Resource RU Viability Ranking: ORAS Edition

[RufflesPro]

I think Dugtrio should fall to at least B+.

First, Dugtrio didn't gain much from ORAS, having another prey (Mega Camerupt) is about it, well and his other prey, Dragalge, being more used now makes Dugtrio's ability to trap & revenge kill it more imporant. However, it lost a lot of things, Registeel is not as common as it used to be, while on the other hand, Cresselia and Bronzong are as popular as ever and Dugtrio can't do shit back. Gligar is seeing even more popularity so that's another minus. As for the new megas (Aside from Mega Camerupt), Dugtrio pretty much hates all of them, from Mega Sceptile, Mega Pidgeot and Mega Sharpedo (At +1) who can outspeed all day and OHKO to Mega Glalie and Mega Sharpedo (If at +0) who can just kill it with priority Ice Shard or Aqua Jet. Scarf Moltres is also a bane, while regular can just switch out of Rock Slide / Stone Edge.

The lack of power is also a thing, being unable to even 2HKO pokemon like Cobalion (Only has a small chance if banded) and Doublade is just really a shame. While Pangoro, Slowking, and Escalavier are roaming around RU and Dugtrio can barely 2HKO with a CB, meaning it most likely cannot revenge kill those Pokemons even if weakened.

 

[Punchshroom]

The bigger issue I see with Mega Pidgeot as a whole is that Moltres tends to be a much larger teambuilding threat in general. Teams that prepare for (most) Moltres variants tend to have little trouble facing Mega Pidgeot, but the vice versa is not true. There is also the fact that Moltres is much more versatile than Mega Pidgeot, being able to do Life Orb, Scarf, and SubToxic sets while EmPidge is pretty much just a one trick pony pigeon. Sure, Moltres is more SR weak, but Mega Pidgeot appreciates the spin support anyway, and if you're going to such lengths to preserve EmPidge's health, I can't help but feel Moltres can fit better in that slot anyway. I will admit EmPidge's current speed tier and spammable Flying STAB is pretty sick, but it still isn't S Rank worthy, compared to Moltres.

 

[aVocado]

I think Dugtrio should fall to at least B+.

First, Dugtrio didn't gain much from ORAS, having another prey (Mega Camerupt) is about it, well and his other prey, Dragalge, being more used now makes Dugtrio's ability to trap & revenge kill it more imporant. However, it lost a lot of things, Registeel is not as common as it used to be, while on the other hand, Cresselia and Bronzong are as popular as ever and Dugtrio can't do shit back. Gligar is seeing even more popularity so that's another minus. As for the new megas (Aside from Mega Camerupt), Dugtrio pretty much hates all of them, from Mega Sceptile, Mega Pidgeot and Mega Sharpedo (At +1) who can outspeed all day and OHKO to Mega Glalie and Mega Sharpedo (If at +0) who can just kill it with priority Ice Shard or Aqua Jet. Scarf Moltres is also a bane, while regular can just switch out of Rock Slide / Stone Edge.

The lack of power is also a thing, being unable to even 2HKO pokemon like Cobalion (Only has a small chance if banded) and Doublade is just really a shame. While Pangoro, Slowking, and Escalavier are roaming around RU and Dugtrio can barely 2HKO with a CB, meaning it most likely cannot revenge kill those Pokemons even if weakened.

I kind of agree with the drop but you've got the wrong reasons listed. First of all, Dugtrio trapping Houndoom, Dragalge, even Pangoro is huge. While it doesn't OHKO Pangoro, it still does a good amount that something else can pick it off later which is good considering Pangoro is surprisingly somewhat bulky even with all his wallbreaking prowess.

Also Dugtrio can definitely 2HKO Cobalion. I think what you meant to say is that it can't OHKO it. I'm not sure if it should drop or not, but it's certainly a bit less useful with all the new speedy megas, it still has its usefulness trapping what I mentioned and revenge killing in general.

 

[aVocado]

double posting :[

B > B-: Weezing is mostly used as a physical tank/wall that's supposed to put a stop to certain threats.. but well, there are already better Pokemon that do that, without giving as many free switches as Weezing does. Its attacking options are usually restricted to Sludge Bomb and Flamethrower. Because of that, it gives free switches to Mega Camerupt, Houndoom (somewhat), and most importantly, Dragalge. While the latter would usually hate a burn, it doesn't mind it /that/ much and can easily OHKO back in return. I generaly feel like Weezing is inferior to other physical tanks/walls, not to mention its disappointing special defense, and the fact that it can't even check some top physical threats all that well:

252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 144-171 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 160-190 (47.9 - 56.8%) -- 39.8% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (it's boned by SD Lum)

keep in mind it's recovery is limited to black sludge + pain split.

B- > B: I've been using this for a bit and it's actually pretty solid. What sold it for me was access to Defog, Heal Bell, reliable recovery, and a good defensive typing that allows it to check/counter some top megas, most notably Sceptile and Sharpedo (ice fang does 42.1 - 49.8%). I don't like the fact that it gives free switches to most fire types though. It can also switch into Pangoro but it has to be wary of Gunk Shot. Seismic Toss is an option for consistent damage but then you lose out on OHKOing Pangoro.

 

[EonX]

Dragalge: Hard not to agree with this move. If you lack Bronzong, Registeel, or Escavalier, you will either be losing a Pokemon or having something take incredible damage. And without a Fairy-type, there's almost 0 reason for Dragalge to not just drop a Draco. The difference between Dragalge and a lot of other wallbreakers is that it not only has a decent defensive typing, but it's also completely immune to Toxic, which is a common way for stall teams to wear down powerful wallbreakers. While Dragalge certainly can be beaten, you better make sure you have a way to beat it if you hope to not lose up to half of your team to this thing before you take it out. Agreeing with S rank due not only to its wallbreaking prowess, but also the defensive synergy it provides.

Mega Pidgeot: In a word, no. Mega Pidgeot is one of, if not, my favorite Megas in the tier. While this is partially due to me arguably being the first mainstay RU player to start using it, Mega Pidgeot also has a lot of strong qualities. Great Speed, spammable STAB, solid coverage, and reliable recovery to keep from being worn down easily all make Mega Pidgeot a very useful Pokemon. However, any team that's prepared for Moltres (in particular, Life Orb Moltres) is prepared for Mega Pidgeot, and then some. It certainly has a strong presence as kind of a go-between when it comes to Life Orb and Choice Scarf Moltres (not as fast as Scarf Moltres, but stronger. Not as strong as LO Moltres, but faster) It's certainly worthy of its current A+ ranking imo, but it's not good enough to even be considered for S rank as long as Moltres is around imo. Oh, and it sucks ass to not be able to dodge Stone Edge when that's sometimes your last gasp at victory.

Hitmontop: This mon kinda defines hazard control on Stall teams, which rarely want to run Defog support from Gligar or Golbat for obvious reasons. It's a fantastic check to Pangoro while also being a pretty decent soft check to Tyrantrum (just have a Fairy waiting out back to block Outrage) It spins reliably thanks to Foresight and can spread status with Toxic, helping to wear down the Flying-types (Moltres, Gligar, and Mega Pidgeot) that are immune to the Toxic Spikes that Hitmontop is often supported with. It needs Wish and cleric support, but happens to work fairly well with Aromatisse anyway. I think B rank is fine for it in the current meta. But please, for the love of Arceus, do not run Assault Vest on this thing. Foresight and Toxic are what help to make Hitmontop so damn solid rn.

 

[trc]

it's also one of the few answers stall has to mega sharpedo which is a huge nuisance for stall teams.

 

[Kevun]

Mega Pidgeot

Honestly, I can definitely see this be S-rank. Arguments that this thing shouldn't be S because of Moltres are honestly fundamentally flawed, and here's why. Mega Pidgeot shares almost the exact same counters as Moltres, an S-rank itself and known to have little counters. The is extremely different that if it had vastly different counters to begin with, but the viability of a different mon introduces or popularizes new counters. For example, take Delphox, who was already stopped hard by Slowking, known to be one of the best and only counters for it for a while. However, with the rising popularity of other Psychic-types, the number of Dark-types increased, which severely added on extra checks so it didn't seem so hard to stop anymore, and its viability decreased. The difference with Mega Pidgeot is that people wouldn't run things that stop it that they normally wouldn't have already. In some hypothetical situation where Moltres was not in the tier, the majority of the same common checks would be running around on every team, because Pidge would pretty much sweep without them (and Mega Pidgeot is definitely centralizing enough to warrant a check on every team.)

However, having competition for a team slot with Moltres is a solid argument. Still, Mega Pidgeot has quite a bit of advantages. The most obvious is that it retains both the wallbreaking ability of LO Moltres and the sweeping capability of Scarf to a significant degree. First of all, it 2HKOs almost every single common offensive mon, including even Meloetta after rocks. Secondly, and what really makes Pidgeot scary is that 30% confusion chance and its adequate coverage which allows it to muscle past a lot of its checks/counters on its own. It has very poor coverage options, but that really doesn't matter at all when you have literally the best possible type for a STAB and a 30% confuse chance. Take stuff like SpD Aromatisse, Golbat, Alomomola, and even AV Slowking, which are the most prevalent defensive responses to Pidgeot. All of them, while avoiding a 2HKO, are cleanly 3HKOed after rocks, meaning if you manage to land a confusion (confusion chance = scald burn chance) just once, chances are you will win. Registeel and Bronzong can come in on Hurricane, but can't switch into Heat Wave more than once. Furthermore, the most common offensive responses, Kabutops and Rhyperior, are destroyed by HP Grass. This limits its reliable common counters to solely Eelektross, Jolteon, and Lanturn. Also, this thing isn't easy to revenge kill as it outspeeds every unboosted mon in the tier bar Jolteon and Mega Sceptile, and the latter can't even KO from full. Compare this to Moltres. It is literally equally as devoid of fullproof counters, and basically requires teams to run an Electric-type or a niche mon like Regirock or Carbink. It cleans/revenge kills almost with equal efficiency and with greater consistency than Scarf Moltres (again, only missing out on scarfers, Jolteon, and Mega Sceptile), while being able to break past defensive checks by itself, and having the ability to outlast its counters (which all have no recovery on their own) thanks to Roost. I will admit that Molres is more versatile, but Mega Pidgeot is far more flexible, meaning it can easily adapt to different playstyles in the middle of a battle.

I might have missed something big in this post, but the way I see it now, I don't see many solid reasons why it shouldn't be S-rank aside from opportunity cost of running a mega, which keeps its usage low enough so its not entirely dominating.

 

[Swagodile]

I still say the opportunity cost is ultimately what should keep it out of S Rank.

While it's true that it's good, you can get the same coverage and almost the same power with Moltres, and still use M-Sharpedo or M-Sceptile. And Moltres isn't as one-dimensional as Mega Pidgeot is.

Now, if Sceptilite and Sharpedonite were to be banned, I would agree that Pidgeot should be S Rank.

But as it stands, the opportunity cost is too big to ignore.

 

[phantom]

Pangoro should move to A+. Pangoro singlehandedly invalidates slower teams due to its absurd level of power. You can't really run hardstall with Pangoro existing, unless of course you have something that's faster, can take any coverage move, and can KO Pangoro in return. This pool of Pokemon is typically limited to Golbat/Cresselia running lots of Speed creep or offensive Pokemon. In essence, Pangoro forces teams to shift into more of an offensive state, and even if your prediction "skills" are at their peak when using fullstall vs a Pangoro, Swords Dance Pangoro can pretty much 6-0 most stall teams with little to no support. Pangoro is also decent vs offense, while it's slow and lacks priority, it has the bulk to take almost any neutral hit at full health and can usually KO back. In particular, it can withstand a Crunch + Hydro Pump from Mega Sharpedo and heal a good chunk of its health back with Drain Punch.

 

[aVocado]

A to A-: Made this nom before but I'm making it again now as people have realized it's not as good as it used to be. There was a time where Doublade was centralizing and very good, especially as a counter to then-prominent sweepers such as non-Crunch Durant, SD Virizion, and SD Cobalion. Now is not that time. SD Cobalion is barely seen anymore as it was discovered to be the best Stealth Rock user offense has to use and Virizion's viability dropped in general. The newly introduced threats in ORAS also cause Doublade a lot of trouble. Pangoro, Mega Pidgeot, Mega Sharpedo, and Houndoom are 4 currently top-tier threats that Doublade really struggles against, and Pokemon such as Dragalge and Mega Sceptile, also two top-tier threats, that you would think Doublade could check can easily 2HKO with either Draco Meteor or Leaf Storm (Dragalge can 2HKO even with special drop, Sceptile is forced out) respectively, or HP Fire by either.

And to not sound like I'm underselling Doublade, I do acknowledge that it can potentially wall Cresselia, Glalie, and Slurpuff, but the latter two aren't enough to make it stay in A while there are direct answers to Doublade on pretty much any successful RU team right now.

 

[Molk]

Alrighty, updates made :).

Updates

Pangoro moved up to A+
Weezing moved down to B-
Togetic moved up to B
Hitmontop moved up to B
Dugtrio moved down to B+
Dragalge moved up to S

I'd like to see some more discussion on Doublade in particular, i'm not quite sold on moving that down yet tbh (same with moving Tyrantrum/Slurpuff/Pidgeot up).

 

[Swagodile]

Doublade cannot effectively use any item other than Eviolite, and it's vulnerable to Knock Off.

Its Special Defense is pitiful even with Eviolite, and No Guard does it no favors.

It's dependent on Shadow Sneak to pick off foes, and many of RU's top Pokemon are resistant or outright immune to its STAB.

It's a one-trick pony, and it's simply not as effective as it was during the days of Froslass Spikes/Shuckle Web HO.

 

[aVocado]

Doublade cannot effectively use any item other than Eviolite, and it's vulnerable to Knock Off.

Its Special Defense is pitiful even with Eviolite, and No Guard does it no favors.

It's dependent on Shadow Sneak to pick off foes, and many of RU's top Pokemon are resistant or outright immune to its STAB.

It's a one-trick pony, and it's simply not as effective as it was during the days of Froslass Spikes/Shuckle Web HO.

I feel like this is a poem lol, well done.

On Tyrantrum: I'm not sure tbh. I've only tested CB and while it's very powerful I don't see it in the A ranks simply because many teams pack a steel + fairy and that really hurts it. On-paper I don't like DD as much cuz without Jolly it won't outspeed Dugtrio, and I feel like it could use the power of adamant. I haven't tested it though so I can't judge. It also can't outspeed Sceptile even with Jolly. Stay where it's at for now unless someone can prove otherwise.

I'm neutral on Pidgeot.

Slurpuff should probably not move up, even with Drain Punch it struggles to bypass things like Bronzong and Escavalier, the former which takes around 73% max from Drain Punch and latter is never OHKO'd from full, which is a stretch considering how easy it is to wear down/it could die with SR, but it can still always live one from full and I'd be sure to keep it healthy if I see a slurpuff. Another thing is that it really struggles to find opportunities to set up especially against offense, and the spread of Fletchinder doesn't help it either as Acrobatics does 50% minimum. Stay where it's at.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

The way people here word their arguments against Bird seems like they're saying it's outclassed by Moltres (Same coverage, more potential roles for Moltres), but Bird is really just the best of both Moltres roles (Aside from SubToxic, but only people like I even use that to begin with). It can wallbreak with Hurricane as it is far more reliable when it comes to the confuse % than Moltres' which makes it more spammable as well as hitting harder than ScarfTres's, and while Moltres can use the Firespamming more easily due to STAB and higher BP moves the fire typing is often a nuisance too. That isn't to say Fire/Flying is a bad typing, but we all know the downfall of these mons due to a couple of rocks. I find it hard to use Moltres on a non-defog/spin team; I have absolutely no problem with Bird in such a team.

It will never have the speed of ScarfTres and power of LOTres, but it will always be stronger than ScarfTres and faster than LOTres, with the added benefit of being far more reliable and not held down by forcing a team-slot to be hazard removal (unless you're ballsy as fuck). I find it far better than any Moltres variation on a Spikes Offense team, mainly because there's not that many great spinners and Defog is counteractive (Yesyes, Kabutops and Hitmonlee exists) and if you do choose to run those spinners you're far more pressured to remove the opponent's rocks than you would be with Bird instead of just killing what's in front of you. I do however find issues myself deciding whether it is A+ or S-rank, and my issue is mainly how it is hard to mega evolve at times against the supposedly best matchup for it (offense).



Doublade should drop, the things it really heavily counters are rarely used anymore and it's generally speaking not fitting this meta where every team has multiple ways of handling it... without even pushing for it. No more need to run CM Cobalion with HP Ghost to take it by surprise, and SD Musketeers are as alive in this meta as Malamar is. It really doesn't check everything anymore. The added addition of Houndoom means that it usually have to sacrifice a moveslot for Sacred Sword, which kinda leaves lots to be desired.


Slurpuff should stay where it is. It gained a new move, sure, but it is equally as hard, if not harder, to Belly Drum the Puff into the skies. And CM Puff is a joke imo.


Can we push Golbat to B+ now, by the way? It's still really good for defensive and even balance teams. It helps them check threats like Pangoro, Houndoom, Mega Sceptile, Moltres, Dragalge... Cmon man. Alright, reliance on Eviolite and Rocks to be away to fully do it's job holds it somewhat back, but it''s not like it's an alpha-omega issue. Bravebird is a strong move for a defensive mon, it's got reliable recovery, it's got a wide movepool which you can tinker to your needs (Taunt if you want to beat opposing Stall more easily, Defog if you have no other hazard remover, Toxic so that SubTox Moltres cries, Super Fang for those Bulky Offense/stall teams +++). Poison/Flying is also a good typing, it sits at a good speed tier for a defensive mon (it needs little speedcreep to take on various mons like Jolly Panda, like 84 EVs) and it's all-round a good mon. And I think the ORAS meta is kind to it too.

 

[atomicllamas]

Doublade cannot effectively use any item other than Eviolite, and it's vulnerable to Knock Off.

Its Special Defense is pitiful even with Eviolite, and No Guard does it no favors.

It's dependent on Shadow Sneak to pick off foes, and many of RU's top Pokemon are resistant or outright immune to its STAB.

It's a one-trick pony, and it's simply not as effective as it was during the days of Froslass Spikes/Shuckle Web HO.

This greatly exaggerates the problems that Doublade has in the current meta game. First off, so what if Doublade can't effectively use any item other than Eviolite, that's super irrelevant. Gligar is A+ and can only use Eviolite effectively, and if anything Gligar is more Knock Off bait than Doublade, as Doublade will be switching out of Dark-types for the most part (both get knocked off by Fighting-types), Alomomola can only use Leftovers effectively, I just don't really get your point about only being able to use one item, how does this make it less viable? Its SpD is bad, okay, but its typing does allow it to be a back up check to special threats like Dragalge and Mega Sceptile, as well as countering Sub CM Cresselia, which is one of the best Pokemon in the tier. "It's dependent on Shadow Sneak to pick off foes, and many of RU's top Pokemon are resistant or outright immune to its STAB." Having priority is a good thing though, this isn't a negative, the negative here is that Doublade is slow, which is true, however it has enough speed to deal with a lot of the things it needs to, it can speed creep Rhyperior, it outspeeds Mega Abomasnow (still a super threatening mon), and forces out Slowking thanks to its base 35 Speed. As for being a one-trick pony, I guess it only has one set, but that one set does a lot of things, and having one set has never been a good reason to drop a Pokemon, see A+ Alomomola, A+ Mega Pidgeot, A+ Gligar, A Aromatisse, A Fletchinder, etc.

Doublade is the best spin blocker tier, its still one of the best Cobalion switch-ins even if SD has become rarer, it still counters SD Abomasnow, counters Sub CM Cresselia, it counters plenty of new threats too such as SD Mega Sceptile, Mega Glalie (underrated af right now), Drain Punch B Drum Slurpuff (seriously Doublade is offenses saving grace against Slurpuff if you have ANYTHING that lets it set up for free), and Crodino. A lot of the new things that apparently give Doublade trouble can be hit with Sacred Sword on the switch which is definitely a viable option to use over Shadow Claw in this meta (although I really haven't been seeing that much Houndoom, it might not even be an A- worthy mon, lol). On top of doing all this it is basically the bulkiest Pokemon that fits on purely offensive teams, and allows offensive teams to actually switch into some pretty huge meta game threats.

Arikado said, "And to not sound like I'm underselling Doublade, I do acknowledge that it can potentially wall Cresselia, Glalie, and Slurpuff, but the latter two aren't enough to make it stay in A while there are direct answers to Doublade on pretty much any successful RU team right now."

There are direct answers to Cresselia on every successful RU team, same with Dragalge and Mega Sceptile, the reason successful teams have a direct answer to Doublade is because Doublade is threatening enough to require people to take it into account during team building. In my opinion Doublade should definitely stay in A rank, I might be over selling this thing, but I don't think the ORAS meta has become unfriendly enough to drop it two ranks (it was A+ in XY).

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Quagsire should be added to a "New Pokemon" rank because it's now part of the RU tier once more and should be left open for discussion imo.

Mawile should also be added to the Wobbuffet rank. It should be pretty obvious why (Mawile is almost completely worthless without its mega stone).

 

[aVocado]

Quagsire should be added to a "New Pokemon" rank because it's now part of the RU tier once more and should be left open for discussion imo.

Mawile should also be added to the Wobbuffet rank. It should be pretty obvious why (Mawile is almost completely worthless without its mega stone).

idk i feel like that's kinda hasty, like it might have a slight niche @_@ its not that obviously terrible like wobbufett is considering all its moves bar sucker punch get sheer force boost

edit: also with quag in RU i hope u all finally agree that doublade should drop lol

 

[Senpai D.M]

I agree with Doublade drop and its still a great mon, it does its role well and its my favorite slurp check

 

[Molk]

Alrighty, i removed Sharpedo (talk about saved by the bell lol) and Gallade from the list since they moved up by usage, and added our new additions to RU, Quagsire and Mawile! I'd like some discussion on where these two should be placed asap.

I'll update the thread with some other changes later.

 

[dhelmise]

Unranked ---> B/B- Rank
Even though Mawile is generically seen useless without it's mega being usable, it isn't. If it were to be running Sheer Force instead of intimidate, along with SD, It would become an immediate threat. Having access to two STAB moves that both get secondary effects (Iron Head and Play Rough) allows Mawile to become monstrous in various cases. Yes, it isn't playable in RU yet, but it is already viewed as a threat to me, and hopefully others. Even if it doesn't run a Sheer Force set and runs a generic Intimidate, this can lead to Mawile becoming a nuisance among all in RU. Luckily, it got a buddy moved down with it which has Unaware and Ground-typing (Hi Quagsire), so it got a check to come along with it.

EDIT: SMH you all think it's worthless.

 

[phantom]

Why are you even trying to rank something when you've never used it before...

 

[dhelmise]

Why are you even trying to rank something when you've never used it before...

I'd like some discussion on where these two should be placed asap.

 

[phantom]

Asap probably implies when it's actually legal on the ladder .-.

 

[dhelmise]

Asap probably implies when it's actually legal on the ladder .-.

Even if it does, I still want to share my early opinion on what I think it can do in RU. n_n

 

[SketchUp]

Quagsire looks like an amazing pokemon in the current metagame. A few pokemon it beats include Fletchinder, Cobalion, Slurpuff and Doublade, some pokemon that threaten the average balanced team. I didn't try Quag out yet in RU but it seems a very good pokemon for the RU meta.