Greninja's usage or viability in Ubers is irrelevant. If it was the case, things like Deoxys-N, Arceus-Bug and Arceus-Ice would be in OU.
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Testing, Round 1 - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles [Greninja is Uber]
- Thread starter haunter
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Okay I was sick and teird of seeing this in the Aegislash suspect test (Which I was against banning), it's a stupid, lazy, irrelevant, and unoriginal arguement, if a pokemon is broken we should not have to hold onto it in order to stop something else from becoming broken. Also could you please tell us the points from you want to use instead of posting it for us to watch, nobody wants to watch a 9 minute video to see somebody's point
We don't do complex bans, plus banning Protean itself is unnecessary since Greninja is the only broken user of it and it is simply unfair to the lower tiers for us to stop them from using Kecleon and Frogadier viably because of our Greninja problem, this is Speed Boost Blaziken all over again (Ironaclly, both are starter Pokemon)
We are not making a complex ban for the sake of saving a single pokemon.
Evidence #1: We did not ban Speed Boost on Blaziken in Gen 5 or Gen 6. We made a complex ban for Drizzle + Swift Swim to preserve Drizzle and avoid banning at least 3 pokemon [Kingdra; Kabutops and Ludicolo], but we did not ban Sand Rush + Sand Stream because there was only a single abuser. We banned Excadrill.
Evidence #2: Common sense. Greninja is not the only pokemon with Protean. Kecleon also gets it. Is Kecleon broken? No. Even Bidoof with Moody was broken if it got lucky. Since Kecleon isn't broken, the problem is Greninja. It's like saying we should allow Darkrai in OU without Dark Void. That's stupid.
Protean is part of Greninja. We do not ban parts of pokemon. Drizzle + Swift Swim is not something a SINGLE pokemon can do, that's why it got complex banned.
It's definitely not predictable based on what your opponent has. Look at Charizard for instance. You can tell 90% of the time based on your opponents team whether it's Mega X or Mega Y, because there are generally only two options for him. Greninja has a lot more options than just two. Sure, sometimes you may be able to say, "oh hey, it's probably running Extrasensory", but it is still a guessing game as to what the other moves are, even if there is a centralized moveset.
The problem with Greninja is that you can switch in on something after you lose a Pokemon and force your opponent to make a huge guess as to what coverage your Greninja has. Look at the damage calcs posted earlier in this thread. Greninja not only has the ability to one shot top tier threats, but he has the moveset to take down Pokemon that he used to not cover very well.
Honestly, this whole Greninja debate is biased and unuseful.
I'm not trying to sound upset but I am as many people who are posting are putting one liners or simple "no's" to valid arguments.
Relating to Greninja, I'm saying that we BAN THE FROG.
It has no offensive switch ins. Now before all of you say that Stall counters it, you are only half right. Sure Greninja has a tough time with some stall, but Low Kick/Gunk Shot/Dark Pulse shatters a lot of the bulky pokemon seen on Stall Teams such as Chansey, Clefable, and now Cresselia.
Additionally, if you're arguing that you can run other things to stop greninja, it just proves that Greninja is overcentralizing, forcing you to run obscure checks such as Porygon-2 to barely check Greninja.
Now for offensive switch ins, Greninja has basically none. Everyone that states "OMG. my Lopunny can come in to revenge kill after" is failing to see that faster pokemon such as Mega Lopunny or Mega Manetric CAN NOT SWITCH IN.
This statement basically guarantees that Greninja will force a pokemon to switch or get a KO. How is that not broken at all? If you need to sack a pokemon to get rid of another, that is broken.
Also, don't expect Greninja to stay in on your Mega Lopunny! There are 5 other pokemon on a team with Greninja. Saying that Greninja is staying in on a High-Jump-Kick instead of switching to their defensive Landorus-T is not only foolish, but ignorant.
For my final argument, I am going to repeat a broken record.
GRENINJA DOES NOT HAVE 4MSS SYNDROME.
Everyone seems to forget that Greninja has 5 other teammates to fill in any weakness that Greninja or the team as a whole has.
Sure it can't run Gunk Shot/Low Kick/ HP Grass/ Grass Knot/Spikes/ Toxic Spikes/ HP Fire/ Extransensory/ Hydro Pump all in one moveslot.
However, with Ice Beam and Dark Pulse, it already covers almost half the meta and those two extra moves can be tailored to whatever its team is weak against.
Need to break stall? Run Low Kick for Chansey.
Need to rid the world of Azumarill? Run Gunk Shot.
Don't like Rotom-Wash because it didn't wash your clothes properly? Use HP Grass
Hate Ferrothorn? Use HP Fire
Can't stand Tentacruel? Bop it with an Extrasensory.
As you can see, Greninja doesn't need 20 slots to perform its job, it does just fine with 4.
Nothing switches in bar obscure pokes and some stall, and its versatility can adapt to your team based on its moves.
Once again, BAN Greninja.
I'm not trying to sound upset but I am as many people who are posting are putting one liners or simple "no's" to valid arguments.
Relating to Greninja, I'm saying that we BAN THE FROG.
It has no offensive switch ins. Now before all of you say that Stall counters it, you are only half right. Sure Greninja has a tough time with some stall, but Low Kick/Gunk Shot/Dark Pulse shatters a lot of the bulky pokemon seen on Stall Teams such as Chansey, Clefable, and now Cresselia.
Additionally, if you're arguing that you can run other things to stop greninja, it just proves that Greninja is overcentralizing, forcing you to run obscure checks such as Porygon-2 to barely check Greninja.
Now for offensive switch ins, Greninja has basically none. Everyone that states "OMG. my Lopunny can come in to revenge kill after" is failing to see that faster pokemon such as Mega Lopunny or Mega Manetric CAN NOT SWITCH IN.
This statement basically guarantees that Greninja will force a pokemon to switch or get a KO. How is that not broken at all? If you need to sack a pokemon to get rid of another, that is broken.
Also, don't expect Greninja to stay in on your Mega Lopunny! There are 5 other pokemon on a team with Greninja. Saying that Greninja is staying in on a High-Jump-Kick instead of switching to their defensive Landorus-T is not only foolish, but ignorant.
For my final argument, I am going to repeat a broken record.
GRENINJA DOES NOT HAVE 4MSS SYNDROME.
Everyone seems to forget that Greninja has 5 other teammates to fill in any weakness that Greninja or the team as a whole has.
Sure it can't run Gunk Shot/Low Kick/ HP Grass/ Grass Knot/Spikes/ Toxic Spikes/ HP Fire/ Extransensory/ Hydro Pump all in one moveslot.
However, with Ice Beam and Dark Pulse, it already covers almost half the meta and those two extra moves can be tailored to whatever its team is weak against.
Need to break stall? Run Low Kick for Chansey.
Need to rid the world of Azumarill? Run Gunk Shot.
Don't like Rotom-Wash because it didn't wash your clothes properly? Use HP Grass
Hate Ferrothorn? Use HP Fire
Can't stand Tentacruel? Bop it with an Extrasensory.
As you can see, Greninja doesn't need 20 slots to perform its job, it does just fine with 4.
Nothing switches in bar obscure pokes and some stall, and its versatility can adapt to your team based on its moves.
Once again, BAN Greninja.
It's been stated before, smogon doesn't do complex bans. Speed boost on Yanmega is not broken, but speed boost blaziken is because blaziken is just a better pokemon to abuse speed boost, therefore gets banned because of it. kecleon is a great user of protean, but not broken. This is the same thing, banning greninja because it is a better user of the ability rather than ban the ability on greninja just so I can use a shittier version of greninja is not a good solution.
Okay, I watched the video. I saw nothing that made me believe that Greninja deserved to remain in OU. In fact, the only thing that video added to this discussion was really http://i.imgur.com/LGNeGGf.png that image. Which proves my earlier post where I say that Greninja's varied moveset allow him to beat his usual checks.
Now at first when I saw this I yelled in my mind NO IT CAN'T BE BANNED IT'S NOT THAT GOOD COME ON! But I realize that I only thought that because one, Greninja is one of the best members of my team, and two, I didn't realize it got gunkshot and low kick. Now after reading some posts and really thinking I decided with a sad heart he should be banned. ): Things like azumarill which was a pretty big threat in OU (Not ban worthy but very good) were good counters for azumarill and they still were for me being so dumb and not realizing he got gunk shot in ORAS. With gunkshot azumarill is way less effective. Chansey is still pretty good but it's COMPLETELY stall based and for any offensive teams (mine included) chansey is a no. Plus low kick is decent for taking that out. Dragons get ice beamed, fire types get scalded/hydropumped, and there are others moves that he has that could use to destroy things. The only clear counters are priority and porygon 2. Priorty is good because of greninja frailness but two of the best priority moves are not very effective against it when it is water dark. Correct me if I'm wrong but bullet punch and ice shard are not very effective against it. While yes he changes type so you can get him when he is changed you still have to get that pokemon in while it has a changed type meaning sacking something to get a clean switch, or switching in and taking damages and possibly having it predict this and change types. Porygon I can't see too many flaws except low kick but porygon doesn't way too much so that won't do much. Well at least it was 1 or 2 counter unlike another pokemon banned before it (I'm looking at you mega salamence) Anyway the answer is sadly clear. Ban it. ):
Lets also not forget that it is completly ignoring Low Kick, which makes it look like Kyruem-B is always an answer
While it is true that Greninja can't beat everything all in one set, it pretty much has the power to choose what Pokemon it can and can't beat. Does your team not have any problems with Rotom-W? Great! You don't need HP Grass! Does your team struggle against Steel types like Ferrothorn and Scizor? No worry, you can run HP Fire to make up for that. Also I happen to recall both you and me using the Team Support argument in the Mega Salamence quickban thread against some guy, so how is it irrelevant now?
Uhhh no that's still a really poor argument. It doesn't if we're just suspecting Greninja here, the point still stands that it doesn't have 4MSS because its moveset can be easily tailored to fit your teams needs. The point that we're trying to get across is that Greninja doesn't need to handle everything on its own, seeing as how it already handles a huge portion of the meta with just 4 moves, and everything else is made up for with teammates. Who cares if Greninja can't handle the whole meta on its own? Nothing can. That's what teammates are for. Looking at Greninja all by itself without taking team support into consideration is one of the most illogical ways to look at a suspect. Yes there are some Pokemon that could easily take on the meta all by themselves without needing any sort of team support and were broken by themselves, see Mega Kanga and Mega Mence for example, but other Pokemon such as Tornadus-T from last gen, were only broken because of team support. Do you really think Tornadus-T would have been banned if Drizzle Politoed didn't exist? No of course not. But if we only looked at Tornadus-T by itself without including its favorite partner, it wouldn't have been nearly as bad as it was.
Part of what makes Greninja so broken is that what it can't handle by itself, something else on your team can easily handle it. For example if you're not running HP Fire to hit Ferrothorn, then you could just run Magnezone on your team to patch up that weakness, and the problem is solved. If you're not running Extrasensory, pairing Greninja with something like Latios, Mega Gard, or Goth can easily patch up your weakness to Keldeo, Tent, and Mega Venu.
All in all, I disagree that Greninja should be looked at as if it were Greninja vs the world. Factoring in the little team support Greninja needs in order to be so fucking amazing is part of the reason that it's so broken, and looking at a suspect by itself entirely is not how we should go about thinking about things when we're suspecting it.
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In this post, I want to list the counters that Greninja has because there is a lot of confusion and incompleteness in this discussion regarding that. Whenever I say 'standard' I mean Low Kick / Gunk Shot / Ice Beam / Dark Pulse.
Full Counters
Chansey
Porygon2
Full SDef Mega Sableye
RestTalk Gyarados
CM Manaphy
Klefki
SDef Cresselia
SDef Alomomola (can be a little shaky with hazards up + Grass Knot Greninja but otherwise it's fine)
Move-Specific Counters
Mega Sableye with just a bit of SDef + Calm (non-Hydro Pump)
Bulky Mega Scizor (can handle standard versions but doesn't really like tanking Hydro Pumps if non-SDef and loses to HP Fire)
Ferrothorn (non-HP Fire/Low Kick)
Defensive Mega Venusaur (non-Extrasensory)
Slowbro (non-Dark Pulse)
SDef Jirachi (non-Dark Pulse)
Suicune (non-Grass Knot)
Empoleon (non-Low Kick)
Tentacruel (non-Extrasensory)
Let's not act like Greninja has no counters, because that simply isn't the case, but this doesn't mean that Greninja is balanced. Almost all of the actual counters are passive, defensive Pokemon that don't fit onto balanced teams, while a lot of move-specific counters are like that too or don't provide the protection necessary to deal with Greninja in its entirety anyways, so you need to stack multiple of these Pokemon, many of which are passive as well, and make your team objectively worse to deal with Greninja. At least don't use faulty information in your arguments.
Full Counters
Chansey
Porygon2
Full SDef Mega Sableye
RestTalk Gyarados
CM Manaphy
Klefki
SDef Cresselia
SDef Alomomola (can be a little shaky with hazards up + Grass Knot Greninja but otherwise it's fine)
Move-Specific Counters
Mega Sableye with just a bit of SDef + Calm (non-Hydro Pump)
Bulky Mega Scizor (can handle standard versions but doesn't really like tanking Hydro Pumps if non-SDef and loses to HP Fire)
Ferrothorn (non-HP Fire/Low Kick)
Defensive Mega Venusaur (non-Extrasensory)
Slowbro (non-Dark Pulse)
SDef Jirachi (non-Dark Pulse)
Suicune (non-Grass Knot)
Empoleon (non-Low Kick)
Tentacruel (non-Extrasensory)
Let's not act like Greninja has no counters, because that simply isn't the case, but this doesn't mean that Greninja is balanced. Almost all of the actual counters are passive, defensive Pokemon that don't fit onto balanced teams, while a lot of move-specific counters are like that too or don't provide the protection necessary to deal with Greninja in its entirety anyways, so you need to stack multiple of these Pokemon, many of which are passive as well, and make your team objectively worse to deal with Greninja. At least don't use faulty information in your arguments.
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Dont ban Greninja.
For real, this thing is a threat, but is it really that difficult to stop? No. And for the people arguing that you have to teambuild against it you dont. In my opinion (that means my personal opinion and you can talk to me about it but dont try to change it) that is what teambuilding is, making a team that is a check/something that can beat other teams. So lets say your team sees Greninja as a threat, wouldnt a good teambuilder change their team to take it on? That isnt over centralizing the metagame, because it dosent take a team of 6 to beat Greninja. And another thing, if it didnt get Low Kick and Gunk Shot this suspect test probably wouldnt exist. TBH I was suprised it did when I found out.
Dont ban.
For real, this thing is a threat, but is it really that difficult to stop? No. And for the people arguing that you have to teambuild against it you dont. In my opinion (that means my personal opinion and you can talk to me about it but dont try to change it) that is what teambuilding is, making a team that is a check/something that can beat other teams. So lets say your team sees Greninja as a threat, wouldnt a good teambuilder change their team to take it on? That isnt over centralizing the metagame, because it dosent take a team of 6 to beat Greninja. And another thing, if it didnt get Low Kick and Gunk Shot this suspect test probably wouldnt exist. TBH I was suprised it did when I found out.
Dont ban.
The post above you literally says that most of its counters depend on the set it is using or that they simply just don't fit on balanced teams, so how is a balance user going to do this without changing their playstyle or hoping that Greninja doesn't have the right coverage move
I forgot that it's Greninja vs 6 in standard OU matches. I never realized that the 5 other Pokemon in the back were completely irrelevant. I also appreciate the class in teambuilding you just presented to myself and others with this wild assumption that we don't take this into account when teambuilding already or at least try to.
What does this line even mean (._.)?!?
You would obviously have to teambuild and take into account the relevant threats in the tier regardless. Greninja's issue is ruining the effectiveness of Balanced builds by mitigating these teams to be either super fast or extremely passive. There's no realistic balance if you're just using two opposites of playstyles with no in between because Greninja's presence is unhealthy enough where it makes these balanced builds a liability.
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
Tentacruel is actually really good in this meta tspikes rek greninja as well as stuff like keldeo, so don't say that things like p2 chansey and mola are "unviable" in this meta
tbh none of the 'counters' really fit on offense per se (aside from maybe klefki, manaphy and gyarados), so you have to rely on offensive pressure to check it. heck, even klefki gets bopped by hpump, while greninja can just switch out to thundurus or something to block twave.
i've been messing around with the ladder atm, metagross seems like a rising threat without greninja. it was already good before, but greninja could check it with dark pulse while metagross's bullet punch is resisted (so greninja can still take a hit). i'm not sure how i like this considering it seems a bit harder to play around, but greninja himself is pretty cancer and i guess we'll get to metagrossite when it's really stupid enough (and i stop playing at 2am so that i wont choke like every 3 games)
leaning towards ban on greninja though, reasons are mostly because he kinds of fucks over offensive teams and running the 'counters' are pretty much just non-conducive for offense tbh. while i never really found an issue with greninja since i usually play stall, greninja is still pretty ridiculous since running the wrong counter to the wrong greninja often means you get screwed over (chansey can only take so much a beating). i mean, i could run tentacruel to deal with greninja, but getting screwed over by extrasensory is stupid, especially when its actually really viable as hell.
the problem is not the 4mss, it's what the fuck you're supposed to do when you see a greninja. greninja could very well be running a move that fucks you over, no matter what you pack. shit like esense, hpfire, grass knot and hp fire/electric are all pretty cool options, and you never really know what greninja is running tbh beyond ice beam (and maybe gunk shot or dark pulse). you can pack a 'counter' to greninja for all you like, chances are it will get screwed by another greninja variant.
this is a bit similar to mega lucario, who basically fucks over counters if they go into the wrong set, but the counters here aren't that far apart this time, and some do actually overlap between sets so its not as bad. the difference is however the coverage that pretty much stretches ad infinitum and the speed tier that literally shits over every single non-scarfed/mega pokemon in the tier. 122 is fucking godly, discounting megas, there are only 10 pokemon that outrun greninja, and all of them either suck (pretty much all of them except maybe NOIVERN) or are just badly outclassed (see NOIVERN), the only exception being TF who obviously can't switch in and doesnt really care about speed in the first place due to gale wings (outside of dodging water shuriken)
greninja isn't unbeatable, yes, but it's an issue when you are going to end up crippling half your team just to beat it tbh.
i've been messing around with the ladder atm, metagross seems like a rising threat without greninja. it was already good before, but greninja could check it with dark pulse while metagross's bullet punch is resisted (so greninja can still take a hit). i'm not sure how i like this considering it seems a bit harder to play around, but greninja himself is pretty cancer and i guess we'll get to metagrossite when it's really stupid enough (and i stop playing at 2am so that i wont choke like every 3 games)
leaning towards ban on greninja though, reasons are mostly because he kinds of fucks over offensive teams and running the 'counters' are pretty much just non-conducive for offense tbh. while i never really found an issue with greninja since i usually play stall, greninja is still pretty ridiculous since running the wrong counter to the wrong greninja often means you get screwed over (chansey can only take so much a beating). i mean, i could run tentacruel to deal with greninja, but getting screwed over by extrasensory is stupid, especially when its actually really viable as hell.
the problem is not the 4mss, it's what the fuck you're supposed to do when you see a greninja. greninja could very well be running a move that fucks you over, no matter what you pack. shit like esense, hpfire, grass knot and hp fire/electric are all pretty cool options, and you never really know what greninja is running tbh beyond ice beam (and maybe gunk shot or dark pulse). you can pack a 'counter' to greninja for all you like, chances are it will get screwed by another greninja variant.
this is a bit similar to mega lucario, who basically fucks over counters if they go into the wrong set, but the counters here aren't that far apart this time, and some do actually overlap between sets so its not as bad. the difference is however the coverage that pretty much stretches ad infinitum and the speed tier that literally shits over every single non-scarfed/mega pokemon in the tier. 122 is fucking godly, discounting megas, there are only 10 pokemon that outrun greninja, and all of them either suck (pretty much all of them except maybe NOIVERN) or are just badly outclassed (see NOIVERN), the only exception being TF who obviously can't switch in and doesnt really care about speed in the first place due to gale wings (outside of dodging water shuriken)
greninja isn't unbeatable, yes, but it's an issue when you are going to end up crippling half your team just to beat it tbh.
It's not a matter of Tentacruel being bad. It's just that, in many cases, Tentacruel is run solely to check Greninja.
Basically what I'm trying to say is that is that if there was no Greninja, barely anybody would use Tentacruel in OU. Nor Porygon2.
I have never found Greninja as a big problem when I find it rival teams. In my opinion, Mega-Metagross is closer to Uber than Greninja, because of its bulk. Greninja because of its poor defense is more like a "die early as late as possible" Pokémon, and its speed can be countered easily with ExtremeSpeed or other priority moves. I don't really understand the reason on why it should be banned. In conclusion: No ban.
Essays are for weenies.
Greninja should be banned cuz:
Greninja should be banned cuz:
- There's no way to build a team that isn't weak to Greninja, without using really passive and exploitable Pokemon like Chansey and Alomomola; or lots of scarfers, priority users, and fastmons like Talonflame, Mega Man and Mega Lopunny. If you'll notice, these two options basically exclude any team that isn't full stall or HO.
- A lot of the bulky stuff that could take a hit and OHKO back, i.e. stuff balance and bulky offense would use, only need a small bit of prior damage to just be KOed.
- 4MSS isn't really an issue cause it covers 95% of the meta with three slots and then picks what its checks are in the last slot, and you do this based on the rest of the team. Like if you're a bit Keldeo weak just run Extrasensory. Stuff like that.
- Ability to outspeed and OHKO most of the meta offsets the bulk issue, except where it has to switch in but the teams Greninja is seen on don't have a problem sacing stuff and you can just double switch anyway.
Tentacruel has actually found a relevant niche as the ideal Mega Sabeye team spinner and Spd Tentacruel does quite well on stall. And sure, you may even feel ballsy enough to use it as your Greninja check. However extrasensory is still a viable option on Greninja and it can often even work as a lure to snipe your spinner, crippling you severely over the match so Tentacruel is a check to non-extrasensory types at best.
Greninja has counters there's no denying that..
- Shulk
- Ike
- Ne- oh wait wrong game..
There are no hard counters for this thing. Greninja have a coverage move option for every threat to it out there. In balanced and HO it's pretty much just uncounterable. In stall not much can wall him.. I know we're not apost to factor RNG as an argument... but we're forgetting a lot of his moves have some uncompetitive RNG abuse to them; scald burns, flinch haxes, poison hax, freeze hax, etc etc.. now ok what the hell does that mean for greninja in particular?
Those are mostly hard checks at best, as greninja still threatens them some how or another, they're not pokemon that'll stay in and atempt to tackle greninja on their own as to blunty to it, their offenses suck. Some can t-wave but that's pretty much just sapping a mon to cripple greninja.
- Shulk
- Ike
- Ne- oh wait wrong game..
There are no hard counters for this thing. Greninja have a coverage move option for every threat to it out there. In balanced and HO it's pretty much just uncounterable. In stall not much can wall him.. I know we're not apost to factor RNG as an argument... but we're forgetting a lot of his moves have some uncompetitive RNG abuse to them; scald burns, flinch haxes, poison hax, freeze hax, etc etc.. now ok what the hell does that mean for greninja in particular?
Well here's the thing.. if those are full counters to greninja, then they should be able to switch in and threaten greninja no? As you said they're generally passive.. but gyarados cannot take scald burns (rest talk? is that just for greninja? #Overcentralization), cresselia can't take flinch haxes, sableye can't take scald burns or flinch haxes, P2 doesn't like gunk shot poison along with low kick, CM manaphy is pretty meh.. grass knot is a thing. Alomomola I personally haven't seen put in any work myself and only recently heard it's viable, I'll skip that. Klefki is just, yeah same boat as sableye except no setup moves or recovery. Are those counters to the standard set you posted? Perhaps. However the main problem is there isn't a "standard set" greninja runs as he can pretty much slap any move depending on the team. Naturally when a pokemon starts seeing counters they begin to switch up their sets for lure sets. (Think LO max speed head smash slash for mandibuzz and bisharp)
Those are mostly hard checks at best, as greninja still threatens them some how or another, they're not pokemon that'll stay in and atempt to tackle greninja on their own as to blunty to it, their offenses suck. Some can t-wave but that's pretty much just sapping a mon to cripple greninja.
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You bring up two anti-ban arguments, one of which being "die early as late as possible" and being manageable with priority. I'm not sure what the former argument even means, but both arguments are essentially the same since they downplay Greninja's effectiveness because its frail.
Yes, its frail. The problem, if you read any pro-ban posts in this thread, is that it is difficult to find an opportunity to bring in something that can outspeed and KO Greninja. Do you think Banded Dragonite wants to switch in on a Gunk Shot or Ice Beam? How about Bisharp and Breloom, do you think they can just freely switch in on Greninja and KO? Greninja exerts huge offensive pressure, causing opponents to make risky plays and sacrifices with little reward. In most cases, something dies and Talonflame/Dragonite/Scarf Lando comes in just to ward off Greninja until its next assault. You could argue that the Greninja user has to take the same risks to effectively use Greninja, but you have nothing to lose by bring in Greninja after something faints. You have everything to lose when you try and bring your Banded Talonflame to revenge kill Greninja, only to find yourself guessing because the Greninja user has a Tyranitar with Pursuit.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Grass Knot (20 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 73-88 (18 - 21.7%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
Grass Knot does laughable damage to Manaphy and it a solid full counter to all with 16 S.Def invested instead of speed. It can never kill even with 2 max roll HP Grass with that spread outside of a lucky crit.
Also sighting hax and moves with questionable accuracy as means of discounting viable checks is silly.
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