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np: Doubles Stage 1 — Dragontown — Salamencite Suspect Discussion IT'S BANNED
- Thread starter Stratos
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Actually, you really do need to take out Mence in one shot. If you can't, it will proceed to kill your Ice Beam user, and possibly the rest of your team after that. Stealth Rock is also not the most common thing in the fast-paced Doubles metagame, unless you're running a stally team, which in and of itself is not very common either. Moreover, the sight of Pixilate Quick Attack on any Sylveon makes me cringe. It's very gimmicky and situational, and Sylvy has better attacks to be using anyways, like HP Ground for Heatran, or Psyshock for Amoonguss. Also, while field effects are admittedly a great way to deal with Mega Mence, "just use Trick Room or Rain" isn't really a legit reason to keep Mence. Finally, most Fairies are frail as fuck, and why are you using Heatran on a rain team? Ferrothorn is the better SR user on a rain team if you absolutely need hazards, and Tran gets wrecked if Mence is carrying Earthquake, which it carries very often.
From a total 'theorymon' standpoint, I thought Salamencite was going to be totally fine in Doubles. On paper, Salamence is easily beaten by common threats like Rotom-W, Thundurus, bulky waters and fairies.
However, in practice Salamence + Partner can actually handle most of these kinds of Pokemon with ease. Most are 2HKOd, and because mence is so fast, wont get the opportunity to switch in to an attack. Salamence has a vast movepool, obviously it can't run all it's sets at once but, it can easily run Facade over Return to help it beat things relying on Will-o-Wisp.
I believe the easiest way to 'break' Salamence is to run it with a Pokemon which can redirect moves as this enables Salamence to be able to use moves like Dragon Dance or Substitute (or both) with ease. Once Salamence has reached this state, it can easily pick off two or three mons.
Some posters have raised the issue of Salamences weaknesses. It is important to bear in mind Salamence can easily retreat and wait in the back until these threatening Pokemon have taken damage/been statused/KOd. All of Salamence's weaknesses are resisted by a Steel-type Pokemon so stacking a few of these make it easy to handle any would be checks and counters.
TL;DR mega salamence is a really fucking strong mon which with team support can set up pretty easily it is also able too kills it's checks because of it's massive move pool and is an unhealthy addition to the meta.
However, in practice Salamence + Partner can actually handle most of these kinds of Pokemon with ease. Most are 2HKOd, and because mence is so fast, wont get the opportunity to switch in to an attack. Salamence has a vast movepool, obviously it can't run all it's sets at once but, it can easily run Facade over Return to help it beat things relying on Will-o-Wisp.
I believe the easiest way to 'break' Salamence is to run it with a Pokemon which can redirect moves as this enables Salamence to be able to use moves like Dragon Dance or Substitute (or both) with ease. Once Salamence has reached this state, it can easily pick off two or three mons.
Some posters have raised the issue of Salamences weaknesses. It is important to bear in mind Salamence can easily retreat and wait in the back until these threatening Pokemon have taken damage/been statused/KOd. All of Salamence's weaknesses are resisted by a Steel-type Pokemon so stacking a few of these make it easy to handle any would be checks and counters.
TL;DR mega salamence is a really fucking strong mon which with team support can set up pretty easily it is also able too kills it's checks because of it's massive move pool and is an unhealthy addition to the meta.
Now that i finally got reqs i have decided to post my opinion. Ban it. Mega salamence is way too, as people have said, overcentralizing and just plain broken. Much of the stuff that kept mega kanga in the tier: (general) lack of versatility, slightly too little speed, attack control etc. does not apply to salamence. It has loads of physical sets and a (subpar imo) special set. It has substitute and reliable recovery in roost to protect against intimidate and burns. It has a stupid speed stat as well, outspeeding nearly every relevant threat in dubs. All of this is on top of the incredible bulk and attack.
Personally, i think any set with roost on it is a winner. Be it dd roost, subroost, or just roost, being able to heal itself reliably, while removing half its ice weakness and its rock weakness with no drawbacks is so good. One turn to recover is all salamence needs to stay in the game for 3/4 more turns, which is a lot.
I think the biggest issue with salamence is the way it forces certain playstyles to be run and forces you to carry silly counters to not lose. With kanga, you needed to acknowledge it and have a way to beat it, but these checks were quite common already (pony and rock dog, lando t, ghosts). I mean, when did zapdos become even remotely popular, and when did porygon2 become a real tr setter? These pokes were virtually never used before ORAS, but are much more common on their specific playstyles now because they work well against salamence. This is not how it should be, sticking ice beam and a scarf on random pokes to check salamence. And this is all hoping it doesnt get a dd.
Dont get me wrong, innovation can be healthy (not in this case), but restricting playstyles is not ok. Sun teams are wrecked by dd mence (+1 timid mence hits 558, modest max speed venusaur hits 518). Rain teams are an easy dd for mence and then it outspeeds your swift swimmer (bar kingdra, but its not amazing) and wins. Semi tailwind and tr are asking for trouble because yes they may carry a check or two, but middling speed pokes do not work. You want to either outspeed it fully or outslow it fully, not do both. Sand is generally ass and your average goodstuff teams are slapped silly. This isnt to say all these playstyles are unviable, but they sure as hell have a tough time vs salamence.
One last thing i wanna add:
Personally, i think any set with roost on it is a winner. Be it dd roost, subroost, or just roost, being able to heal itself reliably, while removing half its ice weakness and its rock weakness with no drawbacks is so good. One turn to recover is all salamence needs to stay in the game for 3/4 more turns, which is a lot.
I think the biggest issue with salamence is the way it forces certain playstyles to be run and forces you to carry silly counters to not lose. With kanga, you needed to acknowledge it and have a way to beat it, but these checks were quite common already (pony and rock dog, lando t, ghosts). I mean, when did zapdos become even remotely popular, and when did porygon2 become a real tr setter? These pokes were virtually never used before ORAS, but are much more common on their specific playstyles now because they work well against salamence. This is not how it should be, sticking ice beam and a scarf on random pokes to check salamence. And this is all hoping it doesnt get a dd.
Dont get me wrong, innovation can be healthy (not in this case), but restricting playstyles is not ok. Sun teams are wrecked by dd mence (+1 timid mence hits 558, modest max speed venusaur hits 518). Rain teams are an easy dd for mence and then it outspeeds your swift swimmer (bar kingdra, but its not amazing) and wins. Semi tailwind and tr are asking for trouble because yes they may carry a check or two, but middling speed pokes do not work. You want to either outspeed it fully or outslow it fully, not do both. Sand is generally ass and your average goodstuff teams are slapped silly. This isnt to say all these playstyles are unviable, but they sure as hell have a tough time vs salamence.
One last thing i wanna add:
Ive heard/read this from a few people now. While true, redirection aids salamence greatly, if we apply the idea of 'redirection breaks salamence' to other pokes, kanga would be banned because it gets a free PuP and wins. I dont think that can be used as an argument for banning it.
One argument against banning Mega Salamence is that redirection+powerful sweeper has always been a strong strategy. However, Salamence is better than things like Azumarill and Kangaskhan for a couple of reasons:
1. Salamence's speed: 120 Base Speed is already fast but Mega Salamence can use Dragon Dance to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame and most Choice Scarfers as well. Azumarill and Mega Kangaskhan need to rely on weak or unSTAB'd priority, repectively, which can easily be resisted by common Pokemon that outspeed them (Grass-types can hit Azumarill back with Giga Drain, Fighting-types resist Sucker Punch and kill Kangaskhan with a STAB move).
2. Salamence's bulk: 248 HP Mega Salamence is more than twice as physically bulky as 164 HP Azumarill (after Belly Drum and Sitrus), 50% more physically bulky than it, 40% more physically bulky than 4 HP Mega Kanga, and slightly more specially bulky than it. And that's not even considering Intimidate before it megas. Salamence is also the only one of the three with a reliable means of recovery.
3. Salamence's type: While Sala has 4 weakness including a double weakness, Rock is the only type that both resists Flying and hits Salamence SE. This means most Pokemon are either going to have to take a neutral +1 Return or have to use a non-STAB attack to kill Salamence. Grass and Poison Pokemon can resist both of Azumarill's STABs and fire back with a STAB SE attack from both of their types. Normal isn't that great of a type, anyway, even with Kangaskhan's good coverage options.
1. Salamence's speed: 120 Base Speed is already fast but Mega Salamence can use Dragon Dance to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame and most Choice Scarfers as well. Azumarill and Mega Kangaskhan need to rely on weak or unSTAB'd priority, repectively, which can easily be resisted by common Pokemon that outspeed them (Grass-types can hit Azumarill back with Giga Drain, Fighting-types resist Sucker Punch and kill Kangaskhan with a STAB move).
2. Salamence's bulk: 248 HP Mega Salamence is more than twice as physically bulky as 164 HP Azumarill (after Belly Drum and Sitrus), 50% more physically bulky than it, 40% more physically bulky than 4 HP Mega Kanga, and slightly more specially bulky than it. And that's not even considering Intimidate before it megas. Salamence is also the only one of the three with a reliable means of recovery.
3. Salamence's type: While Sala has 4 weakness including a double weakness, Rock is the only type that both resists Flying and hits Salamence SE. This means most Pokemon are either going to have to take a neutral +1 Return or have to use a non-STAB attack to kill Salamence. Grass and Poison Pokemon can resist both of Azumarill's STABs and fire back with a STAB SE attack from both of their types. Normal isn't that great of a type, anyway, even with Kangaskhan's good coverage options.
How salamence preforms in the meta as opposed to azumarill is not valid to this at all. The last post on this thread literally said the exact same thing you just did in a sentence.
After playing 50+ games on each Doubles ladder, I can confidently say that Mega-Salamence is not over-centralizing and does not need to be banned.
1. If Mega-Salamence was over-centralizing, it would be the common choice for a player's Mega-Evolution, but it's not; Mega-Kangaskhan still rules Doubles. Neither the experienced players nor the lower ladder commonly use Mega-Salamence. It's as if there is no difference between the suspect ladder and the current ladder; that's how uncommon Mega-Salamence is.
2. Even if you were to come across a team with MegaMence, it isn't that hard to stop. For example, I can easily T-Wave with Prankster Thundurus to cripple it and allow my team to have the speed advantage. My sweepers will then proceed to take out Salamence for a smooth victory, GG. Tailwind is also a viable option if you want your whole team to have the speed advantage against the other mons along with Salamence (Suicune, Talonflame, etc.) Mega-Salamence's true strength is outspeeding its opponents and dealing a significant amount of damage, but once you take that away, it isn't that much of a threat. By the way, Jirachi + MegaMence leads can be shut down by Fake Out + Tailwind or T-Wave, just saying.
tl;dr - MegaMence is a strong mon, but by no means over-centralizing. Don't just ban stuff because you can't beat it; it's not even that hard to take out.
1. If Mega-Salamence was over-centralizing, it would be the common choice for a player's Mega-Evolution, but it's not; Mega-Kangaskhan still rules Doubles. Neither the experienced players nor the lower ladder commonly use Mega-Salamence. It's as if there is no difference between the suspect ladder and the current ladder; that's how uncommon Mega-Salamence is.
2. Even if you were to come across a team with MegaMence, it isn't that hard to stop. For example, I can easily T-Wave with Prankster Thundurus to cripple it and allow my team to have the speed advantage. My sweepers will then proceed to take out Salamence for a smooth victory, GG. Tailwind is also a viable option if you want your whole team to have the speed advantage against the other mons along with Salamence (Suicune, Talonflame, etc.) Mega-Salamence's true strength is outspeeding its opponents and dealing a significant amount of damage, but once you take that away, it isn't that much of a threat. By the way, Jirachi + MegaMence leads can be shut down by Fake Out + Tailwind or T-Wave, just saying.
tl;dr - MegaMence is a strong mon, but by no means over-centralizing. Don't just ban stuff because you can't beat it; it's not even that hard to take out.
Moreover, though the ways you listed are legitimate ways to beat Mega Mence, the fact that something has checks and counters doesn't mean it's not broken. Pokémon like Genesect and Aegislash had their fair share of reliable checks and counters: most Fire-types for Genesect, and Bisharp for Aegislash, for instance. Even if you're trying to get the speed jump on Mega Mence, taking it out is a different story. With Intimidate and some solid 95/130/90 bulk, it isn't as easy to take down as you might think. And no, just because most Ice Beam users OHKO it does not mean it should stay, as Mence can threaten them right back, reducing them to mere checks instead of counters. (You'll notice this in the calcs that are present throughout this thread.) Additionally, Jirachi + Mence doesn't always have to lead- we have Team Preview to determine when they should come in. If you think that Mega Mence shouldn't be banned, then your opponents were probably using it incorrectly. That's the problem with these suspect ladders; most ladder players are shit, it has to be said.
Edit: Please disregard this post. If any parts of it came across as condescending, it wasn't my intention at all.
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ayy lmao it's like condescending the other side will get you anywhere. +1 Salamence outspeeds a lot of threats at +2 (tailwind), so that part of your argument is moot. And people shouldn't lead with Jirachi / Mence. It's analogous to leading with a sweeper turn 1 in singles and 'hoping for a sweep.' Yes if it happens that's great but you woulda won anyways if you were to just win off of that. Forcing them into something that gives Salamence free turns, sacking it into them, and getting to work is much harder to stop. If Mence were to be broken, it's because of the extra teamslots you have in 6v6 over 4v4, allowing you to keep mence indefinitely until you force a good matchup and winning the game there. You still have to lead off with your anti-Salamence because you don't want them to get the better matchup turn 1 and wreck, but now you have to preserve your Thundurus or whatever you're using to check Mence out of turn 1 which further puts pressure on you.
I agree that I'm still not convinced that Salamence passes that critical mass that pushes it beyond 'a good mon like Kangaskhan' and more of 'wtf gamefreak.' But accusing everyone who doesn't agree with you of being a scrub who whines 'must ban' on stuff they can't beat isn't exactly right, lol.
I'll say
Technically true although it is a very strong indicator.
yes it does. If there are a "decent" number (there isnt an exact value) of reliable counters (which there are) and they are viable in the metagame in ways besides countering mence than ofc it wouldn't be broken.
Bulky Ice users liek Suicune, Thundurus, and Shuca TTar are counters BECAUSE they can take hits from mence. "It isn't as easy to take down as you might think" it condescending as fuck, and mence is as-easy-to-take-down-as-you-might-think because EVing to OHKO mence is not large stretch for a lot of Pokemon.
This is the main problem I have with this post (and a lot of the other posts on here). Is this like the go-to-argument for the pro-ban side? I have seen "Well if you dont think its broken you clearly havent played good players or you yourself are shit" so many times (although I am paraphrasing here) and it just isn't true. The ladder isnt a complete cesspool of bumbling idiots when you actually climb a decent amount, and you can't simply write off people's arguements like this.
Calling each others posts and arguements "cringe-worthy" and dismissing entire posts and well intentioned/thought out arguements on the basis that you don't think that the people they played against are up to your elite god like standards makes you an edit: bad person. If you disagree give a reason.
To back up what I said about there being a "Decent" number of counters, here are a list of Pokemon in the S->B+ viability rankings that beat standard (flying + Dragon STAB) Mega Mence with standard (or at least not uncommon) sets 1v1.
btw so many of you are making arguments based on +1 Return calcs, mence doensn't automatically switch in with +1 if you havent noticed, and it isn't this amazingly easy thing to just click the dd button and sweep, try it.
1. Standard Kanga or Ice Punch (if you don't think this is good or used play Pinoy)
2. Stone Edge Lando (with scarf and if you come in on it after it Megas, yeah a little shaky lol)
3. Thundurus
4. Aegislash (loses to the EQ variants only ever seen on posts and not in game)
5. Azumarill
6. Ice Fang Gyara
7. Scarf Draco Meteor on anything that gets it that isn't dragalge (if you argue this and list jirachi ill kill you)
8. Mawile (If you have Fire Blast and EQ and drop DD you start losing to a lot more than what I've listed)
9. Shuca TTar (they carry Ice Beam)
10. Kyurem B
11. Scarf Genesect
12. Ludicolo and Swampert in the rain
13. Sylveon
14. Scarf HP Ice Heattom (this isn't all that uncommon? I've seen this plenty before and since mence)
15. Suicune
Yes redirection exists and not all of these are full counters and many of them can't just switch into mence, but the point is that answers to mence DO EXIST and claiming they don't is just factually wrong. Also the list of Pokemon that Salamence cannot switch in on to just "get intimidate and set up and win" as some posts claim is a LOT longer than this. The reason I posted this is to show that your teambuilding is not limited in any way by mence, mence is just one more thing you need to take into account when building like you would account for Rain Sweepers or Kangaskhan or Heatran.
The main take away isnt that I don't think you shouldn't ban mence btw, I haven't finished reqs yet (although I am probably a no ban) the point is to not just write off arguments or base yours on throwing around buzzwords like "overcentralized", "ladder is shit", etc. Back up your points
edit: as an aside running quick attack on special sylveon is actually legit, try it out
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Other then kyle's post, which was well put and laid out the facts quite well, you can't just compare this tier to ou at all. This is the farthest you can get from that and checks/counters as well as play styles aren't the same at all. Please at least use doubles examples.
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 320-380 (96.3 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 368-436 (110.8 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I call it as I see it, something that outspeeds and OHKOs looks a lot like a check to me?
All these calcs assume 252/84/172 Adamant Mega Salamence with DD/Return/Roost/Protect:
In depth info:
1. Salamence can potentially set up in Kangaskhan's face if it's feeling lucky thanks to Intimidate. -1 Ice Punch + Sucker Punch isn't a guarenteed KO while +1 Return has a very good chance of getting a KO back. If Kangaskhan has taken any damage before switching in, it'll die.
2. Salamence will outspeed any Landorus-T after a DD and 2HKO it factoring in Intimidate while Landorus can't OHKO it back.
3. Thundurus works well since it has a good chance of coming out on top and can use priority Thunder Wave as well. However, Salamence can Roost against bulkier versions' HP Ices and offensive ones could potentially go down to their LO recoil as they attack.
4. It's a King's Shield prediction war. Salamence needs to attack Blade Forme if it tries to attack again or DD if it uses King's Shield. Roost is a safe option either way.
5. Azumarill will get killed by +1 Return.
6. I didn't check every EV spread Gyarados can run, but 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Def Adamant Gyarados is 2HKO'd after a DD and Intimidate and can't OHKO back with Ice Fang. Salamence can actually come in and Intimidate it, set up a DD in its face, and then OHKO it. If they come in at the same time and Intimidate each other, Salamence could just set up 2 first before attacking.
7. Special Dragon-types can certainly OHKO it, but physical ones cannot. Garchomp only has a 6.3% chance to OHKO with Draco Meteor and only if it runs max SpAtk. Hydreigon and Latios will need to run Timid to outspeed Salamence at +1 and if it decides to go with max Speed and Adamant, neither Hydreigon or Garchomp can outspeed it at +1.
8. Mawile is probably the best answer to this thing.
9. Tyranitar can counter this set but Earthquake has a good chance of 2HKOing through Shuca Berry while Ice Beam can't OHKO back. Roost can also keep Salamence alive to stall out Ice Beam PP.
10. Offensive Kyurem-B will almost certainly die.
11. Genesect will OHKO with Ice Beam but needs Timid to outspeed this set at +1. If Salamence runs max Speed, Genesect will be outsped.
12. This set was designed to outspeed Modest Ludicolo and Adamant Mega Swampert in the Rain at +1. Swampert can take the hit but won't even have a chance to OHKO back unless it runs a crazy amount of SpAtk. They both need +Spe Natures if they want to have a chance at taking Salamence out.
13. Sylveon is OHKO'd by Return and would have to run Timid and be in Tailwind to outspeed Mence. If Salamence put 8 more EVs into Speed, even Timid Sylveon wouldn't be able outrun it.
Now this is assuming all these Pokemon switch in while Salamence uses DD, which is actually very easy since Intimidate will force out pretty much every physical attacker and it's not too hard to sack 2 Pokemon to get Mence and your redirecter in at the same time.
1. +1 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 346-408 (98.2 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 282-336 (71.5 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 75-88 (19 - 22.3%) -- possible 5HKO
2. 252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 253-298 (66.2 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 310-366 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
3. +1 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 212 HP / 128 Def Thundurus: 195-231 (55.3 - 65.6%) -- possible 2HKO with Sitrus
52+ SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 264-312 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 230-271 (76.9 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 364-432 (92.3 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
4. +1 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 121-143 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 300-353 (92.5 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO
5. +1 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 414-487 (102.4 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
6. 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 280-330 (71 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 244-288 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 164-196 (41.6 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 418-493 (106 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
7. 252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 452-534 (114.7 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 464-548 (117.7 - 139%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 336-396 (85.2 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 210-248 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8. (Already know this counters Mega Mence)
9. +1 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 159-188 (39.3 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Tyranitar Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 272-324 (69 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
10. +1 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 384-453 (98.2 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
11. 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 408-480 (103.5 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
12. +1 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Swampert: 319-376 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+1 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Swampert: 319-376 (78.9 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 320-380 (81.2 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Swampert Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 272-324 (69 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Swampert Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 348-412 (88.3 - 104.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 336-396 (85.2 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
13. +1 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 492-579 (124.8 - 146.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 282-336 (71.5 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 75-88 (19 - 22.3%) -- possible 5HKO
2. 252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 253-298 (66.2 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 310-366 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
3. +1 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 212 HP / 128 Def Thundurus: 195-231 (55.3 - 65.6%) -- possible 2HKO with Sitrus
52+ SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 264-312 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 230-271 (76.9 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 364-432 (92.3 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
4. +1 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 121-143 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 300-353 (92.5 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO
5. +1 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 414-487 (102.4 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
6. 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 280-330 (71 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 244-288 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 164-196 (41.6 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 418-493 (106 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
7. 252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 452-534 (114.7 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 464-548 (117.7 - 139%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 336-396 (85.2 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 210-248 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8. (Already know this counters Mega Mence)
9. +1 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 159-188 (39.3 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Tyranitar Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 272-324 (69 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
10. +1 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 384-453 (98.2 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
11. 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 408-480 (103.5 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
12. +1 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Swampert: 319-376 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+1 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Swampert: 319-376 (78.9 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 320-380 (81.2 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Swampert Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 272-324 (69 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Swampert Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 348-412 (88.3 - 104.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 336-396 (85.2 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
13. +1 84+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 492-579 (124.8 - 146.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In depth info:
1. Salamence can potentially set up in Kangaskhan's face if it's feeling lucky thanks to Intimidate. -1 Ice Punch + Sucker Punch isn't a guarenteed KO while +1 Return has a very good chance of getting a KO back. If Kangaskhan has taken any damage before switching in, it'll die.
2. Salamence will outspeed any Landorus-T after a DD and 2HKO it factoring in Intimidate while Landorus can't OHKO it back.
3. Thundurus works well since it has a good chance of coming out on top and can use priority Thunder Wave as well. However, Salamence can Roost against bulkier versions' HP Ices and offensive ones could potentially go down to their LO recoil as they attack.
4. It's a King's Shield prediction war. Salamence needs to attack Blade Forme if it tries to attack again or DD if it uses King's Shield. Roost is a safe option either way.
5. Azumarill will get killed by +1 Return.
6. I didn't check every EV spread Gyarados can run, but 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Def Adamant Gyarados is 2HKO'd after a DD and Intimidate and can't OHKO back with Ice Fang. Salamence can actually come in and Intimidate it, set up a DD in its face, and then OHKO it. If they come in at the same time and Intimidate each other, Salamence could just set up 2 first before attacking.
7. Special Dragon-types can certainly OHKO it, but physical ones cannot. Garchomp only has a 6.3% chance to OHKO with Draco Meteor and only if it runs max SpAtk. Hydreigon and Latios will need to run Timid to outspeed Salamence at +1 and if it decides to go with max Speed and Adamant, neither Hydreigon or Garchomp can outspeed it at +1.
8. Mawile is probably the best answer to this thing.
9. Tyranitar can counter this set but Earthquake has a good chance of 2HKOing through Shuca Berry while Ice Beam can't OHKO back. Roost can also keep Salamence alive to stall out Ice Beam PP.
10. Offensive Kyurem-B will almost certainly die.
11. Genesect will OHKO with Ice Beam but needs Timid to outspeed this set at +1. If Salamence runs max Speed, Genesect will be outsped.
12. This set was designed to outspeed Modest Ludicolo and Adamant Mega Swampert in the Rain at +1. Swampert can take the hit but won't even have a chance to OHKO back unless it runs a crazy amount of SpAtk. They both need +Spe Natures if they want to have a chance at taking Salamence out.
13. Sylveon is OHKO'd by Return and would have to run Timid and be in Tailwind to outspeed Mence. If Salamence put 8 more EVs into Speed, even Timid Sylveon wouldn't be able outrun it.
Now this is assuming all these Pokemon switch in while Salamence uses DD, which is actually very easy since Intimidate will force out pretty much every physical attacker and it's not too hard to sack 2 Pokemon to get Mence and your redirecter in at the same time.
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A lot of these START with +1 mence so there's that
All of them don't take into account that Salamence can be intimidated by the mon you're calcing against
Kyurem and Sylveon both live a hit from Mence with minimal investment
I would just like to remind everyone that Salamence doesn't enter the game at +1, nor does it keep intimidate the entire game (although the second point is less relevant for calcs as it is for actually thinking about how to play around Mence)
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I don't have recs yet (will soon), but from what I've played so far, I'm anti-ban. Here are 10 reasons why I am against ban. Some arguments are stronger than others, and they go in no particular order
1) While it has few hard counters (sets that can counter after a boost), Salamence has many checks from all over the spectrum of roles. Just adding to kale's list, Jirachi can counter Mence with follow me so a partner can check it, Togekiss can do the same, although a boosted double-edge will probably OHKO or 2HKO.
2) It doesn't switch in and instantly be at +1 or +2
3) WoW and Intimidate are always common, and physical sets don't like them
4) It has 4MMS. I've seen so many argument saying "fire blast varients" or "Aqua Tail Variants", or varients with EQ, or Hydro Pump, or special attacking ones. It can't do anything at once
5) ANYTHING can be broken with enough boosts / follow me support. We should ban everything that can boost it's own stats if your that worried.
6) The meta is really prepared for it right now
7) Strong =/= Broken
8) It has common weaknesses
9) It is very susceptible to speed control. Tail Wind and TR both can halt sweeps if timed right, as many checks become counters now that they outspeed.
10) Saying "I need to run this or I loose" is a bad argument. In XY, you needed a strong fighting attack to check or counter Kang, and you needed a strong ice attack to check Landoge. If you didn't run those, then say GG from team preview. If that didn't mean broken with the 2 strongest mons last gen, then it may not be broke this gen
1) While it has few hard counters (sets that can counter after a boost), Salamence has many checks from all over the spectrum of roles. Just adding to kale's list, Jirachi can counter Mence with follow me so a partner can check it, Togekiss can do the same, although a boosted double-edge will probably OHKO or 2HKO.
2) It doesn't switch in and instantly be at +1 or +2
3) WoW and Intimidate are always common, and physical sets don't like them
4) It has 4MMS. I've seen so many argument saying "fire blast varients" or "Aqua Tail Variants", or varients with EQ, or Hydro Pump, or special attacking ones. It can't do anything at once
5) ANYTHING can be broken with enough boosts / follow me support. We should ban everything that can boost it's own stats if your that worried.
6) The meta is really prepared for it right now
7) Strong =/= Broken
8) It has common weaknesses
9) It is very susceptible to speed control. Tail Wind and TR both can halt sweeps if timed right, as many checks become counters now that they outspeed.
10) Saying "I need to run this or I loose" is a bad argument. In XY, you needed a strong fighting attack to check or counter Kang, and you needed a strong ice attack to check Landoge. If you didn't run those, then say GG from team preview. If that didn't mean broken with the 2 strongest mons last gen, then it may not be broke this gen
It doesn't outspeed +1 mence. The second Mence gets a free turn (cough Jirachi, Talonflame, Fake Out, etc) ludicolo ceases to be a check and in fact is a dead man walking. That is hardly a check. It is reliant on BOTH rain being up and Mence not having boosted.
Have fun relying on that.
Megamence is fairly good friends with Talonflame, and both learn Tailwind. It makes good friends with a lot of speed control guys, in fact. For every bit that Tailwind helps make checks, Megamence can use a Tailwind to be at unobtainable speed plateaus.
The calcs do take into account Intimidate if the Pokemon taking the damage can have it. Sure you could double Intimidate it or switch in an Intimidate user and a healthy Flying resist together, but that's why Salamence has Protect to buy itself a turn while its partner does something.
As for getting up the DD, you're right that it doesn't enter with +1, but it can get it up fairly easily. Obviously it's not going to try to set up on any of these Pokemon (unless they're physical and Intimidate helps out) but it doesn't even have to come in on them at first. It's not hard to find things like weak physical attackers and Substitute Heatran that really can't do anything to you. And redirection from Jirachi or Amoongus pretty much guarentees you'll get set up. This would normally be somewhat difficult to get that combo out, but sacking 2 Pokemon isn't a bad idea since Mega Salamence is so strong.
tape
i woke up in a new bugatti
Ludicolo also gets a free turn (cough Jirachi) to hit with Ice Beam nice n easy.
on the "shaky" chance for MegaSwamp to OHKO you could easily spam Rock slide/any-other-spread or even double target.
Responding to particularly bad arguments. I've realized I just don't have time to respond to everything dumb being said in this thread. It's a flood.
Alright time to post my opinion on this.
Let's compare mega mence and kang:
1. Both are weak to physical debuffs (intimidate, WoW).
2. They have similar typing in a sense, that you have to carry fighting or ice/fairy type to counter them. If you don't, then you are not very likely to OHKO them. They both have few direct counters while unboosted like Terrakion or Sylveon /rain teams with ice moves. If they are boosted, then they practically have no counters.
3. Both can boost their attack. Salamence also gets speed boosting. However Kang can setup more effectively while attacking. Also Hammer Arm helps Kang to control speed under TR and Fake Out helps your teammate to create tailwind or trick room.
4. While mence has higher base speed, it lacks consistent priority, which kang does have in the form of sucker punch. Also higher speed makes you more vunerable to TR and restricts your teambuilding options a bit, because kang works under TR fine.
5. Both can sweep entire teams with redirect support and both have very good support options (amoonguss/togekiss and jirachi).
6. Both have wide movepool and lots of sets to run. Just because kang has sort of standardized sets which developed over a year, it doesn't mean it can't run surprise moves if you are CTing.
7. Kang can support teammates with fake out, Salamence supports with intimidate.
8. Kang breaks sashes, while Salamence has option to run spread moves (which don't synergize well with Kang's parental bond)
I'm not bothering with calcs, because they have been mentioned in previous posts and i believe they are not fake lol.
Conclusion:
Mega Salamence is strong pokemon on the powerlevel of Mega Kangaskhan. If we ban ban mega mence it won't create meta diversity at all - instead of salamence, people will run kangaskhan (and counters to them). If you believe that removing mega mence will make other shitmons like mega Pidgeot or Beedrill viable, then go play pokemon amie.
Also I remember few generations back Arcanine used to be very good mon, however new pokemon came out and outclassed it / countered it. Should we now ban all those pokes? No, we didn't because we decided it was time to move the meta forward. If we ban mence, then we will be back in kang meta.
1. Both are weak to physical debuffs (intimidate, WoW).
2. They have similar typing in a sense, that you have to carry fighting or ice/fairy type to counter them. If you don't, then you are not very likely to OHKO them. They both have few direct counters while unboosted like Terrakion or Sylveon /rain teams with ice moves. If they are boosted, then they practically have no counters.
3. Both can boost their attack. Salamence also gets speed boosting. However Kang can setup more effectively while attacking. Also Hammer Arm helps Kang to control speed under TR and Fake Out helps your teammate to create tailwind or trick room.
4. While mence has higher base speed, it lacks consistent priority, which kang does have in the form of sucker punch. Also higher speed makes you more vunerable to TR and restricts your teambuilding options a bit, because kang works under TR fine.
5. Both can sweep entire teams with redirect support and both have very good support options (amoonguss/togekiss and jirachi).
6. Both have wide movepool and lots of sets to run. Just because kang has sort of standardized sets which developed over a year, it doesn't mean it can't run surprise moves if you are CTing.
7. Kang can support teammates with fake out, Salamence supports with intimidate.
8. Kang breaks sashes, while Salamence has option to run spread moves (which don't synergize well with Kang's parental bond)
I'm not bothering with calcs, because they have been mentioned in previous posts and i believe they are not fake lol.
Conclusion:
Mega Salamence is strong pokemon on the powerlevel of Mega Kangaskhan. If we ban ban mega mence it won't create meta diversity at all - instead of salamence, people will run kangaskhan (and counters to them). If you believe that removing mega mence will make other shitmons like mega Pidgeot or Beedrill viable, then go play pokemon amie.
Also I remember few generations back Arcanine used to be very good mon, however new pokemon came out and outclassed it / countered it. Should we now ban all those pokes? No, we didn't because we decided it was time to move the meta forward. If we ban mence, then we will be back in kang meta.
how about we don't compare it to mega kanga, and decide wether or not it's broken based on it's individual power in the metagame.
^ Short note to remind people that brokenness is not comparative, but the real reason I wanted to post is to say that I have been shifted around an abstain vote by now.
The discussion from the last few pages have been much stronger from the anti-ban side, and when I took away my own bias, I realised it may not be as broken as I first saw it. I'm posting mostly to tell all the ban-hungry users to give more convincing counter arguments instead of acting condescending, since solid proven arguments that also make the opposite opinion seem less true are the arguments that pull abstainers towards your opinion.
By now most people that have posted have made a decision, but it seems like it will be close, as opposed to when it started, where the majority seemed to find it broken. Don't be overconfident when posting about your opinion, pulling one or two abstains to either side could mean the eventual outcome of this vote.
Edit@below: your conclusion makes sense, but your first sentence is misleading. I also generally don't understand how 2 loosely centralizing mons in a metagame (mence + kanga) is better than one (just kanga), which your conclusion indirectly states.
^ Short note to remind people that brokenness is not comparative, but the real reason I wanted to post is to say that I have been shifted around an abstain vote by now.
The discussion from the last few pages have been much stronger from the anti-ban side, and when I took away my own bias, I realised it may not be as broken as I first saw it. I'm posting mostly to tell all the ban-hungry users to give more convincing counter arguments instead of acting condescending, since solid proven arguments that also make the opposite opinion seem less true are the arguments that pull abstainers towards your opinion.
By now most people that have posted have made a decision, but it seems like it will be close, as opposed to when it started, where the majority seemed to find it broken. Don't be overconfident when posting about your opinion, pulling one or two abstains to either side could mean the eventual outcome of this vote.
Edit@below: your conclusion makes sense, but your first sentence is misleading. I also generally don't understand how 2 loosely centralizing mons in a metagame (mence + kanga) is better than one (just kanga), which your conclusion indirectly states.
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Individual power isn't the only thing to consider when banning something. You also have to look at it from teambuilder's perspective. In my post i just wanted to say that Mega Sala isn't an autoinclude in almost every team - if it was, then it would be banworthy.
Not mine. I revel in the essentially free turns Will-o-Wisp gives me, and how few intimidators can take Hyper Voice.
I do appreciate people saying special megamence is bad, though. It means people keep trying to intimidate and burn mine.
As often as I've gotten my Megamence trick roomed I just sorta chilled through it. Though speed is an important asset to Megamence it's hardly the only thing going for it, and setting up and utilizing Trick Room is hard when Megamence is murdering.
If we want to talk about comparative competency, Mega Salamence is better than Rayquaza. Megamence is faster both pre- and post-mega, and tougher too: 95/130/90 is a fair bit hardier than 105/90/90, at least physically. Intimidate to Aerialate is a lot more frequently relevant than Air Lock, too. While Rayray has a better movepool, Megamence hits harder physically due to Aerialate and has an incredibly spammable special STAB with spread, also due to Aerialate. We'd have to consider bringing Rayray down if we keep Megamence, which is kinda screwed up.
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