Ladder STABmons (the old one)

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I'm not fully jumping into the discussion right now, but I wanted to say a couple things.

offensive checks are aplenty, just like with mega medicham. Aerodactyl, Mega Scizor, various fast mons can outspeed and take a espeed. Even stuff like keldeo can take SS Espeed barring a crit (70%).
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 111-132 (34.2 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 222-262 (68.5 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Keldeo can only revenge, and it has to be healthy.
Also, MScizor doesn't outspeed, and it loses to Fire Punch and even 252 HP takes over half its health from Precipice Blades. 4 HP can take 80% from Precipice, meaning even against Diggers lacking Fire Punch it's a shaky check, and no matter what it comes out severely weakened.

The issue with banning diggersby is all the broken shit that comes in. It excessively centralizes sableye to handle those sweepers, and could lead to the banning of moves...or even types...*cringes*. Where normally we can just say the game will adapt or we can ban the broken shit, the problem becomes that this would require a fundamental change to the tier, one that may not be for the best.
There are other FakeSpeeders. I've been using Braviary over Diggersby since the beginning of gen VI and never had any problems with the sweepers that Diggers keeps in check. Braviary is the best of them, but there are several mons that can viably run the set. Have we all forgotten about Ursaring? Sure, it takes residual damage every turn, but it's even stronger than Diggersby is and has the elemental punches and Play Rough, although it lacks Knock Off.

As I said I'll post more later, but I'm very solidly pro-ban.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
Notice how I said CHECKS ffs. Can people please quit manipulating every argument to be what they want it to be? Fakespeeders don't get stronger than diggersby, and ursaring has no longevity. I mean NONE.
 
Notice how I said CHECKS ffs. Can people please quit manipulating every argument to be what they want it to be? Fakespeeders don't get stronger than diggersby, and ursaring has no longevity. I mean NONE.
well if there was a better fakespeeder than diggs it would be instabanned
 
Notice how I said CHECKS ffs. Can people please quit manipulating every argument to be what they want it to be? Fakespeeders don't get stronger than diggersby, and ursaring has no longevity. I mean NONE.
Keldeo can't check it the first turn it's out because it loses to FakeSpeed, and MScizor, as I said, loses to Fire Punch or even Precipice Blades if it's weakened. They are shaky checks. That was my point.
And FakeSpeed from Braviary is strong enough to take care of what it needs to, and it also packs Defiant. It easily assumes Diggersby's revenging niche if the bunny is banned. It's been covered why the "X broken thing beats Y broken thing so X shouldn't be banned" argument is bad, too.
 
DM35: It's been addressed before, but the argument of broken thing X checking broken thing Y doesn't apply here, since by standard definition 70% of the meta is broken. I mean just think about in an OU setting how amazing Greninja would be with dark void and knock off or Talonflame with espeed, Belly drum, Dragon's Ascent, Lovely Kiss and Sacred Fire? The whole fun of the meta (in my opinion) is to use things that seem so obviously broken that it actually hits a balance, sort of like Ubers. While I'm not as familiar with the intricacies of the Aegislash suspect, I can say that something like mega-cross which is just extremely hard to switch into isn't the same as say SD or RP Lando-T packing Dragon Ascent.

Also the second post that talks about needing to run multiple checks to something is too overcentralizing, but there's always been dominant strategies that required things to check it. Remember, that while these are "Diggersby" checks, they also happen to beat majority of the rest of the physical normal crowd. Additionally, see Gen V teams requiring mulitple (usually 2) steels to beat the prevalance of dragons.

Unfixable:
Unfixable said:
But that doesn't make the other sets unviable, I think it has one best set, but it certainly has much more. I personally run Spikes lead Diggersby and it's really effective, I've certainly used it enough and ranted enough about it lol. Diggersby has ~6 sets: revenge killer, Belly Drum, Sash + Shell Smash, Choice Band, Spikes lead, PunchBunny. I may even have missed something, but I don't think so.
Punch Bunny and Spikes lead are fringe sets that you'd rather see your opponent running than the other 3. CB is essentially the same as standard fakespeed (banded espeed = 1.5 * 80, unboosted fakespeed = 40 + 80. Respond if my damage calculation skills are bad) but easier to take advantage of at the cost of being harder to switch into. But you're right, setup sets are not in the least bit unviable, and I was wrong to say that. However, you can't deny that revenge killing sets are not only most common, but also most effective in the long term.

Unfixable said:
I mean, sure, the pokemon can switch easily but what if Diggersby does predict this and uses Shell Smash or something? Then what is the opponent supposed to do? I don't really see how Fake Out + Extreme Speed damage is bad, I mean, you're not sweeping with Extreme Speed every time. You are mainly using it to check and pick off a lot of the weakened foes and then maybe later in the match after the opponent has been worn down. I mean, you kill something and the opponent brings in something that does check Diggersby, but that's how the entire game works. Scizor is sure a good check, but it can't switch in if Diggersby predicts and uses Earthquake. Prediction is a large key you have to take into account.
You can't make the argument that the Diggersby user will always predict you, and you get the short end of the stick. Sometimes an opponent will make a play, and sometimes you will. The game has a give and take to it. And Fake out + Extremespeed damage isn't bad it's essentially, but again, using fake out makes it easier to switch into. And Extremespeed is digg's bread and butter. No one would be upset if it was just spamming precipice blades.

Unfixable said:
Mega Scizor is 2HKOed by Earthquake or Fire Punch, Skarmory is beaten through Wild Charge, Landorus-T is smacked by Ice Punch or Head Charge, Ferrothorn is OHKOed by Fire Punch, Slowbro is 2HKOed by Choice Band Precipice Blades (which I run myself, and have been seeing more of), Quagsire is defeated by Fake Out --> Earthquake but does have a generally good matchup, Forretress is 2HKOed by Extreme Speed, Aegislash doesn't like Knock Off and then Earthquake once baloon is ded, Chansey is 2HKOed by Earthquake, Sableye is OHKOed by Earthquake, Extreme Speed has a possibility to break Gliscor and does after Fake Out (or run Ice Punch), Tangrowth is the only true counter of those Pokemon you mentioned. Out of all of these, it outspeeds Mega Scizor, Skarmory, uninvested Landorus-T (needs to invest to check), Ferrothorn, Slowbro, Quagsire, Forretress, Aegislash, Chansey, Sableye, Gliscor, Tangrowth; or all of them basically. They can not switch in and this usually means something will die to get it in. Look at team preview only, the team is now 5-6 and might either be 4-6 or 5-5 with the first 5 being weakened due to Diggersby. You say that Punch moves limit coverage, but between Fake Out / Extreme Speed / Earthquake / Punch, it actually has a lot better coverage. It can break through anything it wants to, think Mega Slowbro here.
  • M-Scizor not actually 2HKO'd. Standard OU bulky lives 2, usually I see them taking even bulkier spreads. Gar Grind always OHKOs with adamant min investment if Diggs has no bulk
4+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 314-372 (100.6 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Mega Scizor: 144-171 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Mega Scizor: 132-156 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

  • Skarmory is almost never beaten by Wild Charge.
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 146-172 (43.7 - 51.4%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
this doesn't even factor in the chance of king's shield

  • What world do you live in where Quagsire loses to Fake out EQ?
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 82-97 (20.8 - 24.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 169-201 (42.8 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

  • When you said Forretress is 2HKO'd by espeed, I'm assuming that you meant eq
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 120-142 (33.9 - 40.2%) -- 39.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

  • Again, this point has been brought up so many times it isn't even funny, but: Don't bring your Sableye in on their Diggersby unless you are COMPLETELY certain that they will espeed. Sableye just lets you force diggs out threatening with a wisp cripple.
  • Chansey has generally been a safe switch-in to Diggs in the past. The only reason this changed is knock off
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 280-330 (39.8 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

  • Fire punch does not OHKO Ferrothorn
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 252-300 (71.5 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also, speed usually isn't an issue with most of these since they shrug off most hits Diggs throws at them and can win the 1v1.

Unfixable said:
This point is fairly true, but Protect in the last slot isn't as bad as you're saying. Protect blocks Fake Out, the one thing in its way, and is even harder to deal with thannot running it. This is why you don't set up right away, you wait until an opportunity arises late game and then Normal / Ground isn't even bad.
I apologize if the post came off as saying that protect in the last slot is bad.I've always been advocating for more sweepers to run the move and I have lost to Leafstrom ~ 6 times to the same team because of SashSmash Diggs with protect. It is by no means a bad move. But when you see they're running protect, you take a sigh of relief because it means your Skarm, Rotom-w, etc. now beat the smasher. Normal/Ground is typically very good- only resists are Skarm, Bronzong, and other floating rocks, ghosts, and steels; It's just standard teams in STABmons realize Diggersby exists and is threatening and prepares accordingly.

Throbulator36:
Throbulator36 said:
well if there was a better fakespeeder than diggs it would be instabanned
7 extra base speed wouldn't get Diggs instabanned.

The Reptile:
The Reptile said:
I'll post more opinions later but I think a better comparison is Greninja in ORAS rather than Aegislash in XY. The reason is simple - you can't really check it until you know what it's running. Assuming it always has FakeSpeed (which isn't the safest thing, but I feel like FakeSpeed is the best set), Earthquake (or Perceptual / Principle / Whatever Blade when relevant), and Silk Scarf (Life Orb is bad imho); it can run:
  • Ice Punch to hit Lando-T (2HKO), Gourgeist (Super only has a chance to be 3HKO'd by Super), Gengar (2HKO), Chesnaught (3HKO), and some other mons I'm missing like other Bulky Grass-types and Gliscor.
  • Fire Punch hits Scizor (gets hurt by EQ/Blades a bit but Fire Punch always kills), Ferrothorn (see; Scizor), Bulky Grass-types, Skarmory (3HKO), Gengar, and some other Steel-types that don't care about EQ.
  • Thunder Punch imho is a shitty Fire Punch most of the time - can't even 3HKO Slowbro and does nothing vs bulky grasses. Main reason Thunder Punch is used is for Skarm which Fire Punch is a better option anyways. Wild Charge is better, and even then only 3HKO's Skarmory
  • Knock Off hits Gourgeist (3HKO considering power drop on Super), Gengar, and not much else (I guess M-Slowbro but its doing diddly vs it because muh Mega Stone). However, Knock Off has utility vs Skarmory and friends, as you can Knock Off any Shed Shells they might hold to trap with Magnezone / Gothitelle later on. It also cripples Chansey and lets your EQ tear it a new one.
  • Head Charge, an old move that some people liked to run (including me - I still do sometimes), can break though walls such as Chansey (reliable 2HKO - recoil don't even kill you because Head Charge has reduced recoil. Also ESPeed + Head Charge KOs. Blades do this too but can miss :^) ), 3HKO's physically defensive MegaBro, 3HKO's physically defensive Lando-T before Intimidate and 2HKO's if it switches in, 2HKO's Chesnaught, 2HKO's Gliscor, ect ect. It even dents things like Skarmory (physically defensive takes around 25.7-30.5 from it). If you're wondering why this is better than Perceptual Blades its because it can't miss and its boosted by Silk Scarf, the best item.
  • Lovely Kiss to sleep switch-ins. Doesn't work vs Gliscor if it got it's Toxic Orb. Also 75% accuracy but w/e
  • Spikes :DDDD
  • Smack Down on the switch mainly hurts Skarmory, although it lets you hit Lando-T with Blades. Not very helpful vs Gengar actually since Gengar will probably outspeed and bully you anyways.
  • Explosion is only really helpful for double FakeSpeed sweep teams, and this is probably better on your partner than on Diggersby itself (i.e. Stoutland), but it is insanely powerful so it is an option.
This makes it very hard to check. For example, anyone using Lando-T as a check needs to worry about Ice Punch or even Head Charge. Skarmory needs to watch out for Wild Charge / Fire Punch for the 3HKO and even Knock Off if you're Shed Shell to avoid Magnezone trapping (which btw Mag + Bunny OP OTP paring). Gourgeist-T and Skarmory are probably still the best for defensive teams, and Gengar is probably still the best answer for offensive teams (btw Knock Off doesn't suddenly make this not a check - it's always been shaky due to Wild Charge anyways, as it nearly OHKOs)
This. This is the most legitimate argument I have seen so far, and again I'd like to change the comparison, except this time to Genesect. The fact that it has the ABILITY to beat almost every single on of the things that are used to beat it is legitimately quite scary and shows the versatility it can use. The only feasible counterpoint that I can make in response to this post is that unlike Genesect and Greninja, Diggersby isn't as flexible in that it has moves it MUST run lest it be turned into a glorified lure (which only goes so far).

Miscellaneous comments: I know people are saying "oh precipice blades OMG so strong" but I on't know if its just me but I have yet to see one use precipice over earthquake. Would love it if a mod could come in and tag all the users I mentioned. I checked the smogon BM code page on how to do it, but it mentioned user ID and I didn't know where to find that.
 
Ellipse I don't see how manipulated a comment about better fakespeeders than diggs into diggs with 7 extra speed since by virtue fakespeeders only use speed for resists and opposing fakespeeders.

the context of my comment was jownage saying there's no better fakespeeder than diggs when if there was(for example higher attack and better coverage) it would either be hopelessly and unquestionably broken or diggs wouldn't be a thing here in the first place. The point of my comment was that even if you banned diggs; sableye, braviary, kangaskhan, stoutland, etc. would still reliably check setup sweepers. Actually I take back my statement there was a better fakespeeder than diggs and it was instabanned(megastarbucks)
 
1) that is word for word what you said. No manipulation
2) I used your post as a way to show that diggersby as it is is not the "line" between obviously broken and discussion worthy, as well as show how extreme statements on this topic is becoming
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
The reason that diggs is nothing like gene is that the opportunity cost is so high to beat so few possible counters. It can't run all of those moves, and by running one you miss out on so many others.
 
I wish I could get to a good system so I can join the party. Unfortunately, I'm on my mobile.

I'm all for a Diggersby suspect, but a Ban is an entirely different thing.

Digger can't hurt Rocky Helmet + Roost Skarmory, has 4MSS and Quagsire stalls it (Can't switch in though).

And of course, Sableye can easily find space to burn it.

Sure, if you build a team around it to specifically make it work, it gives you more than you want. Otherwise, it'll always remain powerful-but-not-too-powerful-so-as-to-make-it-broken.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
I've discussed Diggersby quite a few times, in this thread (here and here), and in the OM Teambuilding thread (here), and with the council in our convo. I've generally been in favor of keeping it because I think the metagame has developed enough viable checks and counters when it's operating at its best potential. ORAS did it some favors by giving it a lot of coverage, but I still stand by the old FakeSpeed/EQ/U-turn set because Diggersby will never be able to check everything it wants to. Quite simply, the burden shouldn't be on Diggersby to remove its checks/counters, it should be on the rest of the team. To me, Diggersby is most threatening on a well-oiled team.

A comment about the move tutors: they all make contact, so that means Diggersby is making itself more vulnerable to the trends that have developed to keep it in line, namely Rocky Helmet, Iron Barbs, and King's Shield/Spiky Shield, sometimes all stacked on one Pokemon (Ferrothorn can). My personal favorite is Tangrowth, which doesn't need a full defensive investment to stomach Fire Punch, punishes FakeSpeed with Rocky Helmet, takes half damage from EQ/PB, and does min 80% with 252 Atk EVs and Horn Leech (OHKO after Smash, 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock). You get HP back with Horn Leech and then again when you switch, putting Tangrowth close to full health (if not at full health) for the next time it comes in. No, I'm not saying run Tangrowth on every team to beat Diggersby, but it works for me with my core.

I think most of us can agree that the revenger set is Diggersby's best, which consists of Fake Out/Extreme Speed/Ground STAB/U-turn or coverage. The coverage options have allowed it to fuck up certain checks with the appropriate x4 attack (Lando-T, Gliscor, Gyarados, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Scizor) or slow them down with Knock Off. Luckily other standbys exist that don't fear these new moves (Skarmory, Sableye, Tangrowth, Mega Aerodactyl, Chesnaught, Rotom-W) more than they did with its old coverage (Wild Charge/Head Charge/EQ hit them harder, for example). Setup has risen because Diggersby is causing more switches, but there goes the best utility that Diggersby has to offer (checking other setup), and they'll want Protect/Focus Sash, which changes how they function even more.

Then there are the one-offs: Lovely Kiss/Yawn, Explosion, Foresight/Odor Sleuth, Super Fang, Feint, Disable, recovery, and other shit probably. These are the surprise factors that can catch an opponent at a crucial moment but also leave the Diggersby less able to perform at its best potential.

I'm going back and forth on this, but the above are my thoughts right now.
 

canno

formerly The Reptile
I will disagree with Skarm not fearing Knock Off - it lets Magnezone beat Shed Shell variants on Maggy + Bunny teams, which is a very good combo. Obviously non-shed shell don't mind but it makes shed shell not that great of an option on skarm.
 
i disagree with the verbage of diggs best set because the moment a set on pokemon with more than one viable set is accepted as being the best is the moment it stops being the best set because nobody prepares for other viable sets anymore.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
i disagree with the verbage of diggs best set because the moment a set on pokemon with more than one viable set is accepted as being the best is the moment it stops being the best set because nobody prepares for other viable sets anymore.
as a result of the nature of the meta (people running their own diggs and revenge killers), they are still best, and msot teams are still prepared.
 
I've never actually found FakeSpeed all that threatening -it's an immensely useful set, I get why people run it, but the thing that has always driven me up the wall about Diggersby is its set-up sweeper set, which was classically Earthquake/Extreme Speed/Stone Edge or Wild Charge/Shell Smash, and now can replace Earthquake with Precipice Blades for more power at the cost of Accuracy and more importantly can replace Stone Edge/Wild Charge with Knock Off, rendering it completely impossible to wall. I hate this thing so much, you have no idea, because there really isn't such a thing as a counter to it -the absolute closest it gets is that Sableye successfully switching in (Either on a predicted Extreme Speed or Shell Smash or via revenge-switching) can simply Topsy-Turvy it, but that's it.

There is literally no way to fully wall this set, and if you can't Phaze it or Topsy-Turvy it and can't destroy it effortlessly while surviving its hit, it'll just Shell Smash again and continue the sweep -any Skarmory set without Whirlwind fails to constitute a counter. Not only that, but Diggersby is resistant to Stealth Rock, so just forcing it out repeatedly doesn't constitute a meaningful counter at all, and now that it has Knock Off Ghosts are even less of an answer to it than they ever were -a big part of what makes other Pokemon that have similar utility to Diggersby more manageable is they lack the excellent combination of Normal+Ground STAB (Normal is resisted by Steel and Rock, Ground hits those both super effectively, so barring Levitate or Flying typing all that's left is Ghosts -oh wait, Knock Off) to laugh at anything trying to wall them. Most any reasonably bulky Ghost is less threatened by Ursaring, even if it's running Crunch, in spite of the increased Attack it has, and more significantly Ursaring has no good answer to myriad Steel and Rock types. Diggersby just makes those explode, and they constitute a majority of the Physical walls, with one of the most impressive exceptions to this rule having been banned. (Mega Slowbro)

I've always felt that Diggersby is broken from day frickin' 1 of STABmons, albeit I eventually concluded it wasn't omgwtfbbq-broken, but was in fact at that borderline of maybe just very very good maybe broken -and then it got Knock Off with ORAS.

And the fact that nobody is even discussing this set-up sweeper set, focusing exclusively on FakeSpeed, is pretty alarming to me -the set-up set is perfectly legitimate and very threatening, and yet people consider FakeSpeed to be so good they're entirely ignoring this other, completely different set.

Put another way: it has an alarmingly good set, and then it has the set it actually uses which is even better. Don't things get banned for that kind of "hey I can do multiple amazing things that have entirely different answers"? A lot of the "counters" or checks to FakeSpeed Diggersby people are focusing on are effortlessly destroyed by Shell Smash Sweeper Diggersby, and it's enormously problematic to mess up the prediction on such a powerful set-up sweeper -if you assume it's FakeSpeed Diggersby, switch in your "counter" and it Shell Smashes, and your counters to that are dependent on switching in on the Shell Smash, it's entirely possible that it's too late, gg, you lose.

In all honesty 99% of the time that I KO Diggersby it's because my opponent lets me. I don't mean high-level play stuff here: I mean they Extreme Speed my Focus Sash Bibarel while I Shell Smash, and then keep Diggersby in, apparently expecting to outspeed and KO, while I Extreme Speed and KO instead. Basic not-understanding-anything stuff.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
This is probably my last post before I decide on the suspect. As I noted earlier, I'm trying to take a liberal approach to bans now in favor of a better metagame rather than giving the suspect the benefit of the doubt. It's kind of a "the needs of many versus the needs of one" argument. Anyway, I'll ask you this:

Will the metagame be better off without Diggersby in it?

I leave it to you to define "better off."
 
Yes stabmons will be better off without diggersby this thing is basically mega loppuny on steroids and even skarm can't check it reliably if it has wild charge and don't forget about coverage diggers being broken.
 
kind of related but as has already been mentioned an argument of "keeps the meta glued together" isn't logically sound.
  1. This point(analogy really) assumes that diggs is broken because in general that's the only reason ppl resort to such an argument. Let' say you have a rotten pillar(diggs) that's supporting a rotten ceiling(OP set up). Do you keep the pillar or get rid of the pillar and ceiling?
  2. If there's only one thing keeping a meta together the thing being kept in check is broken(technically this situation isn't happening here even though some ppl seem to think it is but this is just a paragraph against the argument) and needs to be banned regardless of whether or not the "glue" is broken.
  3. If a pokemon is S rank(or S+ in diggs case) merely for countering or even more so if it's only checking a mon or substrategy(such as setup or stall breaking) the mon or sub strategy is broken. While this isn't the only reason diggs is S+, this is a paragraph against the argument not the mon.
 
Diggersby is certainly the best card in the deck, but it is checked by a variety of things depending on its movesets.

Most pro-ban arguments here seem to assume that Digger can somehow use Setup + 5 Moves. Digger suffers from a severe case of 4MSS.

If it doesn't set up, Skarmory counters it. If it isn't lucky in a pinch, Quagsire checks it. If it doesn't have Ice Punch or Setup, Landorus-T counters it. If it doesn't have Fire Punch, Ferrothorn checks it. Sableye can also easily nudge in a burn most of the time.

If we're going to suspect Diggersby on OM Mash up 6 Move Battling + STABmons, I say ban it.
 
I didn't notice any arguments involving set-up plus 5 moves. I saw a ton of people talking about Fakespeed and how it can potentially counter the majority of its checks or counters with the right moveset, all of which are legitimate movesets, and then I came in and talked about a specific 4 moves set that isn't walled effectively by anything except maybe Quagsire. Also

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 169-201 (42.8 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 172-204 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah, with Leftovers+Recover Quagsire can stall through these for quite some time to come, but even aside from Precipice Blades

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

offering Diggersby the potential to push right on through anyway, that's not very helpful regardless. Unaware also ignores negative modifiers on the foe, so this Physically Defensive Quagsire's roof is

0 SpA Quagsire Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Diggersby: 152-180 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO

hoping this Burns or crits, because even if Diggersby has Shell Smashed literally six times in a row for no sensible reason, this is the best it can do -and Precipice Blades has good odds of 2HKOing it, severely hurting the idea that Quagsire constitutes an actual check. And if we're saying Quagsire is a check/counter in the sense of switching in even on an attack, Precipice Blades wrecks that idea -barring it missing or low rolling Diggersby will 2HKO Quagsire.

And, again, even if each individual set is reliably counterable and not banworthy, Diggersby can do several things, with different answers to different things -nobody has even discussed any form of Banded Diggersby, which laughs at Quagsire without need of Precipice Blades, which is a third dangerous thing Diggersby can do, in addition to FakeSpeed and Shell Smash Sweeper. Several Pokemon have been banned in OU because of a combination of diversity and firepower -this describes Diggersby exactly, and it throws in +2 priority into the mix and ludicrous set-up in the form of Shell Smash.

It's not like there's any Ghosts that constitute a real counter. If there were some Physically oriented Water, Ice, or Fighting typed Ghosts, which would be able to push their own STAB super effective priority through because they'd be immune to Extreme Speed, those would all potentially constitute checks or counters -but the closest the meta gets is Jellicent (Not Physical) and Froslass. (Not good) Even before Diggersby got Knock Off it would do stuff like

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Wild Charge vs. 28 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 192-226 (71.6 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

this to Gengar, and now it can hit them with a 100~ BP super effective move -I don't even need to calc that to tell you it's a OHKO. Replace Gengar with a bulkier Ghost, and it's still got problems.

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 258-304 (90.8 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Yeah, after one Shell Smash Diggersby has a nearly 50% chance of OHKOing Eviolite Dusclops that has significant bulk -and of course it loses its Eviolite. This is one of the bulkiest Ghosts short of Giratina, ever, so there's not much point to trying to find any other Ghosts that might constitute a check or counter, beyond Sableye, which has been repeatedly brought up and is a check to Diggersby, but saying an S+ rank threat is a check to Diggersby doesn't sound like an argument that Diggersby is balanced -Sableye is amazing at what it does and a perfect fit for countering Diggersby and it's just a check?

And there are so many Pokemon that Diggersby essentially invalidates, either by virtue of Diggersby annihilating them or by virtue of Diggersby replacing them -if FakeSpeed is an important niche there's no shortage of Pokemon baying at the walls, looking for the opportunity to shine, and same for Shell Smash Extreme Speed.

I just don't see how Diggersby can be healthy for the meta -and as Throbulator pointed out, it's not even sensical to say Diggersby "holds the meta together". How? By being so broken other broken stuff never gets a chance to matter? How do we even know these "other broken" things are actually broken, if nobody's bothered to look for other ways to deal with them because Diggersby already does that job just fine and a whole bunch of other things besides?

So I'm all for banning Diggersby and always have been and have never heard a good argument to the contrary.
 
I already mentioned that Diggersby is powerful. The fact that a lot of things can check it stands true.

A lot of walls cannot switch into it at first, agreed. But once its moveset is figured, it becomes vulnerable to stall.

Quagsire is the primary check. Your calculations are nice and good, but why assume that Quagsire will switch in on a Precipice Blades? Why would it not switch in on a SS, then Toxic Digger and Protect + Recover as needed?

Why would the opponent not double switch into his Sableye looking for a chance to burn? Your Shell Smash set fails to outperform Topsy Turvy Sableye.

And nobody would 'look for other ways'. FakeSpeeding is an essential part of STABmons. If Digger goes, I can assure you that other FakeSpeeders will take its place.

If you ban all of them, the Meta would become a setup festival with no reliable checks. That's why it's being constantly mentioned that Digger is the 'cornerstone' of STABmons.
 
And nobody would 'look for other ways'. FakeSpeeding is an essential part of STABmons. If Digger goes, I can assure you that other FakeSpeeders will take its place.

If you ban all of them, the Meta would become a setup festival with no reliable checks. That's why it's being constantly mentioned that Digger is the 'cornerstone' of STABmons.
OK. At what point did I say "ban the FakeSpeeders" and not "Ban Diggersby"? At what point did I ever push the FakeSpeeding as what makes Diggersby broken? And in what way does misrepresenting my quote act as an actual argument? "Other ways" includes "other Pokemon", so responding that Diggersby will be replaced by other FakeSpeeders is just reinforcing what I said -that if Diggersby goes the meta won't necessarily destroy itself.

In fact, you're asserting the meta will effortlessly adapt and not even miss Diggersby. How is this an argument against banning Diggersby?

I already mentioned that Diggersby is powerful. The fact that a lot of things can check it stands true.
This depends on how you define a check, which you've never given a clear description of your definition, and a key part of my point is that actually switching in on Diggersby doesn't work unless you predict correctly -there is literally no Pokemon, in the entire game, period, that is a 100% reliable check to Diggersby. There are Pokemon that, if you predict correctly, can switch in and drive Diggersby out, but that's it, and that's a very shaky argument for saying Diggersby isn't broken.

And at no point has anyone presented an actual, 100% reliable switch-in check or counter for Diggersby to disprove my assertion no such one exists. You still aren't doing any such thing -you're asserting "hey perfect prediction can check Diggersby". And? How does that prove Diggersby isn't broken, or over-centralizing, or whatever you want to call "bad for the meta"?
 
Pangoro @ Black Belt
Scrappy
-Sword's Dance/Snatch(if you think you can predict well enough)
-Mach Punch/Close Combat
-Knock Off
-Gunk Shot/Mach Punch

basically the premise of the set is simple. set up or snatch a SS and destroy things with koff, Gunk Shot, or Close Combat and deal with Sableye with Mach Punch(does KO at +2). The only thing he wishes he had was an ability to reliably SS.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
This is a huge misconception and I am going to attempt to clear this up right now:

Being forced to run a fakespeeder isn't a problem when its as good as diggersby, but being forced to run one with no longevity (ursaring) or one with much less power (stoutland and the others) makes it much worse.

My biggest fear in the post diggersby ban is not a ban on certain sweepers, but a ban on a type or moves because of the number of mons that can easily sweep at a moments notice. Without diggersby as an easy check to those mons, they run rampant. This isn't just 3 or 4 mons we are talking about, this is almost every mon with access to normal moves or high powered stabs, setup, and the ability to beat Sableye or Quagsire (or even not). Mega Garchomp, Salamence, pretty much all dragons actually, Azumarill, Gyarados, Togekiss, Gardevoir, Yanmega, Meloetta, etc. are all mediocre because of the presence of such a low risk high reward threat, but without that, things become problems. How the hell does stall stop Cincinno? Kangaskhan? You don't. Problem #1 with diggersby.


You guys are saying that arguments regarding diggersby's banning making the meta bad are useless on principle, but the scale of this is so much bigger than ANY of us has ever seen before. The question is this: If you have a bad wall and a bad roof, you get rid of both. If you have a bad wall and a bad house, your only option is to leave it be unless you want to get a new house, and we aren't getting a new stabmons; this is what we have been given. We can try to replace the house, meaning ripping apart the entire meta and building it again from scratch by banning moves or types (which is the only way to alleviate the issue) or we can do our best with the house we got. I say we do the best we can with what we have been given.
 
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