Serious The Atheism/Agnosticism thread

mattj

blatant Nintendo fanboy
My definition of god actually is "the creator of this reality". I can't think of a reason why the God of the Bible couldn't have a completely natural, understandable, repeatable explanation. But how would the hypothetical fact that our cosmic programmer is mortal or finite have any bearing on whether or not the belief in a cosmic programmer is compatable with atheism or agnosticism? A mortal cosmic programmer is as much of a god as Jesus because he would have done the same incredible things that make Jesus worthy of deification.Aren't many gods in many religions in some aspects mortal or finite? I think our monotheistic God is the exception because he has to fill all the roles normally filled by many more finite deities.
 
does anyone hate their parents for taking them golfing?

seriously i've been forced to go golfing on sundays when i just want to stay in, play video games and masturbate

i hate golfers, they're so narrow-minded. i'm a proud ateeist
This may be the best post on any forum ever.

OK, here is my best effort.

A conscious experience of the universe is an experience similar to my own. Explaining this in any other way seems futile. Hopefully, you will get what I mean from this, otherwise you can ask questions, but maybe you have no soul or something?

If a computer simulation can generate a conscious experience of the universe, since a computer simulation is just information, it suggests that information alone can generate a conscious experience of the universe.

If information alone generates a conscious experience of a universe then no computer simulation truly generates the conscious experience of the universe because the information exists before the simulation simulates it. The information exists in the code and input and the simulation is really only a method for presenting the information for human consumption.

Multiple representations of the same information creating separate consciousnesses is an odd concept.. Of course this is outside of the realms of verifiability, but it just kinda sounds silly. In the short story you linked there, modifying the universe is a change in input, you now are dealing with different information. If the information is the source of consciousness then you havent actually changed the first universe, you are just now dealing with some other universe. If the representation of the information is the source of consciousness then perhaps you have changed the universe..? I dunno, it sounds silly..
We're all in the matrix, none of this is real!
 
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Adamant Zoroark said:
One time I even lied about my religious beliefs on an application to a private college (Baylor University) because I feared that my admission odds would decrease if I told them my true beliefs.
What? There's just so much weird stuff going on in this single sentence that I don't know where to start.

First of all, why would a college ask about your religion in an application? I don't want to say "only in America", but... Okay, Wikipedia tells me that it's a Christian university in Texas, that explains a lot. Why would you even apply to a university that's not religiously neutral? Especially if you're an atheist yourself.

My second question was supposed to be "why would you fear that a university would reject you because you're an atheist", but the Christian university part pretty much answered that one too. However, I'm still getting the impression that religion is quite a big deal in America. I feel like it's socially more acceptable to believe in God than to be an atheist there, which seems extremely weird for a guy like me who lives in Finland, a country where just 15% of people aged 15-24 believe in God.

ON TOPIC: I'm an atheist myself. The amount of proof that says "there is a God" is zero, therefore I have no reason to believe in God, simple as that.
 
Even if there is no proof that God exists, is there any actual definitive proof that there isn't a God?
No, but basic logic doesn't work like that. I could come up with an idea of a new God, saying that it's so powerful that it has created all other Gods. You can't prove that it doesn't exist, so do you believe that it exists? Of course not, that would be pointless. Just like AnathemaDevice said, the burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim. If you say that X exists, you must provide proof that says so. If "prove that X doesn't exist" was a reasonable argument, we'd have to assume that every single claim ever made is true until proven false. That wouldn't be very clever now would it?
 

Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
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that cannot be how burden of proof works, otherwise you would never get to claim anything since justification must end at some point. you will eventually reach an axiom (whether you are religious or not): some assertion that cannot be proven. From such axiomatic propositions any argument must proceed.

Invoking burden of proof against someone's premises, therefore, is almost always begging the question.

http://thatmarcusfamily.org/philosophy/Course_Websites/Readings/Wittgenstein On Certainty.pdf

If, then, you would like to assert that it is not useful (pragmatic) to believe in God, as a way of moving past the problems with objections from evidentialism (i.e burden of proof), then does it follow that if "models of reality" that include God are in some way more useful (such as being simpler) that you ought to believe in God?
 

KM

slayification
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Yeah, you guys are really oversimplifying the whole "burden of proof" argument. I assume you are (rather incorrectly) referencing Russell's teapot, which does not, as many like to think, state that proof in an unprovable thing is ridiculous. From my rudimentary understanding of Russell's personal philosophy, he was rather defending his own atheism (see: What I Believe, Why I Am Not a Christian) than advocating for all to follow. The direct quote is here :

“If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.”
The first sentence is the only one that most people ever pay attention too, and they incorrectly draw from that that Russell is stating the insanity of believing in an improvable concept or object. However, it only states that "nobody would be able to disprove my assertion", not that the assertion itself is faulty. He is merely stating that it is impossible to disprove, not that this impossibility makes the claim itself invalid.

The next sentences tie in the analogy of the teapot with Christianity, certainly, but there is still no direct condemnation of the belief, merely of the lack of acceptance for those who do not believe and the power of cultural and societal norms in enforcing a belief which is neither true nor false - for simplicity, I will now call it "immutable". As I stated previously, Russell's focus was never on providing demonstrable proof of God's nonexistence or stating that a belief in god was nonsensical, merely on defending his own choice to be an atheist.

Furthermore, Russell provides a clear contrast between an immutable belief that is made up on the spot (e.g. the existence of an undetectable china teapot) and one that is steeped on centuries of cultural and societal practices and contains a huge percentage of the population that already believes it. It is precisely this difference between these two claims that is the reason we spend 20 pages on debating the existence of god, not the existence of a china teapot.

It is impossible to determine whether or not a belief in god is "valid" or "justified", but that does not mean that it is not worth analyzing the belief's utility. Branching off of what Myzozoa said, there ARE people who believe in god, and those who do not. It is up to us to determine whether the belief in a god is useful, and from then we can determine whether we should accept the immutability of the existence of god but believe in him anyway (perhaps with nothing more complex than Pascal's wager), to adopt a lifestyle that neither hinges on nor denies the possibility of the existence of god (see that one dubious Marcus Aurelias quote), or to follow Russell and merely accept the possibility but personally hold a lack of belief in the subject. The only beliefs that could theoretically be condemned are those that adopt a stance that denies the immutability of the existence of God - in other words, people who either blindly maintain the existence of God without accepting the possibility of nonexistence, and those that blindly deny the existence of God without allowing for the possibility of his existence. Probability is nigh irrelevant, because attempting to apply probabilistic logic to an improvable statement is impossible.

It follows, then, that the existence of religion is merely a function of the utility that that belief holds. With few exceptions, it appears as though countries with a lower dependence and occurrence of religion tend to be more prosperous and "happy", while poorer countries tend to lean on religion far more. Arguments can be made that this relationship is causal - in other words, that a belief in a higher power or a religion encourages and breeds social problems, poverty, and discrimination etc because of the doctrines and teachings of that religion - an argument that seems to support the "de-proselytization" or spreading of atheism. However, the argument can also be made that this relationship is merely corollary; that as countries "improve", they do not need religion to offer them promise of a good (after)life because their current life is wonderful anyway.

The overwhelming focus on existence on both the religious and atheist sides of this debate is rather ridiculous. The concept of a higher power will always be improvable, and no amount evidence one way or another will change that. The definition of god is inherently fluid and has already proved itself as such, so even an event like, perhaps, determining the exact reason the big bang happened and everything was created etc. etc. would only shift people's definition of god to a more abstract entity, not completely discount its existence. Similarly, no amount of useless posturing by AIG or any other proof-based ontological argument or even the existence of new evidence like a definitive proof of a world flood would change the existence of an inherently immutable concept.
 
I'm not sure OP realizes that Atheism is also a religion. A religion is simply the rules, routines and practices we undertake as part of holding to our beliefs. A Catholic, for example, goes to mass every Sunday, goes to confession, takes communion, etc. I'm not an Atheist so I can't speak to what their routines are, but they still have certain things they do and rules they follow as part of their religion.

Honestly, if you're hoping this thread will go anywhere, you have to somewhat involve other beliefs besides Atheism and Agnosticism. It's fine to discuss your challenges in holding to these beliefs, but those challenges usually relate to opposing viewpoints, which need to be addressed if you want discussion to be complete. Good luck with this, as religion threads in a forum are notoriously dangerous and almost always degenerate into something unpleasant.
I respectfully disagree with this post, as I am an atheist and have no special routines, rules, etc. that I follow. I simply have a lack of faith that does not allow me to believe in the intangible. That being said, I really wish I could believe, but have yet to hear any good arguments to convince me otherwise. I do believe the practice of religion is more than just "believing" in a God, like you stated the practices, routines, rules. However, I am simply an Atheist (or a non-believer in Deities) and I do not follow any special customs or traditions.

As far as closet Atheism goes, I think its better to open with yourself than hide it in fear of how others may react. My parents are Catholic and raised me that way, and even though I became an Atheist they do not treat me any differently. My Japanese wife also doesn't hold any particular beliefs and my family is okay with that as well. You never know until you try!

On a final note, I see nothing wrong this topic, and am looking forward to seeing everyone else's thoughts.
 

Jorgen

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The existence of God isn't really axiomatic, it's taken more as a foregone conclusion falling out of more basic assertions for those who maintain such a belief. Thomist arguments of causality and likelihood suggest that there's more basic, agreeable assumptions on which you must base the existence of God to be a reasonable person talking about it.

So in the case of the God question, asking for justification isn't unreasonable because it isn't a reasonable premise for which requiring justification just makes you a stickler.

RE: begging the question in treatment of axioms: Can you really apply this fallacy to treatment of axioms? I mean, it's not bad practice in general to say that some assertions are bad and must be justified as theorem from more basic assertions, there's nothing circular about it, let alone a firm conclusion about the assertion to make circular reasoning possible. You can't do it indefinitely and expect to get anywhere, but it's the point where you accept an axiom where what would normally be called circular reasoning kicks in and you just have to say "it's true because it's true, fuck off" (reason #1/a lot why logic is messier than we'd like it to be).
 

Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
"If the system signified, in its unitary form, is nothing more than a construction, this construction must be coherent: the internal probability of the argument signified is established in direct proportion to this coherence. Faced with the exigencies of positive demonstration, or of real experimentation, this notion of internal coherence may seem a disappointing kind of 'proof': we are nonetheless more and more inclined to grant it heuristic if not scientific status; one branch of modern criticism aims at reconstructing creative universes by the thematic method (which is the method appropriate to immanent analysis), and in linguistics it is the coherence of a system (and not its 'use') which demonstrates its reality; and without wishing to underestimate their practical importance historically in the life of the modern world, the examination of their 'effects' is far from exhausting Marxist or psychoanalytical theory, which owe a decisive share of their 'probability' to their systematic coherence."


It is interesting to note that propositions like:

1. The world is more than 5 minutes old.

2. Other minds exist.

3. Physical objects exist independent of a subject that perceives them.

Such propositions are useful if not true.

These propositions become more plausible if the existence of gods is granted (Berkeley for 2 and 3).

I will pause now, and edit more into this post, or perhaps make another post later. My worry, now, is that these posts will be read reductively as support for the existence of gods, rather than support for the rationality of believing that they exist.


Also if 'God exists' isn't an acceptable axiom, then what is? And why is that axiom acceptable?

Aquinas is invested in natural theology, I am not and for good reason too.
 
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Chou Toshio

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I respectfully disagree with this post, as I am an atheist and have no special routines, rules, etc. that I follow. I simply have a lack of faith that does not allow me to believe in the intangible. That being said, I really wish I could believe, but have yet to hear any good arguments to convince me otherwise. I do believe the practice of religion is more than just "believing" in a God, like you stated the practices, routines, rules. However, I am simply an Atheist (or a non-believer in Deities) and I do not follow any special customs or traditions.

As far as closet Atheism goes, I think its better to open with yourself than hide it in fear of how others may react. My parents are Catholic and raised me that way, and even though I became an Atheist they do not treat me any differently. My Japanese wife also doesn't hold any particular beliefs and my family is okay with that as well. You never know until you try!

On a final note, I see nothing wrong this topic, and am looking forward to seeing everyone else's thoughts.
Eh, but in Japan, religion largely exists for convenience. There is an overall sense of the importance of the ancestors, and paying respect to nature and those who have passed, but Shintoism (and Budhism in Japan) do not dictate principles or implement a system of ethics that affect a typical Japanese person's life. There is no call to belief or worship, and definitely no social pressure.

The Emperor is essentially the pope of Shintoism by doctrine, and the royal family does rites each day to pray for the well being of the people-- but to the typical Japanese person, he's just a really really nice guy who is the kind face to show the world and a PC+++ diplomatic of the country. Not a spiritual leader.

I think countries like Japan shed perspective on what spirituality can mean-- and that the imposing nature of jewdeo-Christianity-Islam is not at all the default to how it works as a social entity across cultures.
 

Cresselia~~

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Eh, but in Japan, religion largely exists for convenience. There is an overall sense of the importance of the ancestors, and paying respect to nature and those who have passed, but Shintoism (and Budhism in Japan) do not dictate principles or implement a system of ethics that affect a typical Japanese person's life. There is no call to belief or worship, and definitely no social pressure.

The Emperor is essentially the pope of Shintoism by doctrine, and the royal family does rites each day to pray for the well being of the people-- but to the typical Japanese person, he's just a really really nice guy who is the kind face to show the world and a PC+++ diplomatic of the country. Not a spiritual leader.

I think countries like Japan shed perspective on what spirituality can mean-- and that the imposing nature of jewdeo-Christianity-Islam is not at all the default to how it works as a social entity across cultures.
I guess I had the wrong impression towards how Japanese people view Shintoism.

I originally thought it was due to fear, alike the Taiwanese. As I see some Japanese people wearing a lot of those lucky charms on their bodies.

Taiwanese people, however, have 2 main categories.
1. Generally wear charms on their bodies because they fear that they won't be safe without them.
2. Wears charms because they were told to do so. (By a parent or other family members, since the family member have fear and want the kid to be safe.)
 

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

old gregg for life
Based on my own limited soul searching and life experience, it seems to me the foundations for ALL religion were laid out thousands of years ago as a good intentioned means of control. A vast majority of religions have very similar mythology and concepts of duality.
Duality is not a mere concept it is a mathematically proven reality.
British physicist Paul Direc hinted at it and Einstein proved it(Matter and Anti-Matter, respectively).

This is the part where I speculate:
I sense that the world before the deluge was advanced and harmonious. Many sources claim the great flood to be a myth but there is enough proof for me that there was indeed a great flood at the end of the last ice-age. After the great flood wiped out the majority of advanced culture then the remaining vestiges of sacred knowledge culminated a system of checks and balances(religions) to guide civilization back into the greatness that it had once obtained. Over the years, through indoctrination and written records, the true purpose of religion was perverted and lost upon the masses. People began to abuse these moral systems for sinister purposes and now we have a world at war with itself. The fact that very few cultures around the world maintain a spoken history is in itself mind boggling, as written knowledge is very much more open to interpretation and to tampering than spoken knowledge handed down through generations.

End Speculation

The world has known many gods and many demons; Humanity in its present form has been around much longer than any scientific community or authority is likely to admit. Ancient Sumerian tablets tell stories of those who came down from the heavens to fondle the Earth of its resources, but how could anything that Required minerals or chemicals be equivalent to the concept of a god? Human history is rich with mythology and most of the characters from different cultures are the representative of certain figures just with different names. Jesus is an extremely prominent figure that transcends cultures all across the world. There is a multitude of mythology surrounding a martyr who died for three days only to be born again that many cultures across the entire world hold belief in. This has been attributed to being an allegory dedicated to our Sun or God's Son, which ever you prefer. As the Sun's astronomical pattern of movements does have similarities with the story of God's Son; I try not to read too much into it all because nobody really knows for certain what is fact and what is fiction. I can say for certain that we do not exist simply because we are. I like to think we exist because we are meant to, for what ever reason. That statement goes beyond my personal need for purpose, that is more towards the effect that Everything and Everyone has some purpose. There is so much more to be discovered before we can return civilization to its former glory. There is so much more that must be learned. I liken this era of humanity to a teenager that just hit puberty. We are realizing that we can accomplish great things, but we have yet to learn that it benefits all to work together. Religion is one of the main things standing in the way of unification. Until people can either abolish religion or learn to accept others despite belief systems then we are doomed to perpetual conflict.

Regardless of belief we are all just people at the end of the day who need to eat, sleep, and shit. If everyone could go beyond trivial differences, let go of personal ego, and work toward a better world for future generations then we might learn something new. Until that day comes self fulfilling prophecies will be the norm. Hate begets hate and war begets war. Nothing new or truly prosperous will come from the current mentality of today's civilization and religion is a huge nutrient of the soil in which this mentality grows. I can not see religion being used for the purpose it was once created within the current paradigm. Religion is currently used for greed, fame, and power; regardless of how it was intended to be utilized.
 
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BenTheDemon

Banned deucer.
I think a lot of people cling to religion largely because they were conditioned to fear their feelings of doubt.
Pastors like to flip this, but I think a lot of people of religion are Atheists/Agnostic, but claim to be religious due to social and political pressure.
 
I think a lot of people cling to religion largely because they were conditioned to fear their feelings of doubt.
Pastors like to flip this, but I think a lot of people of religion are Atheists/Agnostic, but claim to be religious due to social and political pressure.
I think you are right in this.

I am agnostic because religion has not been proven to exist, and therefore I do not believe it. Call it narrow-minded, I call it limiting myself so I don't go mentally insane. That's why I just decided for myself to stick to the going 'if it's not been proven, it doesn't exist'.

See, technically it may even exist, because it also hasn't been proven that it doesn't exist. But if you start thinking like that, literally everything is possible. Let's say something really random. I fry a noodle, throw it in the air, and yell 'oink!', maybe something really strange will happen because it has never happened before under the exact same conditions. Think about how fire was discovered. It sounds retarded, but it has not been proven that, under every existing condition, it is not possible. Therefore, the moment I yell 'oink!', maybe a black hole will appear somewhere. Or a huge brick will spawn above my head out of nowhere. I find myself ridiculous that I sometimes think like this, but honestly, it might be possible. And so, unlimited things that may seem weird and impossible might be possible under certain conditions.

Idk, just my 2 cents.
 
I actually disagree with that notion Fluke. For all we know, a lot of stuff, like a god existing, might be just impossible according to the laws of the universe. You can't say something is possible, at least not in the philosophical sense, until you know more variables.

For example: I roll an undetermined amount of dice out of a bag. Is it possible it will roll a sum of three?

By your view, it would be possible; however, for all we know there may be 4 dice in the bag and a sum of three is actually impossible (the minimum 1+1+1+1>3). How can you coherently claim something is possible, when in actuality is wasn't?

Furthermore, just because something, like the set of events in the universe, is infinite (not that I agree it is) that doesn't mean anything is possible either. There are an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2, none are 5. x^2 goes to infinity as it grows or shrinks, none of it's values are negative.
 
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Chou Toshio

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I guess I had the wrong impression towards how Japanese people view Shintoism.

I originally thought it was due to fear, alike the Taiwanese. As I see some Japanese people wearing a lot of those lucky charms on their bodies.
Ah, omamori? It's true they are popular-- buying charms and putting them in cars or on bags. But it's more wishful thinking than fear. Something to share a feeling of care for a loved one, or remind yourself of your own extreme devotion to pass an entry test, or get a boyfriend. Not really fear-related, at least not in the modern day and age.
 
I actually disagree with that notion Fluke. For all we know, a lot of stuff, like a god existing, might be just impossible according to the laws of the universe. You can't say something is possible, at least not in the philosophical sense, until you know more variables.

For example: I roll an undetermined amount of dice out of a bag. Is it possible it will roll a sum of three?

By your view, it would be possible; however, for all we know there may be 4 dice in the bag and a sum of three is actually impossible (the minimum 1+1+1+1>3). How can you coherently claim something is possible, when in actuality is wasn't?

Furthermore, just because something, like the set of events in the universe, is infinite (not that I agree it is) that doesn't mean anything is possible either. There are an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2, none are 5. x^2 goes to infinity as it grows or shrinks, none of it's values are negative.
Hmm, yeah I get you. I feel like I'm contradicting myself a bit within my own post.
 
I've been a good Jew, I had a Bar Mitzvah and everything, and I want to respect what all of my ancestors believed in. But on the other hand, I love science, I believe that the world can be explained through logic. Really as a sign of respect and using history for evidence, you can believe in anything you want as long as you don't impose it on others, don't force them to convert (not trying to offend anyone, just saying). I try my best to balance both of them, I know the issue firsthand.
 
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I'm agnostic and don't really give any kind of cares if someone's religious or not. I just don't like the Hyper-Christian zealots who think everything is bad
 
I didn't think that this thread would still be kind of going by now. It's been a little over a month since the last post, but I think that this is worth saying.

It was about two years ago that I really found and got into the internet atheist community. Even then, it was obvious that the community was past its prime as a social movement, as few of the YouTube personalities I found actually updated very much anymore. Since then, I've been exposed more and more to the uglier side of the community, the parts that aren't interested in humanism but in bizarre ideologies. I've seen them appropriate and abuse the memes that served the community so well against religious extremists who threatened and continue to threaten the rest of us. The more people I see out themselves as completely socially unaware, the more I understand why people treat forum discussions like this like math class. I used to think, "Come on, you know what he/she means by that!" I'm not so sure about that anymore.

I wonder if/when Richard Dawkins will stop shooting himself in the foot.

A similar thing has been happening to the gaming community. When Jack Thompson waged his war on video games, it was easy for everyone to band together and demand substantial evidence for his claims that video games cause violence. Of course he had none. But when evidence did come up that certain video games can lower empathy and cause short-term aggression, it became clear that some people in the community would not have cared if there were evidence that video games outright caused violence. Their aim was not rationality at all, but to confirm their existing beliefs about their cherished pastime to justify anything that they did. This of course came full circle when they found themselves agreeing with Jack Thompson.

I wish NonStampCollector would stop retweeting Pat Condell.

Anyway, as far as burden of proof goes, this covers it pretty well. The whole "positive claim" thing is nonsense on a fundamental level because it smuggles in a statistical assumption that may not be warranted. Obviously it can still be a useful heuristic, but the consequences are what's important here. If you got injured in a car accident and someone wanted to pour a strange liquid into your wounds claiming that it would heal you, sure you'd invoke burden of proof. However, "burden of proof" doesn't give anyone license to barge into someone else's conversation and demand evidence for something that doesn't affect them. I think that that's the main thing that makes people uneasy about invoking burden of proof to begin with.
 
I'm agnostic, and the problem is both atheists and relegious people hate agnostics since we're one more person not helping them beat the 'other side'. Of course, this doesn't apply to all of them, just the ones I've encountered.
 
I suppose I have a question- why exactly are people atheists as opposed to agnostics? From what I can tell, the basis for most atheists being atheists is logical/scientific- i.e., "there is no proof of God therefore I do not believe in him." However, isn't it true that there might be the tiniest chance that God does, in fact, exist? Scientific facts are not in truth facts, but rather a statement that "we're 99% sure this is the way it is." Doesn't this mean that a modified version of Pascal's Wager effectively states agnosticism is superior to atheism, since we can never be 100% sure God doesn't exist? Sorry if I phrased anything offensively, I didn't mean to; I was just curious.
 

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