

 

[Politoad]

If something is B- or higher on the viability list, you can't just say "they're too rare to matter". A B- rank is a high enough rank to consider something a threat and should still be taken account when talking about threats. CroCune, Quagsire and Alomomola are all reasonable threats that should not just be brushed off.

I never said they were too rare to matter, I just said they were uncommon.

e; woops

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

I never said they were too rare to matter, I just said they were uncommon.

Hippowdon is just OHKOed by Hydro Pump, Azumarill is hit by Gunk Shot, Quagsire and Alomomola are pretty uncommon so imo you can't count them.

 

[Thunderorange]

Well ferrothorn can't exactly do anything to sableye anyways, since it can't set up hazards due to magic bounce, and power whip is pitifully weak. I guess you could say that if sableye is weakened, it could be "revenge killed" (lololol the thought of ferrothorn revenge killing something) by ferrothorn. I guess I don't see ferro tanking a hit with 4 extra EVs in something. But the situation that sableye is weakened to the point that non invested power whip can KO it is pretty rare, so yeah, there's kind of a trade off.

Is worry seed reflected by magic bounce? If not then worry seed ferrothorn with the spread suggested can leech seed and set up hazards vs mega eye. Also ferrothorn gets acid spray (specs ferro is looking better and better lol).

Note: if it does I get the credit in the ORAS creative sets thread :}

 

[AM]

Is worry seed reflected by magic bounce? If not then worry seed ferrothorn with the spread suggested can leech seed and set up hazards vs mega eye. Also ferrothorn gets acid spray (specs ferro is looking better and better lol).

Note: if it does I get the credit in the ORAS creative sets thread :}

It's bounced back and wouldn't even matter. It would just switch out and there goes the strategy entirely for the trade off of losing something that would be overall more beneficial.

Also physically oriented sets on Greninja are becoming a thing. If anything I would mention to not use Power up Punch cause that is garbage either way no matter how you put it.

 

[p2]

Don't use this

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Gyro Ball / Volt Switch

Use this

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Sassy / Relaxed Nature
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball / Power Whip
- Power Whip / Protect / Thunder Wave

Ferrothorn is a better mixed tank than Forretress, as it offers better special bulk, but does have lower physical bulk but it's a very small difference. Also it has Iron Barbs which gives physical attackers hell, especially if they lack recovery.
The only thing going for Forretress is Rapid Spin, Volt Switch and Toxic Spikes. Forretress isn't a great spinner anymore since it's so easy to set up on, especially with a Substitute to bypass Toxic and plenty of better alternatives are available, such as Starmie or Excadrill. Slow Volt Switches are really good though, but that alone doesn't warrant use of Forretress imo
Toxic Spikes aren't that viable tbh and shouldn't be used over Spikes or SR.
Ferrothorn is nowhere near as passive as Forretress and can easily dent and break Substitutes of neutral/SE threats with Power Whip or Gyro Ball. It also has access to Thunder Wave, which can shut down setup sweepers with ease. Leech Seed is also a good support move for wearing down opponents and can make Ferrothorn difficult to take down with unboosted or neutral moves

 

[Kurona]

Don't use this

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Gyro Ball / Volt Switch

Use this

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Sassy / Relaxed Nature
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball / Power Whip
- Power Whip / Protect / Thunder Wave

Ferrothorn is a better mixed tank than Forretress, as it offers better special bulk, but does have lower physical bulk but it's a very small difference. Also it has Iron Barbs which gives physical attackers hell, especially if they lack recovery.
The only thing going for Forretress is Rapid Spin, Volt Switch and Toxic Spikes. Forretress isn't a great spinner anymore since it's so easy to set up on, especially with a Substitute to bypass Toxic and plenty of better alternatives are available, such as Starmie or Excadrill. Slow Volt Switches are really good though, but that alone doesn't warrant use of Forretress imo
Toxic Spikes aren't that viable tbh and shouldn't be used over Spikes or SR.

While I do appreciate any post here telling people that Forretress isn't god anymore, there's a lot more things you could mention, key among them being Forretress is extremely passive and doesn't really do anything besides set and remove hazards -- meanwhile, Ferro has offensive presence and can really mess with opponents by T-waving or Leech Seeding.

 

[p2]

While I do appreciate any post here telling people that Forretress isn't god anymore, there's a lot more things you could mention, key among them being Forretress is extremely passive and doesn't really do anything besides set and remove hazards -- meanwhile, Ferro has offensive presence and can really mess with opponents by T-waving or Leech Seeding.

Yeah, I'll edit that in at some point soon

 

[zachmac]

Don't use this

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Gyro Ball / Volt Switch

Use this

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Sassy / Relaxed Nature
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball / Power Whip
- Power Whip / Protect / Thunder Wave

Ferrothorn is a better mixed tank than Forretress, as it offers better special bulk, but does have lower physical bulk but it's a very small difference. Also it has Iron Barbs which gives physical attackers hell, especially if they lack recovery.
The only thing going for Forretress is Rapid Spin, Volt Switch and Toxic Spikes. Forretress isn't a great spinner anymore since it's so easy to set up on, especially with a Substitute to bypass Toxic and plenty of better alternatives are available, such as Starmie or Excadrill. Slow Volt Switches are really good though, but that alone doesn't warrant use of Forretress imo
Toxic Spikes aren't that viable tbh and shouldn't be used over Spikes or SR.
Ferrothorn is nowhere near as passive as Forretress and can easily dent and break Substitutes of neutral/SE threats with Power Whip or Gyro Ball. It also has access to Thunder Wave, which can shut down setup sweepers with ease. Leech Seed is also a good support move for wearing down opponents and can make Ferrothorn difficult to take down with unboosted or neutral moves

As a tank, Ferrothorn far outclasses Forretress, yes. But as far as Volt Turn support, Forretress might sometimes win simply as a form of hazard control that you can send in without losing offensive momentum. A slow Volt Switch means you can safely get any of your offensive VoltTurners in and rapid spin may arguably be even better then defog, as Bisharps are more common than ghost these days.

If anything, I'd say Defog Mega Scizor is what outclasses it. I'm actually using a Forretress in a VoltTurn team right now, but only because my mega slot is already taken. Even then, I've been considering swapping it out for a regular Scizor with defog because Bullet Punch is just that useful.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

As a tank, Ferrothorn far outclasses Forretress, yes. But as far as Volt Turn support, Forretress might sometimes win simply as a form of hazard control that you can send in without losing offensive momentum. A slow Volt Switch means you can safely get any of your offensive VoltTurners in and rapid spin may arguably be even better then defog, as Bisharps are more common than ghost these days.

If anything, I'd say Defog Mega Scizor is what outclasses it. I'm actually using a Forretress in a VoltTurn team right now, but only because my mega slot is already taken. Even then, I've been considering swapping it out for a regular Scizor with defog because Bullet Punch is just that useful.

Honestly, Forretress is sort of weird since it can Volt Switch, Spin and set Rocks. While there is nothing in OU or even UU that can do all three, it's almost always detrimental to stack all 3 into one set, especially when Volt Switch hits like a wet paper bag. You could probably argue that just about any Spinner, Defogger, or Rocks setter outclasses it simply because the consolidation of hazard clearing and hazard setting almost always results in something far too passive to work in OU.

 

[Breadley]

Sturdy's nice too, I guess, but Iron Barbs is better in most situations. It's not like either of them wants to take a Fire Blast. :P