np: ORAS OU Suspect Testing, Round 1 - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles [Greninja is Uber]

[Aura Flare Riolu]

Is it really a complex ban, though? Not saying gunk shot should be banned or he had any right to suggest that, but smogon did ban swagger. Note that I do not advocate for gunk shot to be banned. Just want to know how banning gunk shot would be any more of a complex ban than swagger.

Swagger was easy to ban. Gunk Shot isn't as that'll ban Gunk Shot from every other Pokemon as well.

 

[Choice Banned]

Swagger was easy to ban. Gunk Shot isn't as that'll ban Gunk Shot from every other Pokemon as well.

Yeah, the difference between these two is that Swagger is uncompetitive on any pokemon you slap it on to due to it's effects, yet Gunk Shot is not broken on any other pokemon that gets it (The irony is, most of the mons that get it AREN'T EVEN POISON TYPES).

 

[TheTraininator]

Is it really a complex ban, though? Not saying gunk shot should be banned or he had any right to suggest that, but smogon did ban swagger. Note that I do not advocate for gunk shot to be banned. Just want to know how banning gunk shot would be any more of a complex ban than swagger.

The Swagger ban was different - Smogon outright banned the move on EVERYTHING because they deemed that Swagger itself was an inherently uncompetitive move. There was nothing complex about it, it was just like any regular item or Pokemon ban. Gunk Shot, on the other hand, isn't an inherently uncompetitive or broken move, so banning the move outright would be a terrible idea because it would make it so that EVERY POKEMON that learned it could not use it. Banning the combination of Gunk Shot and Greninja is what I referred to earlier as a complex ban, which is where things become muddy, since then we'll start banning things like Blaziken + Baton Pass, Aegislash + King's Shield, Darkrai + Dark Void, until the OU tier is a mess of unmemorizable rules and clauses and you have to read an entire textbook just to learn how to play the tier.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

The "no safe switch" thing that everyone keeps bringing up really comes down to the person facing the greninja just getting out-predicted. If you switch in tentacruel and he sees it coming and uses extrasensory, you just got outplayed. That's not greninja being overpowered.

Back in your day (whenever that may have been, I hardly consider Gen 4 back in the day) there wasn't an immense Power Creep, now, there's nothing but.
Aside from that, I'll let everyone else tear the rest of your statement apart and just say, It's not really prediction, it's clicking whatever move you feel like because you're probably going to 2HKO anyways.

 

[Elveman]

I remember back in my day, the Ubers tier was created as a place to dump all the overpowered legendary pokemon with ridiculously high BST. Now look what we have come to, banning frail little frogs because of a wide moveset and decent ability. People argue that there's no 100% counter therefore it doesn't belong in OU, but I think that's ridiculous. Pokemon is a 6v6 game. You're supposed to use your pokemon collectively as a team to win matches. With the combination of life orb, other residual damage, and priority, greninja isn't going to last very long. Not to mention that while it may be hard to switch into a greninja, greninja can't switch into many attacks himself either. You're never going to be able to have a solid counter for each of your opponents pokemon, you just have to find a way to work around that. That's what pokemon is.

The "no safe switch" thing that everyone keeps bringing up really comes down to the person facing the greninja just getting out-predicted. If you switch in tentacruel and he sees it coming and uses extrasensory, you just got outplayed. That's not greninja being overpowered.

I think for something to be Uber, it should be completely unfair if it were to be in OU. Mega Salamence I can see as uber, because it can just lolsweep through entire teams. Greninja can't do that. Sure, he can be a nuisance, and a pretty good pokemon, but since when do we ban pokemon just because they give teams a little bit of difficulty? Once he's gone, another pokemon will just step up and take his place, and then they'll probably get banned. This has to stop somewhere.

Mega-mawille also seems like a great check to greninja, perhaps we should allow that back into OU.

And you might want to change the title, since greninja is a frog, not a turtle.

Prediction argument is a shaky one since it goes both ways. Landorus-T, for example, has safe switch-ins in Skarmory, Gliscor or Landorus-T independently of prediction.
And also "Broken checks broken" is by no means a good argument since Mega-maw will centralize meta at the cost of checking one pokemon (checking, NOT countering).

 

[TeslaMouse]

I remember back in my day, the Ubers tier was created as a place to dump all the overpowered legendary pokemon with ridiculously high BST. Now look what we have come to, banning frail little frogs because of a wide moveset and decent ability. People argue that there's no 100% counter therefore it doesn't belong in OU, but I think that's ridiculous. Pokemon is a 6v6 game. You're supposed to use your pokemon collectively as a team to win matches. With the combination of life orb, other residual damage, and priority, greninja isn't going to last very long. Not to mention that while it may be hard to switch into a greninja, greninja can't switch into many attacks himself either. You're never going to be able to have a solid counter for each of your opponents pokemon, you just have to find a way to work around that. That's what pokemon is.

Power creep happened Mega Kanga, Aegislash, etc. Having a solid counter doesn't matter. We already picked apart the priority argument. Iron fist Infernape mach punch and mach punch conkeldurr KO's Mega Lucario. Doesn't stop it from being uber.

The "no safe switch" thing that everyone keeps bringing up really comes down to the person facing the greninja just getting out-predicted. If you switch in tentacruel and he sees it coming and uses extrasensory, you just got outplayed. That's not greninja being overpowered.

Nobody is saying that being outpredicted by Greninja user is what makes it OP.

I think for something to be Uber, it should be completely unfair if it were to be in OU. Mega Salamence I can see as uber, because it can just lolsweep through entire teams. Greninja can't do that. Sure, he can be a nuisance, and a pretty good pokemon, but since when do we ban pokemon just because they give teams a little bit of difficulty? Once he's gone, another pokemon will just step up and take his place, and then they'll probably get banned. This has to stop somewhere.

What is your definition of "unfair"? Really, I am on the fence about Greninja being "OP", but if I have to pick a side, I'll be safe and go with uber. After all checking it with fairies doesn't work anymore now that it can know gunk shot.

Mega-mawille also seems like a great check to greninja, perhaps we should allow that back into OU.

Just like in Yugioh you don't unban something OP to deal with something OP. Just ban the OP thing and keep both OP things out of the game. It's a win win. You say unban mega mawhile to check Greninja? Then we'd need to unban something to check Mega Mawhile. Where would it end?

And you might want to change the title, since greninja is a frog, not a turtle.

Irrelevant to the topic at hand and only serves as a red herring. That has been addressed earlier. Attack the arguments, not the title.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Okay, can we stop bringing up Past Suspects? They're gone, and whether or not they checked or countered Ninja is irrelevant. The meta is healthier now that they are gone. This is about Greninja. Whether "Broken checks broken" is a bad argument or not doesn't matter, it's an irrelevant argument. mMaw and Aegi aren't coming back, so let's not mention them.

TeslaMouse that wasn't directed at you. It was for the other two mentioning them.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Good Riddance.. oh wait we didn't get that far yet?

Yeah this thing needs to go, like many others have said, this meta pretty much works around this one pokemon. Having to hold on to multiple checks in a game just to work around it's possible movesets is just asinine. It's only down fault is it's 4MSS but that actually is what makes this mon the most unhealthy, the fact you need to scout it's moveset potentially losing a mon or two.. 4MSS in greninja's case works to his advantage due to sheer unpredictability and versatility. He checks far too many mons in comparison to what checks him, he is extremely difficult to play around..

Ban

 

[RoyalDispenser]

I think it's perfectly viable to bring up current ubers that have a chance of making it back into OU, as they directly relate to the banning of greninja. In order to find the best solution to creating a balanced metagame, we have to look at it as a whole, not focus in on one small thing at a time. If we say "forget mawille while we discuss greninja," and then greninja gets banned, imagine how much harder it would be to bring them both back into OU where (in my opinion) they belong? This idea of bringing back pokemon is no more "flawed" than the thought of continuously banning pokemon.

Now, even without priority, there are a lot of things that can either outpace it and KO it, or take a hit from it and KO it. If you read through all of the comments, the only thing people are complaining about is that there is no pokemon that can somehow survive every single attack he can possibly have. I mean, hello? What do you expect from a mixed attacker. I bet you can't find one thing that can take every single one of Garchomp's attacks. Fairy's get hit with Poison Jab/Iron Head. Ferrothorn and Skarmory get hit with Fire Blast. Chansey gets hit with Brick Break. Gliscor is hit with HP Ice. Draco Meteor, Outrage, Earthquake, Rock slide, and Aqua Tail cover just about everything else. Do you see how you can make this argument about any top OU threat?

Broken checking broken is not a viable argument at all. Mawile did what greninja does, forced you to sap a mon and can deal with all it's checks and counters. (Heatran? W-o-W? Wynaut sub focus punch!) It's gone and gone for good unless some rediculously huge meta shift occurs in another generation.

Inreguards to garchomp.. almost every physical wall can handle him. Quaqsire is a counter, air balloon heatran is a hard check, mamoswine is a check, greninja is a hard check, scarf keldeo is a counter, M-altaria is a check I believe, list goes on. Fire blast is kinda meh since it just 2HKO's two pokemon on switch in and reveals your set. Outrage does more to chansey than brick break Lol, and HP ice is stupid.

 

[ThePack]

I think it's perfectly viable to bring up current ubers that have a chance of making it back into OU, as they directly relate to the banning of greninja. In order to find the best solution to creating a balanced metagame, we have to look at it as a whole, not focus in on one small thing at a time. If we say "forget mawille while we discuss greninja," and then greninja gets banned, imagine how much harder it would be to bring them both back into OU where (in my opinion) they belong? This idea of bringing back pokemon is no more "flawed" than the thought of continuously banning pokemon.

Now, even without priority, there are a lot of things that can either outpace it and KO it, or take a hit from it and KO it. If you read through all of the comments, the only thing people are complaining about is that there is no pokemon that can somehow survive every single attack he can possibly have. I mean, hello? What do you expect from a mixed attacker. I bet you can't find one thing that can take every single one of Garchomp's attacks. Fairy's get hit with Poison Jab/Iron Head. Ferrothorn and Skarmory get hit with Fire Blast. Chansey gets hit with Brick Break. Gliscor is hit with HP Ice. Draco Meteor, Outrage, Earthquake, Rock slide, and Aqua Tail cover just about everything else. Do you see how you can make this argument about any top OU threat?

The thing is, you have two options. Run all those attacks on a regular chomp, meaning you get outsped by quite a large percentage of the tier (>Base 100s) and revenge-killed easily, due to the prominence of faster dragon types, such as Latis or priority. Or, you have the option of running a choice scarfed Chomp, in which case you're locked into one move and that limits the utility of the pokemon heavily.
Greninja on the other hand, is an entirely different ballgame. You talk about Garchomp's movepool? Its diversity is like a lake, compared to an ocean of possibilities with Greninja. In addition, priority does not always allow the user to KO Greninja. With Garchomp, you could KO with Ice Shard easily, however, due to Protean, Greninja has the ability to become a Ghost type, negating the ability for Mach Punch from say, a Conkeldurr to KO after rocks. You mention that there are a lot of things that outpace it, these being pokemon either choiced or with a Base speed greater than 100. In regards to the former, most of the effective choice scarf users such as Scarf Landorus force Greninja into a switch-or-die situation; they don't successfully revenge-kill it, unless the player plays recklessly with it. With the latter, only a small percentage of the tier outspeeds Greninja, and most are mega evolutions.
Hence, you could say Greninja would be forcing people to run those pokemon in order to account for it. Greninja ATM defines the ORAS OU metagame. As for things that take a hit? Only fat walls can really eat up a hit, meaning that the use of Greninja has limited the use of HO teams. How is this beneficial for the OU meta?

 

[Alexer Hdz]

92 / 103 offenses are not the best but, who cares? you just get a free choice band/specs boost on any move thanks to protean, also having a life orb equiped greninja does almost the same damage as Deoxys-A

252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-A Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 785-925 (237.1 - 279.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 785-925 (237.1 - 279.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 195-230 (58.9 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-A Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 227-268 (68.5 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Using Alomomola (who loses to grass knot and hp grass) and porygon2 in OU just for greninja makes it more worthly of a ban, its fast, not the faster but still fast, even "fast" pokemon like thundurus and some 110 mons cant touch greninja without holding a choice scarf
"it losses to priority"
what kind of priority? greninja already resists bullet punch and talon cant even ko greninja if it isnt holding a choice band, mach punch users namely conkeldurr (who is terrible in OU) and breelom cant switch in also cant revenge kil if greninja stays and it already changed its type to poison/psychic and, dragonite and entei cant even ko greninja with extreme speed and greninja can ko back for sure

Also its irrelevant if it sucks or not in the ubers "tier"
i think comments like "hey its my favorite pokemon" "i use him on 10/10 of my teams pls dont ban" "smogon sucks just ban everything but bidoff and magikarp already XDD" "empoleon, cress and porygon2 can deal with greninja, pls do not ban" should not be counted
you know something its broken when u need around 3 mons on ur team just for him

Ban greninja, definitely

 

[ThePack]

Alright, we all know this thing is a little bitch with its new mixed sets thanks to ORAS giving him low kick and gunk shot. Checking chansey,azumarill and clefable, a few of his main counters. But the question is, should this pokemon be banned in OU? No. Even though it does check chansey and azu, it still has other counters. for example, scarfed Landorus-t, Banded Tflame, and Rotom-Wash. Another reason why this shouldn't be banned in OU is because it simply gets classed with the Uber pokemon. Darkrai and Lugia are only a few of the Uber pokemon that can trash greninja. While this thing is a little bitch in the OU metagame, it simply cannot keep up in the Ubers tier and still has a bit of counters in the OU metagame. If they were to make another BL, it would be in there.

Please be careful with your choice of words. "A Counter is something that can 100% switch in and hard wall, or force an unfavourable situation for said pokemon." Standard Rotom-W gets 2HKO'd by Dark Pulse from Greninja, Landorus-T doesn't appreciate any hit and Talon can't switch in on an attack if rocks are up. These are CHECKS, not counters.
Secondly, read the Suspect Etiquette thread as TheTraininator stated. Also, what you are effectively saying is: don't ban a potentially broken pokemon that ruins the tier that it is currently in, because it does not perform well in the tier that it could get banned to.

Bummer Edit: And here's an article defining checks and counters.

 

[fabiohimself]

Not a single person is mentioning its usage rate in the top 500. from 300-500 you have random 1600s using greninja and empoleon, then you have a bunch of tryhards running stall and in the top 100 you see maybe one every 10 teams, always running low kick and gunk shot. Nobody up there runs HP fire because you lose speed ties, nobody runs Grass Knot because it doesn't do anything to rotom-w and nobody runs HP grass because it's worthless against bulky pure waters.

Greninja's illusion of variety is the same that Aegislash had and it is nowhere near the universal glue that was Aegislash or that is Lando-T.

Aegislash's ban was arguably the closest and most controversial in smogon history and Greninja doesn't come close to it.

Absolutely No Ban. Re-test Aegislash, Mawile and #freegenesect if you want a wider S-Tier.

 

[Punchshroom]

Greninja's illusion of variety is the same that Aegislash had and it is nowhere near the universal glue that was Aegislash or that is Lando-T.

I would argue that Greninja makes for one of the best offensive glues in the meta due to Protean giving it STAB on pretty much any move u want. The limitless options means the opponent won't know what moves Ninja would be packing until it is too late.

Re-test Aegislash, Mawile and #freegenesect if you want a wider S-Tier.

Or we could not go through with the terrible idea of unbanning recently banned mons (which would mess up & overcentralise the meta all over again:P) and just get Ninja out of here, then sort out the S-tier from there.

 

[Elveman]

Not that op? maybe :]

Hide

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 324-382 (113.6 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 234-276 (82.1 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 504-600 (176.8 - 210.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 270-320 (94.7 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 558-654 (195.7 - 229.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 300-354 (105.2 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 334-396 (117.1 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
52 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 283-335 (80.6 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 297-351 (104.2 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 606-714 (212.6 - 250.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Porygon2 Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 200-236 (70.1 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

All these pokes (aside of P2) are checks to Greninja, not counters. They can't switch into Gren's attacks. Mega Khan's calc is irrelevant also.

Hide

216 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 525-619 (176.7 - 208.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
216 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 133-157 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 160-188 (52.6 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Two versions or Rotom-W, 2-shot after Rocks)
216 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 478-564 (183.1 - 216%) -- guaranteed OHKO
40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 281-330 (80 - 94%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
216 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Garchomp: 801-951 (224.3 - 266.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
216 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 199-235 (73.1 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yes, outspeeds. And can't switch next time if SR are on the field

Also,

252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Greninja: 83-98 (29.1 - 34.3%) -- 3.9% chance to 3HKO

You can't even revenge kill Gren with Breloom after Gunk Shot

 

[Kyuzeth]

Greninja - At first, Greninja's offensive stats don't really seem like much. 91/103 looks pretty average, if not a bit low, but let's not forget this amphibian runs Life Orb and has Protean as its Ability to power up all of its moves. Another thing Protean is excellent for is the type switch, which allows Greninja to cover its own weak spots without relying on teammates. While this can be exploited somewhat easily, the coverage that Greninja possesses makes it so that virtually nothing can escape being hit supereffectively. As previously mentioned, Greninja no longer has solid counters at all, since Azumarill and Chansey fall to Gunk Shot, not to mention Chansey being hit hard by Low Kick as well. Ice Beam is a ridiculously spammable move with brutal coverage and great power, while Dark Pulse has a nifty flinch chance and strikes the many Psychic-types residing in OU for tons of damage. The issue of 4MSS has been brought up, but for something like Greninja, it can be a good thing, since this makes it unpredictable as all fuck and turns many matches into simple guessing games; predicting the wrong coverage move or finding out Greninja packs a rare move you wouldn't expect from it right now (Grass Knot, Hydro Pump, Extrasensory...) can cost you either a vital Pokémon for your team or the entire match.
With all this raw offensive force comes 122 Speed. While Greninja IS outsped by many new Mega Evolutions, there's still a slew it outspeeds and most base forms are slower than frog anyway and take a hard hit to the face while Mega Evolving. A majority of non-Scarfers is outpaced and with its excellent coverage and great power, Greninja has way too easy a time shredding whole teams with little to no support.

I may not have too much to say about it and I'm probably repeating stuff, so here's a little something about our favorite ninja frog:

Feel free to read this or not

From the region of Kalos hails a Water-type
Who quickly made his name among the Overused
With his success, he lived up to the global hype
And all who used him were greatly amused

Greninja is a top contender, always among the best
The other Water Starters proved to be no contest
And although he was better than all the rest
It took him a long time to achieve the rank of S

But then came the storm and the terrible drought
With his new moves, he could knock anyone out
Even his former nemeses were left frightened and rattled
As then, nobody could face Greninja equally in battle

So now, my fellows, now is the time to decide
Whether or not we'll let him continue to fight
Let's all unite and not be forced into another divide:
Greninja shall advance toward the Olympic light.

 

[Aelsorm]

92 / 103 offenses are not the best but, who cares? you just get a free choice band/specs boost on any move thanks to protean, also having a life orb equiped greninja does almost the same damage as Deoxys-A

252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-A Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 785-925 (237.1 - 279.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 785-925 (237.1 - 279.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 195-230 (58.9 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-A Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 227-268 (68.5 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Using Alomomola (who loses to grass knot and hp grass) and porygon2 in OU just for greninja makes it more worthly of a ban, its fast, not the faster but still fast, even "fast" pokemon like thundurus and some 110 mons cant touch greninja without holding a choice scarf
"it losses to priority"
what kind of priority? greninja already resists bullet punch and talon cant even ko greninja if it isnt holding a choice band, mach punch users namely conkeldurr (who is terrible in OU) and breelom cant switch in also cant revenge kil if greninja stays and it already changed its type to poison/psychic and, dragonite and entei cant even ko greninja with extreme speed and greninja can ko back for sure

Also its irrelevant if it sucks or not in the ubers "tier"
i think comments like "hey its my favorite pokemon" "i use him on 10/10 of my teams pls dont ban" "smogon sucks just ban everything but bidoff and magikarp already XDD" "empoleon, cress and porygon2 can deal with greninja, pls do not ban" should not be counted
you know something its broken when u need around 3 mons on ur team just for him

Ban greninja, definitely

So let's start deeper discussion...
your arguments are more or less "Doesnt matter stats, he gets STAB on everything!" and "Too good coverage". It is certainly right... but let's think about it.

Most of Pokemon gets two STABS (some just one). Those are their stronger attacks that they can hit with neutral effectivness...
Greninja though, has STAB on everything. That means his low stats are comparable to something like Deoxys A using Ice Beam when Greninja uses Ice Beam.

but when for example Deoxys wants to hit something really hard and it is neutral to it, it's different. Let's take calc of strongest neutral effectivness...
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 101-121 (15.7 - 18.8%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-A Psycho Boost vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 195-230 (30.3 - 35.8%) -- 36.7% chance to 3HKO

You can see... so basically you could say, Greninja is good as long as it carries super effective move against its opponent, because if it fails to carry one, then Greninja is pretty much fucked done.

You started to comparing Deoxys A and Greninja, so lets continue, for example Garchomp, Deoxys doesnt have to use Ice Beam to wear it down. It may use Psycho Boost so if opponent decides to switch out, you have at least hurt anything a lot with his powerful STAB.
Greninja simply cannot, if it decides to go for Hydro Pump it doesn't even kill Garchomp, so it forced to predict the situation where Deoxys is simply not. Regice (I chose him because hes one of Pokemon that resists Ice Beam and is neutral to STABs of Greninja and Deoxys, so you could see the difference) can come onto Ice Beam of Greninja and take it, Greninja wont leave a scratch here, but Deoxys used Psycho Boost, because the Ice Beam didn't really mattered, so it would be better to use neutral move and it leaves the scratch on Regice quite noticeably.

My point is - yes, Greninja has STAB on everything but his STABs are not comparable to STABs of other Pokemon. His STABs on coverage moves outweights his not so good stats and his strongest STAB is not as strong as for example Gallade's Close Combat because it simply is not different from power of his coverage.

Greninja usually forces to some easy predictions, thats right, but there are still many situations you can switch out against Greninja and survive and possibly Revenge kill it.

THE OTHER FACT is that you say "Greninja gets kill everytime it comes out" - thats not right, it might fail to kill if it fails to predict and those are not rare situations, imagine using Ice Beam while Scizor switch onto him... then you did not get the kill because of prediction. And you cannot forget that same as you cannot switch onto Greninja reliably he cannot switch onto anything as well... well actually to be honest, you may switch some Pokemon into majority of his attack, but with residual damage from SR and LO Greninja can basically switch into nothing. That means BEST CASE SCENARIO revenge killer that gets 1 for 1, worst case scenario 0 for 2 (Scizor situation if you dont switch - predicting for example roost, using HP Fire, wore down by Bullet Punch).
So I cannot see really point why it should be banned.

You could as well consider that there is Mega Metagross and Slowbro, quite OP now, that Greninja can counter and those are really powerful threats.

 

[WideTomato]

It's not that you cant deal with greninja, because you can. Guys, this is not a quikban/no quikban, this is a suspect test. Just because you are able to deal with it, does not mean it is not broken. Greninja is just really consistently good, and the question is not ''can you deal with it'' but rather ''does it have a negative impact on the metagame''

 

[aman2420]

So I usually try to stay out of these suspects, but this is one that I feel I really know a decent amount about. I run greninja on most of my OU teams, and I feel that in ORAS OU, it has grown stronger, but not yet to the level of being broken. I feel it is a strong pokemon indeed, but there are many "strong" pokemon in the metagame (many dragons come to mind) but we haven't and are not going to ban a pokemon just because it is strong. I see greninja for this reason as more of a guardian of the metagame then a broken pokemon. It may have protean life orb for great damage with great stab and base 122 speed, but also remember it has major 4 mss. Also, for you guys saying it has no counters, before i go into how wrong that is, let me remind you its physical attack is ONLY 97 and its 4 mss and how much it suffers from it, as this leads into how wrong people are about it having no counters.

So greninja, despite what everyone says, has some counters. As it can only run 4 moves, it can only counter so many pokemon. So really it depends on what your team is running for you to decide on your moves. There will always be pokemon that can take it out (and even if it is already in a type, then it gains new weaknesses). For example, if you dont run ice beam, then you don't cover dragons; and if you are already set on ice beam, then either mach punch conkeldurr or focus blast mega alakazam could easily take it out. If you don't run dark pulse, then you don't cover psychic types; and if you are in dark pulse then you are still weak to mach punch and focus blast. If you don't run hydro pump, then you don't cover fire types, and if you are already in hydro pump, then you are weak to grass types or electric moves like giga drain from mega venusaur or thunderbolt from porygon2.

(these calcs to check how well gren could deliver a hit were changed between timid and naive, for whatever nature was in best favor of greninja surviving/killing)

252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 276-328 (96.5 - 114.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (def OHKO after even 1 attack from greninja)
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 476-562 (166.4 - 196.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (no question there)
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 254-302 (88.8 - 105.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (but can tank gren's best coverage for it):
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 140-166 (38.4 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 94-112 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 250-296 (68.6 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja U-turn vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 60-71 (16.4 - 19.5%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 382-452 (134 - 158.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (even though slower, can tank gren's only coverage):
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Porygon-Z: 218-257 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So the notable moves I know of are extrasensory, grass knot, hp grass, hp fire, dark pulse, scald, hydro pump, dark pulse, ice beam, spikes, gunk shot, low kick, u-turn, and toxic spikes. That seems like the most OCD way of having 4 mss. I feel like any player that runs greninja suffers from OCD about not covering enough with the moves they choose. And also, its not like unless ur running a sash set that it can really safely switch into a pokemon freely. It has such mediocre bulk that its not like it can wall everything while ruining teams. Plus, even if it is a sash set, if you have any rocks down then the rocks break the sash. And not only does it suffer from 4 mss, but its only move to boost damage is Power Up Punch, which is outclassed by all its other moves it needs to give someone a headache over deciding for. Plus, if you even carry a couple of pokemon that aren't frail (meaning that it can take at least 1 hit under normal curcumstances) then you can just make it kill itself from life orb. Most likely, greninja will be banned, but I hope that is is Not Banned.

 

[dadoux]

I should as well mention, that I battled him many times and I never had problems to deal with him.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ad-before-posting-in-suspect-threads.3522684/

"-Thirdly, just because you beat Mega Mawile while you have an Elo rating of 1000 does not mean its not broken. If you want to use battle statistics in your argument, look at the top tier battles, the VR posters, the Tourney scene, use really good examples. Its much harder to refuse your points if you are a highly respected battler, usually because it means people trust and respect your opinion, regardless as to which way you vote. The lower you are on the ladder, the less Mega mawile will be used successfully and intelligently, so please bear that in mind."

Replace mega mawile with Greninja. Talking about a suspected mon should be paired with an objective thinking, talking about your personal experiences doesn't make Greninja a bad Pokemon.

 

[WideTomato]

So I usually try to stay out of these suspects, but this is one that I feel I really know a decent amount about. I run greninja on most of my OU teams, and I feel that in ORAS OU, it has grown stronger, but not yet to the level of being broken. I feel it is a strong pokemon indeed, but there are many "strong" pokemon in the metagame (many dragons come to mind) but we haven't and are not going to ban a pokemon just because it is strong. I see greninja for this reason as more of a guardian of the metagame then a broken pokemon. It may have protean life orb for great damage with great stab and base 122 speed, but also remember it has major 4 mss. Also, for you guys saying it has no counters, before i go into how wrong that is, let me remind you its physical attack is ONLY 97 and its 4 mss and how much it suffers from it, as this leads into how wrong people are about it having no counters.

So greninja, despite what everyone says, has some counters. As it can only run 4 moves, it can only counter so many pokemon. So really it depends on what your team is running for you to decide on your moves. There will always be pokemon that can take it out (and even if it is already in a type, then it gains new weaknesses). For example, if you dont run ice beam, then you don't cover dragons; and if you are already set on ice beam, then either mach punch conkeldurr or focus blast mega alakazam could easily take it out. If you don't run dark pulse, then you don't cover psychic types; and if you are in dark pulse then you are still weak to mach punch and focus blast. If you don't run hydro pump, then you don't cover fire types, and if you are already in hydro pump, then you are weak to grass types or electric moves like giga drain from mega venusaur or thunderbolt from porygon2.

(these calcs to check how well gren could deliver a hit were changed between timid and naive, for whatever nature was in best favor of greninja surviving/killing)

252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 276-328 (96.5 - 114.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (def OHKO after even 1 attack from greninja)
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 476-562 (166.4 - 196.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (no question there)
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 254-302 (88.8 - 105.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (but can tank gren's best coverage for it):
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 140-166 (38.4 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 94-112 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 250-296 (68.6 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja U-turn vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 60-71 (16.4 - 19.5%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 382-452 (134 - 158.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (even though slower, can tank gren's only coverage):
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Porygon-Z: 218-257 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So the notable moves I know of are extrasensory, grass knot, hp grass, hp fire, dark pulse, scald, hydro pump, dark pulse, ice beam, spikes, gunk shot, low kick, u-turn, and toxic spikes. That seems like the most OCD way of having 4 mss. I feel like any player that runs greninja suffers from OCD about not covering enough with the moves they choose. And also, its not like unless ur running a sash set that it can really safely switch into a pokemon freely. It has such mediocre bulk that its not like it can wall everything while ruining teams. Plus, even if it is a sash set, if you have any rocks down then the rocks break the sash. And not only does it suffer from 4 mss, but its only move to boost damage is Power Up Punch, which is outclassed by all its other moves it needs to give someone a headache over deciding for. Plus, if you even carry a couple of pokemon that aren't frail (meaning that it can take at least 1 hit under normal curcumstances) then you can just make it kill itself from life orb. Most likely, greninja will be banned, but I hope that is is Not Banned.

Alright, ninja has checks, but remember the ''chose its counters part?

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 198-237 (56.4 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 53-63 (18.5 - 22%) -- possible 5HKO <- psychic type
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 250-296 (68.6 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Alakazam: 304-359 (120.6 - 142.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Aura Flare Riolu]

Everybody always does calculations against Greninja of it's original typing when Greninja is never going to be Water/Dark once it uses any move. The only time your Mach Punch will work is when it comes in, which it'll never do, or it KOed something with Dark Pulse. And even then, it can just switch out.

 

[ArcanePhoenix]

I have seen the frog quite a lot now, and the only time i didn't have to sac something in order to stop it was when my Zard-X was already raping the opponent's team.
Stomping the opponents team is pretty much the only way to go out without loosing something to that frog...

It has probably the most powerfull ability, together with a very high speed and a great movepool that can abuse this ability. This combination wasn't much of a problem during X/Y since Faity Types were able to withstand all attacks and killed it in return. Same goes for some Steel-Types which were able to take the standard set. But now, with Gunkshot and Low Kick it can destroy most former counter in 2 hits at best, and ohko them in some cases. Most counter messures rely on revenging and thus weakening the own team against other threats which are most likly to run rampant after Greninja killed it's check.

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Most checks are unreliable and depend on its movepool, on top of that they must have atleast 80-90% health to be safe, if rocks are not present on the field.
Offense almost always has to sac something, stall gets damaged pretty bad. And the 2 more or less safe counters Chansey and P2 don't fit into offensive teams.

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Greninja almost always will get a free round (or 2), because it revenges something, because it comes in after a slow u-turn or whatever. This free round will probably end in one dead or heavily damaged pokemon.
Also most checks are only safe after you know its movepool which is very unpredictable => Scouting. This alone ends with quite a nice dmg on your team...

The other sweepers will probably take care of the rest...

This frog has to go

 

[Thunderorange]

So I usually try to stay out of these suspects, but this is one that I feel I really know a decent amount about. I run greninja on most of my OU teams, and I feel that in ORAS OU, it has grown stronger, but not yet to the level of being broken. I feel it is a strong pokemon indeed, but there are many "strong" pokemon in the metagame (many dragons come to mind) but we haven't and are not going to ban a pokemon just because it is strong. I see greninja for this reason as more of a guardian of the metagame then a broken pokemon. It may have protean life orb for great damage with great stab and base 122 speed, but also remember it has major 4 mss. Also, for you guys saying it has no counters, before i go into how wrong that is, let me remind you its physical attack is ONLY 97 and its 4 mss and how much it suffers from it, as this leads into how wrong people are about it having no counters.

So greninja, despite what everyone says, has some counters. As it can only run 4 moves, it can only counter so many pokemon. So really it depends on what your team is running for you to decide on your moves. There will always be pokemon that can take it out (and even if it is already in a type, then it gains new weaknesses). For example, if you dont run ice beam, then you don't cover dragons; and if you are already set on ice beam, then either mach punch conkeldurr or focus blast mega alakazam could easily take it out. If you don't run dark pulse, then you don't cover psychic types; and if you are in dark pulse then you are still weak to mach punch and focus blast. If you don't run hydro pump, then you don't cover fire types, and if you are already in hydro pump, then you are weak to grass types or electric moves like giga drain from mega venusaur or thunderbolt from porygon2.

(these calcs to check how well gren could deliver a hit were changed between timid and naive, for whatever nature was in best favor of greninja surviving/killing)

252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 276-328 (96.5 - 114.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (def OHKO after even 1 attack from greninja)
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 476-562 (166.4 - 196.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (no question there)
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 254-302 (88.8 - 105.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (but can tank gren's best coverage for it):
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 140-166 (38.4 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 94-112 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 250-296 (68.6 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja U-turn vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 60-71 (16.4 - 19.5%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 382-452 (134 - 158.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (even though slower, can tank gren's only coverage):
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Porygon-Z: 218-257 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So the notable moves I know of are extrasensory, grass knot, hp grass, hp fire, dark pulse, scald, hydro pump, dark pulse, ice beam, spikes, gunk shot, low kick, u-turn, and toxic spikes. That seems like the most OCD way of having 4 mss. I feel like any player that runs greninja suffers from OCD about not covering enough with the moves they choose. And also, its not like unless ur running a sash set that it can really safely switch into a pokemon freely. It has such mediocre bulk that its not like it can wall everything while ruining teams. Plus, even if it is a sash set, if you have any rocks down then the rocks break the sash. And not only does it suffer from 4 mss, but its only move to boost damage is Power Up Punch, which is outclassed by all its other moves it needs to give someone a headache over deciding for. Plus, if you even carry a couple of pokemon that aren't frail (meaning that it can take at least 1 hit under normal curcumstances) then you can just make it kill itself from life orb. Most likely, greninja will be banned, but I hope that is is Not Banned.

Before I begin this frank analysis I just want to say I mean no offence, I am just calling this how I see it. From your post it is clear you have used greninja a great deal. You admit he is strong and you say you use him on many of your teams. Correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me that the only reason you are against the ban is because you want to keep on using and abusing Greninja. You acknowledge he is strong in your post before posting a wall of mostly irrelevant calcs and bringing up a few weak arguments that look to me as a reader to be desperate grasping at straws. I think that deep down you know that your calcs and arguments are irrelevant and that greninja is broken or at least deserving of this suspect. I am seeing this a lot on anti ban sides in suspect tests (I should know since I myself did this during an earlier suspect in X and Y), people are unwilling to let a mon that they have used and are using go and are instead trying to defend the indefensible by resorting to some extremely shaky arguments. I do not blame you nor am I trying to offend you but I will take this oppurtunity to warn other people thinking the way I have mentioned above: please don't let the love of a pokemon affect your arguments and views. I for one will be sad when greninja goes but I know it is for the best. Oh and just in case my previous sarcastic post's point was missed; Ban Greninja

 

[Cloud_Nine987]

major 4 mss

Greninja does not have 4MSS by any means. It seems you guys are forgetting the meaning of it. To quote the Smogon dictionary: "The situation in which a Pokemon has a multitude of moves available, but due to in-game mechanics, can only pick four. Often, this will lead to an exploitable weakness to something that said Pokemon can check." Greninja isn't necessarily a lone wolf in the sense that it does what it wants. It sounds silly at first, but what I mean is that Greninja runs the coverage its team needs. Like people said before, all it really needs is Gunk Shot and Ice Beam, and then the last two moves are coverage moves to support the team. Weak to steels? HP Fire. Weak to water-types? Grass Knot.

Just because Greninja has a lot of viable options DOESN'T mean it has 4MSS.