Ladder STABmons (the old one)

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While I do hope he stops I'm surprised he never brought up the fact that the only legitimate reason megabro wasn't banned the first time was that it countered diggers.

Moving on,
Kangaskhan @ Silk Scarf.
Scrappy
-Belly Drum
-Extreme Speed
-Earthquake
-Fire Punch

OHKO's all but hippo-esque bulk on non resists with Espeed, OHKO's aegislash with earthquake, has a chance to OHKO skarm with fire punch.
 
While I do hope he stops I'm surprised he never brought up the fact that the only legitimate reason megabro wasn't banned the first time was that it countered diggers.

Moving on,
Kangaskhan @ Silk Scarf.
Scrappy
-Belly Drum
-Extreme Speed
-Earthquake
-Fire Punch

OHKO's all but hippo-esque bulk on non resists with Espeed, OHKO's aegislash with earthquake, has a chance to OHKO skarm with fire punch.
I'd rather run Substitute / Milk Drink / Protect / Fake Out > Fire Punch because Extreme Speed 2HKOes Skarmory regardless so I don't see much of a point in it. Substitute shields from Chansey and status; Milk Drink for autorecovery; Protect for blocking FakeSpeed; Fake Out for pre-chip damage.
 

Kit Kasai

Love colored magic
While I do hope he stops I'm surprised he never brought up the fact that the only legitimate reason megabro wasn't banned the first time was that it countered diggers.

Moving on,
Kangaskhan @ Silk Scarf.
Scrappy
-Belly Drum
-Extreme Speed
-Earthquake
-Fire Punch

OHKO's all but hippo-esque bulk on non resists with Espeed, OHKO's aegislash with earthquake, has a chance to OHKO skarm with fire punch.
Pair with goth for stuff like quagsire and skarm and you can clear up a slot like unfix suggested :)
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
personally, drainpunch and espeed are my two of choice along with protect(as ive allready thrown out) it beats diggersby 1v1, which otherwise turns kanga into a liability until its dead(which it never will be if it sees kanga) and makes it infinitely harder to stop without quag.
 
personally, drainpunch and espeed are my two of choice along with protect(as ive allready thrown out) it beats diggersby 1v1, which otherwise turns kanga into a liability until its dead(which it never will be if it sees kanga) and makes it infinitely harder to stop without quag.
Except then aegislash(and most steel types) can hit it with KS to make it much less threatening. In the end its up to the trainer.
 
i didnt see a ban list so mega altaria holy s***. shell smash with espeed, boomburst. thats enough to get banned but also fake out, belly drum, double edge, EXPLOSION! spacial rend, DD, dragon tail, roost, soft boiled, recover, aeroblast, brave bird, dragon adsent, oblivion wing, air slash, and defog. those are just the insane ones
 
i didnt see a ban list so mega altaria holy s***. shell smash with espeed, boomburst. thats enough to get banned but also fake out, belly drum, double edge, EXPLOSION! spacial rend, DD, dragon tail, roost, soft boiled, recover, aeroblast, brave bird, dragon adsent, oblivion wing, air slash, and defog. those are just the insane ones
the op said:
+CLAUSES & BANS
  • Standard OU banlist, except:
    • Bans: Sylveon and Porygon-Z. Items: King's Rock, Razor Fang, Altarianite, Metagrossite, Lopunnite and Slowbronite.
    • Unbans: Darkrai, Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D, and Aegislash.
  • Sleep, OHKO, Species, Evasion, Moody, Swagger, Endless Battle, and Baton Pass clauses are in effect
  • Sketch is banned except on Smeargle
  • No Gen jumping types (An example would be Togekiss keeping its Normal typing from Gen 5.)
 
i didnt see a ban list
The first thing a user new to an OM should do when at the thread is look at the OP completely to be sure of all rules and bans, then, if something's unclear, ask about it. Just for future reference.

Also, would banning boomburst (and maybe techno blast) and unbanning PZ, Sylveon, and maltaria ever be considered?
 
Ugh.
We've gone over this before.
A long time ago.
It was right after the Sylveon/PZ suspect.
I don't have time to find all the posts and quote them so go look yourself. Anywhere from page 20 to 25 I think.
Short answer: No. We're not banning Boomburst.
 
I said that because he cherry picked the EVs to make Diggersby as bulky as Azumarill when the assumptions were not the same. When I say Azu has better bulk, I mean under the same conditions, i.e. 252 Atk / 252 Spe, Jolly / Adamant. And you can't tell me anyone uses those EVs purposefully because ... they want to match the bulk of Azumarill for no reason other than to sport the same bulk? Diggersby runs 252 Atk / Spe and either Jolly or Adamant. Rarely it opts for HP instead of Speed.

It's like saying "I can make Milotic as fast and strong as Keldeo with the right EV spread."

I wasn't trying to insult Ghoul King , rather I was exasperated with the strange positions taken up in the "debate."
I cherry picked it to illustrate that Diggersby has such a huge Speed advantage that arguing Azumarill can afford to invest in Speed raises the reverse argument that Diggersby can invest in bulk and still outspeed the speedy Azumarill while outbulking the speedy Azumarill. (And it still has higher Attack) So arguing that Azumarill is better at setup because it's bulky and can "afford" to invest in Speed is patently ludicrous -Diggersby can invest to beat it out in all areas at the same time. (Barring Special Attack, which neither cares about)

Which leaves basically typing and movepool, and I don't agree Azumarill has a superior typing for a Belly Drum sweeper, which is what has been discussed for the comparison point -it's not like you (or anybody else) is arguing that Azumarill should be setting up to do something entirely different, not even by rebuffing my notion that Azumarill is using Extreme Speed, such that Azumarill's access to Water and Fairy starts turning into a real asset -Water is overall inferior for supporting Normal than Ground is, and Fairy is... STAB for Azumarill, basically?

Yes it is a ridiculous EV set nobody would run -but it illustrates my point that typing is about the only thing Azumarill has over Diggersby. (Assuming Water/Fairy is better than Normal/Ground, which is debatable -by what standard, exactly? It's worse for a Belly Drum Extreme Speed sweeper, which is what we've been discussing) It would be a different story if we were talking about a bulky approach for Azumarill -Diggersby cannot hope to compete- but your insistence that Azumarill can "afford" to invest in Speed makes no sense if Diggersby can beat it out in every area at the same time when it does so. Not even getting into the fact that Kangaskhan beats Azumarill out in every stat except functional Attack, which STAB more than makes up for on Extreme Speed.

tl;dr version: no, speedy Azumarill is not bulkier or faster or harder hitting than Diggersby unless Diggersby lets it.

EDIT: In particular, the EVs mean I don't even need to show whether Diggersby will end up bulkier with high HP investment and no Defense/Special Defense investment than speedy Azumarill -it's a moot point if you really care about invalidating Azumarill with your Diggersby, because you can replicate/go above all relevant stats.
 
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Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
I cherry picked it to illustrate that Diggersby has such a huge Speed advantage that arguing Azumarill can afford to invest in Speed raises the reverse argument that Diggersby can invest in bulk and still outspeed the speedy Azumarill while outbulking the speedy Azumarill. (And it still has higher Attack) So arguing that Azumarill is better at setup because it's bulky and can "afford" to invest in Speed is patently ludicrous -Diggersby can invest to beat it out in all areas at the same time. (Barring Special Attack, which neither cares about)

Which leaves basically typing and movepool, and I don't agree Azumarill has a superior typing for a Belly Drum sweeper, which is what has been discussed for the comparison point -it's not like you (or anybody else) is arguing that Azumarill should be setting up to do something entirely different, not even by rebuffing my notion that Azumarill is using Extreme Speed, such that Azumarill's access to Water and Fairy starts turning into a real asset -Water is overall inferior for supporting Normal than Ground is, and Fairy is... STAB for Azumarill, basically?

Yes it is a ridiculous EV set nobody would run -but it illustrates my point that typing is about the only thing Azumarill has over Diggersby. (Assuming Water/Fairy is better than Normal/Ground, which is debatable -by what standard, exactly? It's worse for a Belly Drum Extreme Speed sweeper, which is what we've been discussing) It would be a different story if we were talking about a bulky approach for Azumarill -Diggersby cannot hope to compete- but your insistence that Azumarill can "afford" to invest in Speed makes no sense if Diggersby can beat it out in every area at the same time when it does so. Not even getting into the fact that Kangaskhan beats Azumarill out in every stat except functional Attack, which STAB more than makes up for on Extreme Speed.

tl;dr version: no, speedy Azumarill is not bulkier or faster or harder hitting than Diggersby unless Diggersby lets it.

EDIT: In particular, the EVs mean I don't even need to show whether Diggersby will end up bulkier with high HP investment and no Defense/Special Defense investment than speedy Azumarill -it's a moot point if you really care about invalidating Azumarill with your Diggersby, because you can replicate/go above all relevant stats.
well you have very well proven your point that sableye invests in 252 speed, and azu cannot possibly outspeed it without a jolly nature. you know...the entire basis this argument started on...? what the heck are you even on about right now?
sableye has no business investing in speed, and all azu needs is 44 speed to scare off sables investing in speed SOLELY to stop sableye from speed tieing, seriously, no sableye should be speed creeping because it outspeeds the meta regardless and opposing sableye cannot afford to run taunt in their allready limited movepool, and enless you want sable to have the durability of a wet noodle, investing in speed is a terrible idea. especially when azu is safe to go up to 128 speed and not risk anything dramatic bulk wise(i think the ou belly drum is like..72 speed which is probably the better number). what the hell are you even talking about right now? obviously diggersby is stronger and faster then azu, and obviously it wins 1v1 vs azu. you are nitpicking because you are acting as if eevee said "azu needs 252 speed in order to be relevant, and azu does its role better then diggersby" which no, it just needs enough to outspeed sableye (which bdrum sets do regardless) to fufill the niche you are arguing about. you nitpicked for no good reason.
 
Lcass4919
My argument is that the niche you are describing is better filled by the Scrappys, and for every other purpose Azumarill is very much bad Diggersby. The Eevee General also explicitly stated that Azumarill should be running either max Speed Jolly (Which Diggersby can invalidate at a minor cost) or running max bulk. (Which Diggersby does not in fact invalidate, but I can't imagine a useful role for it to actually fill in STABmons) I don't even have to find out whether there's anything of relevance that max Speed Azumarill outspeeds that no Speed Diggersby doesn't outside of said no Speed Diggersby to make this statement.

----

So hey I'm gonna talk about the thing I was going to talk about in the first place: those OP setup sweepers that would overrun the tier if Diggersby didn't exist, starting with...


the monstrous Cinccino!

115 Speed means Cinccino doesn't need Shell Smash to outrun most of the most important things in the tier, so Belly Drum is probably the way to go for murdering everything everywhere. First, let's talk about the Unaware Pokemon.

252 Atk Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 360-440 (91.3 - 111.6%) -- approx. 81.3% chance to OHKO

Run Adamant for a 100% chance of a OHKO, but hey, 81.3% chance of a OHKO means Quagsire is no check, let alone a counter, to a rampaging Cinccino.

252 Atk Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 150-180 (38 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah a Physically Defensive Clefable is better off, especially since A: Tail Slap can miss and B: a Belly Drum rampager is probably running Extreme Speed over Tail Slap, for all that Tail Slap does more than 50% more damage. (When it hits) Of course, Cinccino can run Gunk Shot to do

252 Atk Cinccino Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

... disappointing damage. Still a chance of a 2HKO, with it being even better with Adamant of course... but also only 80% accuracy. There's also 4MSS to consider -are you dumping Rock Blast for Gunk Shot? Bullet Seed? The boosting move that's the entire basis of a setup sweeper? Or your Normal STAB, which offers your best general power?

Of course, who says Physically Defensive Clefable is even optimal or standard? Let's assume it's irrelevant, and just look at all the other walls Cinccino effortlessly breaks off a Belly Drum!

+6 252 Atk Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 380-450 (125 - 148%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Of course this only works if you manage to smack Sableye in the face on the way in, but this is promising.

+6 252 Atk Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 220-260 (62.5 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Pretty vicious -though I'm not sure why Cinccino is actually running Tail Slap myself. How about Extreme Speed?

+6 252 Atk Cinccino Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 141-166 (40 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

... not so good, especially since Ferrothorn can actually 2HKO back with Power Whip -by which I mean it can OHKO back if you've Belly Drummed, with a low roll being handled by Iron Barbs. (Uninvested Ferrothorn, mind) Gyro Ball does even better damage more reliably, though there's the question of how many offensive moves a Ferrothorn is actually running, with how many cool things Grass and Steel offer.

Well, how about Skarmory?

+6 252 Atk Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 255-300 (76.3 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

OW. Not enough to prevent Skarmory from revenge-switching in and doing something horrible to you, but makes a manual switch in very risky, since even Bullet Seed can roll high enough for Rock Blast to become a OHKO. (Assuming it doesn't miss)

Heatran? Well, Rock Blast is a OHKO if it isn't Physically Defensive in specific off a Belly Drum, and Cinccino outspeeds and doesn't care about King's Shield...

Do people run Mega Aggron? Well, let's look at it anyway, because Steel typing.

+6 252 Atk Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Mega Aggron: 135-160 (39.2 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Yeah, if Mega Aggron can get in, it laughs in Cinccino's face. Might be tricky to switch in though, since regular Aggron takes real damage from Bullet Seed.

Aegislash?

+6 252 Atk Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 155-185 (47.8 - 57%) -- approx. 23.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ouch. Probably not good enough to prevent Aegislash from dealing with Cinccino cleanly (Just King's Shield once for Leftovers healing and then OHKO with Iron Head/Flash Cannon/Sacred Sword), though hey Cinccino does get 4MSS Knock Off, which does

+6 252 Atk Cinccino Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 478-564 (147.5 - 174%) -- guaranteed OHKO

owwwwwwww

a clean OHKO. So Cinccino can definitely surprise you with a KO where you weren't expecting one.

+6 252 Atk Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Mega Scizor: 305-360 (88.9 - 104.9%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to OHKO

Mega Scizor is iffy, though conversely

144+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cinccino: 169-199 (58 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

is very impressive damage.

How about... Lucario? No, seriously.

+6 252 Atk Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario: 295-345 (104.9 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

No bulk Lucario is screwed if it gets hit, but

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cinccino: 250-296 (85.9 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

effortlessly destroys a setup Cinccino before it moves with Mach Punch. Nice.

Bronzong can be summarized like this: Knock Off cleanly destroys it, everything else does less than 50% damage.

Magnezone is interesting.

+6 252 Atk Cinccino Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 302-356 (93.2 - 109.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

but conversely

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cinccino: 285-336 (97.9 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

yeah.

So basically Cinccino is stuck between a rock and a hard place if it wants to setup: it needs all of STAB (Preferably Extreme Speed to push past priority), Bullet Seed (or else Unaware Quagsire effortlessly walls it), Rock Blast (Or else stuff like Mega Scizor laughs and kills it) Knock Off and the Belly Drum or Shell Smash that's the whole point of it. It also has the problem that it's so fragile that basically any Fighting type anyone is going to use can Mach Punch it if it does setup, and its offense is pretty mediocre without setup. In general priority presents a real problem for it, honestly. 75/60/60 defenses aren't doing it any favors.

Hey, how about that Diggersby?

252 Atk Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 280-330 (89.7 - 105.7%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO

... ow. This makes it fairly dangerous to switch in on Cinccino, even before considering the possibility of a surprise Bander -instead of coming in on a Belly Drum or Shell Smash you might switch in on Bullet Seed and suffer egregious damage, possibly even lethal!

Conversely,

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cinccino: 127-151 (43.6 - 51.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO

is the best Diggersby does on Fake Out before items, and even if it's carrying a Life Orb it's only

252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cinccino: 165-196 (56.7 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

which means Sitrus Belly Drum Cinccino will actually survive the hit (And usually Shell Smash will survive too, though it's a 6.3% chance of going down -assuming no Focus Sash, mind) and then there's the consideration that Cinccino is actually faster than Diggersby and of course gets its own Extreme Speed, which does

252 Atk Cinccino Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 132-156 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

a lot to Diggersby before boosting. A gutsy Cinccino player might Bullet Seed Diggersby on the way in, accept a Fake Out (Or surprise! It's got Protect over a setup move!) and then Diggersby needs to switch out or be finished off by a faster Extreme Speed -and a Belly Drum Sitrus Berry variant can still do the same thing, but ready to do severe damage to whatever switches in place of Diggersby after the Fake Out.

Braviary is another good FakeSpeeder, but Rock Blast, er

252 Atk Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Braviary: 280-340 (82.1 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

does really good damage to it with no stat-ups at all, so there's risk there.

Ursaring is better off, and is probably one of the better FakeSpeeders for countering Cinccino.

252 Atk Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ursaring: 140-170 (43.6 - 52.9%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after burn damage

is not really adequate, and replacing Rock Blast/Bullet Seed with Tail Slap in the calc doesn't push it into OHKO territory.

So yeah, Cinccino is pretty cool. Hates priority of any kind, especially Fake Out, but pretty cool Pokemon. 4MSS though.


Next time: probably another Normal type I dunno. Belly Drum Milk Drink Guts Ursaring could be fun/funny to cover.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Other Metas Mobile Research Laboratory
What is this? It's a mini-project to spark discussion within the subject's thread instead of siphoning it off into a new thread somewhere else. Each week or so I'll post a new topic in a metagame or pet mod. Topics will vary from thread to thread, so make sure to check out each one to see if it's something you want to participate in. Plus, if it dies, at least there isn't an empty thread cluttering up the subforum.

Week 1 - STABmons
Topic -
and its role in the metagame
At a glance
Weaknesses -

Resistances -

Super effective against -

Not very effective against -


Psychic Pokemon in STABmons


Psychic moves in STABmons
Psystrike - special - 10 - 100 - 100%, Inflicts damage based on the target's Defense, not Special Defense.
Stored Power - special - 10 - 20 - 100%, Power is higher the more the user's stats have been raised, to a maximum of 31×.
Heart Swap - status - 10 — —, User and target swap stat changes.
Psycho Boost - special - 5 - 140 - 90%, Lowers the user's Special Attack by two stages after inflicting damage.
Future Sight - special - 10 - 120 - 100%, Hits the target two turns later.
Lunar Dance - status - 10 — —, User faints, and its replacement is fully healed.
Mirror Coat - special - 20 - * - 100%, -5 priority, Inflicts twice the damage the user received from the last special hit it took.
Magic Coat - status - 15 — —, +4 priority, Reflects back the first effect move used on the user this turn.
Luster Purge - special - 5 - 70 - 100%, Has a 50% chance to lower the target's Special Defense by one stage.
Cosmic Power - status - 20 — —, Raises the user's Defense and Special Defense by one stage.

Help me fill in the rest!

Questions

  • What other moves are useful that need to be added? What underrated moves do we often forget about?
  • What are the roles of the Pokemon listed?
  • What Pokemon are missing?
  • In the larger context of the metagame, where does Psychic add value to a team and where does it create problems?
  • If you had to rank Psychic with the other types in STABmons, would it be high, mid-level, or low in its utility?
  • Do Psychic-type Pokemon gain a lot in STABmons or do they usually already have the tools they need at their disposal?
I'll add things brought up by you as necessary to complete our research. Just like anywhere else in the forums, contributing well thought out ideas can lead to rewards. I'll keep track of the best contributors throughout this project, so stay consistent!
 
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Psystrike is a nice buff over Psyshock, but Celebi is the only fully evolved Psychic type that doesn't get Psyshock in the first place, so it's actually only notable as "well, if I was running Psyshock anyway, here's a 25% damage increase".

If you had to rank Psychic with the other types in STABmons, would it be high, mid-level, or low in its utility?
Psychic is in a weird place in STABmons. Raw offense gains are pretty mediocre, particularly for Physical Psychic types, but it has such an enormous list of support moves Psychic Pokemon represent a rare case of genuine unpredictability -most types in STABmons tend to be fairly straightforward in what you're gonna see. Physical Fire types get Flare Blitz/V-Create for overwhelming offense, Special Fire types run Blue Flare, and support Fire types don't exist/already had Will O Wisp anyway. (Castform-Sun is the only Fire type in the entire game that doesn't get Will O Wisp) Whereas Psychic types can be setting Trick Room, Power Tricking to become an unexpected Physical attacker, Calm Mind or Cosmic Power+Stored Power for ungodly offense, Gravity for Ground support (It's too bad Claydoll is the only Psychic/Ground type, and it has Levitate itself, so it's not thrilled), Guard Split/Power Split to steal stats, Heal Block to mess with stall, Heart Swap to steal stat boosts, Imprison to just lock up just about anything (Gothitelle in particular can abuse this), Lunar Dance as a suicide heal out of nowhere, Magic Coat means any Psychic type has the potential to reflect your hazards surprise, Psycho Shift to clear their own status (While giving it to you), dual screens on literally any Psychic type, Choice Scarf Trick type shenanigans to ruin Chansey forever, and the never-used Wonder Room to reveal that your switched-in Skarmory is about to die to Mega Medicham. There's also potential for obnoxiousness from Meloetta or Jirachi running Luster Purge to just melt your defenses 100% reliability with an OK-strength attack.

So on the whole I tend to rank Psychic as a very low-tier type in STABmons -nobody ever runs Psycho Boost, so unless you're looking at Stored Power in specific Psychic types (Again, especially the Physical ones) get very little help in their straight offenses- and yet it's the one type I'm most wary of any given instance until I've got a handle on what that Pokemon is trying to do. Yeah, most people don't run... any... of the myriad Status tools outside of Calm Mind and Cosmic Power, but not only does Psychic have a ton of them, but they're heavily weighted toward completing messing up your plans -with zero warning beyond "hey that's a Psychic type".

Or put another way

straight offense C-

surprise mindscrew S-rank

Do Psychic-type Pokemon gain a lot in STABmons or do they usually already have the tools they need at their disposal?
Most Psychic types already get Calm Mind and Psyshock, so the former at all and the general utility (Bypass Special walls) of the latter are already existent. But in terms of being able to do an enormous array of things, with little ability to predict them ahead of time? Yeah, Psychic types get a ton out of STABmons.

In the larger context of the metagame, where does Psychic add value to a team and where does it create problems?
I don't understand the latter part of the question.
 
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Reactions: EV
Reuniclus @ leftovers
Magic Guard
-recover
-heal block
-psycho shift
-knock off

Neat stallbreaker

Reuniclus @ Flame Orb
Magic Guard
-psycho shift
-reflect
-light screen/psycho boost
-knock off

Gimmick wall

Sigilyph @ filler
Magic Guard
-defog
-heart swap
-oblivion wing
-psystrike/drill peck/psycho shift

Perfect hazard clearer.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
I don't understand the latter part of the question.
If you're using a Psychic-type Pokemon to gain a move it didn't already learn that you need for your team, does running that Pokemon create any vulnerabilities due to its Psychic typing? This question is kind of baited toward Pursuit, but also toward teambuilding in general. Is there risk associated with Psychic? Is it easy to fit onto a standard team?
 
Well, I don't think Pursuit is that big of an issue for Psychics in STABmons per se -if you fear Pursuit, there's multiple viable Psychic types that are paired with a resistant type (Mega Medicham, Mega Gallade, Mega Gardevoir, more debatably Mr. Mime and Malamar) or are sufficiently tanky Pursuit isn't the primary problem. (Mega Slowbro, regular Slowbro with Regenerator, Reuniclus with Regenerator, probably others) In fact, actually laying out the list, I think the main problem is that the Psychic types that aren't afraid of Dark and are worth using are heavily weighted toward eating a Mega slot.

Psychic actually has a weird meta-position. It's weak to Ghost, which gets almost nothing out of STABmons. It's weak to Dark, which is an amazing STABmons type, but there are very few cases of a Dark type really caring about what it's gained in regards to fighting Psychic types, oddly enough. (Sucker Punch Tyranitar being one notable exception) It's weak to Bug, which gets amazing setup moves for Special, but all Special Bugs suck (Yes even Yanmega) and basically any good Physical Bug hasn't hugely benefited from STABmons. (There's no signature Physical Bug move to blow Megahorn out of the water or anything, with the closest being Attack Order replacing X-Scissor cleanly) Conversely it resists only itself and Fighting, but they both get some amazing benefits out of STABmons, so that's surprisingly valuable.

So basically I feel Psychic types are fairly easy to fit into a team -I've been guilty of putting two or even three Psychic types onto a team, and only adjusted it down to a more sane number after actual matches got half my team killed by a single Mega Tyranitar or some such. And even then, it's a lot harder to punish Psychic types than you might think, in STABmons, with their biggest flaw probably being that the majority of them have weak Defense and are thus handily destroyed by Extreme Speed/FakeSpeed. But then there's those Psychic types that instead have very high defenses, so it's more a matter of being unable to select for both Speed and durability than it is an intrinsic weakness of the Psychic type. (Unlike the Ghost type, where every Ghost that has good/great Defense has such godawful HP that the Defense just makes them not complete crap in the durability department)

Psychic also has a lot of room for "growth" as new Pokemon get added -when Game Freak finally gets around to adding a Special-oriented Psychic/Fighting type (Mega Mewtwo X doesn't count, both because it isn't and because it's Uber) that'll be a fantastic piece right there for so many reasons, starting from access to Secret Sword and continuing on to being able to combine Gravity with STAB Focus Blast and having competent Special priority alongside real power and just being really great all around. Whereas Dragons are only really going to get better by virtue of new Dragon moves being added -and going by Game Freak's existing trends, any added Dragon moves will be gifted to basically every Dragon that would want it anyway, like is the case already, so it won't be a STABmons-specific thing in all likelihood. (Garchomp and Kyurem-Black are some of the only Physically oriented Dragons that don't get Dragon Dance, the Dragons that want Draco Meteor aren't given it by STABmons, etc)
 

canno

formerly The Reptile
  • What other moves are useful that need to be added? What underrated moves do we often forget about?
There's Trick, although most of the Psychic-types already get Trick. There are a few examples though, like Delphox and Exeggutor.
  • What are the roles of the Pokemon listed?
Espeon's main rule in the meta is being a legend obviously. Seriously though, this was the main Gen 5 set-up sweeper, and it was clear to see why. Strong coverage with Judgement+Plate and Psystrike to break off the blobs, not to mention all of the other Normal-type goodies like Sweet Kiss and, more importantly, Shell Smash. Magic Bounce is the icing on the cake, stopping Prankstermon like Sableye from messing with it. In Gen 5 it was mainly Dark Voiding and T-Waving, as Topsy-Turvy didn't exist. It also couldn't be emergency phazed or even Taunted. It was great. Now its not as legendary, as the Fakespeed became much better (turning from Ursaring to Diggersby), but it is still very powerful. Tospy-Turvy no longer stops it, although it needs to watch out for Parting Shot essentially whirlinding it out. Not only that, but it faces competition from Meloetta, which has seemed to taked over its place as the special smasher. Espeon lacks the insanly powerful Boomburst has and the usefulness of its typing. Speaking of Meloetta, it has the same role as Espeon. However, unlike Espeon its not really a one-trick pony (I lie, Espeon had other decent sets). Thanks to its good bulk it can run a really neat bulky set. Overall Meloetta is a really good mon in this meta.

I can't speak much about the Lati's, as I haven't seen them / played with them, but I imagine they're still great Defoggers. In fact, I can't talk about most of these mons for the same reason. Slowbro, however, is really good. Mega Slowbro is also really good as one of the few Diggersby checks. It can run a good Cosmic Power set thanks to its inability to be critted.
  • What Pokemon are missing?
I'd put Meowstic maybe due to its access to priority Trick, Screens, and Heart Swap. Gardevoir is also missing, which is upsetting as it's a pretty good mon. Geomancy has ran out of favor but it is a generally good mon still. Same with Gallade - it didn't gain much but its a decent mon. There's also no Goth, which is absolutely offensive imho. Goth is a very good trapper in this meta and does really well. It completely destroys Stall in some cases. Finally there's Mew. Mew is still a decent mon with its decent Stall breaking set.
  • In the larger context of the metagame, where does Psychic add value to a team and where does it create problems?
Not much really. I guess a weakness to TTar and Bisharp is bad, as these are some good mons. I can't think of a general type problem - only with specific mons having weaknesses.
  • If you had to rank Psychic with the other types in STABmons, would it be high, mid-level, or low in its utility?
Probably mid-tier. Psychic itself is only ok, but it has access to some really good mons like Meloetta and Espeon. The type itself adds decent enough utility though - Psystrike is an excellent STAB. It has good power and allows the user to bypass special walls like Blissey all in one move. It also gives some good utility moves like Lunar Dance and Heart Swap.
  • Do Psychic-type Pokemon gain a lot in STABmons or do they usually already have the tools they need at their disposal?
They don't get too much out of it outside of a radical STAB move and some utility toys for those who haven't gotten them. It's not too much, but its definitely more than some types can say (I'm looking at you, Dragon)
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Good work on the research so far! Here's an unrelated post, though. (Points to anyone who can make it related!)

How to handle this thing:

PURE EVIL @ Power Herb
Ability: Super Luck
EVs: 16 HP / 252 Def / 240 SAtk
Nature: Modest
- Geomancy
- Oblivion Wing
- Moonblast
- Fire Blast / Aura Sphere / Substitute

I doubt that is the standard GeoKiss set, but I have a sneaking suspicion those are the EVs of the one that swept me 6-0 last night causing a tirade in a PM to unfixable (who will not repeat it) where I expressed my disdain for this monster.

Basically, those EVs allow it to live an Adamant Choice Band Scizor's Bullet Punch, the exact strategy I was using to check GeoKiss and which failed to OHKO. 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 16 HP / 252 Def Togekiss: 266-314 (84.4 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. The recovery from Oblivion Wing put it back near ~60% health, making a follow-up revenge kill impossible from anything else on my team. (No I did not have Diggersby.)

So what do you recommend? If I can't check GeoKiss--one of the biggest setup threats right now since it can reliably bop Sableye--with CB Scizor, what can I count on? Special Defensive Heatran can live +2 Aura Sphere, but then what? It has no recovery and hits Togekiss's special defense, which is buffed by +2 from Geomancy. Aegislash? Well if CB Scizor can't OHKO, I doubt Aegislash can, considering you'll need an investment to take Fire Blast but you'll also need Attack EVs. Chansey? Substitute blocks Transform (but not WW I guess.) Give me your sets!
 

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

old gregg for life
I'm not positive but maybe AV-Tran could tank a couple +2 aura spheres. Not where I can do calcs, but when I have used AV-Tran it is usually a pain in the ass to take out.


Also, if you are really desperate, Specially defensive Wob can trap it and take it out in most cases. At the least Wob could trap it and Heart Swap the GeoBoosts, cause ya'kno STAbMons.
 
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Kit Kasai

Love colored magic
You could always use this classic set (Courtesy of word, rip):

Slowking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Scald
- Psystrike
- Future Sight
- Mirror Coat

+2 240+ SpA Togekiss Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 195-231 (49.6 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Serves as a reliable check and can KO with Mirror Coat
 
wait your Sableye isn't running Topsy-Turvy is that what you're saying

You can use a ton of things to U-Turn or Volt Switch in Sableye for the Topsy-Turvy to permanently ruin Togekiss, since basically anything that lives will be outsped by Geomancy Togekiss and thus protect Sableye from being hit, you can always sacrifice something to get Sableye in for the Topsy-Turvy, you can switch in a FakeSpeeder to get in damage, Ice Shard off Kyurem-Black does

252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Shard vs. 16 HP / 252 Def Togekiss: 146-174 (46.3 - 55.2%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO

while Oblivion Wing does

+2 252+ SpA Togekiss Oblivion Wing vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 297-349 (75.9 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

meaning they can either OHKO you or heal while damaging you, either one of which means Kyurem-Black leaves Togekiss seriously injured and open to further priority, and this isn't even Banded or Life Orbed or anything (Notice Kyurem-Black will always survive a Life Orb recoil+Oblivion Wing hit if fresh) and there's also fast Scarfs to use, but it has to be 123 or higher base Speed to outspeed max Speed Togekiss with a Scarf (but no Speed is outsped by other max Speed base 80~ [maybe a little higher] carrying a Scarf) so it's either risky or you're looking at a very tiny pool. (A non-Speed invested Geomancy Togekiss will be outsped and OHKOed by Kyurem-Black running Icicle Crash, while a fully Speed invested one requires Scarfed Greninja or similar, in other words)

There's also the ability to Spore it with Whimsicott.
 
Ghoul King: First off, Sub nullifies Topsy. Second, Even at -2 The given spread will almost always 2HKO SpDef Sableye, and can OHKO, after rocks, the more relevant Def Sableye.
-2 240+ SpA Togekiss Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 224-266 (73.6 - 87.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-2 240+ SpA Togekiss Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 152-180 (50 - 59.2%) -- 69.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Anyways, the answer to your problems is the mighty SashKazam. Guaranteed to live at least 1 hit, it can steal the boosts away, and is even able to start its own counter-sweep. Worst case scenario, it can be used to break a sub slowly, ensuring that it isn't able to be at full health through oblivion wing, allowing Diggs to revenge it.

On a more relevant note, since that spread doesn't run any speed, it can actually be outpaced by scarfed things as slow as neutral-natured base 85s (may also be slightly lower), or unboosted positive base 130s. This means that things such as Scarfed Adamant Terrakion, or either form of Aerodactyl can effectively revenge it (both have to be head smash though, diamond storm won't cut it).

Honestly, the most effective response to most Togekiss isn't to revenge kill it, but to phaze it, essentially neutering it without 1 turn Geomancy.
 
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