Serebii confirmed that the Unova starters are getting released with their hidden abilities, which means Samurott gets Shell Armor and, more importantly, Serperior now finally gets Contrary! I imagine that will make it significantly better in NU.
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Metagame np: Stage 3 - 9(9) Problems
- Thread starter jake
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CanadianWifier
Run Away With Me
Once it does get released, it'll likely get suspected rather quickly, then later stolen by a higher tier via usage.. However it will be fun to use while it lasts.
About time, though RIP SubCM Serp in NU
About time, though RIP SubCM Serp in NU
Hi guys, iplaytennislol here :]. This core here goes back to the beginning of XY NU. Most everyone encountered the infamous core of Probopass, Vileplume and Hariyama some point in there laddering. This post is an updated version of that core. The only change being Mega Steelix over Probopass.
Hariyama @ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts/Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 228 SpD / 28 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch/Earthquake/Fake-out
- Knock Off
- Bullet Punch
In this current meta, Hariyama continues to do what it has always done. It takes special hits well because it almost always runs the item assault vest. This allows it to take special hits well and retaliate with a strong close combat or knock off. Thick fat allows it to eat up a specs eruption from a Typhlosion as well as an ice beam from a Cryogonal making it one of the best switch ins to fire or ice spam in NU. On teams with counters to fire and ice, i recommend running guts. I have been using guts recently with ice punch to kill Vileplume. It is very unexpected and can put in a lot of work.
Vileplume @ Black Sludge
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 224 HP / 252 Def / 32 Spe
Bold Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Sleep Powder/Hidden Power Fire
- Synthesis
In this current meta, Vileplume is just like Hariyama in that it has done what it has always done. It takes physical hits extremely well with its unique defensive typing. Grass/Poison allows Vileplume to take banded close combats from Sawk and plus 2 ice punches from Feraligatr. Since Sawk and Feraligatr are extremely common in the current metagame, Vileplume is a huge threat. Sleep powder helps you to beat mega steelix one on one. However, if your team is weak to Ferroseed or Klinklang, hidden power fire can surprise those steel types and deal big damage.
Steelix @ Steelixite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 76 HP / 252 Atk / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge/Roar
- Stealth Rock/Fire Fang
In the current meta, mega Steelix takes over Probopass on this core for a couple reasons. It has a more offensive presence in that it can 2 hit ko Vileplume with heavy slam and outspeed most varients because of this ev spread. It also beats Kangaskhan one on one wheras Probopass fails to do so. Drain punch and earthquake decimate Probopass however those moves do only 30% max to mega Steelix. Stone edge can hit Mantine which has become more common because of mega Camerupt. I have tried fire fang and it is surprisingly useful against Ferroseed. No one sees it coming which is why it is useful.
This core is so strong because it covers each other's weaknesses. For example, Hariyama checks fire types which destroy Vileplume and Steelix. Steelix checks psychic types that would otherwise take down Vileplume and Hariyama. Lastly, Vileplume checks fighting types that would otherwise beat Hariyama and Steelix.
***Things to watch out for when using this core***
SAWK- Banded Sawk commonly carries ice punch so beware as the switch to plume is fairly obvious and ice punch easily 2 hit ko's.
FERALIGATR- The biggest thing with Feraligatr is that it beats plume unless plume is at near max hp. Constantly keep an eye on plume's hp to ensure living a plus 2 ice punch.
SWANNA- Water/Flying decimates this core. In order to check this, i recommend Lanturn to go along with the core.
***Mons that go well with the core***
LANTURN- As mentioned above, Lanturn checks Swanna which could otherwise destroy this core.
KABUTOPS- I have been using Kabutops with this core for a couple reasons. One, it is a secondary offensive fire check that can spin away hazards that would otherwise hurt the team. Kabutops also provides more priority which helps this core since it is rather slow.
MESPRIT- I have been running a bulky Mesprit set that provides momentum with u-turn and healing wish. Imo, the only reason to use Mesprit over Uxie. Healing wish allows you to bring back one of your team members that has gotten weakened in order to check your opponents threats.
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Really good post buddy :] I have been using archeops however instead of steelix with this core for sometime, it gives me defog and a faster way to check certain threats, but you could add archeops to one of the last 3 mons in the team, but great core :]
Hi guys, iplaytennislol here :]. This core here goes back to the beginning of XY NU. Most everyone encountered the infamous core of Probopass, Vileplume and Hariyama some point in there laddering. This post is an updated version of that core. The only change being Mega Steelix over Probopass.
Hariyama @ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts/Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 228 SpD / 28 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch/Earthquake/Fake-out
- Knock Off
- Bullet Punch
In this current meta, Hariyama continues to do what it has always done. It takes special hits well because it almost always runs the item assault vest. This allows it to take special hits well and retaliate with a strong close combat or knock off. Thick fat allows it to eat up a specs eruption from a Typhlosion as well as an ice beam from a Cryogonal making it one of the best switch ins to fire or ice spam in NU. On teams with counters to fire and ice, i recommend running guts. I have been using guts recently with ice punch to kill Vileplume. It is very unexpected and can put in a lot of work.
Vileplume @ Black Sludge
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 224 HP / 252 Def / 32 Spe
Bold Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Sleep Powder/Hidden Power Fire
- Synthesis
In this current meta, Vileplume is just like Hariyama in that it has done what it has always done. It takes physical hits extremely well with its unique defensive typing. Grass/Poison allows Vileplume to take banded close combats from Sawk and plus 2 ice punches from Feraligatr. Since Sawk and Feraligatr are extremely common in the current metagame, Vileplume is a huge threat. Sleep powder helps you to beat mega steelix one on one. However, if your team is weak to Ferroseed or Klinklang, hidden power fire can surprise those steel types and deal big damage.
Steelix @ Steelixite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 76 HP / 252 Atk / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge/Roar
- Stealth Rock/Fire Fang
In the current meta, mega Steelix takes over Probopass on this core for a couple reasons. It has a more offensive presence in that it can 2 hit ko Vileplume with heavy slam and outspeed most varients because of this ev spread. It also beats Kangaskhan one on one wheras Probopass fails to do so. Drain punch and earthquake decimate Probopass however those moves do only 30% max to mega Steelix. Stone edge can hit Mantine which has become more common because of mega Camerupt. I have tried fire fang and it is surprisingly useful against Ferroseed. No one sees it coming which is why it is useful.
This core is so strong because it covers each other's weaknesses. For example, Hariyama checks fire types which destroy Vileplume and Steelix. Steelix checks psychic types that would otherwise take down Vileplume and Hariyama. Lastly, Vileplume checks fighting types that would otherwise beat Hariyama and Steelix.
***Things to watch out for when using this core***
SAWK- Banded Sawk commonly carries ice punch so beware as the switch to plume is fairly obvious and ice punch easily 2 hit ko's.
FERALIGATR- The biggest thing with Feraligatr is that it beats plume unless plume is at near max hp. Constantly keep an eye on plume's hp to ensure living a plus 2 ice punch.
SWANNA- Water/Flying decimates this core. In order to check this, i recommend Lanturn to go along with the core.
***Mons that go well with the core***
LANTURN- As mentioned above, Lanturn checks Swanna which could otherwise destroy this core.
KABUTOPS- I have been using Kabutops with this core for a couple reasons. One, it is a secondary offensive fire check that can spin away hazards that would otherwise hurt the team. Kabutops also provides more priority which helps this core since it is rather slow.
MESPRIT- I have been running a bulky Mesprit set that provides momentum with u-turn and healing wish. Imo, the only reason to use Mesprit over Uxie. Healing wish allows you to bring back one of your team members that has gotten weakened in order to check your opponents threats.
Also, a threat to this core could be Xatu because it carries heat wave, since steelix is offensive. This was the main reason why probo was used in the original core, since sigilyph couldn't hit probopass super effectively, so maybe add it to the threats? xD Although if you're using a lanturn, it may not be too much of a problem, but yeah great core remastered with a new common threat :]
Would Rotom fit in that team as well? Kills swanna, has levitate cause all 3 mons can fall to EQ on that core, and is a decently fast mon that can will-o the mons you suggested as checks, such as sawk
GlassGlaceon
My heart has now been set on love
just to make this thread aware
Contrary Serperiorand shell armor samurott will possibly be coming out soon as of the time of my knowledge at this post.
this could be big because contrary leaf storm+hp fire+dragon pulse is p much perfect coverage except against the based lord evio marill
thought? opinions? ideas?
Contrary Serperior
this could be big because contrary leaf storm+hp fire+dragon pulse is p much perfect coverage except against the based lord evio marill
thought? opinions? ideas?
Contrary Serp could be cool as a shitty replacement for base form Sceptile as an offensive Grass type, without being forced to run CM for power. I feel like it'd be one of the easier things to check on offensive teams just because its coverage is weak as piss and even at +2 you're not koing shit with your coverage moves, for example vileplume takes like 60 from +2 hp fire iirc. should be fun, but it'll prob be underwhelming.
edit: im retarded and calc'd a garb serp spread, plume ain't shit to it. but you can easily check it on offense or balance with shit like archeops and sneasel. only good serp set gonna be like sub 2 attacks taunt/leech seed/synth
edit: im retarded and calc'd a garb serp spread, plume ain't shit to it. but you can easily check it on offense or balance with shit like archeops and sneasel. only good serp set gonna be like sub 2 attacks taunt/leech seed/synth
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Q
Serperior @ Life Orb/Leftovers/Meadow Plate
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Giga Drain
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 52-61 (14.6 - 17.2%) -- possible 9HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 260-307 (73.4 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (high chance to 2HKO after SRs)
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 129-152 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 256-302 (76.6 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garbodor: 113-133 (31 - 36.5%) -- 65.7% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garbodor: 225-265 (61.8 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 138-164 (32.1 - 38.2%) -- 95.1% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 274-325 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 105-125 (32.4 - 38.5%) -- 2.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 208-246 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 109-130 (32.6 - 38.9%) -- 7.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 218-257 (65.2 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Very, very little switches into this thing, and even less pokemon outspeed it (also, Kiyo, Archeops gets outsped). The ability to both use a move as powerful as STAB Leaf Storm while simultaneously getting a Nasty Plot boost is something never before seen in the game, and I believe it will be a little too much for NU to handle.
And on comes the rise of specially defensive poison types.
edit at below: The main reason I like HP Fire is to nail Ferroseed and Vileplume, which are generally bigger defensive threats than Sp Def poison types, though losing to opposing Serps is annoying.
e2: Also, Leaf Storm already smacks fire types, and even offensive Flareon is 2HKOed after a layer of Spikes.
Serperior @ Life Orb/Leftovers/Meadow Plate
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Giga Drain
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 52-61 (14.6 - 17.2%) -- possible 9HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 260-307 (73.4 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (high chance to 2HKO after SRs)
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 129-152 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 256-302 (76.6 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garbodor: 113-133 (31 - 36.5%) -- 65.7% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garbodor: 225-265 (61.8 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 138-164 (32.1 - 38.2%) -- 95.1% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 274-325 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 105-125 (32.4 - 38.5%) -- 2.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 208-246 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 109-130 (32.6 - 38.9%) -- 7.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 218-257 (65.2 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Very, very little switches into this thing, and even less pokemon outspeed it (also, Kiyo, Archeops gets outsped). The ability to both use a move as powerful as STAB Leaf Storm while simultaneously getting a Nasty Plot boost is something never before seen in the game, and I believe it will be a little too much for NU to handle.
And on comes the rise of specially defensive poison types.
edit at below: The main reason I like HP Fire is to nail Ferroseed and Vileplume, which are generally bigger defensive threats than Sp Def poison types, though losing to opposing Serps is annoying.
e2: Also, Leaf Storm already smacks fire types, and even offensive Flareon is 2HKOed after a layer of Spikes.
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tbqh i would rather be using hp ground + dragon pulse over sub + hp fire. sub honestly does little for you apart from dropping to overgrow range and avoiding sucker punches (so i suppose it does good there), but hp ground covers all of: poison-types, fire-types (flareon!), steel-types, and doesn't drop your speed IV which is pretty important. you lose out on the speed tie with other serp if you're running hp fire, which means you have to consider eating this:
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 125-148 (42.9 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
every time you come up against another serp on the ladder, even if you're in the midst of a sweep.
but yeah fuck grass snake 2strong4nu
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 125-148 (42.9 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
every time you come up against another serp on the ladder, even if you're in the midst of a sweep.
but yeah fuck grass snake 2strong4nu
Alright, the NU Council will be doing one more Quick Ban vote in the coming days. The Pokemon that we will be voting on are Mega Glalie, Mega Camerupt, and Pangoro. Later on, if we decide to retest any items and Pokemon remaining in BL3, those votes will be open to the public. Anyone and everyone is welcome to comment on these suspects itt, although I ask you to remain on topic and don't write up tl;drs rehashing information we already know in order to make your post look longer. Discuss checks and counters, talk about the metagame, post calcs that are relevant to your argument, but for the love of Zebraiken please try not to tell us that Pangoro is slow but strong with Choice Band. We want to make this as productive of a conversation as possible.
If anyone reading this does not know why we are voting on these Pokemon, just post here and I'll get Soulgazer to give you a full explanation.
Info for council members: Please DO NOT send in your vote for at least 48 hours. Use this time to think about whether you want to ban these Pokemon from NU, and make sure you contribute to this thread!
- Incredible power with Glaciate boosted Double Edge and Explosion, limits ability to beat it defensively
- Super Fang allows Mega Glalie to remove defensive threats without recovery very easily
- Methods of beating it is primarily limited to faster Pokemon with a super effective move
- Very powerful with Sheer Force boosted Fire Blasts, Flamethrowers, and Earth Powers
- Serves as an amazing pivot due to its great type and bulk
- Incredibly powerful, and can break slower teams easily
- Huge variety in viable sets
- Shuts down defensive playstyles easily
If anyone reading this does not know why we are voting on these Pokemon, just post here and I'll get Soulgazer to give you a full explanation.
Info for council members: Please DO NOT send in your vote for at least 48 hours. Use this time to think about whether you want to ban these Pokemon from NU, and make sure you contribute to this thread!
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Not even the overcentralizing Mega Steelix. rip :[
seeing lots of usage != overcentralizing.
I think Glalie is super broken. Ice is probably the best STAB to have in NU. the only thing keeping Ice-types from being gross is that our only good one is Jynx, which is super frail and not quite fast enough for this meta. it's still good, but Mega Glalie doesn't have those problems. it has solid bulk, better Speed, and priority to hit the things it can't outspeed anyways. idrk how to talk about this thing outside of talking about what it does because it's such a simple Pokemon to use and build with. it's nearly the perfect offensive Pokemon, and it's just too good in NU, where we have like 3 ice resists and not much that outspeeds it, wants to tank an Ice Shard, and can kill it in return without the potential of losing tons of momentum. the only redeeming quality of it is that Mega Steelix and Prinplup are good checks, but it has Super Fang to fuck with both of them and can run Freeze-Dry for Prinplup (other Waters too I guess).
I don't think Mega Camerupt is broken. It is insanely strong and has really unique typing, but its Speed holds it back so much. the defensive Pokemon that it gets free switches on can opt to run moves to fuck with it and help keep it in check, even if they don't allow you to outright beat it (Sleep Powder on Vileplume, Baton Pass on Musharna, Leech Seed on Gourgeist, etc). There are also tons of Water-types in the tier, and even if they can't all switch in safely, it's not too hard to pivot around until you can get a free switch into something that can force it out. and that's just in the worst case scenario when you let it come in for free against something that it forces out, which in my experiences, isn't too common. definitely a top-tier Pokemon, but I think it fits in fine in NU.
pangoro is difficult. I'm kind of biased against it because a lot of my teams are pretty slow, and pangoro eats slow teams up. but I feel like when I don't just say "fuck it, this team is pangoro weak," it puts a tremendous strain on teambuilding. everyone makes the joke that the best pangoro set runs max hp/max atk/max spe with life orb and lum berry while carrying mold breaker eq / iron fist drain punch / knock off / taunt / swords dance / gunk shot, and it's easy to quickly dismiss people who talk about how it can run so much shit like that. but just because it can't run it all at once doesn't mean it can't run all of it in general. you still have to prepare for these sets, which is pretty much impossible. even preparing for just one set is really difficult because dark/fighting has nearly perfect neutral coverage, and anything it misses out on, it has coverage to hit. defensive teams pretty much have to accept that pangoro will be annoying for them. you can still check it on defensive teams, but it's hard not to give it a free kill when it has good bulk on top of everything else, so it can switch directly into plenty of defensive Pokemon and retaliate or set up on them. I'm still torn on what I'll do with this one, but it feels really broken to me atm.
I think Glalie is super broken. Ice is probably the best STAB to have in NU. the only thing keeping Ice-types from being gross is that our only good one is Jynx, which is super frail and not quite fast enough for this meta. it's still good, but Mega Glalie doesn't have those problems. it has solid bulk, better Speed, and priority to hit the things it can't outspeed anyways. idrk how to talk about this thing outside of talking about what it does because it's such a simple Pokemon to use and build with. it's nearly the perfect offensive Pokemon, and it's just too good in NU, where we have like 3 ice resists and not much that outspeeds it, wants to tank an Ice Shard, and can kill it in return without the potential of losing tons of momentum. the only redeeming quality of it is that Mega Steelix and Prinplup are good checks, but it has Super Fang to fuck with both of them and can run Freeze-Dry for Prinplup (other Waters too I guess).
I don't think Mega Camerupt is broken. It is insanely strong and has really unique typing, but its Speed holds it back so much. the defensive Pokemon that it gets free switches on can opt to run moves to fuck with it and help keep it in check, even if they don't allow you to outright beat it (Sleep Powder on Vileplume, Baton Pass on Musharna, Leech Seed on Gourgeist, etc). There are also tons of Water-types in the tier, and even if they can't all switch in safely, it's not too hard to pivot around until you can get a free switch into something that can force it out. and that's just in the worst case scenario when you let it come in for free against something that it forces out, which in my experiences, isn't too common. definitely a top-tier Pokemon, but I think it fits in fine in NU.
pangoro is difficult. I'm kind of biased against it because a lot of my teams are pretty slow, and pangoro eats slow teams up. but I feel like when I don't just say "fuck it, this team is pangoro weak," it puts a tremendous strain on teambuilding. everyone makes the joke that the best pangoro set runs max hp/max atk/max spe with life orb and lum berry while carrying mold breaker eq / iron fist drain punch / knock off / taunt / swords dance / gunk shot, and it's easy to quickly dismiss people who talk about how it can run so much shit like that. but just because it can't run it all at once doesn't mean it can't run all of it in general. you still have to prepare for these sets, which is pretty much impossible. even preparing for just one set is really difficult because dark/fighting has nearly perfect neutral coverage, and anything it misses out on, it has coverage to hit. defensive teams pretty much have to accept that pangoro will be annoying for them. you can still check it on defensive teams, but it's hard not to give it a free kill when it has good bulk on top of everything else, so it can switch directly into plenty of defensive Pokemon and retaliate or set up on them. I'm still torn on what I'll do with this one, but it feels really broken to me atm.
Just like always, I'm dropping a quick update on how much I'm considering banning each pokemon. I'm pretty much on the fence on Mega Camerupt (leaning to no ban on MegaRupt though) and Pangoro and can go either way, and am basically locked in over banning Mega Glalie.
The thing about Glalie is simply how stupidly strong it is and how easily it stacks with other threatening physical attackers. It can find itself fitting on just about any team, and it depending on moveset has no true counters, as even those are easily crippled on the switch by a quick Super Fang. Any team seeking to remove any single pokemon simply hits explosion, and wins from that point on due to the loss of that counter. It's stupidly efficient at its job as well with what can be considered a pretty high speed and a powerful EQ and Priority. Simply put, it's a one trick pony that simply has no switch-ins and does its job overly well, making it nigh impossible to consistently prepare for.
Pangoro is straight up flexible, and depending on moveset has a method of tackling any given threat in NU. Its sheer power and solid speed and bulk means that it can beat most playstyles easily and with coverage such as Gunk Shot and Stone Edge it can remove its own checks and counters. This said, I'm wary about banning it, because although it is incredibly powerful its EV spread determines its fate. If it opts for bulk, it is often outrun by many of the common pokemon in the metagame it should be beating. However, if it goes speedy it gets 2HKOd by stuff surprisingly easily, making it annoying to use as a bulky switchin, getting worn down quickly. Simply put, it's incredibly flexible and easily deals with the entire tier, but often must choose to go one way or another with a achilles heel, hindering its effectivity in certain occasions, leading to me ultimately being on the fence on this one.
Look, Mega-Camerupt is freaking strong. Its powerful. It easily 2HKOs literally everything. But in my experience, it has been underwhelming to say the least. It's not even close to as bulky as you would want it to be, especially with its meh typing, and its speed just isn't even something you want to talk about. It's also rather predictable, as its only variations are its standard Tank set or its somewhat..LOL Cro sets that make it so its a one trick pony. The abundance of Water and Ground types in the tier also makes it somewhat difficult to use. I'll admit it kills everything with Sheer Force and 145 SAtk, but I'm unsure if a ban is necessary since I've found it to be less than expected, but I can still go towards either side.
It's best set is honestly uninvested spA and max bulk, which actually lets it tank a bunch of Grass/Fire types and keep them in check like Typh, Pyroar (Specs hyper voice 2hko 30% of the time with rocks up) Plume, Lilligant and a bunch of others. It still faces the abysmal speed issue as well as it's reliance on tanking hits to deal damage, not to mention pretty much every team out there carry at least 1 Water-type that'll force it out. It's very consistent but idk, it doesn't seem like it's ban-worthy to me (
That was what I was saying lol it's straight up underwhelming and doesn't check the stuff it should be checking, it's just strong. Again IDC which way it goes.
What I was trying to say was I think you're underselling how bulky 70/100/105 is when you've invested in it. Specs Eruption only 3hko from Typh, which is about what it does to 252/0 Mantine (~4% difference) but with the bonus of lots of offensive presence and not weak to rocks. The offensive sets are honestly sub-par compared to max bulk ones, since with max bulk you actually do have defenses while still hitting hard enough. At least strong and bulky enough to check a decent number of mons like Lilligant and Typh.
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Camerupt: 113-133 (32.8 - 38.6%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mantine: 121-143 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- 97.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mantine: 121-143 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- 97.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
My thoughts:
Mega Camerupt
Right so we all know how strong as shit MegaRupt is, though Specs Typhlosion's Eruption is still stronger so it is not like we aren't familiar to that level of firepower, but second best is still an impressive feat for MegaRupt. Sure, it can switch moves while maintaining its tremendous strength, but being slower than every Water-type in the tier (or indeed, most Pokemon in general) means its wallbreaking potential is actually lower than that of wallbreaking Fire-types such as Magmortar and Ninetales, since they can easily do a follow-up attack on the switch-in unlike MegaRupt. Basically, I don't see anything that would make MegaRupt that much harder to deal with than existing Fire-types; it combines most of their traits but ends up not being too specialized. If anything MegaRupt is a healthy presence for the meta, as it very easily punishes Will-O-Wisp users thanks to its typing and bulk, while also offering a Volt Switch + Trick immunity just in case it isn't clear enough that it wants Rotom shoved up its volcanic ass. People have been using it as a bulky Fire-type which is welcome since there aren't much / any outside of Flareon, and what it lacks in reliable recovery, it makes up for with its SR neutrality and ability to hit back hard without hurting itself.
Pangoro
This guy is way too good at its job. It singlehandedly warps any and all defensively-inclined teams in such a way that they must either all overprepare for it or don't bother trying. Its access to Swords Dance and powerful dual STABs allow it to threaten almost all of the bulkiest Pokemon in the tier, and from there it is just a matter of picking the right coverage move to beat what it needs to. It's not just the STABs that makes Panda potent; the moves themselves are what make Panda truly devastating: Knock Off removes items and cripples a large variety of defensive Pokemon, while Drain Punch gives Panda great sustain and often heals off any damage it takes while setting up for the rampage. Jolly SD Lum 3 attacks Panda seems to be the most equipped for crushing stall teams atm, as it can ward off status, afford coverage for Fairies, and make itself harder to be outsped (eat dust, Garbo!), especially against other Pandas. Sure, Panda is nowhere near as dominating for offensive teams as it is for slower defensive / balance teams, but if the implication is that if the only thing holding Panda back against them is its speed, then it is only a matter of patching that up with team support in the form of Trick Room, Baton Pass, Sticky Web, or even Tailwind, as offensive teams are most certainly not equipped to deal with a speedy Panda, especially given the loss of the offensive Fairies. Panda's speed tier is perfect for abusing any form of speed control it can get (unlike MegaRupt, which hardly benefits from speed boosts), and can even lend a hand in Parting Shot to help facilitate that setup. I feel Panda is going to be waaaay easier to use than to prepare for: a low-risk, high-reward mon, if you will.
Mega Glalie
Let's look at Glalie from a surface level: Refrigerate Return hits 198.9 BP while Refrigerate Double-Edge hits 234 BP. Basically, that's a Pokemon with 120 Attack and 100 Speed throwing out Ice-typed Selfdestructs / Explosions repeatedly. Oh, and its own Explosion hits 487.5 BP, essentially pre-Gen 5 Explosion which wipes out practically any non-resistant Pokemon, like the good ol' days. It has access to Super Fang which takes advantage of the fact that most of its responses have no reliable recovery if at all, meaning Glalie can singlehandedly do the one thing most Ice-type sweepers only dream of doing: outlast its counters. It has coverage moves such as Freeze-Dry and Earthquake to pick off any hardy survivors that can withstand its onslaught if need be, plus it has Ice Shard to catch faster Pokemon, most of which are Flying-types. Did I mention it has Spikes too, and how it can (if it could) flip off any would-be hazard removers / blockers with its Refrigerated attacks + Freeze-Dry / Taunt?
So fuck Glalie forever, right? I can see why the majority would come to that conclusion in a heartbeat, but from both using and facing Mega Glalie, I found that it has its fair share of issues. Most notably, its 80 base speed, which still sets in on its Mega-Evolving turn. Given its poor defensive typing, Glalie most often tries to bypass its speed issue by killing something slower on its Mega Evolving turn. The problem is that most common slower Pokemon, such as Samurott, Ferroseed, Camerupt, Steelix, Hariyama, etc.... don't exactly present themselves as easy Mega Glalie bait, so Glalie still has some work to do. This also means that it is incredibly risky to lead with Glalie as there are numerous Pokemon that make Glalie's base speed look bad, and facing off against them pre-Mega is really bad news and costs a lot of momentum. This leads to my second gripe with Glalie: its hazard weakness. This is especially relevant for Double-Edging Glalie, but even Return variants (which rely more on Super Fang) dislike the notion of taking 25%, Super Fanging the switch, and taking yet another 25% the next time it comes back in. I mean sure, this does incentivise Exploding, but you usually want to hold off on that as long as is necessary. Finally, Mega Glalie can't hold any items. I know this seems like a very minor thing, but I am tired of seeing people say 'Mega Glalie's speed tier is so much better than Jynx's' or whatever, forgetting that Jynx can easily patch up that speed with a flashy whip of a scarf, and it means Glalie can't just go around spamming Scarf Refrigerate Double-Edges all over the damn place. What this means is that Mega Glalie is not incredibly hard to check with faster Pokemon (that aren't Ice weak), since it can't get any faster on its own and is fairly vulnerable to most forms of priority (if you're going to use my 'speedy Panda' argument, at least Panda can shrug off most priority and heal back with Drain Punch). That said, these points may not convince anyone (or even myself) that Mega Glalie is not too broken for NU since it can put all kinds of work against any team, but let's not pretend this thing is flawless (or nearly flawless).
Right so we all know how strong as shit MegaRupt is, though Specs Typhlosion's Eruption is still stronger so it is not like we aren't familiar to that level of firepower, but second best is still an impressive feat for MegaRupt. Sure, it can switch moves while maintaining its tremendous strength, but being slower than every Water-type in the tier (or indeed, most Pokemon in general) means its wallbreaking potential is actually lower than that of wallbreaking Fire-types such as Magmortar and Ninetales, since they can easily do a follow-up attack on the switch-in unlike MegaRupt. Basically, I don't see anything that would make MegaRupt that much harder to deal with than existing Fire-types; it combines most of their traits but ends up not being too specialized. If anything MegaRupt is a healthy presence for the meta, as it very easily punishes Will-O-Wisp users thanks to its typing and bulk, while also offering a Volt Switch + Trick immunity just in case it isn't clear enough that it wants Rotom shoved up its volcanic ass. People have been using it as a bulky Fire-type which is welcome since there aren't much / any outside of Flareon, and what it lacks in reliable recovery, it makes up for with its SR neutrality and ability to hit back hard without hurting itself.
This guy is way too good at its job. It singlehandedly warps any and all defensively-inclined teams in such a way that they must either all overprepare for it or don't bother trying. Its access to Swords Dance and powerful dual STABs allow it to threaten almost all of the bulkiest Pokemon in the tier, and from there it is just a matter of picking the right coverage move to beat what it needs to. It's not just the STABs that makes Panda potent; the moves themselves are what make Panda truly devastating: Knock Off removes items and cripples a large variety of defensive Pokemon, while Drain Punch gives Panda great sustain and often heals off any damage it takes while setting up for the rampage. Jolly SD Lum 3 attacks Panda seems to be the most equipped for crushing stall teams atm, as it can ward off status, afford coverage for Fairies, and make itself harder to be outsped (eat dust, Garbo!), especially against other Pandas. Sure, Panda is nowhere near as dominating for offensive teams as it is for slower defensive / balance teams, but if the implication is that if the only thing holding Panda back against them is its speed, then it is only a matter of patching that up with team support in the form of Trick Room, Baton Pass, Sticky Web, or even Tailwind, as offensive teams are most certainly not equipped to deal with a speedy Panda, especially given the loss of the offensive Fairies. Panda's speed tier is perfect for abusing any form of speed control it can get (unlike MegaRupt, which hardly benefits from speed boosts), and can even lend a hand in Parting Shot to help facilitate that setup. I feel Panda is going to be waaaay easier to use than to prepare for: a low-risk, high-reward mon, if you will.
Let's look at Glalie from a surface level: Refrigerate Return hits 198.9 BP while Refrigerate Double-Edge hits 234 BP. Basically, that's a Pokemon with 120 Attack and 100 Speed throwing out Ice-typed Selfdestructs / Explosions repeatedly. Oh, and its own Explosion hits 487.5 BP, essentially pre-Gen 5 Explosion which wipes out practically any non-resistant Pokemon, like the good ol' days. It has access to Super Fang which takes advantage of the fact that most of its responses have no reliable recovery if at all, meaning Glalie can singlehandedly do the one thing most Ice-type sweepers only dream of doing: outlast its counters. It has coverage moves such as Freeze-Dry and Earthquake to pick off any hardy survivors that can withstand its onslaught if need be, plus it has Ice Shard to catch faster Pokemon, most of which are Flying-types. Did I mention it has Spikes too, and how it can (if it could) flip off any would-be hazard removers / blockers with its Refrigerated attacks + Freeze-Dry / Taunt?
So fuck Glalie forever, right? I can see why the majority would come to that conclusion in a heartbeat, but from both using and facing Mega Glalie, I found that it has its fair share of issues. Most notably, its 80 base speed, which still sets in on its Mega-Evolving turn. Given its poor defensive typing, Glalie most often tries to bypass its speed issue by killing something slower on its Mega Evolving turn. The problem is that most common slower Pokemon, such as Samurott, Ferroseed, Camerupt, Steelix, Hariyama, etc.... don't exactly present themselves as easy Mega Glalie bait, so Glalie still has some work to do. This also means that it is incredibly risky to lead with Glalie as there are numerous Pokemon that make Glalie's base speed look bad, and facing off against them pre-Mega is really bad news and costs a lot of momentum. This leads to my second gripe with Glalie: its hazard weakness. This is especially relevant for Double-Edging Glalie, but even Return variants (which rely more on Super Fang) dislike the notion of taking 25%, Super Fanging the switch, and taking yet another 25% the next time it comes back in. I mean sure, this does incentivise Exploding, but you usually want to hold off on that as long as is necessary. Finally, Mega Glalie can't hold any items. I know this seems like a very minor thing, but I am tired of seeing people say 'Mega Glalie's speed tier is so much better than Jynx's' or whatever, forgetting that Jynx can easily patch up that speed with a flashy whip of a scarf, and it means Glalie can't just go around spamming Scarf Refrigerate Double-Edges all over the damn place. What this means is that Mega Glalie is not incredibly hard to check with faster Pokemon (that aren't Ice weak), since it can't get any faster on its own and is fairly vulnerable to most forms of priority (if you're going to use my 'speedy Panda' argument, at least Panda can shrug off most priority and heal back with Drain Punch). That said, these points may not convince anyone (or even myself) that Mega Glalie is not too broken for NU since it can put all kinds of work against any team, but let's not pretend this thing is flawless (or nearly flawless).
Well i guess a rare teddeh thought can be added to this since it'll be affecting me;
The question that i'm asking myself when writing this is "will the meta be more balanced if they were here or gone?" so i guess i'll shape a few points together and give a few points and opinions.
Mega-glalie; Well as much as i don't think this mon is "broken", i do however think it might just be a little too good for NU and I am using it wrongly with the wrong team support, even though on balance used as a wallbreaker it was still very good. It does have some obvious limitations, but if you're able to maintain enough offensive pressure for certain teams, it can easily destroy by preventing hazards as ice typing beats a lot of common hazard setters such as rhydon, seismitoad, sandslash, heck even mesprit gets 2 hit ko'd by a double edge from this monster. The only mon that can set up rocks against it is steelix, but not every team can afford to run a steelix to check it and get up hazards reliably. With that being said, I do perhaps agree in it being very centralizing for teams to have something to stop this monster. It's not the perfect mon by any means because of its ice typing and weakness to stealth rock, however again do i think it would be better for nu to keep it here or to send it away, especially with SPL coming up? I think i'm leaning towards banning mega-glalie because I feel that it would be healthy for the meta if we banned him and then retested, i feel it would improve the NU metagame as it is very hard to stop, much unlike any other physical wallbreaker that is limited to running a choiced item to wall break, i.e sawk for example.
Pangoro; now this mon is perhaps the bane of my existance when it comes to building balance that I thought that I would try and test it out myself. The results are quite simply outstanding, i could lead with the mon and simply just punch holes in teams with little effort required. It has such raw power that you can run a life orb and wall break very effectively with awesome typing that just simply destroys teams and forces switches easily which allows easy opportunities for subs, swords dances, knock offs and it is all maintained at a very healthy amount of hp to continue the sweep due to being given drain punch meaning you can run life orb and be happy with the results. Now this panda completely dominates balance, stall and can even be useful on and against most offensive teams to get 1 or 2 kills easily with little effort as it has versatility with band or setup variants, could even run scarf which isn't the best set but still can take offensive teams and get a few kills while keeping momentum with parting shots also. In general this panda is really good right now as there aren't many relevant fairy types in NU since creampuff is gone that it has meant that teams are reliant on poison types to deal with this monster, however not even poison types can do it since they don't appreciate a STAB knock off coming from an adamant base 124 attack with probably a boost from life orb or even choice band that makes easy 2 hit kos after rocks. Heck, even fairies can be dealt with if you run gunk shot on this panda, meaning that it is extremely effective and hard to beat at all with no counters, hence meaning the way to deal with it is to sack mons or predict like a god and pivot riskily. When i say riskily, it's easy to make predictions with panda since knock off is a spamable stab along with gunk shot being very powerful, meaning people aren't afraid to click it and make predictions because it will still hit like a truck nonetheless. Now I know I've been very biased towards panda from a balanced team pov, that's because i play balance and can see how it is used on and against this playstyle, which is the most common playstyle in NU. I feel that panda is quite simply very easy to run and get effective results using it since it requires little effort... Anything slower than this panda is 9 times out of 10 going to lose and i feel it's too good for NU as Punchshroom mentioned it has ways to deal with its speed issues with tailwind, bp, webs etc etc. Hence I am going to lean towards a ban for panda.
Mega-camel; i don't think it's broken, i've written enough about the other 2 and on previous posts, i'll stop talking now
The question that i'm asking myself when writing this is "will the meta be more balanced if they were here or gone?" so i guess i'll shape a few points together and give a few points and opinions.
Mega-glalie; Well as much as i don't think this mon is "broken", i do however think it might just be a little too good for NU and I am using it wrongly with the wrong team support, even though on balance used as a wallbreaker it was still very good. It does have some obvious limitations, but if you're able to maintain enough offensive pressure for certain teams, it can easily destroy by preventing hazards as ice typing beats a lot of common hazard setters such as rhydon, seismitoad, sandslash, heck even mesprit gets 2 hit ko'd by a double edge from this monster. The only mon that can set up rocks against it is steelix, but not every team can afford to run a steelix to check it and get up hazards reliably. With that being said, I do perhaps agree in it being very centralizing for teams to have something to stop this monster. It's not the perfect mon by any means because of its ice typing and weakness to stealth rock, however again do i think it would be better for nu to keep it here or to send it away, especially with SPL coming up? I think i'm leaning towards banning mega-glalie because I feel that it would be healthy for the meta if we banned him and then retested, i feel it would improve the NU metagame as it is very hard to stop, much unlike any other physical wallbreaker that is limited to running a choiced item to wall break, i.e sawk for example.
Pangoro; now this mon is perhaps the bane of my existance when it comes to building balance that I thought that I would try and test it out myself. The results are quite simply outstanding, i could lead with the mon and simply just punch holes in teams with little effort required. It has such raw power that you can run a life orb and wall break very effectively with awesome typing that just simply destroys teams and forces switches easily which allows easy opportunities for subs, swords dances, knock offs and it is all maintained at a very healthy amount of hp to continue the sweep due to being given drain punch meaning you can run life orb and be happy with the results. Now this panda completely dominates balance, stall and can even be useful on and against most offensive teams to get 1 or 2 kills easily with little effort as it has versatility with band or setup variants, could even run scarf which isn't the best set but still can take offensive teams and get a few kills while keeping momentum with parting shots also. In general this panda is really good right now as there aren't many relevant fairy types in NU since creampuff is gone that it has meant that teams are reliant on poison types to deal with this monster, however not even poison types can do it since they don't appreciate a STAB knock off coming from an adamant base 124 attack with probably a boost from life orb or even choice band that makes easy 2 hit kos after rocks. Heck, even fairies can be dealt with if you run gunk shot on this panda, meaning that it is extremely effective and hard to beat at all with no counters, hence meaning the way to deal with it is to sack mons or predict like a god and pivot riskily. When i say riskily, it's easy to make predictions with panda since knock off is a spamable stab along with gunk shot being very powerful, meaning people aren't afraid to click it and make predictions because it will still hit like a truck nonetheless. Now I know I've been very biased towards panda from a balanced team pov, that's because i play balance and can see how it is used on and against this playstyle, which is the most common playstyle in NU. I feel that panda is quite simply very easy to run and get effective results using it since it requires little effort... Anything slower than this panda is 9 times out of 10 going to lose and i feel it's too good for NU as Punchshroom mentioned it has ways to deal with its speed issues with tailwind, bp, webs etc etc. Hence I am going to lean towards a ban for panda.
Mega-camel; i don't think it's broken, i've written enough about the other 2 and on previous posts, i'll stop talking now
I hope to write about all the suggested quick bans, I would start with Mega-Glalie. Briefly, I think it's broken. Despite its hazard weakness and not so good speed, it's impossible ignoring its strength: Refrigerate/Normal Attack plus Super Fang, Earthquake and Explosion to wipe out easily what is crucial for opponent team, deleting what is basic to gain a decisive advantage vs opponent. What about checkers/counter? Well, i want to make a reference to this thread: it has some hard/solid ckeckers but not really counter. If I remember well the broken statement, it fits like a glove with Mega-Glalie. It's broken, I find it very unhealthy for the metagame due to its overwhelming offensive power, winning a match with it has no real sense of accomplishment because anyone can do that and it requires little effort. So I think it's annoying to play with it. My little cent is for its quick ban.
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Don't have any opinion on Meglalie or THE PANDA, but I'll share my opinions on Mega Camel.
(Also, The Quasar, when you say Ice Fang, do you mean Super Fang)
While this may seem broken on paper, with sky-high attack (by NU standards), and decent bulk, honestly it can be underwhelming, with low Speed and a crappy typing, especially in a tier where some common Pokemon are those types. Some of the things people run to try to check Mega Glalie, like the hyping up Prinplup had post-Megas (I mean Bee/Drag/Puff/Tile/Lop/etc. meta), spills into Mega-Camerupt's efficiency. While Sheer Force lets it wallbreak well, it also has its downsides, such as the Mega slot (which lets you not use Glalie/Steelix in the first place) which lets it not hold LO, as well as getting rid of the burn chance, which you have to give up a moveslot for if you want to be able to cripple mons using WoW.
(Also, The Quasar, when you say Ice Fang, do you mean Super Fang)
While this may seem broken on paper, with sky-high attack (by NU standards), and decent bulk, honestly it can be underwhelming, with low Speed and a crappy typing, especially in a tier where some common Pokemon are those types. Some of the things people run to try to check Mega Glalie, like the hyping up Prinplup had post-Megas (I mean Bee/Drag/Puff/Tile/Lop/etc. meta), spills into Mega-Camerupt's efficiency. While Sheer Force lets it wallbreak well, it also has its downsides, such as the Mega slot (which lets you not use Glalie/Steelix in the first place) which lets it not hold LO, as well as getting rid of the burn chance, which you have to give up a moveslot for if you want to be able to cripple mons using WoW.
Thanks cooldude_dude, fixed.
While I agree with the first sentence that states that Mega Camerupt can be a bit underwhelming, I disagree with the rest of what you said and your reasons for saying it. It really doesn't have a crappy typing, it lets it switch in on a multitude of defensive walls that can't do jack shit back to it, for reference Ferroseed, Granbull (Granbull can EQ but T-wave and Playrough do nothing), Vileplume, Weezing, Xatu, Uxie, Garbodor are all mons that Mega Rupt can get a free switch in on (there are probably some more that I didn't think of off the top of my head). You shouldn't be running Mega Camerupt to check Mega Glalie lol, that just doesn't make sense, you should be running offensive variants to destroy balance / stall teams and specially defensive rest talk variants as a fire type check. Honestly the mega slot is really a w/e, there are only a few megas to choose from and not all of them fit on every team (also it gets boring using the same mega over and over again lol). So as demonstrated below, it doesn't need a life orb, Sheer Force plus the raise to its stats increases the damage output by a great deal and on top of that you don't even lose any health from a Life Orb. Next up is the chance to burn, the chance is already incredibly small on Fire Blast that if you're relying on it to get burns for you, you're doing it wrong. Lastly you are saying it needs to give up a moveslot to be able to cripple things with Will-O-Wisp, but lets be real here; Mega Camerupt only really needs Fire Blast / Flamethrower and Earth Power to be able to do its job. The last two slots are fillers depending on what you want it to do, meaning you can run Will-O-Wisp, Rock Slide, a Hidden Power, or Stealth Rock. If you already have a Stealth Rock Pokemon then you pretty much have the free slot for Will-O-Wisp.
Mega Camerupt:
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 207-244 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Life Orb Camerupt:
252+ SpA Life Orb Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 165-195 (38.9 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
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