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I see Conkeldurr and its Mach Punch showing up (mostly on other forums), but they don't take Protean into account. Most of the time when Conkeldurr comes in, Greninja is inevitably going to be poison type or psychic type (the former more often because Gunk Shot). Which leads to Mach Punch doing a WHOOPING AMOUNT OF DAMAGE!
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 53-63 (18.5 - 22%) -- possible 5HKO
(This is with Greninja being psychic or poison type, not water/dark type because Protean)
Sure Greninja MIGHT use Ice Beam or Dark Pulse instead, but then it can just switch out. Conkeldurr can't stop Greninja from doing so.
And Greninja is not gonna switch into a Conkeldurr.
OKAY, so I think at the beginning and end of XY we realized that Greninja was pretty much the metagame; it was the best Pokemon if we had to put our finger on it and it had literally no drawbacks to using apart for perhaps your team being a bit more susceptible to priority. We had to deal with a Pokemon who got 1.5x of a boost on every attack it uses, and had perhaps the most colorful movepool, filled with Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and things such as Extrasensory and Grass Knot. Perhaps the most broken thing about it was its stupid Speed. This made it so every move will receive a boost significant enough to OHKO or 2HKO anything weak to its attacks, and sometimes even neutral targets (i.e. Bisharp) are OHKOed. It has such a high Speed tier that it outruns pretty much the unboosted whole metagame except for some newer mega evolutions and scarfers. This, in my opinion, is basically what made it an overpowered piece of shit. Greninja was able to outright beat some amazing Pokemon such as Latios 1 on 1 just by using STAB Ice Beam, and it would always outrun them due to its blistering Speed. You NEEDED something on your team to beat it, or it just ran through you. This in itself is somewhat over centralizing, having to actually have one Pokemon on any team that, while it could still be beneficial to the team apart from being a teamslot for just beating this thing.
Of course, we had a disposal to many things such as Chansey and 96+ Clefable to beat it and stop it from becoming an episode of the shitty 'Mega Salamence use anything that works' trend, where it was basically us using Zapdos and Weavile just to beat Mega Salamence. We started using Alomomola a bit more, but I think that's as far as 'over centralizing' goes. If we had to be a bit more harsh, I guess you could say the rise of 'Assault Vest Azumarill' was a valid answer, but even then, that's just one Pokemon out of the bunch and it wasn't the only one, so we can't consider it 'completely overcentralizing'. To check it, you just put some viable Pokemon that could handle it easily, which is why the overusage of Chansey and Clefable wasn't such a problem; it wasn't actually us using unviable shit to beat it, it's just us using Pokemon that just happen to beat Greninja. It wasn't completely 100% broken; some special walls could still tolerate it, and it could still be checked if you were prepared for it. As a matter of fact, it was actually not as much of a problem because it was still something you could handle if you were ready.
But with ORAS, it was extremely obvious that this thing became broken straight on the spot. The two move tutors just pushed it much to far. Why? Gunk Shot is pretty much the ONE THING THAT IT NEEDED. To put it bluntly, with Gunk Shot, it literally could just plow through Clefable, it's most used check, and Chansey, who was 2HKOed just after rocks. It /could/ spam Softboiled, but the poison chance + crit + it literally not being allowed to do anything is just stupid. Assault Vest Azumarill become significantly less viable because Gunk Shot Greninja could be EVd to OHKO it, I'd say that's somewhat overcentralizing. This basically became one thing: the things that used to counter or check it, no longer can do so. Wouldn't you say that's pretty stupid? This is going to bring me to my next point, which is very supported by all of this given how it expresses come examples of evading counters, also known as my next point. At the moment, we are literally resorting to niche things such as Porygon2 and Tentacruel to beat it, the latter is easily beatable to those who pack Extrasensory. Right now, if we want viable counters, Ferrothorn is a good one with offensive presence that loses to Hidden Power Fire. Alomomola beats Greninja one on one, but it really takes up a teamslot and doesn't do anything other than wishes.
Oh, but it doesn't stop there, does it? Yeah, I have a bit more to berate Greninja about. Depending on the set it runs, Greninja can avoid its counters. Gunk Shot and Ice Beam are pretty much staples that just do enough for them to already be threats, because of the fact that they are both STAB attacks and hit most things bar Steel-types for some amount of damage. But then, that's where it's colorful movepool comes in! Dark Pulse snipes things that are bulky psychics who would OTHERWISE have some chance of actually beating Greninja due to their special bulk. Grass Knot / Hidden Power Grass beats Rotom-W and sorta counters it because Protean makes it Grass and Water / Electric doesn't do much to it. Extrasensory lets you beat Tentacruel, who is often regarded as a check. Low Kick beats Empoleon, a common Pokemon also regarded as check. I mean, just in this, you already see what I mean.
Finally, I would like to end off on how hard it is to revenge kill. Greninja's base 122 Speed outspeeds up to fucking Mega Pidgeot, which is ridiculously fast. For reference, it outpaces the entire base 110 Speed tier, the most common Speed tier in the game. This means that Greninja, essentially, just will come in and start damaging things, and it's hard to get it off of a roll without using priority (that is super effective) and scarfers. Do you see how unreliable it is to finish this thing off? There are only a handful of Pokemon that can actually outspeed and OHKO this thing - those being Mega Sceptile, Mega Sceptile. and Mega Lopunny as the most notable. Once again, it is over centralizing because it forces you to use a fast Pokemon or scarfer to beat it.
Alright, so while many posts in this thread are making my eyes hurt (but most of those have been deleted ty), I thought I would share my opinions.
I'm not going to restate the facts that "oh its fast and hard to revenge kill", as that was already an important factor in XY.
The more important thing is that Greninja basically has a field day versus any Offensive / Balanced team, whereas in XY one could just slap on 96+ SpD Clefable and call it a day, not really having to worry much about greninja. Unfortunately, there is no "splashable" check to Greninja that can fit on most playstyles like Clefable or AV Azumarill could. Sure, it has a fair amount of defensive checks such as Tentacruel, Cresselia, Mega Scizor, Klefki, and SpD RestTalk Gyarados, but most of those Pokemon have unreliable forms of recovery and therefore get worn down quickly. Not to mention, ninja can get around some checks like Mega Scizor with HP Fire or Extrasensory for Tentacruel / Keldeo, and it can even block Klefki's thunder wave by going for spikes as it switches in. Chansey, the infamous stallwart that could easily handle Greninja in XY has to run max HP and max Defense to avoid the 2HKO from Low Kick / Gunk Shot, and more importantly has to fear the 30% poison chance from Gunk Shot as well as being constantly worn down from the various special attackers it needs to check. SpDef Gyarados is weak to Stealth Rock and also gets worn down quickly if it needs to constantly check greninja, and relying on Sleep Talk rolls generally isnt great. The only "true counter" being Porygon2, has a pretty crappy defensive typing and gets extremely crippled by Knock Off, which is so common in the tier.
While some may argue that it has 4MSS, I dont think that could be any more untrue. For most teams, you can just go with the extremely versatile and standard Low Kick / Dark Pulse / Ice Beam / Gunk Shot and thats cool. But if your team struggles to break through Steel-types, particularly Mega Scizor, it can easily run HP Fire. While Low Kick may seem cool to 2HKo Ferrothorn, taking all of that recoil from Iron Barbs and Life Orb (and the rare rocky helmet lol) quickly wears down ninja. If your team struggles with Mega Gyarados, Grass Knot is a great option. The list goes on and on.
I feel that Greninjna is too over centralizing and is a massive threat to all playstyles, requiring obscure pokemon or sets to check / counter it with its near perfect movepool. I definitely want to see Ban.
Although I agree with most parts of you post, this one sentence isn't really true. Alomomola definitely has beating Greninja as his biggest niche, but it's not "taking up a teamslot" just for that. Months ago, way before ORAS, Alomomola was already a go-to bulky water on stall teams (along with Quagsire and Slowbro), many times running a physically defensive oriented spread (which does not really beat Greninja). The way you put it seems like people are using one completely obscure pokémon only because it beats Greninja, which is a very misleading thing to say in a discussion.
i might even try to get reqs this time around and i've NEVER done that. probably won't but i might give it a go. Why? Cause i really REALLY want this thing out of OU.
I've used SmogFrog on every team since ORAS began, and the fact i change so little in its set to patch holes is ridiculous. if you play offense and lose your Greninja check, You WILL Lose. if you play stall, its highly likely Gren will get through your team eventually by whittling it down.
I've seen people say things that equate to "Greninja can't 6-0 a team no ban" Gren can't sweep but its a top tier wall breaker, cleaner and revenge killer in one slot. that has a grand total of ONE solid answer. Which is god damm P2.
Its not that it has no Counters, or that its fast, or thats its strong. its the fact its all of these and more that make me say FOR THE LOVE OF ARCEUS AND MEGA RAY RAY BAN
Having to deal with seven or eight potential STABs is not a fun thing to do. Barring scarf users, the only things outspeeding it are priority or Mega Evos, which require a turn before they hit their base speed. Of course, who would keep Greninja in on a potential scarf user or priority? Protean may be a double-edged sword for it, having to change its weaknesses and resistances with every move, but it's clear that having STAB on everything outweighs its flaws, which are what, two?
In XY, we had ways to deal with it. We knew physical, or even mixed Greninja wasn't even viable given its then- movepool, and having things like AV Azumarill around made it bearable. Oh, but come ORAS, it got pushed over the edge and got new toys in the form of Gunk Shot and Low Kick. Having this broken piece of shit around is completely unhealthy for OU.
Sorry ninja frog, it's been fun having you around until a month ago. Now it's not, and I just want to play the damned game. Ban.
greninja messes up UO tier, you often need to teambuild around this monster. having protean to make all your moves stab is just amazingly powerful especially packed with a life orb. even tho its easy to revenge greninja its not like its ever gonna stay in on a (talonflame, scarfed lando, etc). another thing i have heard is that mach punch ruins greninja but remember when it goers for extrasensory or gunk shot it resists mach punch!! i feel like alot of people that bring up this argument dont remember this.... gunk shot being able to do amazing damage because of its just a powerful move it also gainst stab so its able to 2hitKO/OHKO many special mons that try to switch in like azumaril and sylveon die 100% of the time just from a non invested naive gunk shot....(clefable takes 89 percent so not a switch in). overall it is choking team-building to counter it and i will be voting for the ban
In my opinion, Greninja should be banned because...
1) it has an incredible Movepool and extremely versatile moveslots,
Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Low Kick, Gunk Shot, Hidden Power Fire, Grass Knot, Dark Pulse, Extrasensory, Toxic Spikes, Spikes, Hidden Power Grass. Greninja can just run any combination of those moves (bar HP Fire + HP Grass, of course) to defeat whatever it wants to. Of course it can only run four of those, but your opponent has no way of telling which moves you're running at all, and there are no restrictions between Greninja movesets. While everything else just runs STABs + coverage, Greninja has 4 STABs and 4 powerful coverage moves which it can choose freely. Each set has very different checks. I will talk more about this on 3).
2) it is almost impossible to switch into with offensive teams,
This one is pretty obvious: most of the time you can't switch in on Greninja without running things that simply don't fit in on offensive teams, namely Specially Defensive Alomomola and Chansey, or "passive" things, such as Klefki, who completely kill your momentum. If you allow Greninja to come in, well, you got to sack something. While that may also apply to some other threats, such as Kyurem-B, Greninja is also hard to revenge kill thanks to its great speed tier. Not even HO teams enjoy sacking members like that. Sure, Greninja is frail and can't switch in safely, but U-turn and Volt Switch are far from uncommon, it is not that frail (I mean, it is frail but Water/Dark gives it a plenty of resistences as it switches in, and that is all it needs) and Greninja can just be played aggressively and try to get in as an opponent sets Stealth Rock, recovers or switches. Usually risky, yes, but it will usually pay off for offensive teams. The best an offensive team can do is to play really well and not give Greninja enough room, but that is just way too hard if not borderline impossible. Even so, if you sack something and send in a Scarfer, Greninja can just switch out. You basically need a Scarfer or insanely strong priority user, and none can actually switch in on Greninja.
3) it forces obnoxious "guessing games" at no cost to the Greninja user,
While Dark Pulse/Low Kick/Gunk Shot/Ice Beam is probably the best set, Greninja is still extremely unpredictable. That set is checked by Tentacruel, right? Well, what if it runs Extrasensory? To be honest, it's impossible to counter Greninja as a whole. You can check "Extrasensory-less" Greninja, "Dark Pulse-less" Greninja, "Hidden Power Fire-less" Greninja, etc at best. And while you're there being forced to make risky plays and pulling your hair out (or just praying so your opponent doesn't have the proper coverage to plow through your team), your opponent knows exactly what to do and how to take advantage of the situation. Personally, I've caught myself thinking "ok, I win this match unless that Greninja has Low Kick!" or "ok this team can actually fare -decently- against Greninja unless it carries Extrasensory!" and the likes many times and I know I'm not the only one. That is not a good thing, specially when it's almost impossible to scout four moves against something that is by no means weak. This is particularily annoying for balance and bulky offense. Also, you can't say "you can just predict" because Greninja is in fact the most unpredictable thing I can think of in OU and, even if it wasn't, you just can't rely solely on prediction to defeat such a threat. Most of the time it can just go down to guessing Greninja's full moveset and trying to play around it.
4) it is nearly impossible to counter or check reliably without dedicating two or more teamslots to it,
Specially Defensive Mega Scizor: loses to Hidden Power Fire and can't switch in on Hydro Pump well.
Ferrothorn: loses to Hidden Power Fire and takes a lot of damage from Low Kick.
Heatran: loses to Hydro Pump and Low Kick.
Mew: loses to Dark Pulse.
Alomomola: most Alomomola teams tend to fare poorly against Spikes and/or Toxic Spikes.
Chansey: extremely passive, most Chansey teams also fare poorly against Spikes and/or Toxic Spikes.
Clefable: loses to Gunk Shot.
Azumarill: loses to Gunk Shot.
Kyurem-Black: loses to Low Kick.
Empoleon: loses to Low Kick.
Tentacruel: loses to Extrasensory.
Rotom-W: loses to Hidden Power Grass and can't switch in well on Dark Pulse.
Mega Diancie: loses to Hydro Pump.
Keldeo: loses to Extrasensory and can't come in on anything without getting into/close to Gunk Shot/Grass Knot/Hidden Power Grass's KO range.
Again, a lot of guessing games. See 3). That wouldn't be an issue if it had 2 or so available moveslots for coverage moves, but it has 4. That said:
5) and it simply destroys balanced builds.
Those balanced "fat" teams rely on team synergy and such to keep threats in check, but that simply won't work with Greninja. Those teams need to play safe most of the time, and losing a team member to an unexpected move can punch enormous holes in such teams' structures. There is no room for mistakes on any remotely passive team, and points 1), 3) and 4) mean those balanced/bulky teams have no way to safely keep Greninja in check.
Of course I didn't make up my mind yet, but I'm extremely inclined to support a ban. At the same time I still didn't see many valid arguments against a ban, so who knows.
Also, please, for the sake of this thread, stop replying to posts coming off clearly clueless users and let's try to make this a good discussion thread!
Ugh. K. Imma give my two cents on this Greninjer matter. I am team NO BAN btw.
The argument that Greninja restricts teambuilding or is over-centralizing is kinda invalid because that could be said about any (S rank) mon, ever. You kinda have to have answers to Keldeo, Zard X, Mega Gyarados, Mega Sableye, etc, or get swept /destroyed by them, no? Wanted to get that out the way first.
Anyways, on to why I think Gren shouldn't be banned:
Gren isn't powerful enough to dismantle complete playstyles. That and it is worn down faster than a poisoned Chansey in a sandstorm (LO damage + hazard switch ins). Vs stall, it loses. Vs offense, it can't switch in and if it manages to switch in and get a kill..so what if it gets a kill? That's what happens when you run offense: something strong usually gets a kill if given a free switch; vs balance, it can't beat the whole team, especially if it is built with Greninja in mind, which it should be. Greninja is an S-rank mon. I mean, should teams prepare for and have answers to Zard X, Mega Metagross, Landorus-T, Mega Sableye and not prepare for Gren? Have to carry more than one check? So what if you have to carry 2 or more answers on balance or w/e playstyle, which you may have to for Gren thanks to its ability and coverage. Does that mean it is broken though? The definition of broken is needed before I'm able to make that judgement, tbh.
Tl;dr: Gren is able to pressure many team archetypes, but it cannot completely demolish them like some people believe. It is kept in check by priority, scarfers, hazards, naturally faster mons (Mega Lopunny, Mega Sceptile, Mega Manectric) and mons bulky enough to take its hits, and these things are all in abundance in the OU tier. For that, I believe Greninja shouldn't be banned.
Ok, I apologize if what I'm about to say has already been said, but I do need a place to get my thoughts down.
Well, everybody knew this was coming. At the moment, I'm at an abstain situation, but I lean towards saying ban.
Why would we ban Greninja?
Thanks to Protean, it gets STAB on all its attacks. That means its 305 SpA (that is what I normally see) shoots up to 458, rounded up. Unboosted, I'd say that is pretty damn powerful. It sits at an amazing speed tier with 122 Speed, beating most relevant things save for Talonflame, Weavile, and a lot of Megas: Lopunny, Manectric, Aerodactyl, Sceptile, Alakazam, and Beedrill. Its raw power and speed mean you must run a Scarfer or priority user to take it down before it deals serious damage, which it can definitely do with an effective 458 SpA and 341 Atk.
But wait, it has checks and counters, right? Not as many as it used to. For instance, Azumarill and Clefable used to be problems, but now it has Gunk Shot to deal with those two. When it was first announced, I didn't think Gunk Shot would do much coming off Greninja's uninvested Attack. Never have I been more wrong.
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 390-460 (97.9 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock)
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 283-338 (71.8 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If you want to beat Greninja, you're basically restricted to using one of the aforementioned fast mons, a Priority or Scarf user, or Chansey. With its raw power and speed, in addition to its ability to blow by some of its former checks and counters, Greninja restricts teambuilding in such a way that centralizes the metagame around it, which is unhealthy for the OU environment.
And why wouldn't we ban it?
The main reason is its four-moveslot syndrome. Greninja can't deal with all its checks and counters at once. It can't get by Megagross without Dark Pulse, it can't hit Ferro without HP Fire or Low Kick, it can't bear Kyurem-B without Low Kick… the list goes on. However, four-moveslot syndrome also adds to the versatility of a Pokemon, as you never know what set it will be running until it's too late. Still, if you're an experienced enough player, you can make an educated guess via Team Preview, but several of us cannot.
Greninja is also very frail, and because of that it is actually easy to revenge-kill with a proper scarfer or priority user. Take the ubiquitous Talonflame, for instance.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 325-384 (113.6 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
However, the key word is proper, as it resists several forms of priority, which is why I understand why people say it's tough to revenge-kill.
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 83-98 (29 - 34.2%) -- 3.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 83-98 (29 - 34.2%) -- 3.1% chance to 3HKO
Then again, Choice Scarf users are common.
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 384-452 (134.2 - 158%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 271-321 (94.7 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 542-638 (189.5 - 223%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Though not all of them are 100% reliable…
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 246-291 (86 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 210-248 (73.4 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 256-303 (89.5 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (cannot OHKO if Jolly)
TL;DR
Yes, there are ways to deal with Greninja in Priority, Scarf mons, naturally fast mons, and Chansey. However, the rise in such Pokemon can actually be somewhat attributed to Greninja's dominance, as the niches that the aforementioned mons occupy wouldn't be nearly as important if Greninja didn't exist. Moreover, we all know how passive Chansey teams are. Such checks and counters aren't enough to make Greninja not broken, as it is easy to build around in this case. Couple that with its offensive power, critical speed tier, and ability to smash through its checks and counters depending on the set it runs, and Greninja is ostensibly unhealthy for OU. I'll need some more time to make an informed decision, but I'm liable to switch from abstain to ban at any point, so I will continue to catch up on my reading here.
I don't think so. Low Kick is played a lot since it takes down Heatran, Tyranitar and Ferrothorn with one move, meaning Low Kick can replace both Hydro Pump AND Hidden Power Fire. Moreover, that also hurts Ferrothorn alot. Extrasensory is pretty common too, knowing it's been useful to take down Venusaur Mega.
I'm ok with "every Greninja moveset has a check, so it's easy to counter it once you know the set", but what does it take to figure out the moveset? How many turns and how many damages? Your opponent will play with the fact you don't know his moveset and he won't show it right away. Not knowing which set it is means not knowing which mon checks it. So that basically means you can lose one mon on each turn Greninja stays on the playground. You said it yourself. I don't think it is healthy for the metagame that one Pokemon requires to be ready to lose one of yours just to find out his moveset.
by replacing hydro pump you lose out on your most powerful attack against stuff like Scizor/Charizard/Conk/Raikou. You need pump to knock out charizard after rocks, scizor turns from a check to a counter, I guess you can run extra sensory for conk but that just seems unnecessary and raikou now doesnt get 2hko'd after rocks. By introducing low kick to your moveset you sacrifice 40 special attack EVs on Greninja as well to do more damage with gunk/low kick.
So you have to scout, find out what set it has, sacrifice one pokemon out of your 6 in order to deal with it and then take it out the following turn. That screams broken in that you forced Greninja to switch, congrats but you still have to deal with the other 5 pokemon on the team.
Also what if the team has a healing wish Latias or a wish user like Jirachi?
The fact that Greninja needs be scouted and have built in buffers for each team, tells me this pokemon needs to be banned.
You dont have to sacrifice one pokemon to learn his moveset. that's just the worst case scenario and a consistent way to do it. there are more reckless ways to beat greninja but of course you wouldn't want to do that. greninja is too frail to get passed wishes and i dont think it has good synergy with jirachi anyway. Healing wish lati should always be played around when plaing greninja. lati should either be pressured to not be able to healing wish or you should have enough knowledge of greninja's moveset to handle it by the time lati can healing wish.
Greninja has a lot of coverage, enough to beat almost any pokemon it wants to (thanks, captain obvious, so do Dragonite and Tyranitar and Mew and so many other pokemon!). But Greninja has a few differences that make it broken:
It's fast. So unless you run Weavile, a Scarfer, or one of the handful of faster mega pokemon, you will need to check it defensively, ie, you will need to take Greninja's choice of attack, then retaliate and KO it, most of the time. The few pokemon that can outspeed it have no reliable recovery, besides Mega Sceptile, Talonflame, and Aerodactyl, who are questionable Greninja switch-ins and also are too frail to set in Greninja's face (or nearly anything's face) and spam their recovery moves.
It doesn't need to set up, because Protean + Life Orb already gives a boost to its coverage. So force it out all you want, but it can come right back in later, at basically no cost except that it needs to find a free turn to do so. So you will get your team slowly ripped apart if you try to sac a pokemon and bring in your revenge killer every time. Also, with no set-up move, it gets a 4th slot for coverage, while some pokemon with wide coverage can only use 3 moves because they need Dragon Dance or something.
Greninja's opponent is not helped (reliably) by its 4MSS, because it can vary its moveset in so many ways that it would take 3-4 conditional checks to cover them all.
Take an example like DD Mega Tyranitar; you put one conditional check on your team, like Ferrothorn, who loses to Fire Punch (or superpower, but I have never seen that). You will then need another check that can take Fire Punch, like Landorus-T. You pretty much know that Mega Tyranitar won't run both punches, because it already is running Dragon Dance, Stone Edge/Rock Slide, and Crunch/Earthquake.
But now look at Greninja. The only guaranteed move on its set right now is Ice Beam, and most of the time, no coverage move can rule out another coverage move. You can put on one conditional check, like Mew, who loses to Dark Pulse. So you put on another, like we can put on Kyurem-B, who loses to Low Kick. But wait, unlike Mega T-tar, Greninja can run both of those moves to cover both Mew and Kyurem-B at the same time! So you put on Sylveon, only to see it get Gunk Shotted. So you need a 4th check, just to take on Greninja's full set, Dark Pulse + Low Kick + Gunk Shot + Ice Beam. That's right, 4 checks to Greninja! Maybe 3 if you can pick a better set of checks, because while Greninja can run any 2 coverage moves it wants at no cost, there are some sets of 3 coverage moves that are redundant.
Don't forget that out of those 3-4 checks, only one of them is guaranteed to work, and you don't know which one until Greninja actually comes out and uses each of its moves. Aside from the possibility of Greninja screwing with you by not going for the obvious move and then luring in+KOing the check who can't take that move, you'll have to wait for Greninja to switch in multiple times to scout its full moveset. What are you going to do until then, try and save 3-4 possible checks until mid or late game until it does come out?
With all that hassle, you might just want to counter Greninja, using something that can switch into any attack. But it only has a few counters/hard checks
The counters with reliable recovery somehow are all extremely passive.
Porygon2 and Chansey have been mentioned a lot. We all already know about them.
SDef Cresselia and Alomomola just barely hang on against some super effective moves. Umbreon and SDef Gyarados are out there too, also passive.
CM Manaphy + SDef Mega Scizor core is the least passive thing I can think of (it works because Greninja requires a different type Hidden Power to beat each of them), but even then, it takes 2 pokemon each running one of their more passive sets. As if that weren't enough, a lot of them have to Recover on the switch out or risk being 2HKO'd the next time Greninja comes in.
Along with what I said above, with Greninja needing no set up to become dangerous, these counters can't even take advantage of the one drawback to switching Greninja out; the free turn.
And Greninja sets up spikes on most of them, because why not, what are they going to do back?
There are a few one-time counters, but they are just that: one-time.
Klefki comes to mind as probably the best one, since it can switch in multiple times if it comes in on most of Greninja's attacks, which the others can't usually do.
PDef Rotom-W is only 2HKO'd by HP Grass, but Gunk Shot, Dark Pulse, and Extrasensory hurt enough that it won't be able to switch in again if it comes in on one of those.
Mega Manectric can take any one attack, if it's already in mega form, but never more than that, because there are no resisted attacks for it to come in on. edit: oh yeah and there's AV Raikou, though it doesn't like switching in on some of those new physical moves.
DD SDef Gyarados, though Greninja would probably have no problem adapting to this one and running HP Electric if it got popular (it's stronger than Starmie's LO Thunderbolt ffs, it's not that niche). That's all I can think of.
tl dr, read the main bullet points, that's why I formatted it that way.
though Greninja would probably have no problem adapting to this one and running HP Electric if it got popular (it's stronger than Starmie's LO Thunderbolt ffs, it's not that niche).
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Electric vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 109-130 (31.9 - 38.1%) -- 94% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 107-126 (31.3 - 36.9%) -- 78.3% chance to 3HKO
While Greninja got Gunk Shot and Low Kick in ORAS, its main issue is still 4MSS, it can't run everything at the same time, which means it will always be walled/checked by common Pokemon in the tier. Also, given its frailty (it isn't switching into anything really), and the fact that it has to pay a 10% tax every time it attacks, it won't last very long. While Greninja has a good speed tier, it it still outsped by many scarfers. ORAS also gave us many fast new Pokemon, MBee, MLop, MScep, and with these come an increase in priority. So now Greninja has to fight both these faster new threats, as well as the increasing priority that is used to deal with these.
If you are going to argue that it runs Hydro Pump | HP Fire | Low Kick | Gunk Shot | Ice Beam | Grass Knot | Spikes | Dark Pulse | Extrasensory and so has no real counters, which is what this thread is really just going to degenerate into...
Greninja doesn't have 4MSS. At all. Greninja is the kind of Pokemon that runs the types of moves your team lacks, AND gets STAB for each one. I mean, Hydro Pump has turned into a niche option at best, since you could just run Keldeo, Azumarill, Gyarados or Rotom-W for your water type.
When most of the time, your only way to deal with a specific Pokemon is to revenge kill it, you have a problem.
maybe if you nubs knew bout team building then u cud easily predict what greninja set they are gunna use, and if not, make sure you dont have just 1 greninja "counter" because if you do, the only thing on ur team thats walling that greninja is its life orb recoil. use empoleon but at the same time use something like sabeleye-mega or tentacruel that way you get every possible gren set if you sniff my drift. just watch me create a keckleon set that will be so versatile that it would be next in line to its genus specied brother greninja.
Ninja Brian is broken almost in the same way Luke Skywalker was broken. Unpredictable, fast and hard hitting all at once. I say almost because Anakin's son was able to run physical sets better than Danny Sexbang's ninja friend. Like Darth Vader's kid, this fucking frog has a vast movepool, and since it gets STAB for each one thanks to Protean, you could run the types of moves that your team lacks.
Need something to break Slowbro? Dark Pulse or Grass Knot.
Rotom-W? HP Grass.
Heatran and Tyranitar? Low Kick.
Gliscor, Dragons or Lando-T? Ice Beam.
Fairies? Gunk Shot.
I can keep going.
The difference, though, as someone else pointed out, is that Ninja Brian doesn't require a turn to set up because Protean and Life Orb give him enough power boosts to where it can OHKO/2HKO over 90% of the metagame when running the right moves. Also, base 122 speed is blistering fast, to the point where only scarfers, select few megas and a few other options such as Weavile can outspeed.
Yes, Greninja Brian is frail, but when most of the time, your only option to deal with him is to revenge kill it, you have a serious problem.
BAN!
I also would like to request to change the title of the thread to something Ninja Sex Party related, because Ninja Brian is awesome. Don't piss him off, or you'll die.
That is still pretty good, though, especially if Rotom gets off a Burn in the process. :/ Only a handful of Pokemon can switch into Rotom safely if Gren goes out, either due to the combo of Hydro Pump, WoW, Volt Switch, and Pain Split. :/ At that point it is all about predicting what the opponent is going to do.
Okay do you want to run chansey on every team just to deal with greninja? Or maybe klefki alomolmola which are completely momentum killers? This is the thing and since greninja has such high speed it outspeed everything bar mega beedrill mega lopunny mega manectric. Also the fact you HAVE to sack something just to scout it's moveset also is overcentralizing as things like porygon2 is used JUST to take on greninja. Sure it's frail but so is deoxys-a. This is going to the point of when mega mawile was here which also like greninja had NO safe switch ins without knowing its moves. So I am on the Ban arguement.
I'm glad to see OU doing this suspect test as the other tiers have been cleaning theirs and it really was long overdue.
I find it a bit weird to say Greninja has a 4mss when he has protean and great movepool, a combination of factors to create a unpredictable offense machine. Thanks to protean it doesn't lose any power when going for coverage so it has endless more freedom at offense than any other pokemon in OU. Sure technically it's movepool could be better but it doesn't need to be. It hits everything that is not a dedicated stall mon really hard and with it's speed it's just impossible to build a team with mons Greninja can not just kill when given a free switch. It was already a great pokemon in XY but getting Gunk Shot and Low Kick did not just give it more coverage but made mixed sets viable which is a huge game-breaker as mixed attackers are just so much harder to check or counter, so in a nutshell:
You practically need to be able to read minds to defend against it.
It can alter it's standard sets with far less opportunity cost than other mons so even saying it has 4mss is a overstatement.
This makes it a serious strain at teambuilding and a big bitch to play against.
Of course though it has it's noticeable flaws or we wouldn't even be suspect testing it but it really can just be summed up in "frailty". It has low hp and weak defenses and mediocre defense typing when it enters battle and life orb recoil quickens it's death and it really needs to ko the opposing mon but smart players know how to use Greninja, heck, most players in general know how to use a Greninja and mitigate these issues as best they can because it is so simple and easy.
How to use Greninja:
Bring Greninja when you get a free switch
Click the optimum attack and switch out when the revenge killer switches in
Profit $$$
Lather, rinse, repeat
Endless profit $$$
And you can even determine it's unhealthiness to the tier by how easy it is to slap it on teams and gain from it. Even ridiculously overused mons such as Lando-T and the Lati twins have noticeable flaws to prevent from me from using the all the time like how I can do with Greninja.
At least with Aegislash who was the very core of the tier there was the debate wether it's presence was positive or negative for the metagame. Greninja just makes everything boring and stale due to how easy it is to use and how hard it is to defend against so there isn't even much positive to gain from it's presence, not much unlike Mega Mawile. So it is pretty hard for me to be anti-ban on this one.
However I'm gonna relax on christmas so I'm not gonna bother to get the reqs (never do anyways ^^) so I just better hope not everyone think like me and won't bother getting the reqs while the anti-ban group gets all the reqs xD
but yeah ban Greninja pls. It is just better than the rest and OU ain't ready for it the way it is atm.
I'll be nice and not delete your post since you promoted some good anti ban points, and you obviously put a lot of time and effort into it. That said, I want to avoid seeing the following argument...
With Greninja gone, some of the best Pokemon in the game will get objectively better. However, whether this is good or bad is personal opinion (for the most part). In my opinion it means we are giving up 1 "OP" Pokemon and getting 2-3+ in return...
I mentioned this argument in my Suspect Etiquette thread as to why this is an issue, and thus, I don't want to see this posted again. Period. We don't keep an unhealthy aspect of the metagame around because it (potentially), checks other unhealthy elements that might possibly be unhealthy without the presence of Greninja in the metagame. If Greninja goes and Mega Metagross is unhealthy than it will eventually go as well, but keeping unhealthy aspects within the metagame opens the door for quite a few things to stay in the metagame. In BW someone suggested dropping Giratina down to OU to check Rain/Sun and you can potentially make similar arguments for bringing back Ubers to balance things out. Its not a slippery slope by any means, but the actual argument deteriorates into a horrible circlejerk and doesn't actually address the primary reason why Greninja is being suspected, which is, that its potentially an unhealthy force in the metagame. Tailor your arguments to answering the following question "Is Greninja an unhealthy and/or centralising force on the metagame, why/why not", as it leads to much more positive discussion.
For god's sake, I see so many people saying 'hey if you need to beat this Pokemon then use this move.'
Fine. Say that all you want. But what if there is a Pokemon on the opponents side that you don't have a move for. What if there's a T-Tar that you don't have Low Kick for? What if there's a Rotom you don't have HP Grass for? SOMETHING WILL ALWAYS WALL YOU. Sure Greninja can be tailored to fit your team, but Greninja can't beat everything it needs to with a single spread. That's its biggest problem. Please people, stop saying that it beats everything, because it really doesn't.
Of course it's going to get walled by pokes when running a certain set of moves, but that's why you have a squad of 5 other Pokemon to back you up. You might not run Low Kick for T-Tar, but you might have another Fighting type on your team to deal with that. Same with Rotom-W and HP Grass. Mega Sceptile, Freeze-Dry Mamo, Mega Venusaur or anything else running Grass coverage could also already be on your team.
This is what makes Greninja so good. It's the bloke you need to take out things you don't have coverage for.
Lots of peeps seem to be speaking their mind about Greninja here, so I guess I'll add my two cents rather than just quote someone. Greninja is frail. Greninja is kinda wrecked by priority. It's Special Attack isn't even that great. But this simple frog, as much as it seems I'm whining, which, yes, I am, makes me really not want to play OU anymore. It rips apart my preferred playstyle, balance. I don't want to have to worry about the mon with a thousand moves it could possibly hit me with. I've said this a million times. I'm not scouting, I'm not running Chansey, I'm not running Porygon2, Sp. Defense Gyarados, or any of that. Greninja, though we all know its movepool, is all about the surprise factor. We don't know what four moves Greninja's going to pick, but those four moves dictate how the entire match will go. In a metagame where Greninja is at the top of OU and is used on almost every team that has even a LITTLE bit of offense to it, the first thing I find myself thinking is "okay, how am I going to check Greninja...". I was here back when Aegislash was banned. I agree with his ban, but I'd literally rather have Aegislash here than Greninja. Not to beat a dead horse, but Aegislash had huge offenses, could do a bunch of different roles effectively...but it had its flaws. Weak to ground and dark, especially weak to Knock Off, etc...back to Greninja, it doesn't have as many glaring flaws. Take a look.
Does your team have a teamslot dedicated to a Greninja check / counter? No? Good game. You lose. What I hate about Greninja is that I find myself dedicating an entire teamslot to one Pokemon. In fact, I've tried out Alomomola, Porygon2, RestTalk Gyarados, all of the supposed "counters" to Greninja. All of Greninja's "checks" get screwed over by one of its moves bar Porygon2. Alomomola is 2HKO'd by Grass Knot, Gyarados has a 95% chance to be 2HKO'd by Grass Knot...I can go on. Responding to a point that someone made earlier, if Greninja stays, he'll just start running Hidden Power Electric + Low Kick to check Gyarados.
Greninja's blistering speed means that you pretty much need priority or a scarfer on your team. In theory, this sounds pretty easy. Talonflame. Conkeldurr. But the thing is, you guys arguing for Greninja to stay seem to forget that he can literally just leave. Bye. Something else takes out your scarfer or priority mon, and bam. GG. Greninja has just the right power and coverage to dominate the metagame, backed by an amazing speed. It's just, not all playstyles can afford to run what is needed to check Greninja.
So, why do I, one single user of this thread of many users, believe Greninja should be banned? Well, it's a lot of reasons, actually, but I don't want to exclude all the reasons why it shouldn't be banned. There definitely are some valid arguments against it, but to be honest, Greninja ties a lot of teams together. This means...are people opposing the ban because they don't want their team to lose effeciency a bit? This is the thing. I've used Greninja. It's good. It's frail. But...are the people opposing the ban users of Greninja who have found a way to decimate opposing teams? That's just a thought, but...anyway.
Greninja should be banned because: 1. Coverage. It has fire (might not count because you need hp), grass, water, psychic, dark, poison, and fighting coverage, among others, so you have to choose four of these moves. Like I said earlier, the moves Greninja chooses WILL dictate what KOs it gets. 2. Speed. It's fast enough to outspeed many things. Know what outspeeds it (not counting scarves)? Mega Beedrill, Mega Sceptile, Mega Lopunny, Talonflame, and Mega Manectric. Now, notice how almost all of those are megas. I'm not changing my mega to deal with ONE pokemon. 3. It doesn't require a mega slot. A pokemon that does its job so well wouldn't be as op if it were a mega, if that makes any sense. Because that'd be the mega. But Greninja can be paired with ANOTHER devastating mon, and together, they wipe the floor with teams.
Greninja SHOULDN'T be banned because: 1. It's frail. Paper-thin defenses allow it to be picked off by just about any strong neutral hit. 2. It's weak to priority. Yeah, that's true, but with the right coverage move, you don't care about priority. Anticipate Conk to come in and Mach Punch? Become psychic-type or something. Greninja can change its type to get new resists, and that is NOT A REASON IT SHOULD NOT BE BANNED! The type change is all that Greninja is, and it is what makes Greninja great: Protean.
Ban
Greninja has decent offensive stats and a good base speed, his coverage is insanelly good and it pressures a lot in team building.
You are basically forced to use bulky waters and something else that kind of complement the other possible moves of ninja, and if you are not using something like that, you need to play around and see what moveset he is using. I understand the fact that Life Orb slowly kills him but he will put a lot of damage on your mons too.
The fact that people are using Alomomola and Empoleon just shows the fact that he needs to go. And before saying that he is frail af, remember Deoxys A has 20 defense bases and following the logics TFlame can kill it with Brave Bird :]
As is so often the case, some confusion often arrises in suspect thread when MSS comes up. On the face of it, the anti ban side is 100% correct when it argues that Greninja cannot run 12 moves at once. It is also true that Greninja does have checks, and it does have counters, largely depending on what moves it runs. However, the anti ban side still has to go one step further because...
The Pro Ban side is actually claiming that while Greninja cannot run 12 moves at once, you don't know what 4 moves its running, and that makes handling it exceptionally difficult. You can try bringing in Ferrothorn and run into a surprise Hidden Power Fire, maybe accidentally bring in Tentacruel into STABB Psychic attack and so on. Xtrashine made a great point that you can run multiple counters to Greninja, so that no matter what moves it runs, you still have an answer. The real crux of the question is the following:
"Does Greninja enforce unhealthy amounts of over preparation for Balance / Offensive teams in order to deal with the wide range of potential moves it can run, and if so is this unhealthy enough to such a large degree that it warrants a ban from the OU tier".
Someone can prolly refine that slightly better, but its roughly what this whole 4MSS argument boils down towards.
The problem with Greninja is that it's completely impossible to prepare for it. It can do anything with it's variety of moves; making it impossible to counter. You can't counter Greninja, just Greninja without Low Kick, Greninja without x move etc. This is unhealthy to the metagame because even the strongest S-Rank Pokemon have something that can always counter them bar gimmicky sets made specifically to remove a few counters. This gives Greninja's trainer all the power, and forces the opponent to guess what Greninja is about to do. It can fit on almost every team and is completely overcentralizing.
