Resource LC Viability Rankings

[MegaGallade]

Treecko for D Rank:

For some reason or another, I decided to use a 'SmogFrog' LC team, using various Pokemon in the E Rank in a team. And for some reason or another, it was a pretty alright team.
Treecko, however, was the MVP, most of the time. Using a SD Sash Unburden set, with STAB, Acrobatics and Rock Slide, it sweeps teams, given in the right conditions.

Here is a replay where it straight up sweeps a team:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-194588511
Hazards, of course, are the only way to counter my set especially, but I was lucky enough in this battle to allow me to sweep by having Treecko in the first slot.

Skip to Turn 14 to see Treecko:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-195975341
Seemingly a late game sweeper, unburden works wonders again.

In all, Treecko isn't as bad as it seems, and could be used on a serious team (which mine was not). Albeit, could.
As I said, hazards are a counter, unless it is sent out the same time hazards are. Treecko could hold other items, such as Berry Juice, but the Sash uses Treecko's frailness to its advantage.
Because of this, I believe Treecko should be D Rank, at least, instead of E Rank.

 

[tazz]

sash SD unburden sounds like a gimmick. anything can sweep given the right conditions, treecko being an example. it's dealt with by priority, very bulky mons, and SR, and most teams will have at least two of those things. considering it probably won't be sweeping serious teams, it should stay e rank.

 

[Yagura]

I do agree with Treecko being moved up to D but I have to say that the sash set is indeed gimmicky and isn't the best set it can run. Treecko can function well as a late game sweeper with Swords Dance if it's given the right support by the right teammates, it can run a Berry Juice set with Acrobatics that is way better than the gimmicky Sash set and to make back for its mediocre bulk it can invest in HP instead of Speed (it hits 30 Speed after the Unburden boost without needing any Speed EVs). Treecko also has a solid coverage with Acrobatics to hit Grass-, Fighting-, and the rare Bug-types, Drain Punch for Steel-types and Rock Slide too.

It has a niche thus it's worthy of being D-rank.

 

[Camden]

Is it possible for Surskit to move up to B-? As a lot of people have seen, Sticky Web is great because of all the Pokemon that can abuse or support it, and Surskit is easily the best setter of it. Along with setting webs at 17 Speed, it can also fire off an emergency Hydro Pump which deals decent damage for a support Pokemon. I know it's not really doing much, but considering how prominent webs are in the meta right now (whether it's just a trend or real) its support is incredibly helpful. Hell, because all it HAS to do is Sticky Web, it leaves the other 3 slots to be anything. Hydro Pump is the preferred 2nd move, and I personally like using String Shot and Thief for the last two. Just some goofy options to mess with your opponent, and they can actually be quite useful.

 

[doomsday doink]

Is it possible for Surskit to move up to B-? As a lot of people have seen, Sticky Web is great because of all the Pokemon that can abuse or support it, and Surskit is easily the best setter of it. Along with setting webs at 17 Speed, it can also fire off an emergency Hydro Pump which deals decent damage for a support Pokemon. I know it's not really doing much, but considering how prominent webs are in the meta right now (whether it's just a trend or real) its support is incredibly helpful. Help, because all it HAS to do is Sticky Web, it leaves the other 3 slots to be anything. Hydro Pump is the preferred 2nd move, and I personally like using String Shot and Thief for the last two. Just some goofy options to mess with your opponent, and they can actually be quite useful.

Seconding this.

Also, Staryu should move up to A-, because it's probably the best hazard remover right now. An offensive spin set can 2HKO Pumpkaboo with Ice Beam and still hit foes really fucking hard. The bulkier set can serve as a check to a lot of Pokemon such as Drilbur, Archen, and even Croagunk, as Psychic has become a staple of said set. It also hits 19 Speed and has a really diverse movepool so it can handle a variety of Pokemon rather well. There's probably more reasons and stuff, but Staryu's a good Pokemon and somehow was only recently "rediscovered" as a threat.

 

[Corporal Levi]

Treecko -> D
Surskit -> B-
Pancham -> A
Skrelp -> B+
Staryu -> A-

If anybody has any valid concerns with these movements, feel free to post

 

[boo836]

nominating fletchling for S.

it really should not have moved down in the first place. Fletchling's easily the second most devastating set up sweeper (first being pawniard, NOT Timburr) in all of lc. Its STAB 110 priority move is actually one of the strongest attacks in the game (tying with pawniard's full strength knock off). fletchling is capable of taking on common types, and forcing switches with the threat of tearing them to shreds. it's able to gain momentum off said switches with u-turn, and bust up common switch ins (not named chou) with a coverage move. the only reason i'd say fletch is second to pawn is because it has a lower output against the entirety of LC, and it has less bulk. However, Fletchling's advantages separate it from pawniard, and easily puts it above other A+ ranked mons.

 

[Rowan]

nominating fletchling for S.

it really should not have moved down in the first place. Fletchling's easily the second most devastating set up sweeper (first being pawniard, NOT Timburr) in all of lc. Its STAB 110 priority move is actually one of the strongest attacks in the game (tying with pawniard's full strength knock off). fletchling is capable of taking on common types, and forcing switches with the threat of tearing them to shreds. it's able to gain momentum off said switches with u-turn, and bust up common switch ins (not named chou) with a coverage move. the only reason i'd say fletch is second to pawn is because it has a lower output against the entirety of LC, and it has less bulk. However, Fletchling's advantages separate it from pawniard, and easily puts it above other A+ ranked mons.

no

 

[boo836]

no

great post

 

[boo836]

if you aren't moving fletch, then kick down tirt, mag, and archen. Mons that jumped because they checked fletch should definitely not be in the same ranking, especially considering that the former two are mediocre in this metagame.

 

[Yagura]

if you aren't moving fletch, then kick down tirt, mag, and archen. Mons that jumped because they checked fletch should definitely not be in the same ranking, especially considering that the former two are mediocre in this metagame.

So you're saying that Tirtouga, Magnemite, and Archen have been made A+ because they can check Fletchling? that doesn't make any sense and nor does your statement of Archen and Magnemite being "mediocre" in the current meta, Archen is one of the best offensive mons in the meta atm with a wide offensive movepool and it can also remove hazards with Defog and also run a bulky Eviolite set that uses its decent bulk and typing, and Magnemite is one of the best special attackers in the meta that can function as a scarfer or a juice sturdy mon that abuses Recycle and not to mention that the Endure+Recycle and BJ set can check most of the meta with ease.

There is no needs to have several pages of arguments about Fletchling once again.

 

[boo836]

magnemite is easily checked by most knock off users, chinchou, ferro, and so on. Tirt's not even close to being a+ worthy when it loses as a sweeper to a major portion of the meta. i stated that archen isn't mediocre, but it's pretty underwhelming when it's also checked by so many common mons.

 

[bb skarm]

hi, i dont really post in this thread because unpopular opinions get absolutely berated for no reason, but i think ill give this a try:

nominating

for D rank

So I was laddering some LC the other day and I was getting awfully bored of seeing the same shit, and decided just to play with some mons that just were ignored and were not even ranked. Eventually I decided that I was going to try out electrike. Its Special Attack and Speed are actually somewhat good (high special attack than chinchou and higher speed than magnemite) and I've played around with many sets, such as the most-standard scarf and also a bit with LO, and they do have good damage outputs. Now, electrike definitely is not a metagame-defining threat or amazing, and in fact, mostly finds itself outclassed by magnemite and chinchou.

Actually, the things that separate electrike from other electric-types is its access to flamethrower/overheat and either being more powerful than chinchou or faster than magnemite. Whenever I saw a Ferroseed when I used Magnemite or Chinchou I basically was just asking it to set up on me if, and Electrike just OHKOes it. Electrike does really just peform as a frailer yet more powerful chinchou and faster yet less powerful magnemite, and while you will always have trouble justifying using it over the aforementioned two, flamethrower and either one of its better qualities than one of these pokemon will actually make it usable.

(sorry if this is a bit of a clutter, i wasn't sure how to really persuade you all, but pls read everything)

use this set

Electrike @ Eviolite / Life Orb / Choice Scarf
Ability: Lightning Rod
Nature: Modest
EVs: 36 Def / 236 SpA / 236 Spe
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Ice

 

[tazz]

Although archen and maybe magnemite should stay A+, tirtouga is ranked way too high there and should probably drop, not because of fletchling but because it just isn't as good as any of the A+ mons. The ss set is not only stopped by mienfoo and other really bulky mons, but also ties with 16 speed scarfers and has a tough time sweeping. The support set is worn down easily and is weak to many common types. It is also prone to being knocked off, preventing it from checking many things that it wants to check.

 

[Good Morgan]

Seconding Tirtouga to A or A-. With the seeming rise of Grass-types in the tier, including newly buffed mons Chespin, Pumpkaboo, and Snivy, Tirtouga's Rock/Water typing is an increasing liability. While still a good support mon, Tirt suffers from an absolutely horrendous Speed, being outsped by It also has a large issue as a sweeper, as its dismal speed can only take it up to 12 with maximum even a negative natured Porygon. This creates issues on the Shell Smash set, as the maximum possible 24 speed (and the standard 22 speed) cannot outspeed common scarfers such as max investment Chinchou, Gastly, and max investment Mienfoo. This would not be a large problem were it not for the fact that these, along with Pawniard (a 16 speed scarfer - speed ties at 24) are the most common scarfers. These scarfers are also capable of severely damaging Tirt, especially Chinchou. Even with maximum investment, Tirtouga gets demolished:

252+ SpA Chinchou Thunderbolt vs. -1 244 HP / 236+ SpD Tirtouga: 32-38 (128 - 152%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 38)

252+ SpA Chinchou Volt Switch vs. -1 244 HP / 236+ SpD Tirtouga: 24-30 (96 - 120%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
(24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 30)

This is, of course, after a Shell Smash. Without a Shell Smash, however, the calcs look like:

252+ SpA Chinchou Thunderbolt vs. 244 HP / 236+ SpD Tirtouga: 20-26 (80 - 104%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
(20, 20, 20, 20, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26)

252+ SpA Chinchou Volt Switch vs. 244 HP / 236+ SpD Tirtouga: 14-20 (56 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(14, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20)

Tirtouga is also completely demolished by Croagunk, a glue mon increasing in popularity. Croagunk is immune to Water with Dry Skin and resists Rock, and can recover off the damage with a super-effective Drain Punch. Being a Fletch check does not warrant the gaping weaknesses to Fighting spam, Grassmons, and Pawniard. Overall, Tirtouga is still a storngmon, but is undeserving of A+.

 

[Tymano]

Seconding Tirtouga to A or A-. With the seeming rise of Grass-types in the tier, including newly buffed mons Chespin, Pumpkaboo, and Snivy, Tirtouga's Rock/Water typing is an increasing liability. While still a good support mon, Tirt suffers from an absolutely horrendous Speed, being outsped by It also has a large issue as a sweeper, as its dismal speed can only take it up to 12 with maximum even a negative natured Porygon. This creates issues on the Shell Smash set, as the maximum possible 24 speed (and the standard 22 speed) cannot outspeed common scarfers such as max investment Chinchou, Gastly, and max investment Mienfoo. This would not be a large problem were it not for the fact that these, along with Pawniard (a 16 speed scarfer - speed ties at 24) are the most common scarfers. These scarfers are also capable of severely damaging Tirt, especially Chinchou. Even with maximum investment, Tirtouga gets demolished:

252+ SpA Chinchou Thunderbolt vs. -1 244 HP / 236+ SpD Tirtouga: 32-38 (128 - 152%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 36, 38)

252+ SpA Chinchou Volt Switch vs. -1 244 HP / 236+ SpD Tirtouga: 24-30 (96 - 120%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
(24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 30)

This is, of course, after a Shell Smash. Without a Shell Smash, however, the calcs look like:

252+ SpA Chinchou Thunderbolt vs. 244 HP / 236+ SpD Tirtouga: 20-26 (80 - 104%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
(20, 20, 20, 20, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26)

252+ SpA Chinchou Volt Switch vs. 244 HP / 236+ SpD Tirtouga: 14-20 (56 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(14, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20)

Tirtouga is also completely demolished by Croagunk, a glue mon increasing in popularity. Croagunk is immune to Water with Dry Skin and resists Rock, and can recover off the damage with a super-effective Drain Punch. Being a Fletch check does not warrant the gaping weaknesses to Fighting spam, Grassmons, and Pawniard. Overall, Tirtouga is still a storngmon, but is undeserving of A+.

That is also why most SS sets are sturdy+berry juice. After a single shell smash, since you probably would have lived an attack with 1 hp and healed yourself back up, most of these grass types are outsped by tirt, so tirt can possibly set up rocks, or use an attack. like ice beam, scald, stone edge, or eq.
EQ OHKO's gunk, so that is not really an issue.
Tirtouga stays in A+.

 

[Good Morgan]

That is also why most SS sets are sturdy+berry juice. After a single shell smash, since you probably would have lived an attack with 1 hp and healed yourself back up, most of these grass types are outsped by tirt, so tirt can possibly set up rocks, or use an attack. like ice beam, scald, stone edge, or eq.
EQ OHKO's gunk, so that is not really an issue.
Tirtouga stays in A+.

Sturdy is one of Tirt's issues, as it absolutely requires hazard support. It does not have Endure, like Magnemite, so it only functions either early game or with hazard support, and hazard support is increasingly difficult with the rise of Pumpkaboo and the ever-prominence of Pawniard. Also, if Tirt chooses Earthquake, it has to forgo Aqua Jet/Ice Beam.

 

[tazz]

Ice beam ss tirtouga is extremely rare and not common enough to take into account as a coverage move. Tirt can't touch the grass types and will be OHKOd. Gunk checks with vacuum wave, so it is an issue.

 

[Pancham]

calcs

None of your calcs are even using Solid Rock, why do they matter? Nobody uses bulky Sturdy Tirtouga........

 

[Good Morgan]

None of your calcs are even using Solid Rock, why do they matter?

Because they're all done on a Sturdy Tirt. The Solid Rock ones are probably more relevant tho

 

[Pancham]

Because they're all done on a Sturdy Tirt. The Solid Rock ones are probably more relevant tho

Nobody uses Bulky Sturdy Tirtouga ?_?

Chinchou will always 3HKO Sturdy Tirtouga no matter what EVs it's using...

 

[SilentMango]

Completely "thirding," the drop of Tirtouga from A+ rank to A.

I think this, because Tirtouga isn't either TRULY versatile, nor is it 100% god at what it does (like Abra), so that it can excuse the diversity. At least in my eyes, TRUE versatility means that a pokemon can use another move in it's arsenal to get around a check/counter, while not cutting a lot, if any viability away from the pokemon. For example, my once not so favorite Magnemite. If you saw a Magnemite on the opposing team, you very likely would set up Stealth Rocks, predicting the BerryJuice set. However, Magnemite could be running a Scarfed Set instead, or It could very well be a "SturdyRecycleJuice" Magnemite, but with endure. These two options help Magnemite get around the potential problem of Stealth Rocks. Ponyta can run SunnyBeam to get around Chinchous, and be just as viable. Just as a different type of pokemon. Tirtouga, one could say, has versatility. Shell Smash, and the defensive set. But I say not so much. Regardless of the set, Timburr can come switch in. The difference of sets doesn't help Tirtouga deal with Timburr, or any other fighting type really. Lord Pumpkaboo and other grass types are also good switch-ins regardless of the set, unless you decide to run Ice-Beam. However, at least IMHO, that would lessen the viability of the sets.

Tirtouga also can't perform the role it is supposed to do exceedingly well that it has an excuse like Abra for the lack of diversity it has. Tirtouga is not a very reliable Shell Smash Sweeper, as it absolutely requires hazard control to be successful. Tirtouga is also not a reliable safety net for these reasons. Tirtouga is not a reliable wall, as it has no form of recovery. Even Fletchling, one pokemon that Tirtouga "counters," can be muscled past with it's DIVERSITY, as Fletchling can go mixed and utilize a HPGrass.

And tbh, if Drilbur is moving down a rank, because Pumpkaboo completely walls it unless it runs funky coverage, and Drilbur has a harder time dealing with Pancham 1v1. Drilbur also was said to be worn down too easily as a support, and while Tirtouga is definitely bulkier, Tirtouga can definitely get worn down over time, especially by volt-turn (volt switchers mainly), and volt-turn is one of the biggest archetypes in the meta atm.

SORRY FOR ALL THE WORDS

 

[Svalkenaeres]

I tested in the past frog mons like Treecko, Cyndaquil, Mankey, Azurill (Some are ranked atm) ... So I disagree with some things.

Azurill D Rank :

Azurill is such an underrated mon. I used Azurill sometimes, and he was quite good. Yeah, Bunnelby I know. But he has some niches :

- Knock Off.
- Better Typing.
- Better Bulk (50/40/40)

Bulky evio a decent set (LO trick room is ridiculous). I think that he could be used for some reasons. I used him with a Frog Rank Team (1458 elo in August) and he worked.
It's only a D tbh. But I think frog rank is unfair.

Joltik D Rank :

Decent bulk, decent defensive type, Giga Drain allows it to beat Chinchou, Volt Switch, a priority...
He is a good check to Fletch too. He has just a terrible weakness rock and a weird movepool.
"Yeah, you're right, but everyone should take a Chinchou and no that cute spider".
That's true, but a lot of D-Mons are like that. I just want to say that Joltik isn't unplayable. This is an interesting pivot.
Look at his awesome cuteness pls.

 

[Pancham]

Completely "thirding," the drop of Tirtouga from A+ rank to A.

TRUE versatility means that a pokemon can use another move in it's arsenal to get around a check/counter, while not cutting a lot, if any viability away from the pokemon.

Even Fletchling, one pokemon that Tirtouga "counters," can be muscled past with it's DIVERSITY, as Fletchling can go mixed and utilize a HPGrass.

You completely contradicted yourself here. You say a pokemon is versatile if they can use a move, or different set, without cutting away its viability, yet Mixed Fletchling using Hidden Power Grass does exactly that.

Tirtouga is versatile because it can use two different sets that fill two different archetypes, and is one of, if not the, best mons in said archetype. Tirtouga is easily one of the best Shell Smashers in the tier, and while it is true that it has problems with Fighting-types that have priority, SD Pawniard suffers from the exact same checks. Defensive Tirtouga is easily one of the best Stealth Rocks users that also has Knock Off, only facing competiton from Pawniard and, to a lesser extent, Sandshrew at this role, but differentiates itself using the ever-so-annoying Scald to burn common switch-ins (Timburr?).

Just saying, but SS Tirt can use Knock Off to remove the eviolites of switch-ins, much like Timburr, before setting up a Shell Smash. Likewise, it can use Earthquake to get past checks like Chinchou and Croagunk, or even use Aqua Jet to get past checks that use Sucker Punch to dispose of it. Versatility, you say?

 

[Rowan]

tbh, i've barely seen tirtouga recently: is this because it isn't good or have people just stopped using it? tbh, the eviolite set has no recovery, so it's still easy to wear down. the shell smash set seems to have fallen out of favour with the rise of grass types, along with timburr/gunk/mienfoo/pancham all giving it trouble. I can see it moving down to mid A