It's certainly better than Double-Edge on Tauros (a. Chansey. b. Tauros has just barely enough bulk to avoid 2HKOs from almost everything; any recoil severely degrades that) even without the para (and if you calculate "net" damage, it comes out lower than Body Slam). Snorlax there's more of a choice, since Mega Kick does more damage on average than Body Slam (120 * 75% = 90, while Body Slam has 85); Mega Kick also makes Hyper Beam less necessary (it gets the 2HKO on Chansey and the usual 2HKO on Starmie by itself) and thus gives you more space for coverage. But misses still suck, and Body Slam para is still important against several of Snorlax's common non-Normal opponents. So overall we'll probably see some more diversification in Snorlax's sets, but Tauros will remain much as it is.
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Resource Normal-types cannot be paralyzed by Body Slam
- Thread starter Jorgen
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Tried 72 Body Slams on Pokémon Stadium vs Normal types, didn't paralyze once.
I'm trying to confirm it using LemAsm and Cheat Engine but it's taking a bit of time. Is there a way to do it faster ? I'm still a newb at this.
Lmao what the hell crystal, are you going to completely overthrow past metagames on a daily basis now?
Yes it does, and no it wasn't known about.
But it's not as relevant because nobody spams Tbolt into Electrics hoping for a para (as almost everything besides Electrics that uses Tbolt also uses Blizzard, which does over twice as much damage to Electrics and has a much nastier secondary, and Electrics all get Thunder Wave and will just use that) while spamming Body Slam into Normals isn't a terrible idea (as Normals don't resist Normal and most of the things using Body Slam don't get Thunder Wave). Also because Body Slams and Normals are way more common than Thunderbolts and Electrics in OU play.
I'm curious about whether Lapras will still remain high in usage, and whether Body Slam will remain an integral part of its set. I mean, on one hand, Bslam's barely stronger than Blizzard without the para chance on Chansey. On the other hand, Twaves can do that for you, and it's not like Lapras has any better ways to deal damage to Chansey - Double-Edge is the alternative, which guarantees a 4HKO, but each hit does 10% of recoil to Lapras. And you kinda need something other than Blizzard because of PP.
Also what happens to Lapras' 4th? Confuse Ray probably starts to tank with self-generated parafusion being off the table. Does Sing become the best option? Or will we see more Hyper Beam?
Other movesets shouldn't change too much, as Physical Normals don't want to eat that recoil vs. Chansey, nor give up the paralysis vs. Lapras/Egg/Starmie/Zam, and the benefits gained in dittos are situational (namely, potential 2HKO without resorting to Hyper Beam in the Tauros ditto, and getting an opposing Lax into Hyper Beam range after only 2 hits as opposed to 3 from Body Slam). The main things I see happening are:
Also what happens to Lapras' 4th? Confuse Ray probably starts to tank with self-generated parafusion being off the table. Does Sing become the best option? Or will we see more Hyper Beam?
Other movesets shouldn't change too much, as Physical Normals don't want to eat that recoil vs. Chansey, nor give up the paralysis vs. Lapras/Egg/Starmie/Zam, and the benefits gained in dittos are situational (namely, potential 2HKO without resorting to Hyper Beam in the Tauros ditto, and getting an opposing Lax into Hyper Beam range after only 2 hits as opposed to 3 from Body Slam). The main things I see happening are:
- Tauros wars now become 50/50s instead of effective queen trades, as it's no longer the case that the loser is likely to emerge paralyzed.
- Tauros is now more likely to trade blows with Lax without fearing paralysis.
- Snorlax dittos must end in Self-Destruct if they are to amount to trades.
- Most likely, Chansey strategy stays the same, as it's still the best thing on most teams to eat a Twave, which in turn will cause it to default to its pre-Enlightenment role. In the short term, though, I'd anticipate more Alakazam attempting to perform Chansey's status-absorbing role so it can fight Tauros/Lax (which it will subsequently struggle to do, as Tbolt/IB is doing piddly damage, Lax could always just Rest, and it only has 16 SoftBoiled PP vs 24 Body Slam PP + 16 EQ PP in a situation where it needs to spam it and hope for FPs to avoid dying to a subsequent Hyper Beam).
This is crazy!
I'd vote to keep the old incorrect mechanics if that were a possibility?
Btw, anyone talking about how matches would have turned out differently if the mechanics were correctly implemented does not have a valid argument, seen as everyone knew the rules as they were set out.
I'd vote to keep the old incorrect mechanics if that were a possibility?
Btw, anyone talking about how matches would have turned out differently if the mechanics were correctly implemented does not have a valid argument, seen as everyone knew the rules as they were set out.
what
the
fuck
the
fuck
I'm researching the RBY battle mechanics as a whole. You can follow my research in the second post of this thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/past-gens-research-thread.3506992/ Whenever I notice something weird or interesting I just point it out.
It would be suuuper gimmicky, but I wonder if anyone will use Stomp on Tauros or Headbutt on Snorlax. There's a drop in BP from Body Slam, but if someone is hungry for a secondary effect in normal v normal match ups we might see it pop up. Headbutt flinches from Snorlax are possible if the opponent is paralyzed and Snorlax also runs Amnesia or Harden - even if Lax itself is paralyzed, remember that now using any stat move lowers your opponent's speed again, so Snorlax has the potential to get faster than its opponents, which is really interesting I think.
Not saying I'd run flinch moves, but I'm having fun thinking about new possibilities this opens ...
As someone who has been relatively inactive in the Pokemon community for several years (and hasn't really played RBY since 2005 or so), this strikes me as absolutely insane.
Looking at the updated strategy dex here on Smogon (and a brief look at Hipmonlee's 2012 article summarizing the metagame), it looks like the game has basically been stagnant for nearly as long as Smogon has existed (which, admittedly, is only around half the age of the games themselves). I'm not sure if I should be bothered or comforted by the fact that there's been basically no new technology to emerge in the past ten years, but honestly it doesn't surprise me all that the RBY metgame was "solved" within a decade of the game's release.
My attitude and mindset might be dated (or just plain wrong), but I honestly am not sure that this makes Chansey significantly better. Sleep and freeze are still valid ways to deal with Chansey (a Blizzard freeze is statistically as likely as two consecutive FP), part of the reason that Chansey has traditionally favored Ice Beam over Blizzard (more PP = more chances to freeze). Thunder Wave (which is already ubiquitous) exists anyway in the event that you do want Chansey paralyzed.
In terms of standard movesets, I don't expect anything to change. Body Slam doesn't paralyze Tauros anymore, but it does paralyze Starmie (and other things that Tauros would rather see paralyzed than not), and even in Tauros vs Tauros mirrors it seems like his best move. If people are really looking for new tech and want to do away with Body Slam on Tauros, my first bet would honestly still be on Leer to replace it. Replacing Body Slam with a move like Headbutt or Stomp seems crazy to me, considering that STAB Stomp is still less powerful than Earthquake. Body Slam is still far and away the ability you'd prefer to have against non-normals (which should be at least half of any player's team) and even against normals, 127.5 base power (after STAB) seems way better than betting on flinches or other silly things. Body Slam is likely here to stay, even on non-normals (I can't really see Rhydon or Golem having anything better to deal with that move slot, and even if they can't paralyze Tauros or Snorlax, they can paralyze stuff like Starmie).
This will undoubtedly affect the way that battles resolve (particularly in Tauros vs Tauros situations; it feels like more of a coin flip since whoever wins the 50/50 escapes with an unparalyzed Tauros), and cases like this don't make the "new" (correct) paradigm seem much more interesting or healthy. (Not that I'd advocate for simulators to not reflect our understanding of the Game Boy game.) The game is undoubtedly different, but I'm not sure it will affect movesets all that much.
This doesn't really affect me at all so I probably have less reason than anyone else in this thread to spend time theorymonning, but it's incredibly interesting to me that things like this are still being discovered, and I feel the need to stress that this development in particular strikes me as totally nuts.
Looking at the updated strategy dex here on Smogon (and a brief look at Hipmonlee's 2012 article summarizing the metagame), it looks like the game has basically been stagnant for nearly as long as Smogon has existed (which, admittedly, is only around half the age of the games themselves). I'm not sure if I should be bothered or comforted by the fact that there's been basically no new technology to emerge in the past ten years, but honestly it doesn't surprise me all that the RBY metgame was "solved" within a decade of the game's release.
My attitude and mindset might be dated (or just plain wrong), but I honestly am not sure that this makes Chansey significantly better. Sleep and freeze are still valid ways to deal with Chansey (a Blizzard freeze is statistically as likely as two consecutive FP), part of the reason that Chansey has traditionally favored Ice Beam over Blizzard (more PP = more chances to freeze). Thunder Wave (which is already ubiquitous) exists anyway in the event that you do want Chansey paralyzed.
In terms of standard movesets, I don't expect anything to change. Body Slam doesn't paralyze Tauros anymore, but it does paralyze Starmie (and other things that Tauros would rather see paralyzed than not), and even in Tauros vs Tauros mirrors it seems like his best move. If people are really looking for new tech and want to do away with Body Slam on Tauros, my first bet would honestly still be on Leer to replace it. Replacing Body Slam with a move like Headbutt or Stomp seems crazy to me, considering that STAB Stomp is still less powerful than Earthquake. Body Slam is still far and away the ability you'd prefer to have against non-normals (which should be at least half of any player's team) and even against normals, 127.5 base power (after STAB) seems way better than betting on flinches or other silly things. Body Slam is likely here to stay, even on non-normals (I can't really see Rhydon or Golem having anything better to deal with that move slot, and even if they can't paralyze Tauros or Snorlax, they can paralyze stuff like Starmie).
This will undoubtedly affect the way that battles resolve (particularly in Tauros vs Tauros situations; it feels like more of a coin flip since whoever wins the 50/50 escapes with an unparalyzed Tauros), and cases like this don't make the "new" (correct) paradigm seem much more interesting or healthy. (Not that I'd advocate for simulators to not reflect our understanding of the Game Boy game.) The game is undoubtedly different, but I'm not sure it will affect movesets all that much.
This doesn't really affect me at all so I probably have less reason than anyone else in this thread to spend time theorymonning, but it's incredibly interesting to me that things like this are still being discovered, and I feel the need to stress that this development in particular strikes me as totally nuts.
Disaster Area
formerly Piexplode
mm it's mostly that the RBY community's hardly using Pokemon Showdown and consequently Smogon (until fairly recently).. PO's been a more central place for RBY (as a simulator and to a lesser extent as a community). Most discussion and active tournaments occur on http://rby2k10.proboards.com/ and http://www.pokemonperfect.com/forums/forum.php and has been growing reasonably well recently, as well as Crystal_'s still been finding the odd mechanical mishap (though this is by far the biggest, the other one found on the same day is significant, as well as less recently a more thorough understanding of Counter and scenarios in which ir works).
As I've said before, Lapras does not WANT to paralyse Chansey. It wants to freeze Chansey. Lapras should only be trying parafusion if Chansey is ALREADY paralysed. If Chansey's healthy, Lapras should be going for CRay/Blizzard (CRay slightly raises the chance that you'll get a freeze).
Well, I did kinda demonstrate that Hyper Beam is about as good vs. paralysed opponents. Confuse Ray's advantage over Hyper Beam is that you can go CRay+Blizzard to improve the chance of freezing NON-paralysed opponents. That doesn't change.
Remember, paralysis and confusion exhibit negative synergy. "Parafusion" is less than the sum of its parts; it is not a reason to use Confuse Ray. If using Confuse Ray on a paralysed X is worth it, using Confuse Ray on a healthy X is even better.
Snorlax gets Mega Kick, remember. Double-Edge is a shit move, but Mega Kick isn't.
Personally, I'd much rather have parafusion, not because it's better at beating Chansey (Those calculations you did a while back show that it's not that great a chance), but because it's much better at pressuring Chansey and creating free turns and favourable situations for things that threaten Chansey but don't want to take an IB/Twave.
Also parafusion may be less than the sum of its parts, but that doesn't change the fact that having a para'd foe is still better than having a non-para'd foe. Unless you're going for the freeze, which is relevant since we're talking Lap, but you sounded like you were speaking from principle.
I agree that parafusion is better than confusion alone, but my point is that the rationale for Confuse Ray is in fact improved by having fewer paralysed opponents (and therefore Lapras being able to para less things does not mean that Confuse Ray should drop in usage on it; Lapras itself is slightly weakened, I'd agree).
I think we're going to see a lot more Harden on Snorlax - maybe not in place of Body Slam (which, as m9m notes, will likely be a Body Slam/Mega Kick slot), but definitely on the set. The speed drop effects are persistent ... so if you have a paralyzed Snorlax facing a paralyzed Tauros (or Snorlax or Chansey or whatever), not only will using Harden make you faster, which is big enough, but even if the Tauros takes you out, you can bring in your own paralyzed Tauros (or a paralyzed Eggy! Or Goldon! Anything!) ... but be guaranteed to be faster than the Tauros who KOed the Snorlax. Easy revenge kills (or at the very least, exerts extremely strong pressure to switch).
If Lapras is in need of a new fourth move, maybe we see Lapras carrying around Growl to abuse the paralyzed speed-drop mechanic (Growl is the only non-Double Team stat move Lapras learns, but what the specific stat move IS hardly matters).
Well, yes, of course, I'm not dumb. But still, I find it odd that nobody ever had that one friend who also like pokémon and had some heated RBY battles.
I struggled a lot to find someone to play, and I didn't find any in my city (so I rarely use my arsenal).
And you have to put together the arsenal to play. If you don't have a game shark or things like that, believe me, it's not easy.
Even with that, we didn't find out as you are really that biased about a thing like that, and Body Slam paralyzing switch ins like Lapras, Egg and the rocks as common switch ins, doesn't help noticing that your 30% on normals is missing. Add that I often end up paralyzing Chansey before using lax.
At last, but not least, normals don't resist normal moves...
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Yeah, the fact that it's a proc rate really makes verifying it in-cart kinda difficult unless you're explicitly collecting stats for that purpose. You probably just have to assume you're super-unlucky in that situation. Also, as a kid, you probably were nowhere near the established RBY OU metagame.
Yes guys, I get how on a personal level, neither of you or me would find it out. It really is something hard to notice, both because playing RBY on the carts is hard and because you could just assume it was just bullshit probabilities ("I just got lucky you didn't paralyze my Tauros!!!") What amazes me is that not a single person in the whole competitive pokémon community found it out for so long. We're so many people, you'd think someone would notice it sooner!
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