I could have sworn we don't take DexNav moves (with the exception of elemental fang Poochyena the game first lets you try to catch) or hidden abilities into account. I thought that was established in the opening posts of this thread...
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ORAS In-game Tier List - Read Post #324
- Thread starter Celever
- Start date
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the second post is reserved for dexnav moves. If you happen to find one, what tier the mon goes into if there's a tier change at all
Yeah, DexNav isn't being taken into account for the main tier list. There's just going to be a separate list soon detailing the changes in tier placement if you happen to find a Pokémon with said move.
Some mons like Ralts really arent affected by the DexNav moves while some moms like Shroomish have multiple egg moves that are good (Seed Bomb and Bullet Seed).
This isnt a finished list; however, these Pokemon with selected moves listed would qualify to have a tier change if they existed:
- Zubat (Brave Bird) B -> A
- Shroomish (Seed Bomb / Bullet Seed) B -> A
- Lotad (Giga Drain) No change
- Poochyena (Crunch) C -> B
- Surskit (Hydro Pump) No change (possibly)
- Seedot (Giga Drain / Seed Bomb) B Tier.
- Marill (Aqua Jet) No change
- Tailow (Brave Bird) A -> S
- Zangoose (Close Combat) A -> S
- Slakoth* C for Slaking
- Whismur (Hammer Arm / Extrasensory?) More solidly in A.
- Makuhita (Cross Chop / Revenge) A (no real tier change IMO)
- Goldeen (Aqua Tail) Changed to C/B.
- Geodude (Hammer Arm) - No real change IMO.
- Nosepass (Magnitude / Rollout) - No change maybe C?
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* Denotes many moves (Body Slam, Slash, Hammer Arm, Crush Claw).
Ill stop there for now. I will be continuing ny playthrough soon to put Treecko to rest. Stay tuned.
This isnt a finished list; however, these Pokemon with selected moves listed would qualify to have a tier change if they existed:
- Zubat (Brave Bird) B -> A
- Shroomish (Seed Bomb / Bullet Seed) B -> A
- Lotad (Giga Drain) No change
- Poochyena (Crunch) C -> B
- Surskit (Hydro Pump) No change (possibly)
- Seedot (Giga Drain / Seed Bomb) B Tier.
- Marill (Aqua Jet) No change
- Tailow (Brave Bird) A -> S
- Zangoose (Close Combat) A -> S
- Slakoth* C for Slaking
- Whismur (Hammer Arm / Extrasensory?) More solidly in A.
- Makuhita (Cross Chop / Revenge) A (no real tier change IMO)
- Goldeen (Aqua Tail) Changed to C/B.
- Geodude (Hammer Arm) - No real change IMO.
- Nosepass (Magnitude / Rollout) - No change maybe C?
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* Denotes many moves (Body Slam, Slash, Hammer Arm, Crush Claw).
Ill stop there for now. I will be continuing ny playthrough soon to put Treecko to rest. Stay tuned.
@ The above
BB Zubat doesnt change anything except make the early game go a bit faster. Once it gets Acrobatics BB is almost worthless outside of sharp beak.
Swellow still doesn't hurt anything post midgame with BB (does <50% to Norman's Slaking).
Also BB recoil does force you to chug pots quite a bit so idk if you really want to deal with that.
BB Zubat doesnt change anything except make the early game go a bit faster. Once it gets Acrobatics BB is almost worthless outside of sharp beak.
Swellow still doesn't hurt anything post midgame with BB (does <50% to Norman's Slaking).
Also BB recoil does force you to chug pots quite a bit so idk if you really want to deal with that.
So I just finished the game, and even though I rotated through many different Pokemon, I used these ones the most and feel I can make accurate suggestions on where they belong.
Treecko A
While I feel that Grass STAB leaves much to be desired, it's actually a good one to have in Hoenn. While Treecko only has the type advantage against the first and last gyms (although Grass is actually super effective against BOTH of the Pokemon in the Psychic gym), his movepool makes up for the rest. He resists electric attacks and Low Sleep allows him to be useful against the 3rd and 4th gym. Really the only time you shouldn't use him is against Flannery and Winona. He's very useful against the numerous water-type trainers you have to face in the game, and his movepool helps him cover the rest (Rock Tomb can kind of cover your weaknesses till you find Rock Slide and Earthquake).
Overall I feel like Treecko is solid but comes short of S tier.
Tentacool B > A
I honestly feel like Tentacool deserves to be bumped up. Not only is he useful for HM's, he can use both attacking stats effectively and Water + Poison gives decent enough coverage. He gets easy access to powerful moves (Waterfall, Surf, Sludge Bomb, Dazzling Gleam, and later Ice Beam), and is found very early in the game. His early levels are made a little better with the fact that Acid + Water Pulse come pretty early on, and he will be facing a lot of Ground- and Fire-types a little after his capture, although it can still be a bit of a grind.
Electrike A
Fine where he is. Electric-types are always handy, and he gets access to Overheat early on to carry him until he gets Flamethrower.
Ralts I traded for a Dawn Stone and got Gallade right at level 20, so I can't comment because I'm assuming trades for stones aren't available.
Vulpix C
C is fine. It comes late in the game but by then it should nearly have Flamethrower + Extrasensory. You should already have the Fire Stone to get Ninetails. Shortly after you can get Calm Mind + Dark Pulse to round out your set.
Absol A
He comes a bit late in the game, but he comes powerful and doesn't require too much babying. Has a massive movepool to abuse. He's just a little too slow and frail to reach S tier in my opinion.
Treecko A
While I feel that Grass STAB leaves much to be desired, it's actually a good one to have in Hoenn. While Treecko only has the type advantage against the first and last gyms (although Grass is actually super effective against BOTH of the Pokemon in the Psychic gym), his movepool makes up for the rest. He resists electric attacks and Low Sleep allows him to be useful against the 3rd and 4th gym. Really the only time you shouldn't use him is against Flannery and Winona. He's very useful against the numerous water-type trainers you have to face in the game, and his movepool helps him cover the rest (Rock Tomb can kind of cover your weaknesses till you find Rock Slide and Earthquake).
Overall I feel like Treecko is solid but comes short of S tier.
Tentacool B > A
I honestly feel like Tentacool deserves to be bumped up. Not only is he useful for HM's, he can use both attacking stats effectively and Water + Poison gives decent enough coverage. He gets easy access to powerful moves (Waterfall, Surf, Sludge Bomb, Dazzling Gleam, and later Ice Beam), and is found very early in the game. His early levels are made a little better with the fact that Acid + Water Pulse come pretty early on, and he will be facing a lot of Ground- and Fire-types a little after his capture, although it can still be a bit of a grind.
Electrike A
Fine where he is. Electric-types are always handy, and he gets access to Overheat early on to carry him until he gets Flamethrower.
Ralts I traded for a Dawn Stone and got Gallade right at level 20, so I can't comment because I'm assuming trades for stones aren't available.
Vulpix C
C is fine. It comes late in the game but by then it should nearly have Flamethrower + Extrasensory. You should already have the Fire Stone to get Ninetails. Shortly after you can get Calm Mind + Dark Pulse to round out your set.
Absol A
He comes a bit late in the game, but he comes powerful and doesn't require too much babying. Has a massive movepool to abuse. He's just a little too slow and frail to reach S tier in my opinion.
Seeing as how we now have a Dexnav post, I can confirm Wake-up Slap on Shroomish, as I used one in my playthrough. 70 BP (And stab after 23) is nothing to sneeze at early game, especially if your Effect Spore happens to put the opponent to sleep. It takes the place of Absorb but Absorb is terrible anyway, so it's not much of a loss. Regardless, you get Mega Drain at 12 so if you're really hurting for Absorb it's only a few levels from being outclassed anyway.
Making the early game go a bit faster is still a significant step from going at a normal pace. Consider that Zubat can likely OHKO Pokemon like Machop (in comparison to the 2HKO on Wing Attack) and helps keep it a powerful force until STAB Acrobatics arrives. Acrobatics is pretty late in the game (about Winona or so unless you use a team of three).
Actually Swellow has access to Brave Bird once its evolved and has the Heart Scale; however, the change is earlygame when it's a Taillow. Since Tailow has a little more power than our friend Zubat here it actually OHKOes Brawly's Makuhita (assuming no real RNG screwing and the like).
The Potion chugging is a minor downfall, but if Zubat / Taillow failed to OHKO (which it can) sometimes they'll take damage anyway (or worse - status effects).
Can we talk about DexNav after we have sorted most of the other stuff out? I have a lot to say about certain DexNav mons, but do not want to divert the thread into that rabbit hole.
It would make sense to re-visit certain Pokemon for DexNav additions, AFTER we have already sorted out the main list. Hoenn does not have a huge amount of mons available (especially compared to XY). So let's concentrate on getting those sorted first.
Celever Can you get around to updating the OP with what we have done so far? I'm looking to start an AS game soon (tm) and want to pick some things which have not been looked at.
It would make sense to re-visit certain Pokemon for DexNav additions, AFTER we have already sorted out the main list. Hoenn does not have a huge amount of mons available (especially compared to XY). So let's concentrate on getting those sorted first.
Celever Can you get around to updating the OP with what we have done so far? I'm looking to start an AS game soon (tm) and want to pick some things which have not been looked at.
DHR-107 the OP is updated and has been for a while. There's just a long list of "more discussion needed" there. When my DS is fixed (which should come back today at the latest) I will work my way through some of the more interesting proposals on the list.
I'll check back when on a computer about whether we reached a consensus on Zubat or Mawile, as I do recall discussion on those two.
Just want to point out that even with Brave Bird, all Taillow does is beat Brawly and then be useless for the rest of the game outside of being a Fly slave (which does have its merits ofc). Its gym matchups are awful - loses to Roxanne, wattson, norman, winona (sorta), tate&liza, and probably wallace too. Does okay vs Flannery but torkoal will give issues. It'll probably die to any of the E4. Can't really see it beating Archie/Maxie either.
I can't see this being more useful than say... Mawile, who is currently put into C due to backtracking issues. At least Mawile has actual combat abilities which makes it pretty strong for Norman onwards. I think Taillow is B at best -with Brave Bird- due to how incredibly lackluster it is (C without).
I can't see this being more useful than say... Mawile, who is currently put into C due to backtracking issues. At least Mawile has actual combat abilities which makes it pretty strong for Norman onwards. I think Taillow is B at best -with Brave Bird- due to how incredibly lackluster it is (C without).
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Boomburst Taillow sweeps the early game and is still great late game, though struggles from being relatively frail (luckily it's so fast and learns quick Attack, so it will always get some damage in at least). Even with Swellow's higher Attack, unless you get a Guts boost Boomburst is still a more powerful attack than Fly. The only time I felt Swellow didn't pull its weight was during the Elite 4; it had no favorable type matchups there (except U-turn for Sidney). Up to the Elite 4, though, Boomburst Swellow was absolutely brutal and deserves an A or B ranking, and I lean towards A.
Please do this ._.
This is all great discussion to have AFTER we create the tier list itself. For now, finalising the list is imperative.
Is it possible to get Head Smash Aron from the DexNav? Because if so than that (should) catapult it to A rank.
I've finished one playthrough and started another one to test some more mons. I'll comment on the ones where I feel a statement is most important:
Slaking
The Slakoth period was bad. For some time, I did switch-grinding, then I turned on Exp Share for a little while because I was getting tired of it, only switching it in for battles that give a lot of exp like the double ones. There is no doubt that Slaking needs to be penalised for this period and its length.
As Vigoroth, this guy is quite comparable to starters' second tier forms in power except that he doesn't have a super-effective STAB. I ran Strength/Power-up Punch/Bulldoze/Shadow Claw (since I also used Mawile on the same run) on mine, and most of the time it was OHKOing things with SS-boosted Strength. Bulk Up is a choice but is obsolete when you can just get the same power boost with PuP while striking a weakness. Sometimes I gave it Rock Tomb and/or Low Sweep depending on the area I was in.
Though Vigoroth was more than good for the period he existed in, I believe he doesn't need separate tiering because Slaking is simply superior in spite of all the Truant limitations.
Now, about Slaking. You can buy Giga Impact TM about as soon as he evolves and for a good while it's kinda overkill because Strength should be OHKOing most things. Hammer Arm can be tutored but it's dubious that you'll want to hit something like Golem or Rhyperior with it. Really, you'll be mostly using normal-type moves with Slaking, opting for something like Earthquake for that perfect accuracy when you know you're grabbing the kill anyway.
I believe Colonel M was estimating how many turns it would take Slaking to sweep. I don't see the point of these calculations because Slaking is never going to sweep anything. However, the inability to nuke a lot of targets, potentially very problematic targets, is invaluable. For example, you lack somebody who can reliably and quickly KO Wallace's Milotic so you just Giga Impact it - one-shotted as you would expect. It put a huge dent into Primal Groudon too (~70% HP gone) and I kept OHKOing tougher mons in the E4 even at a 10-15 level disadvantage.
By switching Slaking in, you can continue making great contributions to your team and Giga Impact PP is not a problem because Leppa Berries exist. Slaking offers S-tier Mega form level offence (possibly more) while contributing to the team in small bursts - these bursts can mean more than half of the team OHKO'd (odd number of Pokemon in a trainer's team) to somebody's entire team (one-mon teams are often the hardest generic trainer battles in the game).
At lower levels, Slaking has other utility - taking hits when the team is in trouble and outspeeding many targets due to high base speed. It is a good idea to leave Slaking with Counter or just tutor it to him before the E4 - I had trouble with Steven's Mega Metagross for example and Slaking is just healthy enough to take a Giga Impact / Meteor Mash from him and KO him with Counter. That moveslot can't be considered wasted because Slaking pretty much needs just one move when you get it.
Truant can definitely be worked around with such stats, so I'd like to nominate Slakoth for A/B tier and discourage Vigoroth from being tiered separately.
Next one I'd like to talk about is Mawile.
Great bulk and typing no doubt, and I must say I was mistaken when I said it's bad without the mega evolution. If your team is struggling at a hefty level disadvantage, it can be a good idea to mega-evolve somebody else (you have like 20 other options in this game lmao) and keep using normal Mawile as an Intimidate switch-in that can still tank certain mons well and can still deal respectable damage with STABs and Stone Edge (referring mainly to the E4 period where Sceptile was often the one who mega evolved instead of Mawile).
It's doing a good enough job pre-Fallarbor when the tutored STABs start seriously breaking the game even before you get the Mega evolution. Limited utility against Wattson however, as you don't have Low Sweep or Bulldoze access, and pointless against Flannery. In the upcoming battles however, it is very hard to not find some usage for Mawile and he can pull even a very weak underlevelled team ahead just by virtue of being there when you need him.
Mega Mawile has overkill power, moreso than Slaking (but his moves have lower BP so the two hit approximately equally hard for me) but nothing is overkill when you're facing somebody 15 levels above - I failed to OHKO Cradily with Iron Head as a mega for example. Setup seems largely unnecessary but I used PuP quite a bit, for instance to get back the attack lost from enemies' Intimidate switch-ins. Swords Dance + Sucker Punch is a good enough strat against Phoebe, too, but generally low speed prevents him from being a good setup sweeper. You don't mind though.
I'd say Mawile needed the least healing on my playthrough because of his typing and bulk (Slaking also didn't need much for obvious reasons, and Sceptile needed a good bit because Mega Drain was the hardest draining move on it). It was easily the MVP of the run.
Mawile's only con is having to backtrack to Granite Cave but the time required is rather acceptable, I've found. You can instantly tell which Mawile has Intimidate upon their appearance, so you spend less time dedicating to its capture, and you don't need extra Pokemon to catch Mawile (kinda like you need another Surfer to get Carvanha, or Oddish to get Magnemite). I definitely spent a lot more time trying to get a Corphish on the same run, and I spent about the same amount of time getting a Magnemite on my current run even though I didn't have to backtrack. It's a shortcoming to be remembered but not sufficient to warrant a tier drop in itself.
Mawile is quite likely Omega Ruby's equivalent to what Honedge was in X/Y. I'm nominating him for S/A-tier. While backtracking doesn't take so long, let's not forget Mawile is quite slow as well (not really noticeable early on) and won't take neutral special attacks when out of mega form.
I'd argue that, all things considered, he's a better steel-type than Magnemite (another serious candidate for S-tier).
Quick tierings for other teammates:
Treecko - A tier (below the big five, but above Carvanha, Lotad, Geodude and others currently present in A who still need to drop - the tier really needs to be split IMHO)
Numel - B/C tier (hard-hitter but slow and not all that bulky, afraid of water even with Solid Rock)
Corphish - B tier (late availability; mine had a +spd nature so it outsped more than I'd expect; all things considered, heavy hitter with good physical bulk and diverse movepool)
If the difficulty of access for Pledges is a problem for anyone, it's Marshtomp first and foremost, but Grovyle the least.
And assuming Treecko gets hit never (quite an exaggeration really) would be a good thing and not a bad one, right?
I also heard that Overgrow somehow "spoils" the recovery from Giga Drain - what's up with that? If you're in critical HP, you'll just drain more HP than you otherwise would. Sceptile is also the best user of his primary ability as a starter (assuming non-mega) considering how much faster he is than the other two. What's the use in Torrent or Blaze when you're risking being KO'd by not being fast enough?
Sceptile's speed is also a big boon, especially in the last portion of the game where grabbing kills can get quite hard and getting in that last chip to take a tough foe down without getting hit is pretty important.
Leaf Storm is also a very big move in-game and makes Sceptile a real hard-hitter.
On the other hand, Sceptile isn't bulky enough to ensure a reliable sweep in the important battles. However, sweeping isn't the sole requirement to be in the highest tiers. What is Swampert sweeping for example? Not a whole lot even with Rain Dance and PuP.
On the topic of DexNav, are there any definite statistics available on the probability rates of certain abilities, breeding moves and higher-than-normal levels appearing? For example I have a Breloom with Drain Punch and this thing really packs a wallop but how likely is a player to find the same Shroomish that I did?
Slaking
The Slakoth period was bad. For some time, I did switch-grinding, then I turned on Exp Share for a little while because I was getting tired of it, only switching it in for battles that give a lot of exp like the double ones. There is no doubt that Slaking needs to be penalised for this period and its length.
As Vigoroth, this guy is quite comparable to starters' second tier forms in power except that he doesn't have a super-effective STAB. I ran Strength/Power-up Punch/Bulldoze/Shadow Claw (since I also used Mawile on the same run) on mine, and most of the time it was OHKOing things with SS-boosted Strength. Bulk Up is a choice but is obsolete when you can just get the same power boost with PuP while striking a weakness. Sometimes I gave it Rock Tomb and/or Low Sweep depending on the area I was in.
Though Vigoroth was more than good for the period he existed in, I believe he doesn't need separate tiering because Slaking is simply superior in spite of all the Truant limitations.
Now, about Slaking. You can buy Giga Impact TM about as soon as he evolves and for a good while it's kinda overkill because Strength should be OHKOing most things. Hammer Arm can be tutored but it's dubious that you'll want to hit something like Golem or Rhyperior with it. Really, you'll be mostly using normal-type moves with Slaking, opting for something like Earthquake for that perfect accuracy when you know you're grabbing the kill anyway.
I believe Colonel M was estimating how many turns it would take Slaking to sweep. I don't see the point of these calculations because Slaking is never going to sweep anything. However, the inability to nuke a lot of targets, potentially very problematic targets, is invaluable. For example, you lack somebody who can reliably and quickly KO Wallace's Milotic so you just Giga Impact it - one-shotted as you would expect. It put a huge dent into Primal Groudon too (~70% HP gone) and I kept OHKOing tougher mons in the E4 even at a 10-15 level disadvantage.
By switching Slaking in, you can continue making great contributions to your team and Giga Impact PP is not a problem because Leppa Berries exist. Slaking offers S-tier Mega form level offence (possibly more) while contributing to the team in small bursts - these bursts can mean more than half of the team OHKO'd (odd number of Pokemon in a trainer's team) to somebody's entire team (one-mon teams are often the hardest generic trainer battles in the game).
At lower levels, Slaking has other utility - taking hits when the team is in trouble and outspeeding many targets due to high base speed. It is a good idea to leave Slaking with Counter or just tutor it to him before the E4 - I had trouble with Steven's Mega Metagross for example and Slaking is just healthy enough to take a Giga Impact / Meteor Mash from him and KO him with Counter. That moveslot can't be considered wasted because Slaking pretty much needs just one move when you get it.
Truant can definitely be worked around with such stats, so I'd like to nominate Slakoth for A/B tier and discourage Vigoroth from being tiered separately.
Next one I'd like to talk about is Mawile.
Great bulk and typing no doubt, and I must say I was mistaken when I said it's bad without the mega evolution. If your team is struggling at a hefty level disadvantage, it can be a good idea to mega-evolve somebody else (you have like 20 other options in this game lmao) and keep using normal Mawile as an Intimidate switch-in that can still tank certain mons well and can still deal respectable damage with STABs and Stone Edge (referring mainly to the E4 period where Sceptile was often the one who mega evolved instead of Mawile).
It's doing a good enough job pre-Fallarbor when the tutored STABs start seriously breaking the game even before you get the Mega evolution. Limited utility against Wattson however, as you don't have Low Sweep or Bulldoze access, and pointless against Flannery. In the upcoming battles however, it is very hard to not find some usage for Mawile and he can pull even a very weak underlevelled team ahead just by virtue of being there when you need him.
Mega Mawile has overkill power, moreso than Slaking (but his moves have lower BP so the two hit approximately equally hard for me) but nothing is overkill when you're facing somebody 15 levels above - I failed to OHKO Cradily with Iron Head as a mega for example. Setup seems largely unnecessary but I used PuP quite a bit, for instance to get back the attack lost from enemies' Intimidate switch-ins. Swords Dance + Sucker Punch is a good enough strat against Phoebe, too, but generally low speed prevents him from being a good setup sweeper. You don't mind though.
I'd say Mawile needed the least healing on my playthrough because of his typing and bulk (Slaking also didn't need much for obvious reasons, and Sceptile needed a good bit because Mega Drain was the hardest draining move on it). It was easily the MVP of the run.
Mawile's only con is having to backtrack to Granite Cave but the time required is rather acceptable, I've found. You can instantly tell which Mawile has Intimidate upon their appearance, so you spend less time dedicating to its capture, and you don't need extra Pokemon to catch Mawile (kinda like you need another Surfer to get Carvanha, or Oddish to get Magnemite). I definitely spent a lot more time trying to get a Corphish on the same run, and I spent about the same amount of time getting a Magnemite on my current run even though I didn't have to backtrack. It's a shortcoming to be remembered but not sufficient to warrant a tier drop in itself.
Mawile is quite likely Omega Ruby's equivalent to what Honedge was in X/Y. I'm nominating him for S/A-tier. While backtracking doesn't take so long, let's not forget Mawile is quite slow as well (not really noticeable early on) and won't take neutral special attacks when out of mega form.
I'd argue that, all things considered, he's a better steel-type than Magnemite (another serious candidate for S-tier).
Quick tierings for other teammates:
Treecko - A tier (below the big five, but above Carvanha, Lotad, Geodude and others currently present in A who still need to drop - the tier really needs to be split IMHO)
Numel - B/C tier (hard-hitter but slow and not all that bulky, afraid of water even with Solid Rock)
Corphish - B tier (late availability; mine had a +spd nature so it outsped more than I'd expect; all things considered, heavy hitter with good physical bulk and diverse movepool)
It seems clear that Treecko wants his Pledge the least out of the three starters. Marshtomp wants it the most because Water Gun remains the best water-type STAB until Surf otherwise, and Combusken wouldn't mind a move stronger than Flame Charge considering he's equally good at special attacks. Meanwhile, Treecko can get a very early and potent Giga Drain that has almost the same power but far superior utility to the Pledges.
If the difficulty of access for Pledges is a problem for anyone, it's Marshtomp first and foremost, but Grovyle the least.
I think some of the arguments against Treecko are a little strange, this one included. If he fails to KO, he will be hit - the damage could be big depending on the attack. Next time you attack, you drain the HP dealt back, and choosing when to use the mon can imply you don't need any healing at all. That was the case while I still had Mega Drain and it wasn't obsolete, and the same would have been the case if I postponed the evolution a little bit.
And assuming Treecko gets hit never (quite an exaggeration really) would be a good thing and not a bad one, right?
I also heard that Overgrow somehow "spoils" the recovery from Giga Drain - what's up with that? If you're in critical HP, you'll just drain more HP than you otherwise would. Sceptile is also the best user of his primary ability as a starter (assuming non-mega) considering how much faster he is than the other two. What's the use in Torrent or Blaze when you're risking being KO'd by not being fast enough?
Sceptile's speed is also a big boon, especially in the last portion of the game where grabbing kills can get quite hard and getting in that last chip to take a tough foe down without getting hit is pretty important.
Leaf Storm is also a very big move in-game and makes Sceptile a real hard-hitter.
On the other hand, Sceptile isn't bulky enough to ensure a reliable sweep in the important battles. However, sweeping isn't the sole requirement to be in the highest tiers. What is Swampert sweeping for example? Not a whole lot even with Rain Dance and PuP.
On the topic of DexNav, are there any definite statistics available on the probability rates of certain abilities, breeding moves and higher-than-normal levels appearing? For example I have a Breloom with Drain Punch and this thing really packs a wallop but how likely is a player to find the same Shroomish that I did?
Thanks.
lol, you're banning Exp. Share AND DexNav?
This isn't an in-game tier list, it's a tier list with a set of arbitrary restrictions. But hey, keep on pretending that you're so smart by making a simple game more complicated than it really is.
This isn't an in-game tier list, it's a tier list with a set of arbitrary restrictions. But hey, keep on pretending that you're so smart by making a simple game more complicated than it really is.
Please read the thread and the OP before you post a complaint. Reasoning for both of the bans are clearly stated in both places :)
Actually the problem is more or less the trainer needs to be a little smarter in 2HKO scenarios. Though Treecko and friends can heal they may not get a lot back. Sometimes Treecko would 2HKO but Giga Drain did over 75% - if Treecko takes a bigger hit then there is some health missing. It isnt that it cant be worked around - I actually did it through making sure Treecko's drain would KO as the second move instead. So sometimes it takes a little more manipulation in comparison to something like Shroomish who is naturally slower and has the benefit of taking the hit before.
Sucks that you didnt wait for Giga Drain though. The power difference is very substantial and Grass Pledge is not even close to necessary with Giga Drain in your repitoire. I actually look forward to Sceptile because the decision of Mega SD and just going Special will be really hard.
Also wrt Overgrow - I want to chime and say that Treecko is very potent with Overgrow. It may seem counterintuitive with Drains; however, Overgrow I believe is a big reason why I 2HKOed a lot of Pokemon with Mega Drain - and you can obtain a crapload of health back. Dont get too hyper about it though - though Swampert is fair in Torrent, Blaziken is usually fast enough to take advantage of Blaze. Even so I mostly used HJK - which isnt helped by Blaze.
I actually want to use Mudkip next because no one really used him. I want to finish this playthrough with Treecko though because Golem is proving to be very worthy of A (arguably more than some of its competition) and to see how Treecko / Crobat fair later.
Wrt Slakoth - I did not mention turns because there are some threatening Pokemon that can arise for the team. The problem is that a lot of Pokemon you may want to OHKO you also want to set up on. Elite 4 is hard to tackle with brute force alone and the question of needing to sack a Pokemon asap is questionable. Im not saying the problem doesnt exist; however, attempting to name Pokemon that need to be KOed ASAP is... hard.
Remember though, folks, with Slaking you cannot deny that it will almost always OHKO a Pokemon and some situations do call for it.
I dont think I can buy A Tier though. While Vigoroth and Slaking do perform very well Slakoth is a major pain in the ass and doesnt have the most convenient methods for training it. EXP Share is the best but since the list does ban it - this makes the situation more complicated.
Finally I want to point out that I may speak to Celever about a minor revamp - this is because S Tier mons are becoming less and less obvious. I believe we all can agree on Torchic based on it smashing through a good portion of the game with its dual STABs. We'll have to see.
Sucks that you didnt wait for Giga Drain though. The power difference is very substantial and Grass Pledge is not even close to necessary with Giga Drain in your repitoire. I actually look forward to Sceptile because the decision of Mega SD and just going Special will be really hard.
Also wrt Overgrow - I want to chime and say that Treecko is very potent with Overgrow. It may seem counterintuitive with Drains; however, Overgrow I believe is a big reason why I 2HKOed a lot of Pokemon with Mega Drain - and you can obtain a crapload of health back. Dont get too hyper about it though - though Swampert is fair in Torrent, Blaziken is usually fast enough to take advantage of Blaze. Even so I mostly used HJK - which isnt helped by Blaze.
I actually want to use Mudkip next because no one really used him. I want to finish this playthrough with Treecko though because Golem is proving to be very worthy of A (arguably more than some of its competition) and to see how Treecko / Crobat fair later.
Wrt Slakoth - I did not mention turns because there are some threatening Pokemon that can arise for the team. The problem is that a lot of Pokemon you may want to OHKO you also want to set up on. Elite 4 is hard to tackle with brute force alone and the question of needing to sack a Pokemon asap is questionable. Im not saying the problem doesnt exist; however, attempting to name Pokemon that need to be KOed ASAP is... hard.
Remember though, folks, with Slaking you cannot deny that it will almost always OHKO a Pokemon and some situations do call for it.
I dont think I can buy A Tier though. While Vigoroth and Slaking do perform very well Slakoth is a major pain in the ass and doesnt have the most convenient methods for training it. EXP Share is the best but since the list does ban it - this makes the situation more complicated.
Finally I want to point out that I may speak to Celever about a minor revamp - this is because S Tier mons are becoming less and less obvious. I believe we all can agree on Torchic based on it smashing through a good portion of the game with its dual STABs. We'll have to see.
1. Don't be arrogant and don't be rude.
2. Be productive.
3. Do your research and back your baseless arguments up.
If you really want Exp. Share or DexNav to be included in the main tier list then put your case forward. Odds are however it is not going to happen because a) in the case of Exp. Share the very nature of it and what players generally do results in sharp overlevelling which in turn skews the perceptions of Pokémon and masking their flaws, and b) in the case of DexNav it is too inefficient; Finding an optimal mon where level can be +10, desired ability and move etc can easily take an hour at least (Exhibit A: The Numel I used and Exhibit B: The Protean Kecleon I used for my AS run) and even then, finding a simple desired move can be very time consuming given the large list of moves that could be DexNavved on a certain mon. Ele-Fang Poochyena is the sole exception.
Instead of asking why not, ask yourself why.
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Anyhow Maggy watch. Maggy was decent with the Meteor Falls battle one shotting the Grunt with Volt Switch and pivoting out and on Mt. Chimney is was also decent. Could not one shot the Mightyena or Golbat but Volt Switch pivoting was quite cool I guess. Lavaridge Gym and I kinda underestimated Maggy there. Level 28 one one shotted Slugma with Volt Switch and obviously does nothing to Numel. It cannot 2HKO Torkoal with Volt Switch but pivoting to Marshtomp to then KO with Mud Shot after it wasted a turn to use Sunny Day was pretty cool. Maggy outspeeds all those targets even with -Speed so that works for it. I would give the matchup a 3/5 on the sole basis that one shotting a Slugma and pivoting with Volt Switch against Torkoal into a favourable matchup or whatever is pretty cool. Though on that basis the Maggy vs. Torkoal matchup is kinda even only if Sunny Day is not up because it cannot 2HKO with Volt Switch and Sturdy means it lives an Overheat without much issues. If you really have to you can easily Potion stall Torkoal but you could alternatively just use Volt Switch and pivot to a mon that can KO it without any issues.
That said Volt Switch is pretty interesting wrt efficiency though hitting and running from a normally disadvantageous matchup is a bad idea, the idea of sending in a better suited mon that can easily take whatever move and KO something in one hit instead of two is a bit of an advantage over simply switching in the mon as they come in. Then there is the issue of not OHKOing an advantageous matchup and then having to send in something when you do not want to... >_>
My proposal for splitting up the higher-end mons:
S-tier
Abra (trade), Torchic, Marill, Mudkip, Latios
A-tier
Treecko, Latias, Magnemite, Mawile, Electrike, Magikarp, Ralts, Groudon, Kyogre
B-tier
Abra (no trade), Absol, Slakoth, Geodude (trade), Carvanha, Corphish, Heracross, Pinsir, Lotad, Makuhita, Numel, Zangoose, Shroomish, Roselia
One could argue that the gap between, say, Mudkip and Treecko isn't big enough to separate them by one tier. In this event, Mudkip is the one going down as opposed to lifting Treecko up. Some of the A-mons could belong in S as well (Mawile, Magnemite and Magikarp - the three Ms are all candidates).
Latios could rise a tier above Latias due to much better offensive stats and Dragon Dance access. After all, we value offence over tanking capacity (which becomes less prominent endgame with even moderately bulky Pokemon getting 2HKO'd with neutral attacks in the E4).
The B-tier is more cluttered this way but some of these (Geodude, Lotad, Numel) could go down further and join the likes of Zubat and Chinchou in C.
I also really don't see how a Poochyena with an elemental fang is a whole tier better than the regular one. They're both total scrubs, even with tutored Crunch and Intimidate doesn't save you at all when you're so offensively impotent.
For in-game purposes, non-mega Blaziken isn't quite fast enough to consistently outspeed in the endgame but the mega version is the champion of speed because of the mega ability, as long as you stay in battle for just one turn (Protect is kind of a waste of a moveslot).
S-tier
Abra (trade), Torchic, Marill, Mudkip, Latios
A-tier
Treecko, Latias, Magnemite, Mawile, Electrike, Magikarp, Ralts, Groudon, Kyogre
B-tier
Abra (no trade), Absol, Slakoth, Geodude (trade), Carvanha, Corphish, Heracross, Pinsir, Lotad, Makuhita, Numel, Zangoose, Shroomish, Roselia
One could argue that the gap between, say, Mudkip and Treecko isn't big enough to separate them by one tier. In this event, Mudkip is the one going down as opposed to lifting Treecko up. Some of the A-mons could belong in S as well (Mawile, Magnemite and Magikarp - the three Ms are all candidates).
Latios could rise a tier above Latias due to much better offensive stats and Dragon Dance access. After all, we value offence over tanking capacity (which becomes less prominent endgame with even moderately bulky Pokemon getting 2HKO'd with neutral attacks in the E4).
The B-tier is more cluttered this way but some of these (Geodude, Lotad, Numel) could go down further and join the likes of Zubat and Chinchou in C.
I also really don't see how a Poochyena with an elemental fang is a whole tier better than the regular one. They're both total scrubs, even with tutored Crunch and Intimidate doesn't save you at all when you're so offensively impotent.
Being slow is never an advantage. Unless you have to rely on something like Payback to deal your damage, but that's also a problem of the Pokemon's offence. There's absolutely nothing wrong with not needing recovery - but when you do need some (even just to feel more confident about the next battles without going into the item menu), it's there and it works 100% of the time unlike proc effect moves. If Shroomish is slow, he could be status'd, flinched and have all sorts of other things done to him that prevent him from regenerating HP. His Giga Drain is a lot weaker too!
I was the one who brought the early Giga Drain up first in this topic iirc, but this was an afterthought a little after my own Treecko evolved. I never taught mine Grass Pledge and kept Leaf Blade instead because of the PuP / Swords Dance options. Leaf Storm was relearned at the earliest convenience and was highly effective.
Blaziken's strongest fire-type moves are Flare Blitz and Overheat, and there's a problem with using one of these all the time. I suppose you could reduce your HP by using Flare Blitz repeatedly and then throw up a really mean Overheat before switching out (if the battle isn't over yet somehow), but if you try to Flare Blitz while low on HP you could lose your Blaziken.
For in-game purposes, non-mega Blaziken isn't quite fast enough to consistently outspeed in the endgame but the mega version is the champion of speed because of the mega ability, as long as you stay in battle for just one turn (Protect is kind of a waste of a moveslot).
A lot of people have used Mudkip in this thread, and the feedback is mostly that he's as strong as expected or a little underwhelming in the period of time before you get Bulldoze followed by Dig. The special ground-type moves are effective enough because of the sheer number of ground-weak enemies around the 3rd gym, but Water Gun will fail to OHKO some Numels and Camerupts, which is a bit ridiculous. I'm using a Swampert on my new run and while he's strong I'm not quite sure he's S-tier strong. I'd place him in the same tier as Treecko tbqh.
"Wanting to set up" is not always an option because not every matchup is good, and not every Pokemon you're using is named Gyarados. Mega Sceptile may want to setup with Swords Dance but usually lacks the opportunity. Zangoose tends to suffer from the same problem. A lot of high-end Pokemon like Swampert would rather come in to tank a hit and take something out with extended coverage moves instead of going for an awkward setup attempt by using, say, Rain Dance then Power-up Punch (or the other way around) to proceed spamming Waterfall. As stated, the endgame enemies are bulky enough to take even those hits - so even Gyarados will be spending quite a bit of time setting up, and said turns could have as well been used to just pick one out of 5 Pokemon in your team with a respectable type matchup against each individual mon.
If I had to recommend an efficient way to train Slakoth without Exp Share, I'd just suggest to memorise the trainers using fully evolved/unevolving Pokemon like Plusle and Roselia (not fully evolved anymore but offering a wealth of exp nevertheless) and also lead with it in double battles. Slakoth's period of uselessness is close to Magikarp's this way, except he can also contribute by using Yawn before switching out, which can be handy in places. I probably should've kept Yawn on my set considering that Vigoroth/Slaking mostly spam Strength and Giga Impact anyway. Giga Impact/Counter/Yawn/Hammer Arm or Shadow Claw or Earthquake Slaking would be optimal for the E4, too.
I'm also testing Magneton now, and it sometimes fails to OHKO electric-weak fliers while being forced to switch out, with a neutral nature for sp. atk. I must also add that Flash Cannon/Volt Switch/Tri Attack is hardly amazing coverage and probably the poorest of the candidates for S-tier. Discharge also comes too late, and Thunderbolt is nowhere in sight in the remakes. Of course, we all know all of this since the B2/W2 days as Magnemite has hardly changed at all since then.
Honestly with what I used of the fang Poochyena, I agree with this assessment. I tried out Fire Fang Poochyena for a short while before dropping it for Magnemite and I was really unimpressed. Having a 95% Accurate move as your only attacking move for several levels that is not much better than Tackle is a bit of a downer and really does not help it that much. Sure you do far better against the Route 110 Grovyle** and you perform a bit better against Wattson (which is already a bad matchup) but it really adds nothing special to its performance. You still do not beat Roxanne and against Brawly it can work against you. I am not sure on the other fangs but based on this alone, Elemental Fang Poochyena is no better than normal Poochyena.
Also I agree that Magnemite is not worth S. The opportunity cost of having to spend half an hour to get it up to par with the rest of the team and the hoops you have to jump through to get it early (Catch Oddish and use Sweet Scent) put it in the red and it is quite reliant on Sonic Boom early on, especially against Wattson where while you can solo the encounter, it takes ten rounds at best because of how much HP his Pokémon have and the Super Potion he has up his sleeve (then again he cannot deal much to you) and you are relying on a ~34.9% Chance to get ten hits in a row (Then again I had lots of fortune that encounter). It looks more of a low-mid A from what I have seen though I still have half a game to go with it. Definitely not good enough for S.
**: 12 Atk Mightyena (Lv18 and 16 IV's) Fire Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Grovyle (15 IV's): 34-40 (64.1 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
12 Atk Mightyena (Lv18 and 16 IV's) Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Grovyle (15 IV's): 22-27 (41.5 - 50.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
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