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If a pokemon isnt usable on the metagame it got banned to, thats of no concern of the OU tier council or of this forum section. The main goal is to provide a healthy OU meta (under the possibilities) so people can enjoy it making all playstyles somewhat viable. Saying if a poke would be viable in ubers when it could get banned in OU is extremely irrelevant.
Damn, this went to shit fast, lol. Damn, that sucks...
No definitely don't ban this froggy.
I love greninja, yes it is very good in OU, but definitely should not be banned. Greninja would not stand A CHANCE in ubers, this thing would be OHKO'd by nearly everything in the meta. In ou, M-Loppuny OHKO's a greninja with high jump kick. Not only that but M-Gallade destroy's this thing. Gunk shot is now a thing but if you needed to you could just ban gunk shot, and greninja's attack stat isn't that high. Greninja is also SUPER frail it can be OHKO'd buy a lot of things, take a look at this.
252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 524-620 (183.8 - 217.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Gallade Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 330-390 (115.7 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 302-356 (105.9 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 266-316 (93.3 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 452-533 (158.5 - 187%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 367-433 (128.7 - 151.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 558-654 (195.7 - 229.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 300-354 (105.2 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 384-452 (134.7 - 158.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 492-582 (172.6 - 204.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beedrill U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 270-320 (94.7 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
that's not even half of it..
Greninja is a amazing pokemon but its low base attack and special attack make it un ban worthy in my opinion. Now i think that the argument that greninja has no checks or counters is ridiculous people just dont understand that not everything has to have a hard counter. greninja is checked by everything faster than it and priority. When a challenging pokemon is presented to you learn how to play around it dont cry and ask for a ban. All it takes to kill greninja can be one sack or saving a scarfer the point im trying to say is that greninja is just to weak to ban and that people need to learn how to handle a pokem on a little more challenging just please stop complaining that it dosent have conters use your skill to conter a weak ass frog.
It doesn't have "low" base attacks when you count in the fact that it gets STAB on everything then is boosted further by Life Orb.
Also if you need to sac something to beat something all the time, surely that means there is a problem?
Pretty much anything scarfed can outspeed and one-shot him. What he can't OHKO usually beat his ass easily, and is so succeptible to priority moves (aside from bullet Punch and Aqua Jet, and it even depends on what type he is at said turn) that he hardly lives much and pretty much everyone uses something with priority, aside from Life Orb recoil, wich is what gives him some respectable power instead of an ''ok'' one. Sure, he is a good pokemon, but I just don't see him in Ubers.
I believe you are currently unqualified to post within this thread, so if I could direct you to the thread titled "Suspect Thread Etiquette [Read before Posting in Suspect Threads]", you might find several ways to improve upon your posts, or alternatively lurk more a bit. Its almost Christmas in New Zealand, so unless everyone wants me to spread the Christmas Cheer of Xmas Infractions, I suggest you read that thread, check to see if your post does what I said not to do, and then re-evaluate if you still want to proceed with your post. Remember, I'm not as nice as Haunter.
Greninja is a amazing pokemon but its low base attack and special attack make it un ban worthy in my opinion. Now i think that the argument that greninja has no checks or counters is ridiculous people just dont understand that not everything has to have a hard counter. greninja is checked by everything faster than it and priority. When a challenging pokemon is presented to you learn how to play around it dont cry and ask for a ban. All it takes to kill greninja can be one sack or saving a scarfer the point im trying to say is that greninja is just to weak to ban and that people need to learn how to handle a pokem on a little more challenging just please stop complaining that it dosent have conters use your skill to conter a weak ass frog.
The problem is though while it does have checks, non of those can really be used on offense/not really viable. Also Greninja does not have bad offenses at all
Kill Greninja. Balance and stall can adapt, but this thing destroys offensive teams lacking Klefki because they do not have the raw defensive capabilities to switch into it. Being able to just switch a move or two on your moveset and having completely different counters is not something we should be promoting. It has difficulties coming in because it is frail as glass, but that is easy to fix. What is hard to fix is its ability to destroy everything on offense.
I'm not too learned in ou in general but I have started recently and the one thing i noticed was greninja, the thing in question, was quite powerful. I didn't have the misfortune to play one (surprisingly) but 4 stab moves with almost unresisted coverage is pretty nice in and of itself, along with the fact that due to protean it doesn't even have to carry hydro/dark pulse to get a nice boost to its move, and it can run mixed so it's much harder to wall then other pokes. If you're going with the "priority kills it" argument you have to ask yourself the question of why you're letting greninja take a hit like that without switching, and frogs speed gives it plenty of opportunities to revenge kill/sweep portions of teams. Haven't really made a final decision but these are my first observations.
Disorient made some interesting points about why people actually want Greninja to be banned and I think everyone should read it before making their points: http://pastebin.com/94LLyhrq
I will for sure be voting ban. I don't care how many whiny gren fanboys shove in my face that he shouldn't be banned, if a mon can check like 95% of OU through RU then i want it out of my space. Greninja limits team building due to having maybe one or two passive counters and will pretty much always get a kill each game (more if well played) unless you use a really bulky check like chansey, alomomomomola, and porygon. It's sketchy to even make the 4MSS argument when whatever it cant hit can be checked by another teammate allowing gren to run through your team
Greninja has basically turned into a "slap on any team mon and you will do well" just like majority of things that were deemed OP, not that this specifically makes it OP though
No definitely don't ban this froggy.
I love greninja, yes it is very good in OU, but definitely should not be banned. Greninja would not stand A CHANCE in ubers, this thing would be OHKO'd by nearly everything in the meta. (1) In ou, M-Loppuny OHKO's a greninja with high jump kick. (2) Not only that but M-Gallade destroy's this thing. (3) Gunk shot is now a thing but if you needed to you could just ban gunk shot, (4) and greninja's attack stat isn't that high. (5) Greninja is also SUPER frail it can be OHKO'd buy a lot of things, take a look at this.
252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 524-620 (183.8 - 217.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Gallade Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 330-390 (115.7 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 302-356 (105.9 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 266-316 (93.3 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 452-533 (158.5 - 187%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 367-433 (128.7 - 151.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 558-654 (195.7 - 229.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 300-354 (105.2 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 384-452 (134.7 - 158.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 492-582 (172.6 - 204.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beedrill U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 270-320 (94.7 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
that's not even half of it.. (6)
1) Irrelevant
2) Doesn't switch in, doesn't outspeed before MEvo (in case you're not running Fake Out), doesn't live a hit. Greninja switches out
3) Doesn't switch in, doesn't outspeed, doesn't live a hit
4) Let's ban Kyogre from using water moves, that will make it not broken in OU. The logic is flawed to no extent
5) With Greninja having a base 120 move in Gunk Shot, Life orb, and STAB on everything, Gunk Shot included, it doesn't matter
6) The fact that it can be revenged (all those bar Draco Meteor are also type-dependant, btw) isn't enough. Also, half of your calcs come from things that don't even outspeed it and die before they can hit
-------
EDIT: also, as I was typing this, the answer was already provided.
Eh
No definitely don't ban this froggy.
I love greninja, yes it is very good in OU, but definitely should not be banned. Greninja would not stand A CHANCE in ubers, this thing would be OHKO'd by nearly everything in the meta. In ou, M-Loppuny OHKO's a greninja with high jump kick. Not only that but M-Gallade destroy's this thing. Gunk shot is now a thing but if you needed to you could just ban gunk shot, and greninja's attack stat isn't that high. Greninja is also SUPER frail it can be OHKO'd buy a lot of things, take a look at this.
252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 524-620 (183.8 - 217.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Gallade Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 330-390 (115.7 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 302-356 (105.9 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 266-316 (93.3 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 452-533 (158.5 - 187%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 367-433 (128.7 - 151.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 558-654 (195.7 - 229.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 300-354 (105.2 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 384-452 (134.7 - 158.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 492-582 (172.6 - 204.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beedrill U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 270-320 (94.7 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
that's not even half of it..
First of all, as has been repeated in every suspect thread ever, a Pokemon's performance in Ubers has no affect on whether or not we ban it from OU.
Second, those calcs are irrelevant because any player with half a brain will switch Greninja OUT of most of those Pokemon unless they're weak enough for Greninja to finish off since it is faster than all of those except for Breloom's priority. Not to mention bringing up "new mon hype" like Beedrill when there are so many other viable megas to use. Also, it has been established that it only takes 44 Atk EVs and a neutral nature to beat Azumarill. And you're really bringing up Gengar, who you are assuming to hold a Life Orb so it has neither sash nor scarf. Leave your trolling and ignorance out of this thread, please.
No definitely don't ban this froggy.
I love greninja, yes it is very good in OU, but definitely should not be banned. Greninja would not stand A CHANCE in ubers, this thing would be OHKO'd by nearly everything in the meta. In ou, M-Loppuny OHKO's a greninja with high jump kick. Not only that but M-Gallade destroy's this thing. Gunk shot is now a thing but if you needed to you could just ban gunk shot, and greninja's attack stat isn't that high. Greninja is also SUPER frail it can be OHKO'd buy a lot of things, take a look at this.
252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 524-620 (183.8 - 217.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Gallade Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 330-390 (115.7 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 302-356 (105.9 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 266-316 (93.3 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 452-533 (158.5 - 187%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 367-433 (128.7 - 151.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 558-654 (195.7 - 229.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 300-354 (105.2 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 384-452 (134.7 - 158.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 492-582 (172.6 - 204.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beedrill U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 270-320 (94.7 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
that's not even half of it..
You could say the same thing about Deoxys-Attack. DeoA is even more fragile than Greninja, yet it would destroy all of OU with base 180 / 180 offenses. Also, you are cherry-picking calcs, because Greninja outspeeds and beats some of these Pokemon (Gengar, Azumarill, Latios).
I believe you are currently unqualified to post within this thread, so if I could direct you to the thread titled "Suspect Thread Etiquette [Read before Posting in Suspect Threads]", you might find several ways to improve upon your posts, or alternatively lurk more a bit. Its almost Christmas in New Zealand, so unless everyone wants me to spread the Christmas Cheer of Xmas Infractions, I suggest you read that thread, check to see if your post does what I said not to do, and then re-evaluate if you still want to proceed with your post. Remember, I'm not as nice as Haunter.
Santa's sleigh raining down brimstone and hellfire lol
Honestly, with the ORAS changes, Greninja has become beyond ridiculous. Its new and improved capabilities just make it such a pain to run HO or balance since it just murders something every time it comes in and forcing everyone to run some form of Chansey, P2, or Alomoolmomlmoomoa is hardly healthy to the metagame. Speed makes it absolutely impossible to check outside of a scarf or varying forms of priority depending on its current type, new physical capabilities completely invalidated a majority of the checks from X/Y.
Let's just leave the ubers dead horse be, everyone's said it.
Also this title is ballox
Greninja in the current meta is quite simply the closest thing to a stupid button.
Its not a genuine one like Mega Salamence or Mega Khan. Those are true stupid buttons but Greninja walks a fine line.
If it comes in safely then all you have to do is hit a button and now your opponent is fucked. Greninja has such a wide variety of effective moves and he gets STAB on all of them.
122 Base Speed is high and because of Greninja's power and coverage you're effective forcing some of the fastest Megas to run Speed Natures when they shouldn't have to because of the threat of being slower than him.
Its so damn good it doesnt even need to run Water Moves anymore.
My lord I have never seen a mon get over exaggerated this badly, this is perhaps the least threatening suspect we have had in quite a long time. I mean against offensive teams greninja can not switchin freely and is outsped by at least 2-3 mons on any given offensive team. Even if greninja gets in safely against offense there are things that can switch in(albeit unreliably) but I mean even things like bisharp can switch in on like 7 of his 9 moves and threaten him out with a sucker punch, scarf keldeo is also a semi reliable answer that serves as an effective way to deal with greninja most of the time, hell even talonflame with some bulk can switch in on most moves and threaten out with a brave bird. Now obviously these are not the most reliable answers but these are just for offensive teams, these kind of teams dont focus on having switchins for everything they focus on maintaining offensive momentum and keeping the pressure on so greninja doesnt get free turns. I mean the argument that greninja will just always use the right move on the switch is ridiculous, I dont need to theorymon here but I will just say I have been using HO for a while now and greninja is good and is sometimes a pain, but only if the greninja user is very good at predicting my moves. So if I had to rate greninjas matchup against offense I would say it is NOT broken.
Against stall teams greninja is getting worn down every time he comes in due to hazards and firing off LO hits, I mean stall just definitely has ways to handle greninja, reliably through chansey, and bulky waters, and semi reliably through other spdef mons that can switch around to scout out its moves, all the while widdling him down. I mean I just have never seen greninja seriously threaten a stall team and dont even feel the need to continue evaluating his matchup against stall. He is not broken verse stall.
So now is the time where I concede, greninja is broken as fuck against balance, and in my opinion has basically made balance completely useless in this meta. I literally cant think of a common balance core that can handle greninja, he has no problem picking apart the core and then cleaning up the offensive mons of balance since they are typically not as fast as mons on HO. Balance teams can just not afford to scout out ninjas moveset and they dont have the offensive presence needed to keep him under control. No one can really over exaggerate here, I have tried building and using balance in this meta and literally everytime I do and greninja gets a free switch I just pick something to die, and it does feel unfair and I am shouting for him to get banned.
While I feel people are just whining senselessly about greninja, I will say that even though I think he is handled just fine by HO and stall, I think he is unhealthy for the metagame as he promotes only those two playstyles while making balance seem completely irrelevant. There is just no way that this can be fixed without banning greninja so although I may seem like I was going to be anti-ban, I can acknowledge that he is unhealthy and singlehandedly restricts teambuilding and playstyles, BAN GRENINJA.
tl;dr You people are wayy overselling him, but hes still broken, just not by as much as others say. Ban him.
While it has been proven time and time again that frailness is not an argument for something not to be broken, I feel the need to mention that Greninja is one of those pokemon you are going to wonder, why it survives so often or you get to a situation where you just can't kill it.
Lets say you want to revenge kill Greninja with something like Bullet Punch from Scizor, you have to consider that when you sack something to safely bring in your Scizor (in case you want to do it in fear of a possible Hidden Power Fire), you might consider that it does not use something that changes Greninja's Typing to something that resist your priority.
Frailness really does not come very often into play when you attack with a low base power move (even factoring STAB + Technician) against something that resist it.
Maybe it is just me getting always to those situations where Greninja survives with 1 % (or could survive), takes down my "revenge killer" or check and dies to its own life orb, in other words, I often waste 2 Pokemon alone to take down this thing and thats not considering that my opponent might want to save it for later.
The bad thing about those senarios is, you have no safe switch ins (unless you are somehow able to play around it but that is match up reliant) while your opponent might have a safe switch in and maybe wants to keep his Greninja for later.
Greninja is by far the most centralizing Pokemon in this meta. The thing I want to emphasize is that there is no true counter to him. At all. Although limited by 4 moveslots, you can pick and choose according to your team. You can never have a Pokemon that truly can switch in without any fear. Chansey and Empoleon were two extremely good switchins even two weeks ago, but the metagame shifted so quickly that even those two are shaky checks atm. The metagame revolves around this Pokemon and if you try to adapt to it, it adapts to you.
This Pokemon basically turns teambuilding into Rock-Paper-Scissors; if Greninja has x move, you have a chance, if Greninja has y move, you lose.
Agreed. Also, hyper offense cannot exist in an environment where ORAS Greninja is able to run amok. Nothing can switch in safely, and once any Scarf/priority users/faster threats (a whole 9 Pokémon between both OU and UU) are removed, Ninja can effortlessly pave through the rest of the team. Eliminating an entire team type from existence is as good of a testament to its power as anything.
Ban this monster.
Yes it is versatile and fast but versatility does not equal broken. So what if it gained Gunk Shot to beat Fairies, ORAS also brought it so many checks it's not even funny. 122 base speed is fast but not it's not tremendous. ORAS brought Mega Sceptile, Mega Beedrill, Mega Lopunny, Mega Gallade, Mega Swampert and others that can simply outspeed and destroy ninja. The only playstyle it also does good against is ironically Hyper Offense. Stall teams have Chansey and Tentacruel for Greninja while Bird Teams, Rain Teams and Sand Teams outspeed Greninja and basically leave it worthless. Most Scarf Mons also beat it pretty easily. By going mixed Greninja has to use a -Def or -SpDef which further adds to its frailty. It's good, but not BROKEN.
Mega Gallade does not Outspeed Greninja.
Mega Swampert only Outspeeds Greninja in Rain and needs to be Mega Evolved FIRST before Swift Swim works.
Each and everyone one of the rest of the Megas can't properly switch in on Greninja and need to be Mega Evolved first before they can beat him in Speed.
Also good luck switching in some of those Choice Scarfed mons without sac'ing something or watching as your Scarf Mon dies to a coverage move.
But is a poke that does good against only one playstyle broken? It's not just stall or HO where ninja sucks like you said but against Bird Offense, Rain Offense and Sand Offense aswell. The new megas also simply outspeed him and usually 1hko ninja
Landorus-I was pretty bad against offense in BW OU and was still deemed broken.
Also, anyone who says Greninja doesn't do well against offense clearly hasn't used Greninja in this meta. Offense is limited to a select few Pokemon that outspeed it, and even then they can't switch in so Greninja essentially gets a free kill every time it comes in. And before you say "Just play smart," do understand that "playing smart" is not a one-way street. If it's offense vs. Greninja and both the offense user and the Greninja user are "playing smart," the Greninja user will always have the edge due to the nature of essentially getting a free kill every time it comes in.
This is LONG over due. I've been causing a ruckus in multiple threads (unintentionally) about this thing.
What I've noticed a lot of anti-ban'ers don't realize is it's a combination of things that make this thing broken.
1. It has 1 and only one hard, and reliable, counter, and it's a decent at best Pokemon to carry. P2 frankly, has no reason to be in OU outside of dealing with this stupid frog, much like it did when Mence was a thing. The fact that it is even being used just goes to show how overly ridiculous this thing is. Everything else, literally EVERYTHING else is a check, since with the right moveset and spread it is capable of 2HKO'ing everything in the OU tier (yes that includes Chansey). Checks have a hard time coming in, only getting the chance after something has died or taken a huge chunk of damage and gets a slow VoltSwitch or UTurn out. However, even after getting this check in, Greninja simply switches out and holds off on its disgusting onslaught for a later time in the match, and frankly, there's nothing you can do about it.
Now, if that's where it stopped, I'd have a hard time seeing it as obscenely broken. However, unless you're blind or biased, we all know that's not where it stops.
2. At first, 95 Attack and 103 Special attack don't seem like much, and I'd have to agree with you. Alone those two stats are rather underwhelming. However, that isn't where the stats actually sit. Thanks to Life orb and STAB everything thanks to protean, it becomes a HARD hitting Pokemon. Those 95 and 103 attack become about 129 Attack and 174 Special Attack thanks to Life Orb. That is nothing to scoff at, especially when it gets STAB on every move it decides to use.
0 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 222-263 (77.8 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (w/ LO+ Protean)
0 Atk Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 222-262 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (w/o LO w/ base 129 attack)
0 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 84-100 (29.4 - 35%) -- 12.1% chance to 3HKO (w/ LO+ Protean)
0 SpA Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 84-100 (29.4 - 35%) -- 12.1% chance to 3HKO (w/o LO w/ base 173 Special Attack)
3. It's speed tier is amazing. It's capable of outspeeding so many threats it's not even remotely amusing. Only making it harder to deal with shrinking its checks down to only the few faster Pokemon (most of them megas) and scarfed Pokemon. All of which, Greninja just retreats from and hides out until it's time to show its face again.
So, add all these things together, you have a HUGE problem on your hands. A problem that really isn't healthy in anyway. A problem that runs rampant on whatever it wants, slowly picking off whatever it feels like until it kills itself. No one is arguing it doesn't have ways of dying, but that doesn't take away from it's obscene brokenness.
TLDR; Ban this shit.
Also, actually read my reasoning.
Greninja has excellent speed, extraordinarily good coverage, and deceptively high damage output due to getting STAB on everything. All this turns it into a frightening sweeper with few checks and maybe one or two real counters. Out of 719 pokes.
The real thing for me, is how Greninja has obsoleted every special sweeper in the game. Starmie, after almost 20 years of being OU, has completely disappeared from the tier. Gengar, while still decent, is a shadow of its former self. Even many electrics, like Zapdos and Tornadus are destroyed by STAB Ice Beam. The point is that few people will even consider running another special sweeper, with this thing around. It's so over-centralizing, it's rather silly to be honest.
Please Ban, it's broken, over-centralizing, and does not belong in OU.
I hear many people arguing Greninja is severely crippled by its 4ms, but this is true for every pokemon, even those with only an adequate movepool. Obviously, this has nothing to do with whether Greninja needs a ban or not.
While Greninja got Gunk Shot and Low Kick in ORAS, its main issue is still 4MSS, it can't run everything at the same time, which means it will always be walled/checked by common Pokemon in the tier. Also, given its frailty (it isn't switching into anything really), and the fact that it has to pay a 10% tax every time it attacks, it won't last very long. While Greninja has a good speed tier, it it still outsped by many scarfers. ORAS also gave us many fast new Pokemon, MBee, MLop, MScep, and with these come an increase in priority. So now Greninja has to fight both these faster new threats, as well as the increasing priority that is used to deal with these.
If you are going to argue that it runs Hydro Pump | HP Fire | Low Kick | Gunk Shot | Ice Beam | Grass Knot | Spikes | Dark Pulse | Extrasensory and so has no real counters, which is what this thread is really just going to degenerate into...
This man summed it up perfectly. Greninja is a top tier threat, and, bar maybe Mega Metagross, is the best pokemon in OU. However, there is just so many moves you want to pack with such little room to use three. Without HP Fire, Ferrothorn comes in. Without Low Kick, SpDef Empoleon and Chansey come to mind. Lacking Gunk Shot (stupid) and the old counters show up (Azu, Keldeo). I'm in the obviously low percent, and it's getting banned regardless, but for what it's worth...
Mega Gallade does not Outspeed Greninja.
Mega Swampert only Outspeeds Greninja in Rain and needs to be Mega Evolved FIRST before Swift Swim works.
Each and everyone on of rest of the Megas can't properly switch in on Greninja and need to be Mega Evolved first before they can beat him in Speed.
Also good luck switching in some of those Choice Scarfed mons without sac'ing something or watching as your Scarf Mon dies to a coverage move.
My bad about Mega Gallade, thought his base speed was 125. Your argument goes both ways though. Greninja cannot switch in without you sacking something. It's frailty makes it super hard to bring in and even if you revenge kill a poke with ninja it easily gets forced out by any of these pokes: Talonflame, Keldeo, Chansey, SpDef Klefki, Tentacruel, Empoleon, Mega Sceptile (M Evolved), Weavile, Mega Lopunny (Fake out allows it to mega evolve), Mega Beedrill (Protect allows it to M Evolve), Scarf Lando, SpDef Rotom-W, Mega Venusaur, any Sand Rush/Swift Swim poke in Sand/Rain respectively, etc
While I'm going to miss using Jiraya (lol), I have to be honest about this. Greninja is way too good, way too easy to abuse and slap on many team archetypes. It's basically the go-to attacker of the meta. Gunk Shot meant that previous counters are utterly annihilated, and Low Kick means it has more reliable ways of nailing TTar and Heatran. What the hell were you thinking GF?
Sure, it's frail and can be revenge killed, but I think that's hardly enough to balance it out given its insane speed and coverage. It's difficult to play around, and stuff like Empoleon and Tentacruel getting more usage again is a red flag (a staple of OP mons is forcing people to run shit they'd never run otherwise. And face it, Scarfed Keldeo is, for the large part, a Greninja check).
Basically no reason not to run it on offense.
Despite all of that, I do think it's worth considering anti-ban arguments. For now, I'm leaning towards BAN.
Greninja has excellent speed, extraordinarily good coverage, and deceptively high damage output due to getting STAB on everything. All this turns it into a frightening sweeper with few checks and maybe one or two real counters. Out of 719 pokes.
The real thing for me, is how Greninja has obsoleted every special sweeper in the game. Starmie, after almost 20 years of being OU, has completely disappeared from the tier. Gengar, while still decent, is a shadow of its former self. Even many electrics, like Zapdos and Tornadus are destroyed by STAB Ice Beam. The point is that few people will even consider running another special sweeper, with this thing around. It's so over-centralizing, it's rather silly to be honest.
Please Ban, it's broken, over-centralizing, and does not belong in OU.
I hear many people arguing Greninja is severely crippled by its 4ms, but this is of course true for every pokemon, even those with only an adequate movepool. This clearly has nothing to do with whether Greninja needs a ban or not.
Starmie and Gengar are still good Pokemon in OU. Starmie is a good Rapid Spinner for more offensive teams that need hazard removal but cannot afford to lose their own hazards, whereas Gengar's LO 3 Attacks + Taunt is very threatening in the current metagame at the moment. Greninja really is not a special sweeper; itt is more designed to take down opponents with the sheer power given to it by Protean, and it usually goes mixed at the moment with Gunk Shot / Low Kick / Ice Beam / Dark Pulse covering everything except Tentacruel, Klefki, and a few others. I support a Greninja ban, but not by your reasoning.
So, literally nothing can switch into it safely, and very little can outspeed it, so it consistently defeats at least one of your mons and seriously damages another, minimum.
This guy reminds me way too much of genesect in that it's too hard to reliably guess what set it is (or more accurately what moves its carrying), so it's hard to defend against, and it's so fast that it's hard to kill. He's not as bad as gene, but close enough.
Anybody wondering why I, a typically anti ban user, didn't even consider most counter arguments? It's because greninja does nothing beneficial to the meta. Its move pool is too wide for positive centralization, it decreases the number of options you have to an unreasonable level, and just isn't fun to play against.
I'm not completely convinced it's definition broken, and as a balance player I wouldn't mind it sticking around because I always have a scarfer our priority mon that can revenge kill it, as well as a defensive option to switch into to prevent it from killing one of my more important mons for that match, but I am very convinced it is bad for the meta, and support a ban
Haunter, would you please make a Victory Road version of this thread? The quality of discussion in this one has been...lacking, to say the least, and it'd be nice to have a parallel discussion headed by players with more overall experience.
