I think this will actually turn out really solid. Best set will probably be Leaf Storm / HP Fire / Dragon Pulse / Giga Drain @ Assault Vest. Knock Off over DP or GD is a good option for Chansey, Scarf Lando, general counters, etc. Good bulk, good defensive typing, excellent Speed tier and incredibly spammable powerful STAB move (high BP STAB moves > high base Attack, Talonflame is a good example). It has some obvious flaws but I'd use it.
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Pokémon Serperior
- Thread starter Youmu the Gardener
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I don't know about that.. altaria can't exactly switch into HP ice, Rock, or D-pulse premega. Check at best.
+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 141-167 (48.4 - 57.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
+4 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 212-249 (72.8 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 282-333 (96.9 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Altaria Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 246-290 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
^if not a screens set.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
It could run HP Rock for Talonflame and Zard, but HP Fire and HP Ground are better imo
It's been way too long. Serperior has had to wait WAY too long for it to finally get the Ability that makes it usable in the first place. Of course, I don't see it making a huge impact in OU with threats like Talonflame running around.
Also, slight nitpick for the LO set in the OP: Why on earth would you have 29 HP IVs and 8 EVs when you could just use 31 IVs and move the EVs to Speed or Defense?
Also, slight nitpick for the LO set in the OP: Why on earth would you have 29 HP IVs and 8 EVs when you could just use 31 IVs and move the EVs to Speed or Defense?
Altaria switches in immediately before you get a Leaf Storm boost.
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 161-192 (55.3 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Megas and then Roosts or uses Dragon Dance)
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 45-55 (15.4 - 18.9%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 92-109 (31.6 - 37.4%) -- 85.8% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 183-217 (62.8 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is a best case scenario for Serperior, and the 2HKO isn't guaranteed unless you predict it and have Rocks (too lazy to math to see what the actual chances are). Bulkier variant aren't 2HKO'd and can threaten you back by getting a DD boost, phaze you out with Roar, use Perish Song, or hitting you with Fire Blast (which can OHKO after LO recoil and Rocks).
The whole reason to use 29 HP is to reduce the amount of damage Life Orb does to you when using moves. It makes it so you can use 11 attacks instead of 10 if Serperior takes no other damage whatsoever. Overall passive damage minimization.
EDIT: Reading back I might have misunderstood what you were asking cause of odd wording.
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Serperior also gets an evasion boost from Defog, while not super important, thought it was worth mentioning
The set I'm about to post is to be frank, horse poo, but I'm expecting that there will be people who use it regardless.
Serperior@Choice Scarf
Contrary
Timid/Modest 4 HP / 252 / 252 Spd
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power ??? loldoesitevenreallymatter?
- Knock Off/Glare/Filler
Really, the only move you should be using with this set is Leaf Storm, as Serperior has such bad base offenses without a boost that it won't kill anything that's not already weakened (or I guess 4x weak with an appropriate Hidden Power). What this set aims to do is clean house against offensive teams who can interrupt its usual LO/lefties/AV sweeping set with speedy but frail 'mons like Greninja, Mega Manectric/Lopp, Choice Scarf Lando-t and other random scarfers in general. The benefit of this set will be that offense really needs strong priority or pokes who can tank Leaf Storms and retaliate (which are quite numerous actually). Team support is a must, obviously, but Serperior has such a shallow offensive movepool that it would need regular team support to have coverage moves that Serperior chooses to forgo with its choice of Hidden Power anyway.
This is a little better than M-scept since it has more power (after boosts) and speed to sweep with more ease. It's also, of course, worse than some of the other standard Serperior sets because of flexibility issues, but hey, you're usually spamming Leaf Storm (or knock off/glare) anyway.
Serperior@Choice Scarf
Contrary
Timid/Modest 4 HP / 252 / 252 Spd
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power ??? loldoesitevenreallymatter?
- Knock Off/Glare/Filler
Really, the only move you should be using with this set is Leaf Storm, as Serperior has such bad base offenses without a boost that it won't kill anything that's not already weakened (or I guess 4x weak with an appropriate Hidden Power). What this set aims to do is clean house against offensive teams who can interrupt its usual LO/lefties/AV sweeping set with speedy but frail 'mons like Greninja, Mega Manectric/Lopp, Choice Scarf Lando-t and other random scarfers in general. The benefit of this set will be that offense really needs strong priority or pokes who can tank Leaf Storms and retaliate (which are quite numerous actually). Team support is a must, obviously, but Serperior has such a shallow offensive movepool that it would need regular team support to have coverage moves that Serperior chooses to forgo with its choice of Hidden Power anyway.
This is a little better than M-scept since it has more power (after boosts) and speed to sweep with more ease. It's also, of course, worse than some of the other standard Serperior sets because of flexibility issues, but hey, you're usually spamming Leaf Storm (or knock off/glare) anyway.
Friendly reminder that Leaf Storm has 8 PP. If you get forced out you're in trouble just because of that...
Serperior surely now had a win-con? Regardless of how easy it is to wall, I think the fact it can late game clean is pretty huge.
I would probably recommend (based on Eldrake's serperior - lol - idea):
Serperior @ Assault Vest
Ability: Contrary
EVs:4 16 HP / 252 Def / 252 240 Spe (see D-what's sensible discussion below)
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- HP coverage you desire
- Dragon Tail/Giga Drain
Leaf Storm is the STAB, and Dragon Pulse is literally pretty much the only other special attack it knows. Hidden Power for coverage, Dragon Tail for special wall phazing or Giga Drain for recovery. Maybe HP investment is better than def, some testing would be good, but with def investment and an AV it would be pretty good at walling and it has a niche as one of the only AV users (outside of the other useless Contrary pokemon) still capable of stat boosting. Speed investment as the speed tier is pretty good, though someone may want to suggest investment relevant to the current speed tiers? Maybe less speed and more HP would be better? It certainly would be better at walling with more HP and it really depends on what you want to speed creep.
I'm pretty excited about this - sets like this combined with the fact it could be running LO with Sub make it threatening. The speed is definitely competitive; though it's not overpowered I definitely see it making an OU splash.
I would probably recommend (based on Eldrake's serperior - lol - idea):
Serperior @ Assault Vest
Ability: Contrary
EVs:
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- HP coverage you desire
- Dragon Tail/Giga Drain
Leaf Storm is the STAB, and Dragon Pulse is literally pretty much the only other special attack it knows. Hidden Power for coverage, Dragon Tail for special wall phazing or Giga Drain for recovery. Maybe HP investment is better than def, some testing would be good, but with def investment and an AV it would be pretty good at walling and it has a niche as one of the only AV users (outside of the other useless Contrary pokemon) still capable of stat boosting. Speed investment as the speed tier is pretty good, though someone may want to suggest investment relevant to the current speed tiers? Maybe less speed and more HP would be better? It certainly would be better at walling with more HP and it really depends on what you want to speed creep.
I'm pretty excited about this - sets like this combined with the fact it could be running LO with Sub make it threatening. The speed is definitely competitive; though it's not overpowered I definitely see it making an OU splash.
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What would an Assault Vest do specifically that can't be done with LO or leftovers, besides overall survivability? Specifically calcs. I can't run them at the moment, but can it take things like Lati@s' Draco Meteors, or MSlowbro/MSableye attacks, or MAlt's Fire Blasts? Maybe stray Ice Beams or Icy Winds from some bulky waters or Keldeo. And then what can Serp do in retaliation, because that initial Leaf Storm is not going to hurt most things, and if you can't get the 2HKO when they can, well... that's all definite reasons not to use Assault Vest. Don't forget you're weak AF until you manage to use Leaf Storm, once per every time you switch in, and without Giga Drain you lose half the reason people are suggesting Serp runs an Assault Vest in the first place (form of recovery + form of setup).
Don't run max speed though, it doesn't get you anywhere (unless there's some scarfed threats I'm forgetting). 240 EVs outspeeds the genies and all the 110s, 244 if using HP Fire or that other 30 speed Hidden Power.
Grass coverage is just so embarrassingly bad. Even if Grass Pokemon could get a Grass type equivalent of Freeze Dry... It's still so, so bad.
Don't run max speed though, it doesn't get you anywhere (unless there's some scarfed threats I'm forgetting). 240 EVs outspeeds the genies and all the 110s, 244 if using HP Fire or that other 30 speed Hidden Power.
Grass coverage is just so embarrassingly bad. Even if Grass Pokemon could get a Grass type equivalent of Freeze Dry... It's still so, so bad.
Which is why I said late game cleaner, not "overpowered MoFo that makes its counters garbage". Everything has counters, and maybe an AV isn't a good idea, but with the natural capabilities it's hardly a bad one either. I'll maybe put more effort into the calcs tomorrow and see if the speculative craziness I'm spouting is worthwhile. Mono types tend to be nicer in terms of resistances than dual types, as they don't accumulate any of those pesky x4 weaknesses, though I'd be lying if I said grass type was a good type for resistance.
Point taken, will make an amendment - unless anyone else proffers adamant/modest/scarf tiers that we haven't seen?
Yes it's bad, but it's a STAB that hits very hard against anything neutral - you also get a stat boost on the switch against something resisted so long as it hits which is good given the speed tier. I'm not saying Serperior is the answer to everyone's dreams, but it's not bad. Beyond that, the vast majority of ice type pokes get hit neutrally by STAB Leaf Storm - maybe more relevant to an offensive set but that still plays nicely with AV, particularly common non-STAB HP Ice coverage.
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Serperior looks like it could definitely be a threat and significantly moreso than other Pokemon that became 'viable' with the ORAS transition, such as Dragalge and Pangoro. What makes Serperior stands out is its Speed and how efficient it can be at tearing apart bulkier teams with the right support -- though that may be a detrimental factor to its success. Serperior has some coverage issues relating to various common Pokemon in the tier, which requires greater support than many other threats. Magnezone and Dugtrio sound like really good partners to compensate for this thing's lack of coverage depending on its choice of Hidden Power. As does EQ Latios.
I don't like the idea of HP Rock...you compromise your ability to hit any Steel-types for coverage on two Pokemon, one of which isn't even that common right now (Mega Pinsir).
I don't like the idea of HP Rock...you compromise your ability to hit any Steel-types for coverage on two Pokemon, one of which isn't even that common right now (Mega Pinsir).
Boosted DPulse hits them both for decent damage anyway - it might be like every other Hidden Power combo on every Special Pokemon; on a certain team, in a certain circumstance, alternative Hidden Powers might be useful, but HP Rock looks very much like OO rather than a slashed move. Likewise Ice, though I'd much sooner have Rock than Ice. It does negligible damage to just about everything /excepting/ the usual 4x things people want to hit with HP Ice, and I'd much rather hit Lando/Garchomp/Gliscor with Leaf Storm for the +2, hell, even Dragonite on switch-in (following up with a +2 DPulse). Not to mention the opening you leave when using it to the already scary Talonflame, Charizard and Heatran. :/
*migrates to Dragalge thread*
...wait, Pangoro's viable now? O_o ORAS meta is weird.
D:
*migrates to Dragalge thread*
...wait, Pangoro's viable now? O_o ORAS meta is weird.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 268-316 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 295-348 (86.5 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 383-452 (112.3 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Serperior after getting a Leaf Storm boost hits harder than Specs Keldeo, so I could see him played similarly. The difference is the fact that, unlike Keldeo, Serperior always benefits from using his main STAB: If Chansey switches in on Keldeo's Hydro Pump, he's forced out; if she switches into Serperior, he can keep boosting on her with Leaf Storm, which then can 2HKO at max
+6 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 390-460 (60.7 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And if Chansey tries to Seismic Toss, Maxed Giga Drain always outpaces its damage (though LO recoil might still have a minimal health loss with low rolls)
+6 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 226-266 (35.2 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This is the main thing that I think make Serperior a noteworthy threat: if he gets that first boost, he only gets harder and harder to stop for anything besides Steel Type resists.
+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 295-348 (86.5 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 383-452 (112.3 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Serperior after getting a Leaf Storm boost hits harder than Specs Keldeo, so I could see him played similarly. The difference is the fact that, unlike Keldeo, Serperior always benefits from using his main STAB: If Chansey switches in on Keldeo's Hydro Pump, he's forced out; if she switches into Serperior, he can keep boosting on her with Leaf Storm, which then can 2HKO at max
+6 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 390-460 (60.7 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And if Chansey tries to Seismic Toss, Maxed Giga Drain always outpaces its damage (though LO recoil might still have a minimal health loss with low rolls)
+6 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 226-266 (35.2 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This is the main thing that I think make Serperior a noteworthy threat: if he gets that first boost, he only gets harder and harder to stop for anything besides Steel Type resists.
It's kind of hit me that Serperior is one of those Pokemon best left as a sleeper threat. In niche conditions, it'll perform admirably as opponents not used to it will leave a lot of opportunity for it to set up, or if they spend too much time scouting that hidden power or it's 4th move then it can open up a lot of holes. But on the off chance that someone discovers a particular set is "the next best thing" - because being walled by Steel types or being weak to Talonflame is hardly an automatic exclusion from high OU - it IS the kind of Pokemon that if people were to prepare for it, it'd be very, very tough to use. Right now we're using it in a game where nobody considers it as a threat while teambuilding - admittedly because they often won't have to, but that does affect things. Which is kind of a shame I guess? But it might very well be a C+ staple, maybe ~B like Chesnaught or Victini. It certainly has its niches, and nothing in OU performs the same way it does.
...
*inb4 Contrary Malamar*
*or Spinda?*
...
*inb4 Contrary Malamar*
*or Spinda?*
Assualt vest+LO? Seems legit.
I'd like to see somebody post calcs with screens
Yeah I derped there, but my point still stands you're not going to be doing much back with an unboosted, un-STABed Dragon Pulse and you don't actually stop the Defog unless you run Taunt (which you can't do because AssVest).
EDIT:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Serperior: 192-227 (65.9 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Serperior: 97-114 (33.3 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 90-107 (30.9 - 36.7%) -- 64.3% chance to 3HKO
Yeah that's not stopping it without significant investment. Min damage is literally 99.2% (96.8% if you used Psyshock for the second attack), and Dragon Pulse can't even guarantee a 2HKO after Rocks without your own LO.
252 SpA Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 120-142 (39.7 - 47%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
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With HP fire + Dragon Pulse + Obligatory Leaf storm, this 'mon gets perfect neutral coverage. The only stuff that can maybe check or counter this either:
1. Resist grass and take at most neutral damage from its other moves (thundurus maybe? but even here, if serperior runs the right hidden power… same with victini and heatran, but again, depending on what type of HP it runs, any check that becomes common enough can get murdered. Goodra is an interesting idea, but it must be swapped in immediatly, or else it risks taking too much damage from dragon pulse)
2. Easily kill it with superior speed or priority (Greninja with ice beam, Talon flame and Pinsir, although if greninja became "the check" to it, it could possibly opt to run choice scarf, as its main job really is only 1 move anyways, probably a few others i am missing)
Of course, there are a multitude of other obscure options (sap sipper azumarill can wall almost any set Serperior wants to run… but are you really gonna run sap sipper over huge power? I mean, i guess you could try to use sap sipper azumarill with sing…)
1. Resist grass and take at most neutral damage from its other moves (thundurus maybe? but even here, if serperior runs the right hidden power… same with victini and heatran, but again, depending on what type of HP it runs, any check that becomes common enough can get murdered. Goodra is an interesting idea, but it must be swapped in immediatly, or else it risks taking too much damage from dragon pulse)
2. Easily kill it with superior speed or priority (Greninja with ice beam, Talon flame and Pinsir, although if greninja became "the check" to it, it could possibly opt to run choice scarf, as its main job really is only 1 move anyways, probably a few others i am missing)
Of course, there are a multitude of other obscure options (sap sipper azumarill can wall almost any set Serperior wants to run… but are you really gonna run sap sipper over huge power? I mean, i guess you could try to use sap sipper azumarill with sing…)
If running Assault Vest, what will the 4th move be? i think there are 2 options: Knock Off and Giga Drain. Knock off seems better cuz running 2 grass moves seems really redundant. Thoughts?
On non-AV set tho, i think it's better to run Glare over Substitute or another attacking move cuz it's guaranteed to paralyse pretty much everything that would check/counter Sep.
On non-AV set tho, i think it's better to run Glare over Substitute or another attacking move cuz it's guaranteed to paralyse pretty much everything that would check/counter Sep.
Serperior is my favourite Pokemon, so when this was revealed 2 days ago I was ecstatic that Serperior finally got the ability it had been wanting for ages. We discussed about it on IRC but I hadn't made a post about it, so I decided to now ^.^. Unlike any other OU viable Pokemon, Serperior can double its Special Attack while attacking at the same time, and this point is so crucial it completely turns Serperior upside down. Most Pokemon have access to reliable STAB and a powerful STAB move, like Keldeo's Scald vs Hydro Pump, or Latios's Dragon Pulse vs Draco Meteor (Dragon Pulse isn't common but I'm using it as an example). Where Serperior differs is that its powerful STAB move not only is its reliable STAB move (well, outside of 90% accuracy which really isn't too bad) but it also gives it a great boost which turns it from a terrible Pokemon into a remarkably unique threat. Serperior doesn't gain momentum and trade it for power. It gains more momentum and power at the same time. Leaf Storm is mandatory, of course. With Contrary Leaf Storm, Serperior has amazing value against defensive teams as it typically takes advantage of and beats common answers to special Pokemon, like Chansey, Unaware Clefable, and CM Mega Sableye. Dragon Pulse hits your fat Dragons which Leaf Storm is resisted against, like Dragonite, Garchomp, Kyurem-B, and the like. The a Hidden Power; HP Fire for Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn, HP Ground for Heatran, and HP Rock for Mega Charizard Y. The last slot is filler; Sub is an option but SubLO isn't completely desirable. Giga Drain is probably better, for gaining recovery and not wanting to risk a miss against like a last mon full health Rhyperior or something. I think it's possibly even better than Mega Sceptile; it doesn't take a Mega slot, can boost its power, and hits harder, though it misses out on better Speed and STAB on Dragon Pulse, as well as the ability to hit Heatran. Speaking of Speed, Serperior actually has really good Speed; it beats out Keldeo, Latios, and Gengar. Its bulk is good too, giving it even more benefits.
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