Ubers Greninja



QC: Fireburn / PROBLEMS / shrang
GP: Lord Alphose / hollywood


Overview
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Greninja has a high Speed stat that allows it to function well as a suicide lead in Ubers. Furthermore, Greninja has a great signature ability, Protean, which allows it to switch its type depending on what move it uses, meaning it can easily play around opponents. Greninja has a huge movepool with many status moves as well as physical and special moves. However, one of Greninja's downsides is its mediocre offensive stats and bulk. Additionally, Greninja can be stopped quite easily by faster offensive attackers. Lastly, Greninja faces huge competition from the Deoxys formes as a suicide lead, although its niche lies in Toxic Spikes and its ability to block Rapid Spin because of Protean Shadow Sneak.

Suicide Lead
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name: Suicide Lead
move 1: Toxic Spikes
move 2: Spikes
move 3: Taunt
move 4: Shadow Sneak
ability: Protean
item: Focus Sash
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
nature: Jolly

Moves
========

Toxic Spikes is an entry hazard that affects all Pokemon not immune to poison on the switch in, and it eventually wears down most Pokemon after two layers. Spikes is another hazard that hurts the opponent on the switch in, and it also removes the effect of any Focus Sash. Taunt prevents the opponent from using any status attack against Greninja, most notably Defog, which can remove the hazards Greninja has set up. Shadow Sneak allows Greninja to change its typing to Ghost, which allows it to block Rapid Spin. It also helps Greninja pick off weakened Pokemon and beat Deoxys-A. Hydro Pump is another option to use in order to hit Mega Diancie for super effective damage, which is important as Mega Diancie bounces hazards back and can OHKO Greninja with a super effective Moonblast. Other notable targets for Hydro Pump are Mega Sableye and Landorus-T.

Set Details
========

Protean allows Greninja to play around with the opponent by changing its type every time it uses a move with a different typing. Focus Sash is the best item because it prevents Greninja from being OHKOed, guaranteeing that it will be able to get up a hazard or Taunt a Pokemon. The Attack EVs help Greninja to 3HKO Deoxys-S, and the Speed EVs help Greninja to outspeed Arceus variants so that it can Taunt them before they set up. A Jolly nature helps Greninja to outspeed up to base 120 Speed Pokemon, such as Mega Salamence. If Greninja runs Hydro Pump, make sure to use an EV spread of 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe along with a Timid nature because this allows Greninja to OHKO Naive Mega Diancie if it tries to switch in.

Usage Tips
========

Greninja works best as a lead, although you must be careful when dealing with Magic Bounce users such as Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie. Set up Spikes and Toxic Spikes depending on the opposing team; Spikes troubles bulky offense teams, while Toxic Spikes beats up defensive teams by dealing damage every turn. Use Taunt when predicting the opponent to set up on you, use Defog, or set up their own hazards. Shadow Sneak is the best option to use if you predict the opponent will try to Rapid Spin away your hazards, and it has the added benefit of beating common leads such as Deoxys-A and Deoxys-S.

Team Options
========

Support from offensive Pokemon such as Mega Gengar, Mega Salamence, Genesect, and Primal Groudon is good because they prevent the opponent from using Rapid Spin or Defog. Other Taunt users such as Yveltal or Darkrai can prevent the opponent from removing your hazards with Defog once Greninja has fainted. Aside from those, Pokemon that can deal with a Darkrai lead such as Mega Diancie make for good partners too, as its ability, Magic Bounce, will bounce back Dark Void which would prevent Greninja from setting up hazards. However, when predicting the opponent with Darkrai, lead with Diancie, as it won't bounce back hazards when it switches in as regular Diancie. Furthermore, Primal Groudon is another good partner as it can set up Stealth Rock and benefit from the Toxic Spikes, which wear down its defensive checks. Pokemon such as Mega Salamence, Kyurem-W, and Darkrai that appreciate having hazards on the field to net KOs more easily make good partners. Other examples of good teammates include Mega Scizor and Primal Kyogre, which beat Mega Diancie, and Xerneas, which beats Mega Sableye. Pursuit users, such as Tyranitar or Aegislash, can help to trap Latios and Latias which can try to Defog. Powerful U-turn users such as Scizor and Landorus-Therian make good partners too, as they can lead and hit opposing Deoxys formes and then switch into Greninja, which can then beat them with a Shadow Sneak. Lastly, Pokemon that can flinch opponents, such as Shaymin-Sky or Kangaskhan, benefit from Poison damage that Toxic Spikes provide.


Other Options
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An all-out attacking set with great coverage such as Gunk Shot, which can OHKO Xerneas, Low Kick, and Grass Knot, which can 2HKO Primal Groudon, is usable, but such a set is largely outclassed by Deoxys-A, which has superior offensive presence. U-turn can be used by Greninja to maintain momentum and switch out of its checks and counters, but Greninja cannot miss out on any of its current moves as it will lack a hazard, a block to Defog, or a block to Rapid Spin. Additionally, Haze is an option to remove stat boosts, but Taunt prevents the opponent from setting up on Greninja anyway.


Checks & Counters
########

**Darkrai**: Darkrai outspeeds Greninja and puts it to sleep with Dark Void, preventing it from setting up hazards. However, it doesn't like taking a Gunk Shot.

**Magic Bounce**: Magic Bounce users such as Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie bounce back the entry hazards Greninja tries to set up and beat it with one of their attacks.

**Taunt**: Faster Taunt users such as Darkrai and Deoxys-S can Taunt Greninja, preventing it from setting up Spikes, though the latter needs to be wary of Shadow Sneak.

**Strong priority**: As Greninja is frail, strong priority such as an Extreme Speed from Deoxys-A or Arceus can quickly bring Greninja to its end.
 
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I think this is ready for QC. Do I have to expand more on OO by putting all offensive options apart, or do I keep it like this?
 

Lemonade

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Maybe run max Attack since you are Sashed anyway and Shadow Sneak lets you kind of anti-lead 252 HP Deo-S as well (assuming Deo-S Taunts you the first turn as you go for Shadow Sneak, then it either Rocks or Knock Off which you live as you Shadow Sneak again, and the third turn you KO, limiting it to one layer. If they go for hazards immediately I guess you can trade or something. Ladder-wise ppl will probably clueless that Greninja sets up hazards so they probably won't go for the Taunt but eh).

In Usage Tips I would also make anti-leading the main emphasis of Sneak, since I still haven't seen Rapid Spin at all (but ofc still mention spinblocking). Also maybe add a bit about using it as a lead except vs. Sableye and Diancie (covered in C&C already but imo this is part of usage tips as well).

Also since Greninja is one of the few TSpikers, you could mention stuff like Skymin for flinch hax and Kanga for Fake Out which are especially good with TSpikes. Maybe also mention stuff that can Pursuit trap Latis, since they will definitely be trying to Defog. Taunt + Sneak is also nifty vs Latis, but Sneak doesn't outdamage Roost / Recover unfortunately.

In OO, maybe explicitly mention Gunk Shot because it does solid damage to Xerneas (good chance to KO if Greninja has LO), IMO other offensive options aren't really good so they don't really need to be listed.
 
Maybe run max Attack since you are Sashed anyway and Shadow Sneak lets you kind of anti-lead 252 HP Deo-S as well (assuming Deo-S Taunts you the first turn as you go for Shadow Sneak, then it either Rocks or Knock Off which you live as you Shadow Sneak again, and the third turn you KO, limiting it to one layer. If they go for hazards immediately I guess you can trade or something. Ladder-wise ppl will probably clueless that Greninja sets up hazards so they probably won't go for the Taunt but eh).

In Usage Tips I would also make anti-leading the main emphasis of Sneak, since I still haven't seen Rapid Spin at all (but ofc still mention spinblocking). Also maybe add a bit about using it as a lead except vs. Sableye and Diancie (covered in C&C already but imo this is part of usage tips as well).

Also since Greninja is one of the few TSpikers, you could mention stuff like Skymin for flinch hax and Kanga for Fake Out which are especially good with TSpikes. Maybe also mention stuff that can Pursuit trap Latis, since they will definitely be trying to Defog. Taunt + Sneak is also nifty vs Latis, but Sneak doesn't outdamage Roost / Recover unfortunately.

In OO, maybe explicitly mention Gunk Shot because it does solid damage to Xerneas (good chance to KO if Greninja has LO), IMO other offensive options aren't really good so they don't really need to be listed.
Thanks a lot for the advice - will edit this tomorrow (its l8 lol)
 
Mention in OO how Low Kick and Gunk Shot make all-out attacking Greninja MUCH better than before, even though it's largely outclassed by Deoxys-A. Killing Xerneas after rocks is fun and Grass Knot hits Primal Groudon for a 2HKO.

Offensive stats are not at all decent by Ubers standards, change that to "mediocre" in the introduction.

Change spread to 252 Attack to do as much damage to Deoxys-S as possible, Greninja isn't taking hits in Ubers anyway.

Mega Gengar can only prevent Defog in a 1-1 situation, it cannot switch in and stop Defog attempts. Gengar spinblocks, too (though spinners are rare and bad). Mention in Team Options that multiple Taunt users + offensive pressure are often needed to keep up hazards, or at least severely punish any turn used to rid their side of the field of them.
 
Is Shadow Sneak really necessary? If a spinner leads against you it can just attack the first turn and spam Rapid Spin, preventing you from getting more than one hazard up since you'll allow a spin once you set up another hazard.
Maybe Hydro Pump can be slashed? It can OHKO Mega Diancie and offensive Excadrill, as well as 2HKOing most other spinners and Deoxys-S (which is the same thing as 3HKOing it except it can't switch out after turn 2).

Edit:
252 Atk Protean Greninja Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-S: 116-138 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-S: 168-198 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Greninja Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-S: 115-136 (37.8 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Hydro is inferior to Sneak in that it's inaccurate and doesn't beat Deoxys-A, it's no worse in other areas.
252 SpA Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 434-512 (119.8 - 141.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Protean Greninja Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 81-96 (22.3 - 26.5%) -- 14.5% chance to 4HKO

both moves do jack to scizor

252 SpA Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 284-336 (108.8 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Protean Greninja Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Diancie: 55-66 (22.8 - 27.3%) -- 49.9% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Greninja Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Diancie: 218-258 (90.4 - 107%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Diancie: 162-192 (67.2 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(just taunt Xerneas I guess?)


252 SpA Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 205-243 (78.5 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Protean Greninja Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kabutops: 51-61 (19.5 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress: 151-178 (42.7 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Protean Greninja Shadow Sneak vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Forretress: 40-48 (11.3 - 13.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever

nothing to Tentacruel
taunt everyone else
 
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Is Shadow Sneak really necessary? If a spinner leads against you it can just attack the first turn and spam Rapid Spin, preventing you from getting more than one hazard up since you'll allow a spin once you set up another hazard.
Maybe Hydro Pump can be slashed? It can OHKO Mega Diancie and offensive Excadrill, as well as 2HKOing most other spinners and Deoxys-S (which is the same thing as 3HKOing it except it can't switch out after turn 2).
Not really, Shadow Sneak is also essential for beating Deoxys-A and Deoxys-S, which is important, plus spinblocking is really useful.
 
hey there, this thread isn't read for GP yet. The process is the Quality Control team does two checks, then the author writes this up, then one more QC checks it, and then it's ready for GP. The author will change the tag to Copyediting and usually put GP 0/2 in the title when it's ready, as well as making a post saying it's ready for GP. This isn't the final form of the analysis so there's no point GPing it now.
Oh, sorry about that, this is my first time doing a GP check. Sorry again

Edit:Should I delete it?
 

Fireburn

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Mention Waterfall/Hydro Pump in OO to help deal with Mega Diancie leads

Also mention teammates that can deal with Darkrai leads. Also Darkrai doesn't commonly run Taunt in ORAS so take care to mention Dark Void just as much/more

QC 1/3 assuming you do these things
 
Mention Waterfall/Hydro Pump in OO to help deal with Mega Diancie leads

Also mention teammates that can deal with Darkrai leads. Also Darkrai doesn't commonly run Taunt in ORAS so take care to mention Dark Void just as much/more

QC 1/3 assuming you do these things
Implemented! Ready for the second check.
 

Inspirited

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I would personally put Gunk Shot in moves, or slash it with Spikes, because Mega Diancie is that much of a pain. Spikes are something you will hardly ever use with Greninja, since Toxic Spikes is why it is on your team in the first place. It gives Greninja some offensive presence and 2HKOs every Fairy that isn't part Steel or is regular Diancie. This is up to the qc to decide of course.

E: Darkrai should be in C&C imo. It stops grenny with Dark Void or the rare Taunt but dislikes taking Gunk Shot.
 
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I would personally put Gunk Shot in moves, or slash it with Spikes, because Mega Diancie is that much of a pain. Spikes are something you will hardly ever use with Greninja, since Toxic Spikes is why it is on your team in the first place. It gives Greninja some offensive presence and 2HKOs every Fairy that isn't part Steel or is regular Diancie. This is up to the qc to decide of course.

E: Darkrai should be in C&C imo. It stops grenny with Dark Void or the rare Taunt but dislikes taking Gunk Shot.
This looks good, I'll add it in.

e; added
 
I don't think Gunk Shot is worth a mention (except on a LO set which is not very viable), especially since you rejected my suggestion of Hydro Pump, since Gunk Shot cannot OHKO 0/0 Hasty Mega Diancie or 0/0 neutral-natured Xerneas without a boosting item.
Furthermore, I think you're underrating the value of Hydro Pump, as the way you phrased it in the analysis makes it seem like a useless move that only hits Mega Diancie and nothing else. Hydro Pump gains an OHKO on all Mega Diancie except 248/0 variants, which stand a 45% chance of being OHKO'd after factoring accuracy. Waterfall does not stand a chance to OHKO Mega Diancie unless it's running a Hasty nature, which is rare since they'll usually run Naive to take Ho-Oh's attacks better.
Furthermore, Shadow Sneak gets a 3HKO on Deoxys-S, meaning it has two turns to do whatever it wants. Hydro Pump similarly gets a 2HKO on Deoxys-S, which puts Deoxys-S in the same position as Shadow Sneak.
Hydro Pump does miss out on Deoxys-A, and is also much less accurate than Shadow Sneak, so I think you should emphasise more on these two shortcomings, rather than simply stating that it hits only Mega Diancie.
(Plus Hydro hits all other spinners harder.)
E: I thought we were running Sash on Greninja
 
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I don't think Gunk Shot is worth a mention (except on a LO set which is not very viable), especially since you rejected my suggestion of Hydro Pump, since Gunk Shot cannot OHKO 0/0 Hasty Mega Diancie or 0/0 neutral-natured Xerneas without a boosting item.
Furthermore, I think you're underrating the value of Hydro Pump, as the way you phrased it in the analysis makes it seem like a useless move that only hits Mega Diancie and nothing else. Hydro Pump gains an OHKO on all Mega Diancie except 248/0 variants, which stand a 45% chance of being OHKO'd after factoring accuracy. Waterfall does not stand a chance to OHKO Mega Diancie unless it's running a Hasty nature, which is rare since they'll usually run Naive to take Ho-Oh's attacks better.
Furthermore, Shadow Sneak gets a 3HKO on Deoxys-S, meaning it has two turns to do whatever it wants. Hydro Pump similarly gets a 2HKO on Deoxys-S, which puts Deoxys-S in the same position as Shadow Sneak.
Hydro Pump does miss out on Deoxys-A, and is also much less accurate than Shadow Sneak, so I think you should emphasise more on these two shortcomings, rather than simply stating that it hits only Mega Diancie.
(Plus Hydro hits all other spinners harder and is more accurate than Gunk Shot.)
Yeah, but Gunk Shot also hits the Lati-twins harder, as well as Chansey, Lugia, Ho-oh, that stuff if you're forced to attack. Furthermore, when a Mega Diancie is going for Moonblast, Greninja is OHKOed after Hydro Pump. However, after Gunk Shot, it gains Poison-typing, meaning it will resist the attack and it will be able to knock Diancie-Mega out after.

Again, Hydro Pump is placed in Other Options here.
 
I said Gunk Shot can never OHKO Mega Diancie, it's not even SE against it and Hydro has the same accuracy but hits Darkrai harder (blabla, did you ask qc at all? gunk shot is an almost useless move)
 

shrang

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Gunk Shot is another option to use in a moveslot to hit Mega Diancie for super effective damage, which is important as Mega Diancie bounces hazards back and can OHKO Greninja with a supereffective Moonblast. Another notable target is Darkrai.
Um, no it doesn't. Rock resists Poison.
 
I said Gunk Shot can never OHKO Mega Diancie, it's not even SE against it and Hydro has the same accuracy but hits Darkrai harder (blabla, did you ask qc at all? gunk shot is an almost useless move)
Actually, I tested Hydro Pump and found it way better than Gunk Shot. It's added in moves now with an alternative spread in Set Details. Gunk Shot wasn't good, so I removed the mentions from the analysis, as well as the mentions of Waterfall / Hydro Pump in OO since Hydro is in moves and is mostly way more powerful, so I left out Waterfall to as it cannot OHKO mega diancie iirc and the other notable targets are hit better by hydro. (m sableye can burn greninja, making its waterfall do nothing)
 

shrang

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And lastly, Greninja faces huge competition from the Deoxys-formes as a suicude lead.
What makes Greninja better? Why use it over Deoxys formes? You need to be more specific. Toxic Spikes and ability to to spinblock are key differentiating factors.

Other notable targets are Mega Sableye and Darkrai.
I think this might have been left over from when you had Gunk Shot, but Hydro Pump isn't really a move specific to hit Darkrai. It also beats Greninja no matter what (it'll just sleep you, unless it misses), so there isn't much point including Darkrai in there.

Support from offensive Pokemon such as Mega Gengar and Primal Groudon is good because it disallows the opponent to use Rapid Spin or Defog in most situations after Greninja has fainted. Other Taunt users such as Yveltal or Darkrai that can prevent the opponent from removing the hazards by Defog are useful once Greninja has fainted.
It's not really "most situations". Having Mega Gengar, other Taunt users and offensive presence helps with preventing your opponent from Defogging, but it's far from reliable. I'd get rid of "most situations".

Pokemon that can deal with a Darkrai lead such as Mega Diancie make for good partners too, because it will bounce back Dark Void which prevents Greninja from setting up hazards.
I'd go a step further and tell the reader to lead with Mega Diancie if they see a Darkrai, because if you lead with Greninja, Diancie isn't bouncing Void back since it hasn't Mega Evolved.

Mention strong U-turn users such as Scizor, Lando-T, Yveltal to help deal with lead Deo-S (which would let you finish it off with Shadow Sneak). Letting it get 2 layers up because Shadow Sneak can't kill it is kind of annoying. I left Genesect out of that list because you'd probably get your Scarf Knocked Off, which is not fun.

Fix these and I'll approve.
 
What makes Greninja better? Why use it over Deoxys formes? You need to be more specific. Toxic Spikes and ability to to spinblock are key differentiating factors.



I think this might have been left over from when you had Gunk Shot, but Hydro Pump isn't really a move specific to hit Darkrai. It also beats Greninja no matter what (it'll just sleep you, unless it misses), so there isn't much point including Darkrai in there.



It's not really "most situations". Having Mega Gengar, other Taunt users and offensive presence helps with preventing your opponent from Defogging, but it's far from reliable. I'd get rid of "most situations".



I'd go a step further and tell the reader to lead with Mega Diancie if they see a Darkrai, because if you lead with Greninja, Diancie isn't bouncing Void back since it hasn't Mega Evolved.

Mention strong U-turn users such as Scizor, Lando-T, Yveltal to help deal with lead Deo-S (which would let you finish it off with Shadow Sneak). Letting it get 2 layers up because Shadow Sneak can't kill it is kind of annoying. I left Genesect out of that list because you'd probably get your Scarf Knocked Off, which is not fun.

Fix these and I'll approve.
edited!
 

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