Ladder STABmons (the old one)

[Ghoul King]

You know, we could run a proper Suspect Test where there's a version of STABmons available that doesn't allow Diggersby. Instead of just assuming the meta will come apart at the seams and refusing to even try.

All I can really do is repeat what I've already said before: nobody looks for answers to those threats because they already have Diggersby, so the fact that no alternate answers are known isn't remotely compelling proof that there aren't any.

Also

My biggest fear in the post diggersby ban is not a ban on certain sweepers, but a ban on a type or moves because of the number of mons that can easily sweep at a moments notice. Without diggersby as an easy check to those mons, they run rampant.

my own argument is that Diggersby is one of those horror sweepers. (In addition to the best FakeSpeeder)

Mega Garchomp, Salamence, pretty much all dragons actually

there is this move called Ice Shard you may have heard of

it is now available to every Ice type ever, including Kyurem-Black

Togekiss, Gardevoir

In addition to Bullet Punch (And Ice Shard for Togekiss) there's the fact that Gardevoir has such crap Physical durability that, well

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gardevoir: 73-87 (21.4 - 25.5%) -- 0.4% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gardevoir: 144-171 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Yeah here's a completely unrealistic Gardevoir investment, and FakeSpeed off Stoutland is still doing hilarious damage to it. With a more realistic set we get

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 109-130 (32 - 38.2%) -- 96.6% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 219-258 (64.4 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Which will almost always be a clean 2HKO. And Gardevoir is dependent on a Power herb for its particular brand of abuse, so it can't be a Mega Gardevoir and really just sucks in general.

Togekiss is less bad off, having some actual Defense, but is still pained horribly by the whole thing, resulting in

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 81-96 (21.7 - 25.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 160-189 (42.8 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Note that I'm using Stoutland half because you named it and half because it's kind of mediocre as a FakeSpeeder. (Has Scrappy though)

On top of that, Aegislash is legal in STABmons, so that's another effortless counter to both of them.

252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 228-270 (67 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 338-402 (99.4 - 118.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+2 232 SpA Gardevoir Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 236-278 (72.8 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So basically switch in while they Geomancy, then Shift Gear while tanking the hit, and then Shadow Sneak or Bullet Punch for a more than 90% chance of a OHKO. This being with Leftovers mind, rather than Weakness Policy or Life Orb or whatever. Or don't Shift Gear and just Iron Head for a clean OHKO, every time. If they switch instead, there goes their Power Herb, and the entire threat is neutered.

Yanmega

I realize it gets Tail Glow, Quiver Dance, and Tinted Lens, but it's still actually a manageable threat, even aside from the fact that literally any set-up sweeper is messed up by Sableye, which several people have insisted contributes to making Diggersby "fair". Again, there's still Ice Shard, not to mention Stealth Rock being horrible for Yanmega. It's also the only Pokemon with that level of set-up plus Tinted Lens and actually good stats -if it even turned out to be overly strong (Which I am unconvinced of, for many reasons) it wouldn't be a chain of banning all the other Tinted Lens Bugs or anything.

Azumarill

Belly Drum Azumarill is already a thing, and answerable, in Standard OU. Whoopee, it gets Shell Smash and Extreme Speed now. So it's Diggersby, but without STAB and without good Ground coverage and with lower Attack? Why, exactly, are you trying to argue Azumarill will be broken while arguing Diggersby shouldn't be banned?

Meloetta

Fast strong Boomburst+Shell Smash+Extreme Speed I guess and absolutely no answer to Sableye and limited ability to deal with Ghosts generally. It's not like it gets Secret Sword from Pirouette or anything, and Relic Song is not worth running to access Pirouette regardless. What exactly will make it an unholy, unstoppable terror if Diggersby isn't around to be the worse unholy, unstoppable terror? 'cause what I'm getting out of this is "bad Special Diggersby without good anti-Steel coverage". (If it runs Focus Blast, it's either not got Psychic STAB and is hard-walled by Ghosts or gave up Extreme Speed [why would Meloetta run that, actually?] and is still hard-walled by Sableye -or Spiritomb if I want to be obnoxious)

Gyarados

I don't have a clear argument against this, but I'm also not really following why you think it will be an unholy terror anyway. I use it. It struggles against plenty of things that aren't Diggersby, even with it having gained Crunch and Dragon Ascent.

How the hell does stall stop Cincinno?

how the hell does stall stop Diggersby and what makes Cincinno any worse

 

[DinaIsha]

You mentioned it yourself. Other FakeSpeeders are sub par. Ursaring hits harder than Digger, but if it gets to Fake out on a Rocky Helmet Iron Barbs Ferrothorn, its all but dead.

This is kind of boring. One group will not agree with the arguments of another. I invite more people to join.

The argument as it stands:

Pro Banners: FakeSpeeding is fine. But Diggersby does much more than that, including breaking the most reliable of walls.

Anti Banners: Diggersby can be checked. It also suffers from 4MSS. Importantly, it's the best FakeSpeeder available. Its replacements are either too weak or Ursaring, which doesn't have longevity.

And please don't post a wall of text and calculations (Like the Gardevoir one. We all know it is frail. No need to calc it.) Diggersby is strong, gets wonderful coverage. Just mention whether Diggersby fits into the meta anymore.

 

[ellipse]

Sorry about those essays DinaIsha. Honestly though, the last few posts are right. Everything relevant that can be said on the topic has been, and the only thing left to do is either decision or a legitimate suspect.

 

[Kit Kasai]

I don't have a very strong stance for either side as I don't play STABmons often, but one thing I'm noticing a lot in the anti-ban side arguments is that they are focusing on how the meta would be changed if Diggersby was no longer legal. Generally, this type of reasoning is discouraged, as it does not reflect whether or not the current mon being suspected is actually OP in the current meta. We're not looking at whether the meta would be better off or worse off without Diggersby, we're looking at whether or not Diggersby is broken in the current meta. It's kind of like what was going on in the Aegislash suspect in OU. A lot of people were against the removal of Aegislash because of how much of a defensive glue it was against many powerful offensive threats (like Gardevoir and Medicham to name a few examples), but that doesn't change the issue of whether or not it was broken. We should focus more on the point of whether or not Diggersby is unhealthy for the meta rather than speculate about what the meta would be like without Diggersby.

 

[EV]

We're not looking at whether the meta would be better off or worse off without Diggersby, we're looking at whether or not Diggersby is broken in the current meta.

This is probably my last post before I decide on the suspect. As I noted earlier, I'm trying to take a liberal approach to bans now in favor of a better metagame rather than giving the suspect the benefit of the doubt. It's kind of a "the needs of many versus the needs of one" argument. Anyway, I'll ask you this:

Will the metagame be better off without Diggersby in it?

I leave it to you to define "better off."

Actually I am asking that. I'm putting the benefit of the doubt on the entire metagame instead on just Diggersby.

 

[Ghoul King]

You mentioned it yourself. Other FakeSpeeders are sub par. Ursaring hits harder than Digger, but if it gets to Fake out on a Rocky Helmet Iron Barbs Ferrothorn, its all but dead.

This is kind of boring. One group will not agree with the arguments of another. I invite more people to join.

The argument as it stands:

Pro Banners: FakeSpeeding is fine. But Diggersby does much more than that, including breaking the most reliable of walls.

Anti Banners: Diggersby can be checked. It also suffers from 4MSS. Importantly, it's the best FakeSpeeder available. Its replacements are either too weak or Ursaring, which doesn't have longevity.

OK, let me summarize things differently

Pro banners: Calculations, examples, evidence of Diggersby being broken and evidence that the meta won't suffer because Diggersby is gone. While I'm at it, let me note that I've never used Diggersby and have not had a consistent, recurring problem of being unable to handle set-up sweepers -except for Diggersby itself, which has in fact been the only Pokemon I consistently struggle to find answers to in the entire meta.

Anti banners: Arguing that Diggersby is necessary and the meta will break without it, nearly zero evidence to support these statements, most of the evidence has been firmly rebuffed and no attempt has been made to rebuff the rebuffing.

My interpretation of events is that A: the anti banners are ignoring the points the pro banners make and B: insisting that their point ("Diggersby is a necessary evil") is true while making no effort to prove that it is true and ignoring evidence that it is false.

Indeed, the anti banners have shifted the goal posts repeatedly throughout the argument, starting from the statement "Nu uh it isn't broken" and then moving from there to "But the meta would break without its brokenness keeping everything in check!" which makes it extremely hard for me to take seriously any of the arguments provided for why we shouldn't ban it if the methodology for protecting Diggersby is to simply pretend the anti-ban arguments aren't failing and shift the goal-posts.

And please don't post a wall of text and calculations (Like the Gardevoir one. We all know it is frail. No need to calc it.) Diggersby is strong, gets wonderful coverage. Just mention whether Diggersby fits into the meta anymore.

OK, then the anti-banners shouldn't try to argue Gardevoir will break the meta if Gardevoir is so obviously frail.

Seriously, it got listed as an example of something that will "overrun the meta". You think I shouldn't have pointed out how easily destroyed this set-up sweeper is, and just have let Jownage's statement stand uncontested? I'm not liking how the anti-banners keep falling back on trying to get the pro-banners to not say or respond to things, instead of trying to show how their position is correct. That is highly inappropriate, and smacks of trying to get the argument to stop so that Diggersby won't be banned by default.

 

[Kit Kasai]

Disclaimer: I do not have very much experience in the current STABmons meta, this is all from my observations. I would highly appreciate it if someone with more experience can refute or corroborate what I am saying with more evidence :)

The way I see it, the primary issue at hand is "Would the meta be better off with or without Diggersby?" One of the main issues brought up is that without Diggersby, there will no longer be anything to stop setup sweepers from taking over the meta. As shown in a few posts before, there still exist reliable revenge killers, albeit not as strong as Diggersby. These pokemon should definitely be able to keep setup sweepers at bay, especially considering that fake-speed revenge killing isn't the only way to deal with these pokemon. You can still deal with setup sweepers without resorting to stall by using offensive checks like Aegislash, Rotom (forms), or Scizor (mega). That being said, I think it's fairly safe to assume that the meta will survive without Diggersby. Going any further is wandering into a dangerous area of speculation, which is not very sound to base an argument upon because it is impossible to predict how the meta will develop. There are sufficient, viable resources for the meta to adapt to a change like this.

That being said, this brings us to the secondary point of discussion: Whether or not Diggersby is broken. There are two main points to this issue. The first is that through its sheer amount of power it can force its way through potential checks and counters. I won't be addressing this issue in this post because I can't make calcs right now. The second point is that because of the new moves Diggersby obtained through ORAS, it can run coverage to lure and destroy its regular counters, such as Ice Punch for Landorus-T and Knock Off for ghost types. This is extremely similar to the current Greninja suspect going on in OU. One of the arguments against ban for both is that they have 4mss, meaning that they cannot deal with all their checks/counters and maintain the same level of effectiveness at the same time. The problem is, when you're playing against it, you have to assume that it has all possible moves and scout it. The problem with this is that if you scout it, you risk losing valuable momentum and you have to sustain damage. If you don't scout it, you risk losing your counter to a lure set. Having to run multiple counters may work stop it, but it just shows how centralizing and unhealthy it is for the metagame.

 

[w0rd]

I don't really care whether Diggersby gets banned or not, but where is everyone getting this idea that Diggersby is centralising from?

Any decent STABmons team should have at least 1 or 2 checks to Normal type physical attackers whether Diggersby is in the metagame or not. Any decent STABmons team should not be stacked with exploitable x4 weaknesses whether Diggersby is in the metagame or not. Any decent STABmons team should have a way of dealing with set-up sweepers in case of emergency (or at least be able to apply enough pressure to stop that from ever happening) whether Diggersby is in the metagame or not.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I've rarely seen the need to prepare specifically for Diggersby when teambuilding (aside from making sure my teams are not super frail and vulnerable to ExtremeSpeed - something which should be done anyway).

Pokemon like Greninja, Keldeo, Thundurus, Scizor, Aegislash and Talonflame are all a lot more centralising (and usually require specialised counters/movesets or entire teamslots dedicated to stopping them alone)

 

[Ghoul King]

I have never struggled with any of the Pokemon you just named, except occasionally making a team overly vulnerable to Talonflame. (A mistake I routinely overlook in assorted metas until I actually run into Talonflame) I have consistently struggled with Diggersby from day 1, and it gaining Knock Off -among other things- just makes it that much harder.

And in what way do you check Normal type Physical attackers and thus check Diggersby? It gets STAB Earthquake and now Knock Off -if you resist Normal type moves you're either vulnerable to Ground or are Skarmory, Archeops, Aerodactyl, Lunatone, Solrock, or Bronzong. (Skarmory being the only one that can bulk through a Knock Off just fine, by the way) If you're immune to Normal, then either you're Sableye, the useless Spiritomb, or vulnerable to Knock Off.

Put another way, Skarmory and Sableye are it for actually walling Diggersby, and they're both imperfect at the job.

Again: in what way does walling Normal type Pokemon in a general sense in any way mean you have stopped Diggersby?

 

[w0rd]

The thing is you don't necessarily have to "wall" Diggersby to beat it.

Going back to those pokemon I mentioned:

• Greninja is not "walled" by anything. Chansey and Porygon2 (and maybe Lickilicky) are it for actually walling Greninja, and they're both imperfect at the job (especially with Knock Off + Dark Void in its movepool)
• Keldeo is actually walled by quite a few things, but most don't really have well defined niches outside of beating Keldeo (Slowking, Jellicent, Amoonguss, Celebi)
• Things that "wall" Thundurus are pretty much limited to Rotom-H and Raikou, and even those can lose to certain sets.
• Things that wall Aegislash are Mandibuzz(?) and that can lose to SubToxic or Head Smash sets
• Talonflame is walled by Tyranitar and Heatran - and they have x4 weaknesses which can be exploited by Judgment.
• Mega Pidgeot and Deoxys-Speed (and probably a few others) have similarly small lists of things that can wall them.

So while Diggersby may or may not broken, the argument that is difficult to wall (assuming it is running every possible coverage move at once) isn't really the strongest one.

 

[Ghoul King]

Diggersby is impossible to wall on three moves. And then it can have Shell Smash.

Why do people keep acting like Diggersby needs to run more than four moves to have perfect coverage? It needs 3, all of which it gets.

Furthermore, Talonflame is the closest, out of all those you listed, in terms of being able to output enormous damage with priority backing it -and Talonflame doesn't get STAB on Extreme Speed while Gale Wings puts it at +1, not +2.

If you can't switch in on and survive and then attack back (Or otherwise act) having taken another hit (Or gone before your attacker, which is impossible in the face of Extreme Speed without being Ghost, Rock, or Steel), you are not a real counter or check. And Skarmory and Sableye are it for fulfilling that definition, before Diggersby Shell Smashes.

 

[w0rd]

If you can't switch in on and survive and then attack back (Or otherwise act) having taken another hit (Or gone before your attacker, which is impossible in the face of Extreme Speed without being Ghost, Rock, or Steel), you are not a real counter or check. And Skarmory and Sableye are it for fulfilling that definition, before Diggersby Shell Smashes.

Tangrowth, Tangela, Cresselia, Porygon2, Slowbro, Alomomola, Mega Venusaur, Avalugg, Chesnaught, Mega Audino, Mega Latias, Cofagrigus (and probably more) can do that too. And they are mostly viable (and good) pokemon.

One issue I have with Diggersby is that both of its STAB attacks are good but not really that good. Diggersby is, in theory, impossible to wall but in practice that is really only the case if you have godlike predictions.

For example, Knock Off can beat Gengar but only if you hit in on the switch.
If your opponent has a Thundurus in - do you ExtremeSpeed to kill it before it can sweep your team, but risk the free Gengar switch?
Or do you Knock Off predicting the Gengar switch, but risk losing your Diggersby to to the Thundurus?
Or do you switch to your Terrakion, knowing that they probably won't Earthquake on a Thundurus, and get a justified boost?

Obviously, this is an exaggerated example and most teams won't have these 3 specific pokemon, but these kind of situations are extremely common in STABmons.

Some might see these kind of 50/50s as unhealthy for the metagame. Others might see these risks associated with Diggersby as a flaw (both of its STABs have pokemon immune to them)

 

[DinaIsha]

As I've already mentioned, calculations mean nothing. Walls of text mean nothing if you're really reshaping your words again and again.

It's been said that Diggersby is quite wallable. But Pro banners seems to assume perfectly adaptable move set + setup + impeccable prediction in their arguments, then go on to calculate how it breaks certain walls.

Let the pro-banners give one move set of Diggersby that breaks all the walls and then we can have a feasible talk instead of acting wise and calcing stuff.

 

[canno]

Don't forget about Landorus-Therian, who can switch into Diggersby with ease. It is also generally a really good mon (I'm starting to like it more than Lando-I...jk Lando-I is still my love <3). Intimidate is just 2gud.

 

[xJownage]

You know, we could run a proper Suspect Test where there's a version of STABmons available that doesn't allow Diggersby. Instead of just assuming the meta will come apart at the seams and refusing to even try.

All I can really do is repeat what I've already said before: nobody looks for answers to those threats because they already have Diggersby, so the fact that no alternate answers are known isn't remotely compelling proof that there aren't any.

Also



my own argument is that Diggersby is one of those horror sweepers. (In addition to the best FakeSpeeder)



there is this move called Ice Shard you may have heard of

it is now available to every Ice type ever, including Kyurem-Black



In addition to Bullet Punch (And Ice Shard for Togekiss) there's the fact that Gardevoir has such crap Physical durability that, well

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gardevoir: 73-87 (21.4 - 25.5%) -- 0.4% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gardevoir: 144-171 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Yeah here's a completely unrealistic Gardevoir investment, and FakeSpeed off Stoutland is still doing hilarious damage to it. With a more realistic set we get

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 109-130 (32 - 38.2%) -- 96.6% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 219-258 (64.4 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Which will almost always be a clean 2HKO. And Gardevoir is dependent on a Power herb for its particular brand of abuse, so it can't be a Mega Gardevoir and really just sucks in general.

Togekiss is less bad off, having some actual Defense, but is still pained horribly by the whole thing, resulting in

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Fake Out vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 81-96 (21.7 - 25.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Stoutland Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 160-189 (42.8 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Note that I'm using Stoutland half because you named it and half because it's kind of mediocre as a FakeSpeeder. (Has Scrappy though)

On top of that, Aegislash is legal in STABmons, so that's another effortless counter to both of them.

252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 228-270 (67 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 338-402 (99.4 - 118.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+2 232 SpA Gardevoir Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 236-278 (72.8 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So basically switch in while they Geomancy, then Shift Gear while tanking the hit, and then Shadow Sneak or Bullet Punch for a more than 90% chance of a OHKO. This being with Leftovers mind, rather than Weakness Policy or Life Orb or whatever. Or don't Shift Gear and just Iron Head for a clean OHKO, every time. If they switch instead, there goes their Power Herb, and the entire threat is neutered.



I realize it gets Tail Glow, Quiver Dance, and Tinted Lens, but it's still actually a manageable threat, even aside from the fact that literally any set-up sweeper is messed up by Sableye, which several people have insisted contributes to making Diggersby "fair". Again, there's still Ice Shard, not to mention Stealth Rock being horrible for Yanmega. It's also the only Pokemon with that level of set-up plus Tinted Lens and actually good stats -if it even turned out to be overly strong (Which I am unconvinced of, for many reasons) it wouldn't be a chain of banning all the other Tinted Lens Bugs or anything.



Belly Drum Azumarill is already a thing, and answerable, in Standard OU. Whoopee, it gets Shell Smash and Extreme Speed now. So it's Diggersby, but without STAB and without good Ground coverage and with lower Attack? Why, exactly, are you trying to argue Azumarill will be broken while arguing Diggersby shouldn't be banned?



Fast strong Boomburst+Shell Smash+Extreme Speed I guess and absolutely no answer to Sableye and limited ability to deal with Ghosts generally. It's not like it gets Secret Sword from Pirouette or anything, and Relic Song is not worth running to access Pirouette regardless. What exactly will make it an unholy, unstoppable terror if Diggersby isn't around to be the worse unholy, unstoppable terror? 'cause what I'm getting out of this is "bad Special Diggersby without good anti-Steel coverage". (If it runs Focus Blast, it's either not got Psychic STAB and is hard-walled by Ghosts or gave up Extreme Speed [why would Meloetta run that, actually?] and is still hard-walled by Sableye -or Spiritomb if I want to be obnoxious)



I don't have a clear argument against this, but I'm also not really following why you think it will be an unholy terror anyway. I use it. It struggles against plenty of things that aren't Diggersby, even with it having gained Crunch and Dragon Ascent.



how the hell does stall stop Diggersby and what makes Cincinno any worse

You give about 3 counters for those mons universally, so you are saying that every team needs those mons? All of them? I am saying that you don't have to run 3 mons for checking sweepers just to have a team that is not matchup reliant in the diggersby meta.

I don't think you understand: The reason stall itself is usable atm is because diggersby stops all of those sweepers. If every team had to run multiple mons for that...it would be awful. Setup diggersby is also pretty predictable, we have established that stall can stop it with unaware and the reason other mons that would break stall aren't being used is the omnipresence of diggersby. Without it, we have to run multiple mons just to check all of the sweepers in the meta.

This is removing the tier catch all, and requiring multiple mons to counter the sweepers in the tier is the mere definition of overcentralization to SETUP.

 

[Ghoul King]

You give about 3 counters for those mons universally, so you are saying that every team needs those mons? All of them? I am saying that you don't have to run 3 mons for checking sweepers just to have a team that is not matchup reliant in the diggersby meta.

This is a misrepresentation of what I said -they were three counters I could name off the top of my head.

As I've already mentioned, calculations mean nothing. Walls of text mean nothing if you're really reshaping your words again and again.

It's been said that Diggersby is quite wallable. But Pro banners seems to assume perfectly adaptable move set + setup + impeccable prediction in their arguments, then go on to calculate how it breaks certain walls.

Let the pro-banners give one move set of Diggersby that breaks all the walls and then we can have a feasible talk instead of acting wise and calcing stuff.

OK

OK

OK

Extreme Speed/Earthquake/Knock Off/Shell Smash

Then you can go on and make a post ignoring that I just said that, just like I've laid out that exact set repeatedly and you've ignored it.

And then you can act like you're smarter than me when you're just ignoring everything I say and going "wordwordswords it doesn't mean anything"

And then I can quote this post word for word

And we can go around in circles all day, with you insisting that's all on me

And that thus you're winning the argument by not arguing anything, which I've already pointed out you're doing and that it doesn't work

And this is the song that never ends, it goes on and on my friends...

Tangrowth, Tangela, Cresselia, Porygon2, Slowbro, Alomomola, Mega Venusaur, Avalugg, Chesnaught, Mega Audino, Mega Latias, Cofagrigus (and probably more) can do that too. And they are mostly viable (and good) pokemon.

I'm trying to imagine how many of those constitute a counter or check to Diggersby at +2, which is part of what I'm arguing. Some examples include

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Cofagrigus: 394-464 (123.5 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 265-313 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Note that I'm calculating with no item -with a Life Orb it can be a OHKO, or Diggersby could be Sashed to force through the first attack, or I could imagine this is Precipice Blades and it is a OHKO again)

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 104 HP / 248+ Def Alomomola: 352-415 (70.8 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Seriously, can everybody stop acting like FakeSpeed Diggersby is the only thing ever, and therefore the only thing they need to argue isn't broken?

I don't even think FakeSpeed Diggersby is broken, and in fact am somewhat mystified as to why it is so intensely popular.

But pretending that FakeSpeed is its only viable set makes no sense, and arguing against a ban for the Pokemon based on one set that I personally am not even talking about is nonsense.

Don't forget about Landorus-Therian, who can switch into Diggersby with ease. It is also generally a really good mon (I'm starting to like it more than Lando-I...jk Lando-I is still my love <3). Intimidate is just 2gud.

+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 195-231 (51 - 60.4%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Um. If you say so? (Note that I grabbed a standard Landorus-Therian OU set -I didn't pick this one for any reason other than that it was what Calc gave)

I don't think you understand: The reason stall itself is usable atm is because diggersby stops all of those sweepers. If every team had to run multiple mons for that...it would be awful. Setup diggersby is also pretty predictable, we have established that stall can stop it with unaware and the reason other mons that would break stall aren't being used is the omnipresence of diggersby. Without it, we have to run multiple mons just to check all of the sweepers in the meta.

This is removing the tier catch all, and requiring multiple mons to counter the sweepers in the tier is the mere definition of overcentralization to SETUP.

If your argument hinges on FakeSpeed, then Diggersby is unnecessary.

Meanwhile Diggersby itself requires 2+ checks or counters and good prediction to counter Diggersby.

So what I'm hearing is

"Let's keep this epic overcentralization that is worse than this other overcentralization that won't actually happen under my own logic for why Diggersby is important"

For example, Knock Off can beat Gengar but only if you hit in on the switch.

Again: stop assuming I'm talking about FakeSpeed Diggersby. If you're switching in Gengar while they Shell Smash, you're screwed. FakeSpeed Diggersby struggles with Gengar, and it's not the only set that exists or matters.

(Also: due to Christmas, this is probably my last post for a day or so. Merry Christmas!

Or unhappy Christmas, whatever floats your boat)

 

[Kit Kasai]

This is a misrepresentation of what I said -they were three counters I could name off the top of my head.



OK

OK

OK

Extreme Speed/Earthquake/Knock Off/Shell Smash

Then you can go on and make a post ignoring that I just said that, just like I've laid out that exact set repeatedly and you've ignored it.

And then you can act like you're smarter than me when you're just ignoring everything I say and going "wordwordswords it doesn't mean anything"

And then I can quote this post word for word

And we can go around in circles all day, with you insisting that's all on me

And that thus you're winning the argument by not arguing anything, which I've already pointed out you're doing and that it doesn't work

And this is the song that never ends, it goes on and on my friends...



I'm trying to imagine how many of those constitute a counter or check to Diggersby at +2, which is part of what I'm arguing. Some examples include

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Cofagrigus: 394-464 (123.5 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 265-313 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Note that I'm calculating with no item -with a Life Orb it can be a OHKO, or Diggersby could be Sashed to force through the first attack, or I could imagine this is Precipice Blades and it is a OHKO again)

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 104 HP / 248+ Def Alomomola: 352-415 (70.8 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Seriously, can everybody stop acting like FakeSpeed Diggersby is the only thing ever, and therefore the only thing they need to argue isn't broken?

I don't even think FakeSpeed Diggersby is broken, and in fact am somewhat mystified as to why it is so intensely popular.

But pretending that FakeSpeed is its only viable set makes no sense, and arguing against a ban for the Pokemon based on one set that I personally am not even talking about is nonsense.



+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 195-231 (51 - 60.4%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Um. If you say so? (Note that I grabbed a standard Landorus-Therian OU set -I didn't pick this one for any reason other than that it was what Calc gave)



If your argument hinges on FakeSpeed, then Diggersby is unnecessary.

Meanwhile Diggersby itself requires 2+ checks or counters and good prediction to counter Diggersby.

So what I'm hearing is

"Let's keep this epic overcentralization that is worse than this other overcentralization that won't actually happen under my own logic for why Diggersby is important"



Again: stop assuming I'm talking about FakeSpeed Diggersby. If you're switching in Gengar while they Shell Smash, you're screwed. FakeSpeed Diggersby struggles with Gengar, and it's not the only set that exists or matters.

(Also: due to Christmas, this is probably my last post for a day or so. Merry Christmas!

Or unhappy Christmas, whatever floats your boat)

You're forgetting the turn it takes to set up Shell Smash. Thus nearly anything that walls Diggersby normally walls SS variants as two unboosted hits are the same as one SS boosted hit (aside from counters that require being faster).

 

[Throbulator36]

I don't think you understand: The reason stall itself is usable atm is because diggersby stops all of those sweepers. If every team had to run multiple mons for that...it would be awful. Setup diggersby is also pretty predictable, we have established that stall can stop it with unaware and the reason other mons that would break stall aren't being used is the omnipresence of diggersby. Without it, we have to run multiple mons just to check all of the sweepers in the meta.

This is removing the tier catch all, and requiring multiple mons to counter the sweepers in the tier is the mere definition of overcentralization to SETUP.

So, stall is viable right now because of a HO mon? And setup is repressed by offensive pressure that isn't being applied? OK, I'll take your word for it considering you are an openly expressed avid HO user.
The reason stall is viable right now is Sableye/quagsire since they're both STALL mons that deal with setup.

Or were you trying to say that the mere existence of diggs keeps people from using setup mons on their teams? If that's what you're trying to say it's false because:

1. If it was true nobody would be arguing about fakespeed diggs because it wouldn't be a thing
2. You're proving ghoul king right because diggs breaks through every wall since no stall team would run anti-setup
3. People DO use setup mons and some of them are some of the most common pokemon in the meta(scizor)

 

[xJownage]

The reason people restrict use of setup sweepers is because of diggersby. The reason diggs is used is because it is so good in the first place. Completely different reasoning.

So you are saying that instead of running one or two mons that catch most to all sweepers, its fine to run 3 or 4 just to be non-matchup reliant? Unless you run multiple of those mons, you are going to be weak to certain sweepers, whereas in the diggersby meta it is less viable to run such sweepers AND you can run just one or two mons to prevent matchup reliance due to those sweepers to begin with.

Im hearing "run 3 mons on every team or be matchup reliant" is good for a meta.
.
.
.
No.

 

[Throbulator36]

The reason people restrict use of setup sweepers is because of diggersby. The reason diggs is used is because it is so good in the first place. Completely different reasoning.

yes, that is the reason diggs is used. But the amount of setup mons on a team doesn't make much difference since Sableye and quag are near catch alls on their own(you don't have to use both). I assume you've never made a team without diggs and therefore have no concept of the effectiveness of these two mons and other fakespeeders. Even without diggs setup sweeping will have trouble being effective.

So you are saying that instead of running one or two mons that catch most to all sweepers, its fine to run 3 or 4 just to be non-matchup reliant? Unless you run multiple of those mons, you are going to be weak to certain sweepers, whereas in the diggersby meta it is less viable to run such sweepers AND you can run just one or two mons to prevent matchup reliance due to those sweepers to begin with.

Im hearing "run 3 mons on every team or be matchup reliant" is good for a meta.
.
.
.
No.

I'm having trouble seeing how my post said anything about using more than one pokemon to counter/check setup.
I'm on the side of stated neutrality(for a similar reason to kit) and am finding it harder and harder to stay that way. You're not being frickin clever when you make straw man arguments ffs.

 

[Lcass4919]

Ok, im just going to say a couple of things mainly regarding some stuff people say, first, someone recently said "diggersby stops setup sweepers" which although true, general offensive pressure does too. If you keep attacking your opponent, they wont be able to set up and sweep your team, Unless they run quiver dance, coil or something, both of which are very rare due to the general "bad typing" they share. Diggersby/normal types in general are just able to do it even AFTER they set up due to fakespeed and half the time offensive teams end up running sableye/quag anyways to stop diggersby, so its not like setup is a huge problem. Again, something else i've been hearing is "proban assumes 6 slot coverage" well, so does/did greninja and genesect, 2 pokemon known for having counters-but only depending on which set it uses(all only having 1 or 2 universal checks might i add), and one is banned, and one is being suspected as we speak, of course, usually you assume a pokemon cannot have more then 4 attacks, but diggersby is 100% viable running whichever set it feels like running. want to run knock off? sure go ahead. want to run wild charge? no problems there. want to run fake out to stop sweepers? go ahead, it works. want u-turn for momentum? not to mention, diggers could easily run a choice band set over its fakespeed one and still do a good job revenge killing/wall breaking.

see, diggersby can be compared somewhat too "ates" in bh. as its a revenge killer with the ability to break walls, but its main downside is it actually suffers from 4mss so it cant wallbreak EVERYTHING in the teir, which is understandable, since otherwise it would suffer the same fate as altaria.

now, im not saying proban or conban, personally, i find diggersby annoying-but-managable. also stop attacking each other O.o its a debate, not the WWE world championships. if you find diggersby broken, say why. if you don't find it broken. say why. your opinion on the opposite sides opinion more often then not doesn't matter. like right now, you are all just spiraling in circles attacking each other instead of actually saying new valid stuff. in a court of law, you don't attack the prosecutor haphazardly for stating HIS facts saying they are wrong 20 times. you counter with your own. then he counters with NEW stuff or provides facts, until the truth becomes apparent. and if you don't bring up NEW information, then it proves you have lost. also cheating the system works ok, i get this isn't a court of law, but still. have some respect for one another.

 

[Pagoose]

I don't buy the whole "shell smash diggersby is broken" spiel. To be perfectly honest, there are probably several dozens threats that would be considered broken in normal ou, but in stabmons they are ok because of fakespeeders and sableye. I'm not going to list them all out because I'm on mobile, but anyone who plays stabmons will know what I'm talking about. Hell, I've been swept by a ss simple bibarel before with protect to bypass fake out. :P The point is, ss diggersby isn't any more "broken" than lots of other things in stabmons with op setup moves, so if people say diggersby is broken on the basis of shell smash sets, why shouldn't we ban all the other things? The answer to why we shouldn't also applys to diggersby; they're kept in check by sableye and fakespeeders.

 

[DinaIsha]

ExtremeSpeed / Shell Smash / KOff / Earthquake

Death by Quagsire.

Burn by Sableye, then Recovery. Topsy Turvy on further setup attempts.

Ferrothorn can take a +2 EQ and threaten to KO with STAB on the reduced defenses.

Tangrowth can take a +2 ESpeed and do the same.

Skarmory can KS and/or Roost while you take Rocky Helmet damage. Phaze you as you try to set up more.

 

[skies]

I don't understand why people are magically thinking that Diggersby will have exactly one on one every time it comes in? It has five other teammates, and it probably won't be KOing everything for sure. However, Diggersby wears down all of these threats and then can break them late game. Dunno why you'ld set up so early in the match though, unless the Focus Sash variant. I think, if anything, Diggersby is somewhat comparable to Greninja. Both are very powerful, capable of destroying HO, can break down Balance and Stall, and is ultimately broken. Sure it has checks, but not every HO team can run a Quagsire. Knock Off gets rid of Shed Shell, so Magnezone is out. I don't see how having like four fully defensive checks keep Diggersby from being broken.

 

[Lcass4919]

after looking at some calcs for choice band, i honestly want to kind of try it out now...

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake(precipice blades) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 304-358 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 216-256 (64.6 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(enless it has kings shield, which some do)
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 130-154 (34 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

choice band set is legit. power of fakeout/espeed plus sheer wallbreaking power. (obviously im not actually arguing about anything, im just saying, bandersby with extremespeed is a monster with minor prediction.) also still countered by landorus, but still looks fun as hell to try out(if only it got ice punch ;~;)

however:
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Head Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 195-231 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
in theory this could work. beating all things that wall it, while still maintaining its niche as pro revenge killer, and not sacrificing any detrimental coverage. Requires a bit more prediction, but to be honest, i think it could be worth it.