Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk III

[Frosty]

TBH I find it absurd (no I am not exagerating) that people complain that mons that don't get Heavy/Light Metal don't have the respective altered weight on the NDA. There are 10 pokemon with either Light or Heavy Metal, which mean that you will need to do calcs for 711 pokemon. And I assure you, from the begining to the end of ASB this situation won't happen 711 times, so, in the end, you are wasting your time, doing more work now than the work you would avoid later. Let the people skill swapping/tracing/whatever Light/Heavy Metal do the calcs. They are interested in seeing those numbers and shouldn't be lazy, not you.


But that is not what I want to talk about. I want to discuss forfeiting. To put it blunt, I find it ridiculous that I need to play the match to the finish even when I am sure I will lose or I won't get counters. Take a Gym Match for example. If I am challenging a Gym and half-way through I am positive I will lose, I should be able to just forfeit, stop wasting my time and my opponents time and still get counters for what I did, instead of dragging on a battle I have no interest in anymore.

Sure, there is the potential for abuse, but that can be worked around with rules and all. I just feel that we must do something to allow forfeiting and make it not mean instaDQ (aka you lose all counters). Battles are time-consuming enough as it is. Forcing people to play it to the end only adds to that.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

It does take away the possibility of the thrilling comeback (I.e. Dragon equals vs apps)

Also float stone metagross is kinda cool!

 

[Mulan15262]

How about making a forfeit give out awards like a DQ, only both players get rewards? This makes it harder to abuse while still giving out rewards to the forfeiting player.

 

[Elevator Music]

Dunno if I should put this in a new thread. I've been working on updating the CAP learnsets, I've finished all the Gen 4 CAPs. If people could look them over for accuracy that'd be great.

Just as a note, I edited the Gen 6 tutors to include Focus Punch/Shock Wave/Water Pulse if the Pokemon got it any other way. Also, Colossoil was missing Hyper Beam for Gen 5 and Gen 6, so I added it in for those (there are a couple other moves like that for various CAPs, and I left notes in the spreadsheet as such).

Comments/questions/feedback welcome.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gNDmnvcmZorweSr2b_XXukMKL0OKD35F_JXh7je-ocA/edit?usp=sharing
(changed the link)

 

[Chinchou111]

Proposal to give the Levitate command to Mega Charizard X, Mega Gyarados, and Mega Altaria. All three of them can very clearly fly, as all 3 are shown flying in their in-game models, or at the very least they are levitating. Additionally, they evolve from flying-types and the former 2 can participate in sky battles (M-Alt can't because Sky Battles don't exist in ORAS and her data isnt in XY)

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

Dunno if I should put this in a new thread. I've been working on updating the CAP learnsets, I've finished all the Gen 4 CAPs. If people could look them over for accuracy that'd be great.

Just as a note, I edited the Gen 6 tutors to include Focus Punch/Shock Wave/Water Pulse if the Pokemon got it any other way. Also, Colossoil was missing Hyper Beam for Gen 5 and Gen 6, so I added it in for those (there are a couple other moves like that for various CAPs, and I left notes in the spreadsheet as such).

Comments/questions/feedback welcome.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1o8t5cXbbvCYqwj3BDJ_95Hz3C7jRNKAiDw5Tv29XxI8/edit?usp=sharing

Emma, this is neat. It saves us a lot of time looking for moves to choose for the CAP mons. It also would help the Approvers a lot and looks so clean and organized. I especially like the move ordering on the left side and the Cheapest Method to obtain the move on the right. Thank you.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Hey can we clarify who sends out first when something uses U-Turn the round it KOes something in a Switch = OK match? In-game it is U-turner sends out other sends out U-turner orders other orders but some matches say Other player sends out before U-turner.

I think the latter was the ruling but it was never clarified. Also it would be interesting to discuss this. Anyone? :|

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

As far as I know latter is the ruling to keep in line with second to send out is first to order convention. Sending out second AND ordering second is an incredible advantage simply for being killed in a round of uturn.

Same logic wrt send outs on double kos for the record

 

[Its_A_Random]

I guess with U-turn et al it is probably for the best given ASB's nature haha.

Moving on and out of curiosity, who changed the threshold of Sluggish from the generation changes (or even approved it)? In the old DAT the wording was cannot use moves with Base Energy cost greater than 5 and now it is less than 6 and the same for non-attacking moves being formerly greater than 8 and now less than 9. Before decimalised EC this was the same thing but now it is kinda relevant. This seems like a real minor issue but when you have decimalised energy for WC-based moves...

This is probably me just whining about how people who did the handbook changed wordings w/o realising it also changes the meaning and rule but yeah. I am not necessarily asking to revert either but I do not think the change was approved. There is an important match that this affects however so... -.-'

 

[Frosty]

The following topics have floated around here and gained some support:

1) Allow Chill on Choice items
2) Smoke Ball
3) Allow Softboiled (Pass)
4) Forfeit
5) Give Mega CharX, Mega Gyara and Mega Altaria the Levitate Command
6) U-Turns and Double KOs
7) Sluggish on -6 En instead of +5 En.


I am tempted to go as follows.

- Send 1, 2, 3 and 4 to discussion
- Make 5 happen by Fiating and all (It has good logic and I don't feel it is important enough to warrant debate and discussion and voting from the council...unless you want to discussing the command as a whole).
- Regarding 6 include a "if both players need to send out pokemon at the same time, regardless the reason, the player that orders last sends out first and vice-versa" ruling on the handbook. It is a pretty old ruling and well-accepted given the logic of the system. Just a matter of writing it down.
- Revert Sluggish to "can't use moves with more than 5 energy" as there weren't any official change on that matter and IAR has a point when he says that decimals are a thing.


I will create the discussions and leave the three fiating or whatever-I-should-call-it here in case anyone insists on wanting a discussion (or agrees with me...in that case just hit the like button).

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Support for 1 and 3 without discussion

 

[Avnomke]

Yeah, I don't see much potential for discussion for 1 and 3.

 

[deadfox081]

I would also agree that 1 and 3 can probably just happen

 

[Geodude6]

As would I.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I think we've got enough agreement guys.

edit: likes people, likes

 

[Frosty]

Alright...sooo

1) Done as soon as someone edits in the NDA
3) I am actually worried about the boost it will give to Togekiss (I see what you did there <_<), as it didn't have any other means to pass healing to other mons. To be more specific the mons boosted by it are Clefable and Togekiss, and both already have a fuckton of tricks to play with (while with milk drink, you are given uses to the otherwise "useless", as far as raids and tlrs go, Gogoat and Miltank). I am not sure if this is needed or a good measure for balance, that is why I feel more discussion is needed with those pokemon in mind. Here or in a separate thread. If the consensus stays then i suppose we can do this eventually.
5) Done as soon as someone edits in the NDA
6) By the time you check the handbook there should be a rule about that [DONE].
7) By the time you check the handbook there should be a rule about that [DONE].

Discussions for Smoke Ball and Forfeiting will be done within the next hour.

 

[Its_A_Random]

3) I am actually worried about the boost it will give to Togekiss (I see what you did there <_<), as it didn't have any other means to pass healing to other mons. To be more specific the mons boosted by it are Clefable and Togekiss, and both already have a fuckton of tricks to play with (while with milk drink, you are given uses to the otherwise "useless", as far as raids and tlrs go, Gogoat and Miltank). I am not sure if this is needed or a good measure for balance, that is why I feel more discussion is needed with those pokemon in mind. Here or in a separate thread. If the consensus stays then i suppose we can do this eventually.

Factual Error: Clefable can already heal pass given it gained Heal Pulse as an Egg Move in Gen VI, so this is only relevant for Togekiss (and Mew but Mew is irrelevant in ASB). Also does it really matter how many tricks these mons already have?

Also TLR et al should not be considered highly for policy decisions like this and we should keep the scope to normal ASB. In normal ASB, heal passing in multiples is a situational strategy that does not really have much of an impact on matches; the only viable reason to use it is to keep an important mon alive for longer while they pump out damage. Heal passing as a strategy is not that strong in general due to the situationalness of the strategy. The fact that they can heal the user as well does not matter since these Pokémon can already heal themselves with other moves anyway.

If we are going to do this then I recommend having a flat 14 EN Cost if passed to something else so as to bring it in line with Heal Pulse and allow said mons to be able to not movespam Heal Pulse in the highly unlikely situation that it arises. Flat 14 should also be applied to passed Milk Drink as well imho for similar reasons.

If you really had to extend it to TLR and Raids, then Togekiss is a suboptimal choice for TLR where the majority of encounters will love its presence; the only favourable released TLR for it being The Planet's Fury. Furthermore there are better choices for raids than Togekiss though it is a niche pick for some of the new raids. But let us not go there as those RP's as I said, really should not be in the scope of this discussion.

 

[Mowtom]

I would like to propose that we add "Self-KO moves" as an attack clause for substitutions that includes Selfdestruct, Explosion, Memento, Healing Wish, Final Gambit, Lunar Dance, and any others I'm forgetting.

 

[deadfox081]

Personally I have no issue giving as many mons are possible a way to heal in raids, but this is a totally biased opinion.

 

[Its_A_Random]

I would like to propose that we add "Self-KO moves" as an attack clause for substitutions that includes Selfdestruct, Explosion, Memento, Healing Wish, Final Gambit, Lunar Dance, and any others I'm forgetting.

I guess this is what KO Subs (you can KO sub in singles) are for but I get the intent behind this, e.g. to prevent opponent from suiciding. I do not see much of an issue with this.

In other news the Mega Evolution changes brought about only seven and a half months ago is finally in the handbook... Took us long enough to do something about it... -.-'

 

[Frosty]

TLRs and Raids are part of ASB so they should be considered. Sure, their weight is really small, but still should be considered.

What I want to emphasize is that this isn't just a flavor change. It is an extra boost to a specific and otherwise very good pokemon. While I see no actual problem in giving it that option, I will only pass it directly to implementation if the support the idea has received has considered the actual repercussions of that change, or at least knows them.

 

[Dogfish44]

TLR can adapt very quickly if we need it, and I don't believe I'm out of bounds in saying the same towards Raids.

Soft-Boiled should be able to pass due to the same reason that Milk Drink can be passed - both can be used outside of battle. A change towards consistency seems perfectly reasonable.

Also agreeing that Self-KO moves are perfectly sensible as an attack clause.

 

[TSRD]

So we've been having a running discussion in IRC over the use of Trace when ordering first:

It seems like the official ruling (as well as I can find out given conflicting answers I've received/observed) on this is "No, you cannot trace when sending out first." When asked why the only reasoning I've received (beyond that is just the way it works or Trace is "too good" otherwise) is that there is no opponent to Trace on send out bringing up the argument that switches happen chronologically. This led to a number of responses (that this reasoning is not consistent with the game's mechanics and so on) but also that this is not consistently upheld across Abilities in ASB in general. Shadow Tag allows counterswitching when the Tagmon is coming in but not out. If switches happened chronologically then it should work the other way around (this broke off into its own discussion on Trapping abilities which may or may not be added here later).

These are a few links on Shadow Tag I was requested to put with this post for reference (though whether they help much with my original issue, Trace, or moreso with the follow up Trapping discussion, I'll leave to the reader):
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/switch-ok-rulings.3482470/
[url]http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/switch-ok-rulings.3485112/[/URL]

Anyway, long story short. Why is Trace not allowed when sending out first? It seems an unnecessary and unintuitive drawback to the ability. If it is decided that this needs to be the case however I would recommend an explicit statement be added to Trace to inform people to this effect.

 

[Dogfish44]

The issue of ASB's chronological switches is valid (Although we really don't need to boost Trace any more, have you seen the mons who can use it?)

The issue can be put fairly simply;

• Abilities like Trace are immediately activated on send-out. This means if there's no opponent, then the ability is largely meaningless. This is explicitly stated.
• Trapping effects and abilities are constant from the start of the switch phase to the end. That is to say, if it's trapped at the Switch Phase Start, it's trapped at the Switch Phase End. The same applies for not being trapped (See Shadow Tag switch-ins)

I believe that this is, from a flavour standpoint, enough of a contradiction to warrant a re-examination. I'm also going to say that we should make sure that we factor in other abilities when we review this - Abilities like Intimidate are less explicit in how they work, and it is leading to a number of people being (justifiedly) irate.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

[17:01:19] -ASBot- Vice Grip - Normal | Physical | Adjacent Target | 6 BAP | 100% Acc | 4 EN Cost | -- Eff% | Contact: Yes | 0 Prio | Combo Type: Passive | Snatch: No | Magic Coat: No
[17:01:19] -ASBot- The user uses large pincers to grab and crush the opponent. Vice Grip can hold the opposing Pokemon in place for a short time. If combined with Crabhammer, the combination always scores a critical hit. If combined with Bite, "Fang" Moves, Crunch, Guillotine, or Sucker Punch, the target is unable to use contact attacks against the Pokemon from the time the attack hits through the cooldown phase. If combined with Bind, the damage per ...
[17:01:19] -ASBot- ... action of Bind doubles (x2).

This is complete bullshit and needs to be removed immediately