The Legend of Korra (Spoilers ITT)

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is avatar done as a series?

as in, are they not going to get money to do it anymore????

i heard some of the episodes this season were affected by budgetary concerns so im curious if they're just scrapping the series in general as well
yes, no, and maybe

korra comics are in the pipeline according to twitter. bryke also said several months ago that they would like to return to the avatar world in the future...but not right now. they want to work on some other projects for a while and will make more avatar if they ever feel like it.

edit and re:budgetary concerns, I think if they just would nut up and make some official toys/merch they would have better revenue and consequently would not have to worry about budget cuts as much
 

TheValkyries

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tl;dr let people read into it what they want to because it shouldn't affect your enjoyment of the show that some people think that the end scene was romantic if you only see it as a friendship
I mean I agree with you to a point, but what I'm ultimately saying here is that the ending blatantly shows two people in love, I mean its undeniable, but what is patently deniable is any previous sexual attraction/tension, and that a sexual relationship MUST necessarily follow from two people being in love.

The ending is clearly ambiguous as to what their future relationship will look like, but people are projecting their interpretation as being the only way. "Oh they didn't have them kiss because they're on a network that doesn't push boundaries" when this is a network that built itself off of ren and stimpy, and rocko's modern life, and spongebob, all of which are shows they are still airing. Or your insistence that I absolutely am certain that their relationship is strictly platonic, when in fact I'm arguing that you cannot be certain to any degree.

To me this ending is one of the best notes Korra's ever played by blurring the lines between the false dichotomy of "platonic OR romantic". It's a beautiful sentiment that isn't intimated often enough by art outside of MAYBE like 21 and 22 Jump Street (Which obviously played it tongue in cheek). Perhaps, this direction could've stemmed from Brike recognizing the shipping community, and offering them a counterpoint to their beliefs of what love and relationships are. If this were the case I would take back what I said about pandering in a heartbeat, because it is a direction that stays true with the intentions of Korra throughout: Giving the fans a sequel but not a carbon copy. Mirroring but not reflecting.

So yeah, I guess I am being kinda harsh here because you're certainly allowed to interpret it any way you please, but to me I feel like the majority of the people are missing the underlying point being made here by the show. And that their reasons for missing this point lay in realms of projecting their own personal fantasies onto the events that occurred, which is fine and is what art's all about, but the implications of what those fantasy's are is worrying on other levels. So you can see why it's kind of a big deal to me and why I want to try and have this conversation about the ending.
 

vonFiedler

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If fiction is now a medium that only exists to make as wide a variety of people happy as possible, then I want out.

---The Big Rant---

Recently I was able to finally talk a friend of mine (a professional writer) into watching Avatar. I was only able to do this by pretty much forcing him to marathon them with me. Well, obviously he loved them, and we just got up to the start of Balance. And while he agreed that Spirits was the best season of the series so far, he still didn't think that Change was bad. And I guess it's not a relatively bad season of tv, certainly not animation. The villains are good, the animation and fights are still amazing... I'm sorry but I just can't seriously defend this season without hearing Sokka saying "but at least the effects were decent". There was no character development, early episodes ranged from boring, inane, to pointless, and while it really picks up in the end the reuse (and misuse) of not one but two iconic ATLA settings in the final episode just reeks of laziness that turns me off in a big way. Also sometimes its just incredibly stupid, like Jenora asking Kai to free the bison before freeing her when a bison is in her cage. I mean I get it, I saw 5 minutes of Two Broke Girls the other day and I wanted to kill myself. I'd love to live in a universe where the storytelling displayed in Change was below average, but I don't.

On the other hand I personally enjoyed almost all of Balance, even most of the finale. But it was a worse season than Change. Far, far worse.

If it wasn't a season of Avatar, but the first season of a new show, I would assume that the writers were completely incompetent. And I can't totally dismiss the possibility. But there are other factors at work here. Yes, each character in this season could get a single wall of text devoted to how pandering to the fanbase ruined them. But y'know what, I guess Air wasn't perfect either and I'm not sure how you could make it so. So I'm going to focus on how Nickelodeon executives probably sabotaged the potential this season had for greatness.

Cause that's the worst fucking part; with minimal rewrites, Balance could have be at least as good as Air. It feels like a season of tv written during a writer's strike. In almost every episode you can see bits that probably would have been changed with a rewrite or two, editing that likely never occurred given the speed the season was made with and the funding that was cut. For instance, as I rewatched the first episode (probably the best episode of Balance), it struck me that the Governor accused Kuvira of only wanting his province for its ore. But she doesn't. She wants every province. The audience knows this already, and the Governor should know it given that he knows Kuvira's tactics with the many other provinces she has taken. The line exists as an obvious analog to war for oil, hell ore even sounds similar, which subconsciously vilifies Kuvira in the minds of the audience, but as I said it just doesn't work for this story at all. This line isn't a massive fuckup; it's rather small really, but it's the kind of thing that gets caught in the editing process. A process that was greatly hindered in Balance.

Without Kuvira, Balance would have been an absolute train wreck. Rather even, without Zelda Williams it would be. Holy christ, get this woman a voice acting career. She's a rare villain that you feel like you'd want to follow in real life. She brings a sheer human magnetism to her character that rivals even Azula, while at the same time being (generally) uplifting, positive, and sympathetic.

But she's also the worst written villain in the series by far. And I don't mean her dialogue and scenes are bad, though some are. I mean everything written around the character from an outside perspective is exploitative, vapid, and at odds with her character. Even when I called the episode where she took Zaofu fantastic I recognized and was wary of these writing cracks, I just hoped that the finale would bring it all together somehow. It didn't. Kuvira as a characters seem to be whatever the script needs her to be at a given point in time, without regards to future character development or continuity. Does she need to be likeable? Give her a sympathetic backstory and have Zelda Williams sell it. Does she need to be disliked? Ethnic cleansing! And also I guess she was supposed to be like Korra the whole time??? It's like there are countless different Kuviras that all have different personalities.

So I'm going to do something different from last season's analysis. I'm going to be constructive, making Balance as good as possible with as few changes as possible.

1. Get rid of Kuvira's AM BAD GUY moments
Here's a fun exercise. Make a list of all the evil things Kuvira has done. Now separate it into two columns; things we see her do, and things we are told she has done. Yeah... see what I did there? All we really know about Kuvira is that she was an orphan who never wanted to see people suffer. So why is she also creating political gulags and doing ethnic cleansing? Little asides here and there, even Korra telling Zaheer that Kuvira is "the worst dictator the earth kingdom has ever seen" (guess Chin wasn't so bad really), only exist to exploit viewer's subconscious minds. This is generally bad writing as a rule, but when it creates plot holes involving character motives (the worst kind of plot hole) it is atrocious. This is an easy fix. Get rid of them. They add nothing to the season.

Now let's move onto things we see her do. The first really evil thing Kuvira does is also one of the worst villain cliches; she is bad to her officers. The way she treats Varrick and Bolin is just not very logical. Clearly Bataar Jr. could work with the spirit vines even if Varrick didn't want to, which would keep two geniuses in her employ. Meanwhile when Bolin, a supposed member of her "inner circle" second guesses her plans (y'know, the job of an inner circle), she just becomes a dick and threatens Bolin with reeducation. Which, great job, gets him to betray her. It's not just that incidents like these are stupid of Kuvira, they conflict with the Episode 1 Kuvira who offered redemption to bandits, and the Episode 6 Kuvira who personally faced the Avatar so her men wouldn't have to.

Now since in a good season 4 Kuvira wouldn't be sending people to reeducation camps or forced labor, Bolin never clashes with her over this, and we never have to wonder how stupid Bolin (and genius Varrick) is for not noticing these things. Rather, Varrick talks Bolin into betraying Kuvira out of fear over the spirit vine technology. Bolin is already torn between his genuine respect for Kuvira and his love for Opal, but he also respects Varrick, and this pulls him over the line. Now since Zhu Li would later try to sabotage the spirit gun, instead we could have Bolin and Varrick leak intel to Zhaofu, or sabotage mechs, hell, even just deserting (which they do anyway) would be grounds for punishment. If Bolin and Varrick betray Kuvira, then her punishment of them is justified while also vilifying Kuvira. Since Bolin is a well loved main character, it doesn't matter if Kuvira's actions are justified or not. But it makes her a much more effective villain. And again, this could all honestly be a simple reordering of events in episode 5. Small changes, big impact.

Taking over Zhaofu is a move genuinely motivated by ego, even though Kuvira likely tells herself that it is for the greater good. This is all fine. Kuvira's motivation for taking Republic City is not. For someone who disliked the Earth Queen so much, it sure is strange that she'd feel the same way about Republic City. The strangest thing? Villains in all three previous seasons expressed what a bad and corrupt place Republic City was, and the redemption of Republic City was a major theme of Air. Kuvira's primary motivation is already supposed to be that she wants to protect the weak, so why the fuck wasn't she motivated by a desire to save Republic City from its gangs and inept government? This would have also made her attempting to kill Bataar Jr. somewhat more reasonable as opposed to not at all, but frankly I wouldn't mind if that plot point had been dropped entirely (and yeah what was Jr.'s beef with his family?).

Slight dialogue changes and reordering would make Kuvira the ambiguous villain that the finale was clearly going for. As is she is not.

2. Get rid of the poison subplot
I cannot fathom how a whole season finale later that the poison could still be such a fucking bad plot device. To begin with it was an awful plan by a usually effective villain (yeah, put the Avatar in the Avatar State, what could go wrong?). And in Balance, it took what looked like could be a fascinating journey of self-reflection and turned it into an easily solvable physical problem. Cool as shit phantom Korra? Fucking went nowhere. But even after episode 4, the poison just HAD to come back in the form of the worst line in the series;

"I had to know true suffering so that I could learn to care about others"

WHAT THE FUCK

Cause Korra has never known true suffering. Not when her bending was taken away, which was clearly a rape metaphor, made her possibly suicidal, and even Aang called it her lowest moment. But ok, that was cleaned up pretty quickly so maybe we can ignore that. How about when she lost all of her previous lives? I mean DAMN. And that didn't fucking come back. She lost a massive piece of herself there. But a physical malady, no, that's true suffering.

And not caring? Did she not care in When Extremes Meet, when she fought for the non-benders that Tarlok was oppressing? Did she not care during the Civil War, about her tribe or her father? Ok, how about an example from a season you guys actually like. Tell me she didn't care when she offered to sacrifice herself for the Air Nomads.

People complained about her character development at the start of Spirits, which was bs as Air didn't have any character development, but this is ok? It's a clear nod to that rancid notion that Korra hadn't suffered as much as Aang. Ironically this season proves what I've always been saying, that all of Aang's problems were self-inflicted and Korra would have just sorted Sozen out; she just did with Kuvira. Besides which debating which character has suffered the most just comes across as the most emo thing ever.

Instead, send Korra on a spiritual journey dwelling on the words of Zaheer and previous villains. This is honestly what I thought they were going for before the poison came back. Zaheer talked about how an Avatar wasn't necessary, one threat keeps popping up after another, and even Toph echoes these sentiments. This would make Toph's inclusion in the season much more natural rather than just a poison radar. In Spirits Korra had to disconnect herself from her expectations of what the Avatar is expected to be and to become her own Avatar; Balance should have been her discovering what kind of Avatar that is. Spirits was a character revolution; Balance should have been a character solidification.

So what SHOULD she have learned? That while she is an instrument of change, she also needs to be a light touch. She suffered while she expected everyone to trust and love her actions all the time. She can't force people to be happy or force the world to be perfect anymore than Aang could realize his dream with Republic City. Mind you, this subtext is mostly there already; it's just covered up by all the poison shit. And emphasizing this point is especially important, because you want to...

3. Show us how Kuvira is like Korra
This was the biggest "excuse me" moment of the finale. Korra breaks out the "we're not so different, you and I". And not because it's a bad idea. It's a great idea! Korra, who has learned all of the things I described above, could pass this wisdom onto Kuvira. Korra could see Kuvira much like she was in earlier seasons, overly eager to help people and frustrated when they don't appreciate it. Kuvira likewise has the power to change the world, but can do damage instead by forcing the world to be ideal (in a way, this is what totalitarianism is). Amon wanted to be the Avatar, Unalaq wanted to be an anti-Avatar, Zaheer wanted no Avatar, and Kuvira could have been a reflection of the Avatar.

But that's not really what happened. Partly because of points 1 and 2. But also because we just never learned that much about Kuvira. And we never saw her bleed. It's easy to say that Korra and Kuvira are ambitious, but since when did Kuvira rush into things without thinking? On the contrary, she always came across as an incredibly calculating and intelligent villain, just look at all she accomplished. If you wanted that to be true, show us some failure. Zelda could make it work and still be likeable.

Show us this orphan who suffered so much. Show us her frustration with proud provincial heads who don't want her help, and idiotic world leaders who want a character as fucking awful as Prince Wu to rule. Hurt her when she loses Bolin and Varrick. Show us an increasingly desperate character trying to save the world from itself. Then and only can Korra and Kuvira bond in the way they did in the finale. Spirits worked because two characters had two separate arcs, and one was able to impart what he learned onto the other. We needed to see Kuvira's arc, instead we were just told about it (like with much of her character).

4. Redeem Kuvira
Make no mistake, Kuvira was NOT redeemed at the end of season 4. She just went to jail. Even Zaheer got a little closure. Outside of comics Kuvira will get nothing. And frankly, it's not even a remotely realistic scenario anyway. Sure, they could execute her for war crimes (which I will ignore from here on because point #1). But the thing is, Ozai's imprisonment was able to be enforced because a new Fire Lord was there to enforce it, and because the Fire Nation army was crippled. Even then in the next comics trilogy there will be repercussions for this.

Kuvira was a charismatic and loved leader to her troops, troops that are still standing right outside of a city that just surrendered. Holding or executing her would only make her a martyr. Kuvira is required to bring balance back to the world. And this is where Korra's bonding with her really becomes important. What if Kuvira had been the one to call for local elections? In the short term she could still provide protection and food, and in the long term the Earth Nation becomes free of both monarchy and totalitarianism. History would ultimately be kind to Kuvira, but only because of the intervention of the Avatar.


Only point #3 would really take new scenes being added, maybe one cut episodes worth even? But it'd have been so simple to make this season great, and such a shame that it's not. It really depresses me. The ideas are there in the finale, but they aren't consistent with the writing of the season.
 
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I decided to rewatch Korra after the finale happened to try and find foreshadowing for some later things, and also to compare and contrast.

I finished Book 1 earlier today, which means that...

Oh no...

Not this piece of shit season.

Actually though fuck Book 2. It started out shitty, had a decent middle, and ended with nonsensical bullshit pulled out of nowhere. And the main goal of the season seemed to be to make every character as unlikable as possible (except Bolin).

Hopefully I can get to the actually good seasons quickly but this is probably going to kill my momentum.

Oh god 7 minutes in and it's worse than I remember it. This dialogue is downright terrible.
 
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I actually agree with quite a lot of what you've said. While Balance was visually interesting in terms of bending and scenery (Operation Beifong has one of the best fight scenes of both series IMO), something felt off while I was watching this season, and you've hit the nail on the head completely.
Out of curiosity, if you think that Spirits was written so well, why do you think that it seems to have such a poor reception from many of the fans? I, for one, felt parts such as the Eska/Bolin nonsense, Bolin's life as a "mover star", and the hamminess of Unalak and Vaatu to be weak points that typically made me cringe. Sorry if you've addressed this before, if you have I'll look back through the thread to find it.
 
Yeah, Spirits wasn't written well at all...the dialogue was bad, the characters were aggravating (they even made Aang of all people unlikable, and he's not even in the season), and the plot was generic at best and completely ridiculous at worst (Unavaatu is a good example).
 
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yond

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I don't know about the rest of you, but I think this shipping issue once again boils down to Mako being a huge pussy. I mean.. if he had just been more stern and put Asami and Korra in their places when they were dating him they wouldn't have run off together in the first place. Easily the worst character in the show ugh
 
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vonFiedler

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Out of curiosity, if you think that Spirits was written so well, why do you think that it seems to have such a poor reception from many of the fans?
A combination of treating characters like acquaintances, wanting female characters to be docile waifus, their too tight fedoras hurting over a stinging portrayal of teen dating, and in general a complete blindspot for the original series makes the Avatar fanbase possibly the worst in the world. I would not be surprised if Bryke never returned to this franchise, I probably wouldn't.

I mean for fuck's sake, they are the kind of mouth breathers who would almost double post just to talk shit, all while saying nothing of value.

My lengthy defense of season 2 can be found earlier here (thanks Layell for the link)
 
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vonFiedler

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Sorry if it's harsh, I was asked and that's the answer.

Critics universally applauded Spirits for its mature storytelling. I don't know how ethical the children's television journalism industry is, but either way they are right. A good story can be fun and goofy. It can be filled with characters we'd like to be friends with, and relationships that always succeed. That is the gist of what "fans" wanted out of Spirits and didn't get. But really great stories challenge us. They have flawed characters that overcome their problems, grow and change, so that we can overcome our problems, grow and change. Spirits delivered in that regard in a way that no other season did.
 
Sorry if it's harsh, I was asked and that's the answer.

Critics universally applauded Spirits for its mature storytelling. I don't know how ethical the children's television journalism industry is, but either way they are right. A good story can be fun and goofy. It can be filled with characters we'd like to be friends with, and relationships that always succeed. That is the gist of what "fans" wanted out of Spirits and didn't get. But really great stories challenge us. They have flawed characters that overcome their problems, grow and change, so that we can overcome our problems, grow and change. Spirits delivered in that regard in a way that no other season did.
It's a kids show. Kids don't give a shit about character development.
 

yond

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what about the last airbender? It was incredibly geared towards kids and had amazing character development...
 

Layell

Alas poor Yorick!
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I recall some people itt, or in irc mentioning how they hope the comics help flesh out post s4 Korra.

I don't know if I even want that, this is the same comic that did this to us:

 
what about the last airbender? It was incredibly geared towards kids and had amazing character development...
The character development in Korra is on par if not superior to the character development in Last Airbender. Your expectations are just too high.

One of the two has an overarching story, one does not.
Story format doesn't ban you from developing characters, but assuming it did I could just name a different kids show with an overarching story. Alls I'm saying is you guys are riding this show's dick like it's the second coming when it's owned by Nickelodeon and that's silly as fuck.

Edit: Plus they don't even have the balls to have two girls twist their anime-ass lips together in the last two seconds of the show. Fuckin' if I wanted to watch two people of the same sex hold hands and look gayly into each other's empty fucking skulls I'd just jerk off.
 

verbatim

[PLACEHOLDER]
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Story format doesn't ban you from developing characters, but assuming it did I could just name a different kids show with an overarching story. Alls I'm saying is you guys are riding this show's dick like it's the second coming when it's owned by Nickelodeon and that's silly as fuck.
It does if the format is every episode is independent of each other.

I also challenge the random declaration of "it's funded by nick it can't be good". The two avatar series in general have been extremely different from nick's typical programming, to the point that I would argue this difference contributed to the decision to move Korra to online only.
 
It does if the format is every episode is independent of each other.

I also challenge the random declaration of "it's funded by nick it can't be good". The two avatar series in general have been extremely different from nick's typical programming, to the point that I would argue this difference contributed to the decision to move Korra to online only.
I never said it couldn't be good - just that you shouldn't expect it to be the greatest thing to ever grace television. Shit is better than like half the shit on the other channels and you nerds are declaring its storytelling to be doggy doo doo.
 

vonFiedler

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I recall some people itt, or in irc mentioning how they hope the comics help flesh out post s4 Korra.

I don't know if I even want that, this is the same comic that did this to us:
Haha, well I guess I didn't get into this debate before (what with only recently reading the comics). I thought they were fantastic though, they especially made Aang a very likeable and rounded character which I felt the series somewhat lacked.

In particular what didn't you like about The Search? Mother of Faces stuff aside, the stuff with Zuko's mother actually played out exactly the way my writer friend and I predicted during Zuko Alone.
 

verbatim

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You're diverting (and trying to imply that everyone in this thread is a nerd except you?) towards something that's not representative of this thread. Literally every post here has ranged from "I loved all of is" to "I generally liked it but x bothers me" to "x season was better".




To get back on topic, how do most people here feel about Bataar Jr.'s role in the season? After seeing him try to prevent the cannon from firing on Opal I was extremely surprised to not see a scene where Kuvira threatened and pushed him away the same way she did to Bolin and Varrick. Coupled with the non-chalant decision by Kuvira to sacrifice him (which, as von previously mentioned, helps to give Kuvira no real solid characterization [she doesn't want anyone to suffer, except people that are ethnically inferior, people who disagree with her, and people who she can throw away for "progress"]), I feel like he might be one of the characters that originally had a more important role before they had to cut some episodes.
 
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Layell

Alas poor Yorick!
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Haha, well I guess I didn't get into this debate before (what with only recently reading the comics). I thought they were fantastic though, they especially made Aang a very likeable and rounded character which I felt the series somewhat lacked.

In particular what didn't you like about The Search? Mother of Faces stuff aside, the stuff with Zuko's mother actually played out exactly the way my writer friend and I predicted during Zuko Alone.
I do agree the majority was fine, but I think the stuff that most irked me was:

1. The method to which Zuko's mom was actually banished, she sort of threatens a poison and is then kicked out without much fanfare.
2. How Zuko's apparent half sister is sort of thrown under the rug, they don't really do much with the idea, why even bother having the kid?
3. Jerking around Zuko's parentage was a huge dick move, character motivation for this was really silly.


I have no idea how much the comic team got feedback from the creators, but I do think it served its purpose well. It's just a shame it took this dang long for us to discover what happened to Zuko's mom. Maybe I should pull a reread but this was my lasting impression on it.
 

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