Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[MANNAT]

Dude, you've got it wrong. If you actually bothered to read my post, I was saying that obviously you would use mega hera as a wallbreaker. Use mega swampert as a cleaner. Don't try to compare mega swampert to mega heracross, because they are completely different. Of course mega heracross is a better wallbreaker, it has a much higher attack stat. But guess what, mega swampert is a better cleaner because of swift swim and reliable move accuracy.

rock blast's 90% accuracy isn't exactly bad.

 

[firehusky]

rock blast's 90% accuracy isn't exactly bad.

Rock blast isn't exactly the move that you clean teams with. Neither is close combat, because dropping your defense makes you lose bulk and you're weaker to priority. This makes pin missile your only good cleaning tool, and tbh, waterfall and earthquake are just much more reliable and have perfect accuracy, meaning you won't have to worry about things even when your opponent is down to his last pokemon.

 

[jtal2000]

I have been watching this MSwampert argument with a keen eye. IT SHOULD NOT DROP. It may not be worth A- (I think it might be but I will save that). However, downplaying an electric immunity on a rain team is really bad for ranking purposes. A twave can only para 1 of your SSers, but that (physical if kabutops special if kingdra) is now crippled! Thus a poke that can (potentially) live one of these (the non paralyzed one) can beat it. While other rain Megas can be really good, Swampert has a good niche and a strong one. It can't 2HKO rotom wash? Get rid of it first! That's how kabutops works too! We are saying why have swampert when you can have kabutops? You can run them together! Swampert may not be the best mega for rain but it can do really well against many threats, and has access to ice punch to deal with the grass types that threaten it. Not sure if it deserves A-, but it should not drop lower than B+ IMO. If you can prove why other than "oh kabutops is better" or "takes a turn to get SS" please post it. Swampert's bulk makes the latter not as bad and both can be used together (so no MLatios like discussion)

 

[MANNAT]

Rock blast isn't exactly the move that you clean teams with. Neither is close combat, because dropping your defense makes you lose bulk and you're weaker to priority. This makes pin missile your only good cleaning tool, and tbh, waterfall and earthquake are just much more reliable and have perfect accuracy, meaning you won't have to worry about things even when your opponent is down to his last pokemon.

Pin missle has 95% accuracy, so it only misses about one out of every 20 uses.

 

[theV8man]

Why are people arguing Mega Heracross's cleaning capabilities...

Look, Mega Swampert has a really cool niche. It's a water sweeper that doesn't care about Prankster T-wave, how nice! However, we have to keep in mind that when you're nominating it for A-, you're advocating it to be at the same rank as Pokemon that are straight up better/more useful like Terrakion and Magnezone, and let's not forget Politoed who should definitely be ranked above the rain sweepers for making the playstyle possible. Next, the problem with nominating it for B+ is that that's where Kingdra and Kabutops reside. We can't deny that those rain sweepers are straight up better, and of course don't carry the mega opportunity cost. And let's not forget that we can just use Seismitoad, or, something else that can deal with Thundurus-I on the team. For those saying that Mega Swampert's lower power isn't an issue cause teammates, the non-mega water sweepers I just mentioned are extremely difficult to wall, they can only be stopped by certain select mons with the perfect typing combo or obscene special bulk. Meanwhile we have Swampert who will get stalled out by anything with high defense and reliable recovery. The combination of all of this leads me to say that Mega Swampert should be B at the very most.

 

[Punchshroom]

I mean, if you're going to argue that using Mega Swampert means that you lose the opportunity of using other Megas and the issue that its current roles can be replicated by other Pokemon, may I argue that for example, people complaining about not being able to use Mega Heracross for wallbreaking since they use Swampert as their Mega can simply resort to, idk, SD Toxic Orb Breloom or something? If you're going to bring up 'replicated roles' or 'opportunity cost', do realize this does not apply to Mega Swampert alone; even Mega Heracross on Rain teams can suffer from this.

 

[koista12]

I feel like B or B+ appropriate for Mega Swampert. It is really good for rain teams, especially with that nice bulk and ability to break through ferrothorn, but it is slightly weak. The Mega slot argument is valid, as Mega Heracross, Mega Ampharos, and Mega Manectric are all viable on rain. Its not really at the level of magnezone or terrakion IMO.

 

[AM]

Why are people arguing Mega Heracross's cleaning capabilities...

Look, Mega Swampert has a really cool niche. It's a water sweeper that doesn't care about Prankster T-wave, how nice! However, we have to keep in mind that when you're nominating it for A-, you're advocating it to be at the same rank as Pokemon that are straight up better/more useful like Terrakion and Magnezone, and let's not forget Politoed who should definitely be ranked above the rain sweepers for making the playstyle possible. Next, the problem with nominating it for B+ is that that's where Kingdra and Kabutops reside. We can't deny that those rain sweepers are straight up better, and of course don't carry the mega opportunity cost. And let's not forget that we can just use Seismitoad, or, something else that can deal with Thundurus-I on the team. For those saying that Mega Swampert's lower power isn't an issue cause teammates, the non-mega water sweepers I just mentioned are extremely difficult to wall, they can only be stopped by certain select mons with the perfect typing combo or obscene special bulk. Meanwhile we have Swampert who will get stalled out by anything with high defense and reliable recovery. The combination of all of this leads me to say that Mega Swampert should be B at the very most.

Kabutops and Kingdra are subjectively superior to M-Swampert, not objectively as people keep trying to argue that situational opinions as some sort of concrete fact. Both have their fair share of pros and cons but a big reason you would see M-Swampert lower is simply for just being a mega which once again comes back to choosing over the handful of viable rain megas that can be used but provide other traits outside of usefulness in the playstyle.

Seismitoad is not a replacement for M-Swampert lol. They literally have the same typing and Swift Swim with the obvious of sort of blocking Thundurus but that's really it. It was pretty much established earlier the comparisons are so minimal when they provide completely different coverage in regards to specific threats in the meta.

 

[Srn]

Ok I've been reading some M-Swampert arguments so I'm going to just say my piece on this. Do note that I'm more inclined to see this at B than B+ now. Here are some things I've been reading that sort of made no sense or I feel needs to be addressed.

I think people are really downplaying the electric immunity thing with M-Swampert. Rain always had to contend with having mandatory electric resists / immunities and the fact Thundurus is cheesing its way through matches just by using paralysis is definitely something that can't be ignored, even more so with Swift Swim users which the last thing they want is to be paralyzed. This is important because Thundurus is on a majority of very strong offensive teams and to a lesser extent Klefki. M-Swampert bypasses the issue of Prankster Twave for rain and as such is one of the most annoying things offense has to deal with, which in most cases can't even afford to reliably switch in on it without taking some damage. Rain has for the most part always been a burden to hyper offensive and offensive builds in general and M-Swampert stopping stuff like the mentioned threats just complicates the issue even more so.

rain has always had to contend with requiring an electric resist, yes, but its not as if mega swampert is the first coming of christ to rain teams in this regard lmao. Electric immunities like mega manectric, av raikou, seismitoad, hell i've even seen mamo on a rain team before. If cockblocking thundy is whats most important here, mega swampert is and should not be your first choice.

Yeah when you use the argument of M-Swampert being walled by Rotom-W of course it's going to look pretty on your end. I don't know why this is being considered an argument that it's bad when you will more than like have a secondary swift swim sweeper, usually Kingdra, along with secondary answers to its issues such as Healing Wish Latias to handle this and whatever else M-Swampert has troubles with. Also, M-Swampert isn't a wallbreaker. It's more along the lines of a heavy hitter, who has the bulk, typing, and immunities to accomplish this feat of cleaning and revenge killing under rain. Also since people are discussing it up above Kabutops is frail as hell lol. It literally needs to net the KO or potentially fall victim to its opponent while M-Swampert has the luxury of taking hits and netting the KOs regardless if they're OHKO or 2HKO.

But why would you waste your mega slot just tacking on ANOTHER mon that's bullied by rotom-w on your rain team (politoed is one automatically) and get your latias worn down for no good reason when you could just save your mega slot AND 2hko rotom-w with kabu??
Its "bulk" (which is wasted trying to mevo), typing (no super relevant priority resists rain wants), and immunities (who gives a fuck when you're faster and kill) do absolutely nothing for mega swampert; kabu is simply stronger, faster, has priority, and can boost. Its far more effective at cleaning in any and every regard. May not be as bulky but atleast is has a super nice flying resist.
Mega swampert is not going to have any kind of so called "luxury" with its wasted bulk when it has to take hits to even get its ability up, and even then its outsped by scarf lati and scarf keld under rain. If you REALLY needed it, kabu could go jolly and dump some extra evs into hp to outsped scarf lati, but 252 jolly swampert under the rain STILL does not outpace scarf lati.

The speed argument is an exaggeration honestly and by speed I'm talking about pre-mega. I didn't know that it was some sort of law that goes Politoed Turn 1 Swampert Turn 2 and then 100% of the time Swampert is outsped. You would obviously design the team to give yourself these opportunities instead of looking at it in a vacuum and assume M-Swampert is just playing by itself. The speed argument more or less has to do with a weakened Swampert, if it's at full health and it switched on something threaten by it, that's a free turn for M-Swampert and there goes the speed argument. I sort of get the speed argument with something like Diancie for example but you guys are implying it's the slowest thing on the planet like M-Camerupt and supposably this is so detrimental that apparently it's of equal value to Doublade in viability, judging from some B- noms I saw on it emphasizing this point.

Its not an exaggeration at all lol, against offensive teams (where you're supposed to excel) you are pretty much outsped by everything, and are forced to take a hit to even get your ability up. Even against teams where you have the luxury to mevo safely cuz ur faster, those teams are probably bulky enough that mega swamperts offensive "presence" has no effect in comparison to kabu/kingdra/omastar in the first place; if it did it'd be less than any other mega you could use on rain.
Besides, why should you need to exclusively switch into a pokemon which is slower than you AND that you can OHKO to safely mevo against when kabu can just kill what you're in against anyways lol seems like a bitch to go through.

The viability is based on how it functions as a whole not just in rain

How it functions is LIMITED TO RAIN. In a vacuum mega swampert is better in rain than other megas are, objectively speaking, but when you factor in that there are already far better swift swimmers existing anyways, and the fact the the roles other megas fill in are far more useful to the archetype as a whole, you kinda get the big picture and understand mega swampert sucks.

"If it was purely shit in rain it more than likely would've been ranked lower initially but it's not."

Well new toy syndrome put it in B so now that that's gone, we use our judgement and move it lower, that's what this thread is for ^_^

"There's obviously good enough pros to justify its use on rain teams where one would want emphasis on the positive for their team while making up for the negatives."

Why are you using initial (and uninformed at the time) rankings to defend your argument? We're here to argue if its positives are really worth all the negatives, stick to that.

Seismitoad is not a replacement for M-Swampert lol. They literally have the same typing and Swift Swim with the obvious of sort of blocking Thundurus but that's really it. It was pretty much established earlier the comparisons are so minimal when they provide completely different coverage in regards to specific threats in the meta.

Uh hydro/epower/focus blast and waterfall/eq/superpower is not "completely different coverage, its the exact fucking same coverage and the only difference is accuracy and physical/special. Not to mention superpower drops are extremely annoying for a swift swimmer.

I mean, if you're going to argue that using Mega Swampert means that you lose the opportunity of using other Megas and the issue that its current roles can be replicated by other Pokemon, may I argue that for example, people complaining about not being able to use Mega Heracross for wallbreaking since they use Swampert as their Mega can simply resort to, idk, SD Toxic Orb Breloom or something? If you're going to bring up 'replicated roles' or 'opportunity cost', do realize this does not apply to Mega Swampert alone; even Mega Heracross on Rain teams can suffer from this.

Here's the difference: Heracross (the mega) is better than SD toxic orb breloom
Manectric (the mega) is better than av raikou
Swampert (the mega) is worse than kabu.
You're just wasting your mega slot :/

 

[DankSwank]

Honestly, Chansey is really underrated. It's defenses are great and its knowledge of support moves is amazing to assist any team, especially with wish support that helps to ease pressure off switchins. As well, Counter Chansey is great at surprising opponents and can nab kills very easily.

 

[AM]

rain has always had to contend with requiring an electric resist, yes, but its not as if mega swampert is the first coming of christ to rain teams in this regard lmao. Electric immunities like mega manectric, av raikou, seismitoad, hell i've even seen mamo on a rain team before. If cockblocking thundy is whats most important here, mega swampert is and should not be your first choice.


But why would you waste your mega slot just tacking on ANOTHER mon that's bullied by rotom-w on your rain team (politoed is one automatically) and get your latias worn down for no good reason when you could just save your mega slot AND 2hko rotom-w with kabu??
Its "bulk" (which is wasted trying to mevo), typing (no super relevant priority resists rain wants), and immunities (who gives a fuck when you're faster and kill) do absolutely nothing for mega swampert; kabu is simply stronger, faster, has priority, and can boost. Its far more effective at cleaning in any and every regard.
Mega swampert is not going to have any kind of so called "luxury" with its wasted bulk when it has to take hits to even get its ability up, and even then its outsped by scarf lati and scarf keld under rain. If you REALLY needed it, kabu could go jolly and dump some extra evs into hp to outsped scarf lati, but 252 jolly swampert under the rain STILL does not outpace scarf lati.


Its not an exaggeration at all lol, against offensive teams (where you're supposed to excel) you are pretty much outsped by everything, and are forced to take a hit to even get your ability up. Even against teams where you have the luxury to mevo safely cuz ur faster, those teams are probably bulky enough that mega swamperts offensive "presence" has no effect in comparison to kabu/kingdra/omaster in the first place; if it did it'd be less than any other mega you could use on rain.
Besides, why should you need to exclusively switch into a pokemon which is slower than you AND that you can OHKO to safely mevo against when kabu can just kill what you're in against anyways lol seems like a bitch to go through.


How it functions is LIMITED TO RAIN. In a vacuum mega swampert is better in rain than other megas are, objectively speaking, but when you factor in that there are already far better swift swimmers existing anyways, and the fact the the roles other megas fill in are far more useful to the archetype as a whole, you kinda get the big picture and understand mega swampert sucks.


Well new toy syndrome put it in B so now that that's gone, we use our judgement and move it lower, that's what this thread is for ^_^

Why are you using initial (and uninformed at the time) rankings to defend your argument? We're here to argue if its positives are really worth all the negatives, stick to that.



Here's the difference: Heracross (the mega) is better than SD toxic orb breloom
Manectric (the mega) is better than av raikou
Swampert (the mega) is worse than kabu.
You're just wasting your mega slot :/

Didn't I just agree it should be lower for like every con you just stated >_>? I still stand by the fact that a lot of these points were exaggerated when each aspect was represented in a singular form instead of as a whole where you were the only person so far that summed it up well without the fluff factor. Can't really talk on subjective arguments cause we'll be here all day where in the end we'll agree to disagree. Your experience with M-swampert is obviously vastly different than mine so I can't really speak on your emphasis of the negatives when I've seen them represented vaguely. Anyways I agree with a drop but not lower than B.

 

[pika pal]

Here's the thing that has been on my mind for a lot of the Mega Swampert discussion: People keep noting you could use Mega Heracross for a Wallbreaker and have a non-Mega Swift Swimmer. My query is, how necessary is that level of power? Mega Heracross hits obscenely hard, certainly harder than Swampert ever could, but is there a significant NEED to hit with that level of power considering Rain is a heavily offensive playstyle already? Looking over the viability rankings, the following are Pokemon that pop out as defensive/bulky threats to remove before attempting a sweep.

- Slowbro (Normal or Mega)
- Ferrothorn
- Rotom-W
- Celebi
- Chesnaught
- Mega Venusaur

Looking at all these threats, they're not quite impossible to handle with other Wallbreakers, like Keldeo, SD Breloom, (if we look in lower ranks) Omastar, or even Crawdaunt. Heck, some of them can be managed without a dedicated Wallbreaker, but rather a particular SS set.

(Going to assume no boosts on Crawdaunt, but Breloom can have it for a Poison Heal set as Punchshroom offered)

Hide

Slowbro
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 292-344 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (2HKO even after the drop. Point here mainly that Slowbro isn't that easy to break, but is it worth your Mega Slot when one of your Swimmers can do it anyway?)
+2 252+ Atk Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 252-306 (63.9 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 182-218 (46.1 - 55.3%) -- 65.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro in Rain: 243-286 (61.6 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ferrothorn
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 192-229 (54.5 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Kabutops can handle it anyway if needed)
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 192-229 (54.5 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 222-262 (63 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 278-330 (78.9 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 153-180 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 194-230 (55.1 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 155-183 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Rotom-W
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 231-273 (75.9 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W in Rain: 189-223 (62.1 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 205-242 (67.4 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W in Rain: 156-185 (51.3 - 60.8%) -- 92.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Neither move allows switch-in)
252+ Atk Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W in Rain: 191-225 (62.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 188-222 (61.8 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Celebi
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
64 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 173-204 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 572-676 (141.5 - 167.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 218-258 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Chesnaught
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 308-364 (81 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught in Rain: 254-299 (66.8 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 226-268 (59.4 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 374-440 (98.4 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught in Rain: 256-302 (67.3 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Venusaur
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 208-246 (57.9 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
64 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Outrage vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 144-172 (40.1 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Kingdra wins with a combo of its Dragon Moves)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur in Rain: 171-202 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- 85.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur in Rain: 174-204 (48.4 - 56.8%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur in Rain: 185-218 (51.5 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Crawdaunt actually does outspeed Venusaur with any less than 48 EVs, so a 2HKO works well enough)

Rain teams have options for Wallbreakers that suffice perfectly well without using their Mega slot. And I don't advocate using Swampert OVER Kabutops, but alongside him. Kabutops already puts so much pressure on the opponent, imagine if they had to deal with 2 of him. On Stall, I can't use 2 Mega Sableyes; on Sand, I can't use 2 Excadrills, but Swampert essentially means at the cost of the Mega slot, I get the closest thing I can to a duplicate of (debatably) the best Swift Swimmer. Additionally, Swampert can deal with a couple things Kabutops can't, at least enough to put them in range for its cleaning

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric in Rain: 204-242 (72.5 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 318-374 (121.8 - 143.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-1 252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 320-378 (113.8 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Mega Swampert: 62-74 (16.9 - 20.2%) -- possible 5HKO

If Thundurus doesn't have Grass Knot, he loses even without Rain
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Mega Swampert: 153-181 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 213-252 (71.2 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Meanwhile with Kabutops beating Rotom-W, you've got a Swift Swimmer core with a Thunder Wave immunity and still reliably able to beat OU's 3 most relevant Electric types.

Here's the difference: Heracross (the mega) is better than SD toxic orb breloom
Manectric (the mega) is better than av raikou
Swampert (the mega) is worse than kabu.
You're just wasting your mega slot :/

As a counter argument though
Rain doesn't tend to need more than one Wallbreaker
Rain doesn't tend to need more than one Volt Switcher
Rain almost always appreciates another Swift Swimmer

In light of the arguments, I can see why some might want Swampert to drop, but IF he drops, I say no lower than B. The problem I have is that some of the drop arguments, good or bad, seem to act like Swampert costs the team both the Mega Slot AND Kabutops in the comparisons. Gen 4, Double Dragon Cores thrived because the Dragons were similar, and most of their counters/answers couldn't handle the pressure of dealing with a threat twice, and having a second dosage also meant the first of the two could be played more recklessly as long as the checks/counters were weakened enough for the second. Considering more than half the above noted threats lack reliable recovery (Not sure how many Celebi carry Synthesis, and for it or Venu, it's weakened in Rain), such a strategy is decently viable, since Rain is already a very offensive playstyle by nature.

 

[firehusky]

I definitely agree that swampert is a little bit overrated as a rain mega. I agree it should drop to B.
Pros and Cons of Swampert on a rain team

Pros:
Volt switch absorber / electric immunity
Good bulk, fantastic attack
Great cleaner and forms good partners with other SSers

Cons:
Uses up valuable mega slot (opportunity cost)
Needs to take a turn to mega evolve before gaining Swift Swim
Good bulk is not that good once you realize you must take a few hits before you can retaliate back
Damage output lower than Kabutops (but you can obviously use both on the same team)

As you can see, the cons generally outweigh the pros, so I believe swampert should either stay, or drop to B, but no further.

 

[MilkyWay]

Most of what I wanted to say in support or mega swampert has already been said, but I'd just like to add a few things that I havent seen mentioned. Mega Swampert has two key advantages over Kabutops that havent been talked about yet. The first is lack of life orb recoil. I used Kabutops a lot in xy and honestly I used mystic water over life orb (now im not gonna go on and post mystic water calcs like some guy did with something a few pages back because i understand most people here see life orb as a superior item). The reasoning behind this is because kabutops is sort of frail and extremely vulnerable to priority. I always hated getting to a low health value and have my opponent switch around until lo recoil kills kabutops. Because kabutops cant take too many hits, my usual plan was to set up swords dance and go for the sweep. Not only did the lack of life orb recoil allow me to set up, take a hit, and keep going, but I didnt miss too many imporant kos with stone edge either after the swords dance. The second thing nobody has mentioned is the sucky accuracy of stone edge. Hitting 80% of the time is only 10% better than focus blast, therefore, if you used both moves 10 times you would only expect stone edge to hit one more time than focus blast. I'm sure anybody who has ever used kabutops will have lost plenty of games due stone edges accuracy because I can certainly say so myself.

Anyways tagging Doughboy just because I know he recently peaked number 1 with Mega Swampert and i'd be interested in what he has to say on the matter.

 

[jtal2000]

Oh just another point: using MSwampert doesn't mean you can't use a heracross, guts flame orb breaks walls just as hard if you are worried about stall. It may not be fantastic but you can run a wallbreakers with mega swampert. Again not that it should be run but it can be... Also this soaks up the will o from rotom if you want to predict and run band/LO

 

[Pent]

Don't be mad at me for this, but I think Azumarill should be simply an A.
Azumarill was mainly used to counter/check MegazardX, and since he is mainly outclassed by other megas, I feel Azumarill isn't as good as it used to be.
Greninja getting Gunk Shot was a swift kick in the paw for Azumarill, and it only can Aqua Jet Lando-T and Talonflame, which doesn't even kill a defensive Landorus-Therian.
Here are some calcs for it.


-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 122-146 (31.9 - 38.2%) -- 2.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even Waterfall can't OHKO.


-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 246-290 (64.3 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Since Celebi, Sceptile, Breloom, and Rotom-Wash can either kill it or cripple it, I feel it should be an A.

Feel free to discuss, but this is solely opinion.

 

[Hootie]

Don't be mad at me for this, but I think Azumarill should be simply an A.
Azumarill was mainly used to counter/check MegazardX, and since he is mainly outclassed by other megas, I feel Azumarill isn't as good as it used to be.
Greninja getting Gunk Shot was a swift kick in the paw for Azumarill, and it only can Aqua Jet Lando-T and Talonflame, which doesn't even kill a defensive Landorus-Therian.
Here are some calcs for it.


-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 122-146 (31.9 - 38.2%) -- 2.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even Waterfall can't OHKO.


-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 246-290 (64.3 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Since Celebi, Sceptile, Breloom, and Rotom-Wash can either kill it or cripple it, I feel it should be an A.

Feel free to discuss, but this is solely opinion.

I would save that argument for when we are talking about A rank.

 

[Flamebot]

I would save that argument for when we are talking about A rank.

I could be wrong but didn't alexwolf say we could discuss things higher than B+ a few pages back?

 

[Hellochi]

To talk about something that is not mega pert i think conkeldurr should definetly move up to B rank or even B+

Bad things about conkeldurr
-out classed by other fighting types (mainly mega hera and mega gallade)
-Pretty slow and doesnt hit as hard as other fighting types.
-Only has one (viable) moveset
-Probably more i cant think of them though

Good things about conkeldurr
-Has recovery, and paired with AV its pretty good
-Pretty bulky with AV and some spdef investment
-Serves as a greninja check,and can take a hit if needed
-Doesn't use a mega slot
-Burn helps it

 

[boxofkangaroos]

out classed by other fighting types (mainly mega hera and mega gallade)

Conkeldurr can't really be compared to Mega Gallade. Conkeldurr is a bulky, slow wallbreaker, while Mega Gallade is a fast setup sweeper. Just because they're both Fighting-type that doesn't mean one outclasses another.

 

[Hellochi]

Conkeldurr can't really be compared to Mega Gallade. Conkeldurr is a bulky, slow wallbreaker, while Mega Gallade is a fast setup sweeper. Just because they're both Fighting-type that doesn't mean one outclasses another.

Yea i suppose that wasnt the best example :/

 

[McBeengs]

Yea i suppose that wasnt the best example :/

Also, why is "Burn helps it" on the bad list? It shouldn't be on good things?

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Some more stuff on Swampert oh no the horror

Kabutops is not better than Mega Swampert, I'd say they're roughly equal. Kabutops having more power and a boosting move (that it rarely is able to use in the first place) and resisting Talonflame's Brave Bird, and Swampert with a lot of bulk and being able to check electrics.

Kingdra is the best rain sweeper. That's my own opinion, but Specs Kingdra is imo the most consistent, easy to use and brutally effective Swift Swimmer available.

Kabutops is not better than Swampert, but does not take a mega slot. Kingdra is straight up better, you can contest that a little but Kingdra hits way harder (like 40% difference or something silly,) and while Swampet is bulkier, Kingdra is faster and doesn't have to take as many hits in the first place. It gets SS on turn one and outspeeds scarfed base 110's.

Being in the same rank as a (very rough) equivalent with lower opportunity cost and a rain sweeper that's simply better, doesn't seem right to me. The only reason I could see it remaining in B+ is because imo Swampert+Kingdra is better than Kabutops+Kingdra, but again it comes at the cost of not using several megas that have excellent utility for Rain teams. Having a Thundy check is also something that doesn't need to be accomplished with a mega slot, and you can even use Altaria (or lots of stuff) with heal bell cuz Thundy sacrifices itself 75% of the time to just paralyze, not KO, King/Kabu.

I know Swampert's role does not entirely overlap with King/Kabu's, but King/Kabu are much more immediate picks for a Rain team than Swampert; Swampert only fits on some Rain teams, virtually every team is going to have one or both of Kingdra and Kabutops. Swampert is good, but it's not as viable as King/Kabu; it shouldn't be in the same rank as them, and definitely not higher.

EDIT: By the way, just some food for though, has anyone tried the old CursePert set? No Rain. Just a random idea, but it could be worth looking in to.

 

[Hootie]

Some more stuff on Swampert oh no the horror

Kabutops is not better than Mega Swampert, I'd say they're roughly equal. Kabutops having more power and a boosting move (that it rarely is able to use in the first place) and resisting Talonflame's Brave Bird, and Swampert with a lot of bulk and being able to check electrics.

Kingdra is the best rain sweeper. That's my own opinion, but Specs Kingdra is imo the most consistent, easy to use and brutally effective Swift Swimmer available.

Kabutops is not better than Swampert, but does not take a mega slot. Kingdra is straight up better, you can contest that a little but Kingdra hits way harder (like 40% difference or something silly,) and while Swampet is bulkier, Kingdra is faster and doesn't have to take as many hits in the first place. It gets SS on turn one and outspeeds scarfed base 110's.

Being in the same rank as a (very rough) equivalent with lower opportunity cost and a rain sweeper that's simply better, doesn't seem right to me. The only reason I could see it remaining in B+ is because imo Swampert+Kingdra is better than Kabutops+Kingdra, but again it comes at the cost of not using several megas that have excellent utility for Rain teams. Having a Thundy check is also something that doesn't need to be accomplished with a mega slot, and you can even use Altaria (or lots of stuff) with heal bell cuz Thundy sacrifices itself 75% of the time to just paralyze, not KO, King/Kabu.

I know Swampert's role does not entirely overlap with King/Kabu's, but King/Kabu are much more immediate picks for a Rain team than Swampert; Swampert only fits on some Rain teams, virtually every team is going to have one or both of Kingdra and Kabutops. Swampert is good, but it's not as viable as King/Kabu; it shouldn't be in the same rank as them, and definitely not higher.

EDIT: By the way, just some food for though, has anyone tried the old CursePert set? No Rain. Just a random idea, but it could be worth looking in to.

Grass-types = RIP CursePert. I don't even have to use it to know that really. Swift-swim sweeper should be its only set which is more of the reason why it shouldn't move up. Either B or B+ is fine for it, but nothing lower than that.

 

[Alfalfa]

Conkeldurr can't really be compared to Mega Gallade. Conkeldurr is a bulky, slow wallbreaker, while Mega Gallade is a fast setup sweeper. Just because they're both Fighting-type that doesn't mean one outclasses another.

Conkeldurr is not an effective wallbreaker, because it is not that difficult at all to wall. It is more of a bulky attacker who can take hits and hit back.