I'm still on the fence about this whole smogon frog ordeal, everyone here is right, ninja is almost always a threat to any team, but there are so many ways a well built OU team can get around ninja, it's just a whole prediction game. With that said, the statement that I just made reminds me of the days where aegislash was being suspected tested, people were running around saying "he's easy to predict, leave him in OU" and he got banned, but rightly so, he literally played so many mind games that it was ridiculous to get through. Mandibuzz was its only reliable counter, but leaving that argument aside, I feel like ninja's new toys, namely gunk shot and low kick, just took him to the next level. I mean, XY greninja was already a massive threat, wasn't it S ranked already? ORAS was just the cherry on top, there's really no reliable counter, and for that, I'm going to vote for ban. Even though I love using him, from a rational perspective, he's just got to go.
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Testing, Round 1 - Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles [Greninja is Uber]
- Thread starter haunter
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I like how the main con I heard for banning greninja (4mss) has shifted towards diversity? I personally don't see how more porygon2 usage = diversity nor do I see how diversity is relevant to the discussion of whether greninja is unhealthy to the ou metagame. I love porygon2 as much as the next person but the main issue with P2 is that it is literally a sitting duck that serves no other purpose than to tank hits from greninja. Besides, I would think that if one needs P2 to put a near full stop to greninja, then this limits teambuilding and results in less diversity, particularly with respect to playstyle.
That being said, I agree with the previous posts that greninja in particular wrecks balance but is easier to deal with offense (where the words no counters does not hold as much as you typically loosely check threats and provide offensive pressure against teams) and stall (where gren is easily worn down due susceptibility to hazards and status, etc. especially apply). Nevertheless, the issue I have with greninja especially refers to its over centralization and the fact that there are very limited answers in balance. it essentially reminds me of aegi in xy ou. But i am glad for this suspect. Though i am leaning towards ban, there have been a few well thought out posts for no bans as well despite the amount of cancerous posts amongst them.
That being said, I agree with the previous posts that greninja in particular wrecks balance but is easier to deal with offense (where the words no counters does not hold as much as you typically loosely check threats and provide offensive pressure against teams) and stall (where gren is easily worn down due susceptibility to hazards and status, etc. especially apply). Nevertheless, the issue I have with greninja especially refers to its over centralization and the fact that there are very limited answers in balance. it essentially reminds me of aegi in xy ou. But i am glad for this suspect. Though i am leaning towards ban, there have been a few well thought out posts for no bans as well despite the amount of cancerous posts amongst them.
careful, as greninja has an easy time ripping through "would-be" answers with the appropriate coverage move.
Subject 18 Edit: Removed stuff
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naturalstupidity
formerly The Imposter
Now, this thread has turned to absolute crap, but I might as well post my opinions here.
Greninja needs to go. While it may be the least broken of all the XY and ORAS suspects, it still has enough broken qualities to warrant a ban.
1. Greninja’s presence significantly lowers the viability of certain, well-established playstyles.
It’s pretty easy to see that balance and bulky offense struggle versus Greninja. The vast majority of popular balanced Pokemon and cores are severely hindered by Greninja (things like Ferrothorn+Heatran+Azumarill, Clefable, bulky Lando-T, etc.). These kinds of teams have little to stop Greninja, and by virtue of how they are played they are unable to afford the cost of suiciding a Pokemon to severely weaken it like hyper offense teams can. The few balance Pokemon that are viably able to stop it have easily exploitable flaws (Klefki, Tentacruel, and Empoleon are easily pressured thanks to a lack of reliable recovery, Chansey and Alomomola are horribly passive, and Porygon2 is massive Knock Off bait and only has situational viability outside of stopping Greninja). Balance and BO teams have little to legitimately stop Greninja, and what they do have is easily taken advantage of by the HO playstyle that Greninja is typically found on. A Pokemon which can single-handedly hurt an entire spectrum of playstyle’s viability is generally considered a negative metagame presence, and Greninja is just that.
2. Whenever the metagame adapts to Greninja, Greninja adapts to it.
Part of what makes Greninja so threatening is its ability to run a plethora of viable coverage moves that make otherwise-solid checks and counters situational checks at best. This phenomenon is easily seen by going out and playing a few ladder matches every once in a while. When things like Empoleon and AV Kyu-B get popular (for the sole purpose of beating Greninja, might I add), Greninja starts running Low Kick. When the metagame responds to that and people start running Tentacruel and Keldeo, Greninja shifts to Extrasensory. When people then shift to Slowbro and other bulky Psychics, Dark Pulse gets more common. Greninja’s presence makes the metagame volatile, forcing it to repeatedly shift by slightly altering its moveset. A stable metagame cannot be achieved when Greninja is just spinning it in circles, stagnating any real growth.
3. It is very difficult to scout Greninja’s set, and minor changes to it can completely invalidate whatever checks you may have.
Thanks to its universal STAB, Greninja hits hard. It also has such unparalleled coverage that there are very few things that viably check it. As has already been established, most checks to Greninja are beaten by one of its coverage moves. As such, careful switching needs to be necessary to ensure that your Greninja check can actually feasibly check it. Since every one of Greninja’s attacks hits pretty hard, you need to be very skilled to prevent Greninja from weakening your entire team during the scouting process. Frequently, all of that scouting is for nothing when Greninja turns out to have the coverage move to beat your check, and you end up SOL. Greninja is almost impossible to effectively play around, and that’s a serious problem when you need to play around it when you’re running balance or bulky offense. A skilled Greninja player is almost guaranteed two kills as their opponent is forced to play the lethal game of scouting its set. It creates high-risk situations for your opponent while being very low-risk to use. That combination is not conducive to a skill-based metagame.
Merry Christmahanukwaanzika by the way.
Greninja needs to go. While it may be the least broken of all the XY and ORAS suspects, it still has enough broken qualities to warrant a ban.
1. Greninja’s presence significantly lowers the viability of certain, well-established playstyles.
It’s pretty easy to see that balance and bulky offense struggle versus Greninja. The vast majority of popular balanced Pokemon and cores are severely hindered by Greninja (things like Ferrothorn+Heatran+Azumarill, Clefable, bulky Lando-T, etc.). These kinds of teams have little to stop Greninja, and by virtue of how they are played they are unable to afford the cost of suiciding a Pokemon to severely weaken it like hyper offense teams can. The few balance Pokemon that are viably able to stop it have easily exploitable flaws (Klefki, Tentacruel, and Empoleon are easily pressured thanks to a lack of reliable recovery, Chansey and Alomomola are horribly passive, and Porygon2 is massive Knock Off bait and only has situational viability outside of stopping Greninja). Balance and BO teams have little to legitimately stop Greninja, and what they do have is easily taken advantage of by the HO playstyle that Greninja is typically found on. A Pokemon which can single-handedly hurt an entire spectrum of playstyle’s viability is generally considered a negative metagame presence, and Greninja is just that.
2. Whenever the metagame adapts to Greninja, Greninja adapts to it.
Part of what makes Greninja so threatening is its ability to run a plethora of viable coverage moves that make otherwise-solid checks and counters situational checks at best. This phenomenon is easily seen by going out and playing a few ladder matches every once in a while. When things like Empoleon and AV Kyu-B get popular (for the sole purpose of beating Greninja, might I add), Greninja starts running Low Kick. When the metagame responds to that and people start running Tentacruel and Keldeo, Greninja shifts to Extrasensory. When people then shift to Slowbro and other bulky Psychics, Dark Pulse gets more common. Greninja’s presence makes the metagame volatile, forcing it to repeatedly shift by slightly altering its moveset. A stable metagame cannot be achieved when Greninja is just spinning it in circles, stagnating any real growth.
3. It is very difficult to scout Greninja’s set, and minor changes to it can completely invalidate whatever checks you may have.
Thanks to its universal STAB, Greninja hits hard. It also has such unparalleled coverage that there are very few things that viably check it. As has already been established, most checks to Greninja are beaten by one of its coverage moves. As such, careful switching needs to be necessary to ensure that your Greninja check can actually feasibly check it. Since every one of Greninja’s attacks hits pretty hard, you need to be very skilled to prevent Greninja from weakening your entire team during the scouting process. Frequently, all of that scouting is for nothing when Greninja turns out to have the coverage move to beat your check, and you end up SOL. Greninja is almost impossible to effectively play around, and that’s a serious problem when you need to play around it when you’re running balance or bulky offense. A skilled Greninja player is almost guaranteed two kills as their opponent is forced to play the lethal game of scouting its set. It creates high-risk situations for your opponent while being very low-risk to use. That combination is not conducive to a skill-based metagame.
Merry Christmahanukwaanzika by the way.
All these people posting about 4mss etc., is that even relevant? Greninja makes traditional balanced teams literally impossible to create w/o some kind of tailor-made scarf counter. Shouldn't the fact that in invalidates an entire play style be enough to ban? Idk, it's a really cool poke and obviously really popular but it's basically the same as Genesect/Aegislash to me. You can slap it on the end of any team and be better off for it, because its so good at its job that it's synergy with the rest of your squad is irrelevant. Realistically it, just like Aegi and Gene, is just a perfectly designed Pokemon from a competitive standpoint. It has everything that every similar poke before it has ever wanted, and the unfortunate truth is that this makes it too good to use in a restricted tier (which OU is). Obviously its not Mega-Groudon in OU broken, but it's clearly unhealthy for the metagame and teambuilding, and I would argue that it's actually more dangerous/difficult to deal with right now than either Genesect or Aegislash were at the time of their bans.
Okay, so I've been reading through this thread and the main argument I've been seeing for proban is that Greninja is simply unpredictable and is "hard to play around" because of its sheer versatility. Seems like a solid argument, as it IS true that Greninja can run a plethora of moves and is nearly unbeatable before the opposing player can scout out the specific moves that that particular Greninja is using.
However, the anti-ban party's points seems to be really flimsy as the main argument (from what I've been seeing) is that Greninja has "checks and counters". Give me a Pokemon that DOESN'T have a check or counter. Just because Greninja has answers doesn't make it inherently NOT broken. Yes, it is easy to revenge kill. Yes, it has a hard time switching in.
And like The Imposter mentioned in his rather excellent post above, Greninja forces metagame shifts and leaves players with no choice but to run 'mons that have only a niche in checking Greninja. Even so, most of these checks can be eliminated by switching a coverage move, which causes players to use different 'mons to check it, etc., causing an unhealthy cycle and leads to an unhealthy metagame.
However, the anti-ban party's points seems to be really flimsy as the main argument (from what I've been seeing) is that Greninja has "checks and counters". Give me a Pokemon that DOESN'T have a check or counter. Just because Greninja has answers doesn't make it inherently NOT broken. Yes, it is easy to revenge kill. Yes, it has a hard time switching in.
And like The Imposter mentioned in his rather excellent post above, Greninja forces metagame shifts and leaves players with no choice but to run 'mons that have only a niche in checking Greninja. Even so, most of these checks can be eliminated by switching a coverage move, which causes players to use different 'mons to check it, etc., causing an unhealthy cycle and leads to an unhealthy metagame.
Just to say something here (I'm not entering this discussion as repeating some stuff would be just pointless) lack of ability to switch in is fixable by using for example slow volt switch/u-turn Pokemon (No Speed Defensive Jirachi may work for example and as a bonus you have pretty decent defensive synergy as Greninja may switch on fire, dark or ghost attacks aimed on Jirachi) or Celebi, etc. and with this you practically switch in for free with Greninja as the U-Turner/Volt Switcher takes the hit instead of Ninja Frog. Also Dual Screener with U-Turn (like Azelf, it's not that viable in OU, but to support Dark Frog, why not or something else, this is just an example) sounds like a good option to soften up a hit. And if Defog user like let's say Zapdos switch in to eliminate screens, Greninja will be more then happy to obliterate it with Ice Beam and with dual screens on it's suddenly harder to revenge kill as well and Ninja Frog has practically unlimited movepool options to threaten all potential Defoggers.
So to be honest this argument is weak as as you can see you may just work around frailty of Greninja by using stuff like this. You may also use Memento user, etc. etc. Actually there are options to get in Greninja safely and let it wreck havoc for free if you are willing to work around this. And with coverage and power Greninja brings, lack of the need to set-up is another GREAT thing which make this kind of support even more neat.
Most of these arguments Are based on high level play, where the user of greninja always knows what he us doing, and won't sack it to a revenge kill if he/she notices how well it pared up against the opponents team. Also the this game is not played on paper argument is absolutely crap! Why do you think the test is here in the first place, because someone discovered how good greninja could hypothetically be? No, it comes from countless games where greninja was a broken force.
And also, why even add the "prepare to be flamed" part? The only reason for someone to be flammed would be if their arguments are bad, and if you knew you would be flamed, you would also know you are wrong. Not saying you are wrong
I'm noticing an awful lot of "I rarely find greninja hard to deal with" and "I never had a problem with greninja" being used as some sort of basis for an argument. This means absolutely nothing, and a lot of people actually interpret it as lack of experience and an inability to climb the ladder past 1300 or so. This kinda statement always irks me because it's condescending to the many of us who struggle against Greninja. Not to mention it's a completely baseless claim that is almost never backed by any examples or even theoretical scenarios.
so pls stop :I
so pls stop :I
This all over, agree 100%.
You can switch around like a madman if you're playing somebody bad / average, but a decent player's going to bop you hard.
The 4mss argument doesn't fly either because a) Gren is the most customisable threat in the meta, and can choose his moves to fit a variety of imagined scenarios that threaten the team he's on, and b) Gren can utilise the THREAT of possessing a certain move, even if it doesn't. Good players know how to weigh up risk to make optimal plays. Another good player can predict this assessment and bluff a move by bringing Gren in on something it actually can't touch to force it out.
The checks and counters argument falls because of the same logic, and by the time you've scouted all 4 of Gren's moves (which you need to do to know if you can actually check or counter it), about half your team has been placed in high risk situations, probably repeatedly smashed and weakened for other threats to capitalise on later in the match - or KOd outright - and in the meantime, Gren's taken like 30-40% Life Orb recoil... Lol.
So broken.
naturalstupidity
formerly The Imposter
The question I have to ask is this: so what?
Greninja doesn't need to take hits to do its job. It can perform exceptionally as a hit-and-run attacker, coming in on the great number of things that it forces out, and firing off a powerful hit. The switch-in will take decent damage, and Greninja switches out, having done its job and being able to come in later to do the exact same thing. Most non-defensive teams aren't able to keep up for long, and Greninja quickly breaks through, turning any remotely passive Pokemon into a liability. Its frailty is irrelevant.
I'm not even going to address the ban-happy argument because that's all pointless opinion.
so your saying u asume everyone is gonna not gonna predicted your switch into bisharp or keldo and u assume u switch in a pokemon that is usally gonna get outspeed and one shot by nijia is gonna be scarf and the nijia user is gonna switch out only if your are playing like in really low ladder so what is your point. Also, nijia vs talonflame the nijia user can freely switch out and u can always switch out talon cause of rocks so i think that should get bannded.
Everything can be revenge killed lol, except mega rayquaza, maybe.
There is a command called "switch" on the simulator. Greninja doesn't need to set up for do insane damages, he can esily switch against something able to threat him (scarf keldeo, scarf lando, talonflame, cbnite, the end? Or we should put a scarf on every pokemon for that thing?) Remember, the player with greninja has other 5 pokemons. This is not a greninja vs. the world, this is greninja + 5 other pokemons. Is a little different.
U say breloom threats greninja/conk, but not after a gunk shot.
Same for scizor after an hydro pump. So ?_?
They cannot revenge kill him 100% of times, unless u wanna play in every team breloom/conk with scizor.
If u think about the OU, they are all pokemon banned from PU NU, RU, UU. Why no one say a single thing about this? It's called tier system dude, accept it and say thanks to smogon for introduce this in pokemon.
nijia has some counters but only by the move set you are running. If you are runnig empolon u die to low kick, ferro hp fire or low kick, if u think u are smart running tena or mega venu there is extrasensory, the only real safe counters are p2,cres, vaperoen, and umbreon which is unhealthy for the metagame and makes building teams harder.
naturalstupidity
formerly The Imposter
Are you attempting to say that Greninja shouldn't be banned?
Because, if you are, you just conceded that it should. An unhealthy metagame is undesirable. If Greninja is creating an unhealthy metagame, we have no reason not to ban it. If Greninja doesn't have a positive presence in the metagame while having a negative one, it should be banned. It's a simple logical syllogism - Things which are a negative metagame presence ought to be banned - Greninja is a negative metagame presence - Therefore Greninja ought to be banned.
As a tip for those of you arguing anti-ban - we've established that Greninja has a negative presence in the metagame, and your not addressing this point in effect means you've conceded it. If you want to argue that Greninja shouldn't be banned, either show that it is not inhibiting teambuilding, show that it is a positive metagame force, or show that things that are a negative metagame presence ought not always be banned.
You better not shout, you better not cry,
you better not pout, I'm telling you why.
Greninja's ban is coming, to town.
He is checking your team, and sweeping it twice
Gonna find out whose fairy and whose ice
Greninja's ban is coming, to town.
He sees you when you're resting
He knows when you're awake.
He knows you cannot counter him
so a ban for goodness sake
You better not shout, you better not cry,
you better not pout, I'm telling you why.
Greninja's ban is coming, TO TOWWWWN!
you better not pout, I'm telling you why.
Greninja's ban is coming, to town.
He is checking your team, and sweeping it twice
Gonna find out whose fairy and whose ice
Greninja's ban is coming, to town.
He sees you when you're resting
He knows when you're awake.
He knows you cannot counter him
so a ban for goodness sake
You better not shout, you better not cry,
you better not pout, I'm telling you why.
Greninja's ban is coming, TO TOWWWWN!
Explain his flaws.
I already answered to "no bulkyness flaws".
People are forced to run a "pseudo" check of greninja in every team if they don't wanna see their team decimated by the ninja. Is this healthy in a metagame? Metagame means balance, not "waste a slot with a pseudo check for greninja".
Just read this thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...week-36-greninja.3509781/page-48#post-5941393 people post counter/checks based on his most used set with only the fourth move slashed. And he doesn't have hydro pump in the set. After reading that, laugh.
And that set is only based on one month of usage. 2 weeks ago the normal set was hpump/ibeam/gshot/dpulse. Now he lost hydro pump for low kick, because empoleon, ferrothorn and chansey was really common. If players start running alomomola for counter him, he can simply start running grass knot.
Players start running gyarados? He can use hp electric (with stab, so he has a move with the same power of tbolt). Players start using scizor for countering him? He can simply drop gunk shot, and go with hydro pump for a 2kho and resist against bullet punch. This is simply insane.
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Quite the contrary.
It's debatable whether or not Greninja is broken. I don't think it is, inherently.
However, it does have a negative effect on teambuilding and the metagame.
Previously, Greninja could be countered by fairies and special walls. However, Gunk Shot and Low Kick means that those are no longer a problem for it.
Your only hope of taking out Greninja now are faster Scarf users, or priority.
And while these definitions are outdated, one of them certainly applies to Greninja.
Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.
And that's exactly what Greninja does. It punches holes in the opposing team, making it easier for its teammates to sweep.
and for the last time, greninja doesn't suffer from 4mss. battletoad can adapt to any given situation with the right partners. this thing makes people paranoid when they team build since they never know what the opponent's greninja is packing. extrasensory? bye bye mega venu. hidden power fire? kiss your ferro goodbye. low kick? sayonara, porygon-2/empoleon/chansey! 4mss hampers a pokemon; battletoad's myriad of different moves doesn't hamper it, it makes it more difficult to prepare for.
Are people really batching about greninja usage in Ubers and that gunk has shifty accuracy, while he has 4MSS?
What kind of scald ninja mentality these guys have? OK here comes a small rant on greninja abilities and it's need to run gunk as I stated on the biggest eye cancer I witnessed called Facebook... Seriously mods I praise your sanity on keeping this clean, I truly appreciate your efforts, OK here it goes.
Pgunk is just the same as focus miss, in the way it is a strong move that allows dome pokemon to hit stuff they would never be able to pass trough, you call them inaccurate an unappealing I call them a MUST, without focus miss heatran and ttar laugh at loads of shit namely every special oriented psychic type or bipedal fire types, in the same way with gunk shoot Greninja not only gained a tool to hit stuff he never could hope to beat on the switch in Before(and that makes it the best improvement ever received) not to mention the fact that thanks to protean not only a coverage move but effective stab whereas focus miss users couldn't gain a boost to focus miss power.
With that said Greninja can drop most of its moves and remain with 2 core moves, Gunk and icebeam. Hydropump can be dropped entirely without repercussions to its coverage, low kick vs HP fire is debatable and dependant on what you want to snipe, and with all honesty I prefer to run Low kick as it let's me handle ttar, heatran and sent spdef ferro on the switch in, while dealing some damage to porygon2 and umbreon wich are considered it's would be counters. I don't mention chansey here as se low kick hits as hard as pgunk both at 120BP even when counting low kick SE DAMAGE wich is 60*2, that and considering you ran Low kick leaves you with 3 options, ESensory for Keldeo, tentacruek and conkeldur, dulce for common neutral steel switch ins, Cresselia and Slowbro, or GK against some bulky waters and Ttar if arguing on weight business, HP grass can be considered for room W, but Deals deals consistent damage to itu without SE. Never use scald... It's damage is inferior in every scenario, but Hpump deserves a shot if you forego low kick and wish to use HP fire.
Having said that, there will always be a pokemon walling you, but it's true 2 Moveslot make it a serious gamble once momentum is lost.
And honestly even with prediction by your side weavile faces issues on OU nowadays wich makes him unreliable on most scenarios, Tulane needs to come after something was killed by ninja, and ninja can add loans switch out, or let you kill him as he achieved it's kill. Scizor can come in a resisted icebeam and bpunch, upturn on the switch or heavily Pierce ninja with pursuit, I'll give you that, but on most Greninja builds that's a scarce scenario.
The most reliable counters are Chansey, Porygon2 and Umbreon. The 2 former are too passive, are knockoff bait and can't fit on most teams, umbreon role as a cleric with stab foulplay allow him to fit better but most Greninja teammates have a field trip on him(SCREW YOU PIVOTS AND GOTHITHELE), there is also manaphy.... But again that doesn't fit on most teams and it's spread to counter Greninja is inferior to checking Slowbro and sableye, not to mention Spdef alomomola wich compromises a teams momentum and is passive as hell.
Honestly if a pokemon causes people to deviate this hard on team building with that amount of few drawbacks it becomes a centralizing point of the metagame, add to that a kickers design and there is no reason to not use the frog, wich has made the OU metagame stagnant. It doesn't matter how he fares in Ubers as the tiring system takes into account the role a pokemon has in its tier, he ain't becoming an uber by might, he is being suspect tested for a ban at OU by right. So whether he sucks in Ubers and EG, becomes irrelevant for a suspect test.
Think for a sec and you'll find Greninja abilities to be cancerous for OU, I hold my ground on my ban claim. I hope I made you consider your argument as a poster in the future, instead of being the echo of the competitively uneducated collective, if you are going to post at least validate your arguments without degrading this to a I THING MY SHINNY GRENINJA MUST STAB BECAME I LIKE TO USE IT BUT IT DIES FAST AS I DON'T LIKE TO SWITCH THE FRLG CHO CHO, AND WITH THAT SAID I THING NO ONE SWITCH, NOW EXCUSE ME AS I FISH BURNS WITH MY SCALD SHINNY GRENINJA... Honestly it got old to fast.
What kind of scald ninja mentality these guys have? OK here comes a small rant on greninja abilities and it's need to run gunk as I stated on the biggest eye cancer I witnessed called Facebook... Seriously mods I praise your sanity on keeping this clean, I truly appreciate your efforts, OK here it goes.
Pgunk is just the same as focus miss, in the way it is a strong move that allows dome pokemon to hit stuff they would never be able to pass trough, you call them inaccurate an unappealing I call them a MUST, without focus miss heatran and ttar laugh at loads of shit namely every special oriented psychic type or bipedal fire types, in the same way with gunk shoot Greninja not only gained a tool to hit stuff he never could hope to beat on the switch in Before(and that makes it the best improvement ever received) not to mention the fact that thanks to protean not only a coverage move but effective stab whereas focus miss users couldn't gain a boost to focus miss power.
With that said Greninja can drop most of its moves and remain with 2 core moves, Gunk and icebeam. Hydropump can be dropped entirely without repercussions to its coverage, low kick vs HP fire is debatable and dependant on what you want to snipe, and with all honesty I prefer to run Low kick as it let's me handle ttar, heatran and sent spdef ferro on the switch in, while dealing some damage to porygon2 and umbreon wich are considered it's would be counters. I don't mention chansey here as se low kick hits as hard as pgunk both at 120BP even when counting low kick SE DAMAGE wich is 60*2, that and considering you ran Low kick leaves you with 3 options, ESensory for Keldeo, tentacruek and conkeldur, dulce for common neutral steel switch ins, Cresselia and Slowbro, or GK against some bulky waters and Ttar if arguing on weight business, HP grass can be considered for room W, but Deals deals consistent damage to itu without SE. Never use scald... It's damage is inferior in every scenario, but Hpump deserves a shot if you forego low kick and wish to use HP fire.
Having said that, there will always be a pokemon walling you, but it's true 2 Moveslot make it a serious gamble once momentum is lost.
And honestly even with prediction by your side weavile faces issues on OU nowadays wich makes him unreliable on most scenarios, Tulane needs to come after something was killed by ninja, and ninja can add loans switch out, or let you kill him as he achieved it's kill. Scizor can come in a resisted icebeam and bpunch, upturn on the switch or heavily Pierce ninja with pursuit, I'll give you that, but on most Greninja builds that's a scarce scenario.
The most reliable counters are Chansey, Porygon2 and Umbreon. The 2 former are too passive, are knockoff bait and can't fit on most teams, umbreon role as a cleric with stab foulplay allow him to fit better but most Greninja teammates have a field trip on him(SCREW YOU PIVOTS AND GOTHITHELE), there is also manaphy.... But again that doesn't fit on most teams and it's spread to counter Greninja is inferior to checking Slowbro and sableye, not to mention Spdef alomomola wich compromises a teams momentum and is passive as hell.
Honestly if a pokemon causes people to deviate this hard on team building with that amount of few drawbacks it becomes a centralizing point of the metagame, add to that a kickers design and there is no reason to not use the frog, wich has made the OU metagame stagnant. It doesn't matter how he fares in Ubers as the tiring system takes into account the role a pokemon has in its tier, he ain't becoming an uber by might, he is being suspect tested for a ban at OU by right. So whether he sucks in Ubers and EG, becomes irrelevant for a suspect test.
Think for a sec and you'll find Greninja abilities to be cancerous for OU, I hold my ground on my ban claim. I hope I made you consider your argument as a poster in the future, instead of being the echo of the competitively uneducated collective, if you are going to post at least validate your arguments without degrading this to a I THING MY SHINNY GRENINJA MUST STAB BECAME I LIKE TO USE IT BUT IT DIES FAST AS I DON'T LIKE TO SWITCH THE FRLG CHO CHO, AND WITH THAT SAID I THING NO ONE SWITCH, NOW EXCUSE ME AS I FISH BURNS WITH MY SCALD SHINNY GRENINJA... Honestly it got old to fast.
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You can change the base stats in the calculator, just saying. You can also change the pokemon's type. Also I greatly disagree about Assault Vest Conkeldurr being able to handle Extrasensory.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 198-237 (47.8 - 57.2%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO
He don't want to switch into that. He also don't want to switch into a Gunk Shot, for that does a surprising amount of damage.
I have plenty of issues with your points, but I am tired because of reasons so I will let someone else point them out.
That is what you call a check. A counter is something that can safely switch in on an opposing Pokemon, and force it out. A check is something that cannot switch in on a Pokemon, but can force it out.
Lopunny can definitely outspeed and knock out Greninja, but it can't safely switch in on an opposing Greninja!
Is that with a + Sp Def nature?
Oh, forgot to do that. Sorry about that.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 182-218 (43.9 - 52.6%) -- 19.5% chance to 2HKO
And with entry hazards.
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 182-218 (43.9 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 182-218 (43.9 - 52.6%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Greninja is an adaptable bastard. If it needs to run HP Grass or HP Electric or HP Fire it can. The checks that hope Greninja doesn't run a specific move are doomed as they can cause Greninja to run that specific move.
Furthermore,
212 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
212 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Quaggy's not taking most hits very well. This is with maximum special bulk, too, which leaves Quaggy unable to handle physical threats it once could.
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Quagsire: 225-265 (57.1 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
with 252+ defense, this is a 3HKO that Quagsire can stall out. Now, Quaggy's a free KO.
So you take Quagsire's utility against physical threats, and... leave it still unable to handle Greninja.
- Status