Ubers Arceus-Normal

PISTOLERO

I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
Arceus


Need For Extremespeed~

Overview
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With the strongest priority in the Ubers tier, fantastic 120 base stats across the board, and a wide array of coverage moves, Arceus-Normal makes for a fantastic late-game sweeper that can easily set up and sweep mid- or late-game once its checks and counters have been even slightly weakened. However, a huge part of Arceus-Normal's viability also comes from its ability to serve as a very strong revenge killer for its team, taking out weakened offensive threats with its Life Orb Extreme Speed. Arceus-Normal also pairs well with Primal Groudon both offensively and defensively, with the two breaking physical walls for each other or Primal Groudon simply providing Stealth Rock support, Lava Pluming physical walls, and absorbing Will-O-Wisp. Arceus-Normal also fares well against opposing Primal Groudon due to the latter's weakness to Ground, allowing Arceus-Normal to break through with Earthquake. Arceus-Normal also appreciates the decline of Will-O-Wisp Support Arceus, non-Primal Groudon, and Landorus-T in the generation transition, competent checks in XY. However, a new check in Mega Salamence has been introduced, and old checks such as Mega Gengar are still viable. The indirect rise of Arceus-Ghost due to Latias and Latios is not particularly appreciated either.

Extreme Killer
########
name: Extreme Killer
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Extreme Speed
move 3: Shadow Claw / Stone Edge
move 4: Earthquake
ability: Multitype
item: Life Orb
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
nature: Jolly

Moves
========

Swords Dance grants Arceus-Normal the ability to double its Attack, allowing it to OHKO various Pokemon such as Mewtwo and offensive Yveltal with little or no prior damage. Extreme Speed allows Arceus-Normal to bypass Speed tiers and Choice Scarf users, and it can and should be used to revenge kill offensive Pokemon such as Darkrai, Mega Mewtwo Y, and Blaziken once they have been even slightly weakened. Earthquake should be used to break through Primal Groudon as well as Steel- and Rock-types, namely Dialga, Arceus-Rock, and Mega Diancie, while Shadow Claw is used to break through Lugia and Ghost-types, namely Arceus-Ghost and Giratina-O. Stone Edge is an equally viable alternate option to Shadow Claw that can be used to break through Lugia, defensive Yveltal, Mega Salamence and Ho-Oh with one moveslot.

Various other coverage moves can be used in lieu of Shadow Claw, Stone Edge or Earthquake, although Earthquake is often nigh-on mandatory. Ice Beam takes out Mega Salamence after Stealth Rock, OHKOes the albeit rare Landorus-T and Gliscor after Stealth Rock as well, and can also 2HKO non-Primal Groudon. Overheat or Fire Blast can be used to blow Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor away, with Fire Blast also 2HKOing regular Groudon thanks to Drought. Lastly, Shadow Force can be used to OHKO Arceus-Ghost and Giratina-O as well as block Defog, but bear in mind it is easy for the opponent to switch in something that resists or is immune to Ghost during the charge turn, and Lugia is also given a free turn to Roost back to full health and reactivate Multiscale.

Set Details
========

Maximum Attack and Speed investment allows Arceus to at worst Speed tie with opposing Arceus. Life Orb grants a significant power boost to all its attacks. Either Silk Scarf or Lum Berry can be used alongside an Adamant nature and a more bulky spread of 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe or 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe, with 16 Speed outspeeding neutral max Speed base 90s and 56 Speed outspeeding Adamant Rayquaza. Investing heavily in HP makes Arceus a lot bulkier, allowing it to set up more easily, and a Lum Berry allows Arceus to absorb a Will-O-Wisp or a Dark Void.

Usage Tips
========

Don't just use Arceus-Normal late-game, as it's an amazing revenge killer that can take out dangerous opposing threats when they are weakened. Do not set up whilst checks are still healthy, as you should be using teammates to wear them down to the point where Arceus can OHKO them and avoid taking damage or status. You should wear down Will-O-Wisp users as well.

Similarly, do not set up on something like Primal Kyogre's Origin Pulse, as Arceus-Normal takes a huge amount of damage and can no longer sweep due to it being in range of opposing priority attacks, as well as being able to take fewer turns of Life Orb recoil. Setting up on things like Latios's -2 Draco Meteor is smarter, as it means Arceus-Normal doesn't get blasted on the turn it sets up.

When revenge killing bulky opposing threats, it is necessary to deal significant damage to them as they set up so that Arceus-Normal can revenge kill them easily. Foes such as Primal Groudon, Xerneas, and Mega Salamence need to be significantly weakened in order for Extreme Speed to KO them after you sacrifice a Pokemon to bring Arceus in safely. For Pokemon like Darkrai, Mega Mewtwo Y, and Blaziken, only a slight amount of prior damage is needed to push them into Extreme Speed range, but it is wise to calculate whether they will fall to Extreme Speed or not before trying to revenge kill them.

Team Options
========

Primal Groudon absorbs burns for Arceus-Normal while setting up Stealth Rock and potentially weakening Lugia with either Lava Plume burns, Toxic, or Stone Edge. Darkrai or Yveltal can be double switched into Arceus-Ghost, Giratina-O, and Lugia, either KOing them or forcing them out and making them take more entry hazard damage the next time they come in. Shadow Ball Mega Gengar can trap checks such as Lugia and severely weaken Arceus-Ghost as well, and can it also run Hidden Power Fire for Ferrothorn or Mega Scizor. Xerneas can easily switch into defensive Yveltal, with Choice Scarf and Geomancy Xerneas both working very well on the kinds of teams Arceus-Normal finds itself on. Healing Wish Latias can be used to bring Arceus-Normal back for a second go at the opponent's team as well.

How Refreshing
########
name: How Refreshing
move 1: Refresh
move 2: Swords Dance
move 3: Extreme Speed
move 4: Shadow Claw
ability: Multitype
item: Silk Scarf
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
nature: Jolly

Moves
========

Refresh allows Arceus-Normal to absorb Will-O-Wisp and heal it easily. Swords Dance doubles Arceus's Attack, with Extreme Speed being the obvious STAB move of choice. Shadow Claw lets Arceus-Normal break through Arceus-Ghost, Giratina-O, and Lugia.

Set Details
========

Maximum Attack and Speed investment should be used so that Arceus-Normal can at worst Speed tie with opposing Arceus formes. Silk Scarf boosts the power of Extreme Speed without causing recoil damage.

Usage Tips
========

Don't just use Arceus-Normal late-game; it's an amazing revenge killer that can take out weakened threats. Refresh Arceus should also be used as an Arceus-Ghost check, as the ability to absorb Will-O-Wisp and an immunity to Ghost-type Judgment means Arceus can set up Swords Dances on it and, with some luck, break through Arceus-Ghost without being burned at the end of the exchange. Don't be afraid to let Arceus-Normal take a Will-O-Wisp or a Toxic if it lets Arceus-Normal KO something important, as the status can always be Refreshed away later.

Setting up on a powerful attack, such as Mega Salamence's Return or Double Edge, is a bad idea, as Arceus takes a huge amount of damage and can no longer sweep effectively due to it being severely weakened and in the range of opposing priority. Setting up on a Pokemon that Arceus-Normal forces out, such as a Pokemon Choice-locked into a move that cannot deal much damage to Arceus-Normal, works nicely.

Team Options
========

Primal Groudon absorbs burns for Arceus-Normal, sets up Stealth Rock, and, most importantly, blows every Steel-type away with either Earthquake, Fire Punch, or Lava Plume. Again, Dark-types such as Darkrai and Yveltal are appreciated to help with Arceus-Ghost, Giratina-O, and Lugia, although, with some luck, Arceus-Normal can break Arceus-Ghost itself. Mega Gengar can trap checks such as Lugia and severely weakens Arceus-Ghost as well, and it can trap Steel-types that would wall Arceus-Normal, disposing of them with Focus Blast or Hidden Power Fire. Blaziken or its Mega Evolution tramples Steel-types and can weaken Salamence for Arceus-Normal or vice versa. Ho-Oh beats up on physical walls, reduces Steel-types to molten slag, and softens Primal Groudon for Arceus-Normal.

Palkia is an interesting option, as it can remove Ferrothorn with Fire Blast, switches into defensive Primal Kyogre, and can also lure in support Arceus-Ghost to paralyze it with Thunder Wave, allowing Arceus-Normal to break through it much more easily.

Xerneas and Klefki deal with defensive Yveltal, with the former providing a strong offensive presence that scares Giratina-O away and potentially also providing additional cleric support should Arceus-Normal not find a turn to Refresh, and the latter setting up Spikes and spreading paralysis and poison to cripple the opposing team, while also walling Lugia.

Lastly, Latias or Latios with Hidden Power Fire can lure in and dispose of Ferrothorn and Scizor, with Latias also being able to use Healing Wish to bring Arceus-Normal back for a second go at the opponent's team.


Other Options
########

Choice Band + Trick gives Arceus-Normal an initially stronger Extreme Speed, and lets it potentially cripple certain checks, but leaves it at the mercy of Mega Gengar should it get trapped while locked into an unfavorable move. Wallceus is a defensive set that benefits from Normal's sole weakness to a very uncommon type in Ubers, and it can run moves such as Ice Beam and Earth Power alongside Will-O-Wisp and Recover so that Arceus can KO some of the things it is supposed to be checking, such as Rayquaza, Salamence and Primal Groudon. 56 Speed EVs should be used to outspeed Adamant Rayquaza, with maximum HP investment and the rest being poured into Defense along with a Bold nature.

Checks & Counters
########

**Arceus-Ghost**: Arceus-Ghost can at worst Speed tie with Arceus-Normal if both are running maximum Speed, survives a +2 Shadow Claw, and cripples Arceus-Normal with Will-O-Wisp. It can falter against Refresh variants, however. Focus Blast Arceus-Ghost is capable of dealing immediate damage to Arceus-Normal as well.

**Defensive Yveltal**: Yveltal survives anything except +2 Life Orb Stone Edge, which has a small chance to OHKO from full health and is a guaranteed KO after Stealth Rock. Yveltal can OHKO +2 Arceus-Normal in return with Black Glasses-boosted Foul Play or KO with Foul Play after Stealth Rock damage, a round of Rocky Helmet recoil or a round of Life Orb recoil.

**Giratina-Origin**: With proper investment, Giratina-O can survive a +2 Shadow Claw after Stealth Rock and can either cripple Arceus-Normal with Will-O-Wisp or phaze it with Dragon Tail.

**Lugia**: Lugia is insurmountable if its Multiscale is intact, easily phazing Arceus-Normal. It can also Roost back to Multiscale even while taking +2 Shadow Claws. However, +2 Life Orb Stone Edge can OHKO after Stealth Rock.

**Will-O-Wisp Arceus**: Arceus formes such as Ground and Fairy can take a +2 attack and burn Arceus-Normal with Will-O-Wisp, crippling it. Arceus-Rock resists Extreme Speed but risks losing the speed tie and getting KOed by +2 Earthquake.

**Sableye**: Sableye can Prankster Will-O-Wisp to cripple Arceus and can deal severe damage with Foul Play, OHKOing if Arceus tries to Swords Dance again after getting burned. Mega Sableye can also take a +2 Life Orb Earthquake and retaliate with Foul Play or Will-O-Wisp.

**Salamence**: With Intimidate before Mega Evolving and huge physical bulk after Mega Evolving, Salamence can win one-on-one if Stealth Rock is not on the field, 2HKOing with Return or at worst dealing huge damage with Double-Edge or Return. It falls to Ice Beam or boosted Stone Edge after Stealth Rock damage, however.

**Mega Gengar**: Mega Gengar outspeeds Arceus-Normal and can either heavily damage it with Focus Blast or give its life to take Arceus-Normal down with Destiny Bond. It is outsped and KOed by Jolly variants if it has not already Mega Evolved, however.

**Skarmory, Ferrothorn and Scizor**: Skarmory completely walls any Arceus variant without a Fire move, phazing it while barely taking a scratch. Scizor can take a +2 Earthquake reasonably well and deal heavy damage to Arceus with Superpower. Ferrothorn can rack up residual damage on Arceus-Normal with Leech Seed, Iron Barbs, and Protect, but it does not take +2 Earthquake very well and runs the risk of letting Arceus set up Swords Dance on its Protects. All three of these Steel-types are also promptly KOed by Fire Blast or Overheat.

**Unaware Clefable**: Physically defensive Unaware Clefable ignores any Swords Dance boosts, takes less than half from Extremespeed, and can slowly stall Arceus-Normal out with either Moonblast or Toxic.

**Choice Scarf Genesect**: Genesect resists Extreme Speed and can either deal heavy damage with Explosion or revenge kill a very weak Arceus-Normal with a faster Extreme Speed.
 
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Minority

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Some of Arceus' other options are worth slashing or putting in moves, there is also no mention of Refresh anywhere. The content of the moves section is also lacking and should specifically mention the relevant threats that each coverage allows you to bypass.
 

PISTOLERO

I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
Some of Arceus' other options are worth slashing or putting in moves, there is also no mention of Refresh anywhere. The content of the moves section is also lacking and should specifically mention the relevant threats that each coverage allows you to bypass.
  • Stone Edge can be used to hit Yveltal, Ho-Oh, Lugia
  • Refresh to check Arceus-Ghost and heal status
 
Just wondering, why isn't Recover at least mentiond somewhere? It allows Arceus to set up easier, as well as it allows it more staying power that lets it attack more.
 
Maybe it could be mentioned though, asi t does have some situational uses. The only thing that comes to mind is helping it set up against lando-t lacking toxic, but maybe qc knows some other scenarios. Its a really bad option of course, but as long as its viable it warrants OO I think.
 
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I don't like Life Orb on Ekiller, it wears it down so quickly. While the increase in power is nice, LO Ekiller can easily be brought down with prior damage + LO recoil.
 

Blue Jay

The notorious Good Wife
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Pls focus the Overview on its core qualities. You can briefly mention how ORAS helped/hurt it but that's not at all useful for a new player (who need these analyses the most). As for the set, lots of detail and options pls since it's the only set and this is a major Ubers threat. Silk Scarf should be slashed imo (mention Adamant for it in Set Details and mention that it's the item for Refresh sets), mention a bulky spread, slash Overheat after EQ (and make it the last move since unslashed > slashed) and Shadow Force/Refresh/Stone Edge in Moves. Lum, Recover and the obscure sets can stay in OO though, just give a proper explanation of Wallceus and some stuff it gets (eg Perish Song is really hard to come by). Pdon and especially regular Don are checks (although even the bulkier support Pdon takes a big chunk from +2 EQ).

Will stamp after fixes.
 

Jibaku

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  • max Attack and Speed so that Arceus can outspeed Lati@s and at worst speed tie with opposing Arceus
Outrunning Lati@s is insignificant since you'll probably be ESpeeding them anyways (unless you have Shadow Force). The most notable things you gain from +Speed are Mega Diancie, pre-mega Gengar, Mega Lucario, as well as ensuring you'll at least speed tie with enemy Ghostceus/Rockceus.

As a result, Adamant remains a viable option.
 
Just a small nitpick but Arceus is a llama, not a horse I'd give a small mention to Mega Mewtwo X in Checks and Counters. While it does not outright counter EKiller, a bulky set can tank a +2 Extreme Speed and KO back with Low Kick.
Just my bitcoin.
 

Inspirited

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Another nitpick, please don't put those last 4 EVs on E-Killer in HP. It has a natural Life Orb number with its base HP and takes the tiniest amount less from all forms of residual damage that way. Put the 4 in Defense or wherever it is more beneficial but not HP please. Sorry, this is just something that bugs me alot for whatever reason. :(
 

shrang

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I think a bigger reason for running 4 Def on Ekiller is the fact that you give Genesect an SpA boost, so it doesn't do as much with Explosion.

nvm
 
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PROBLEMS

AHEAD OF HIS TIME
I agree with Hack, take away the 4hp and put it in defense. Also worth mentioning Shadow Force is used to block defog etc
 
I would mention Latias as a teammate if Ekiller is running Life Orb. It gives it Healing Wish to restore its HP, since Life Orb is going to be wearing it down a lot.
 

PISTOLERO

I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
Pls focus the Overview on its core qualities. You can briefly mention how ORAS helped/hurt it but that's not at all useful for a new player (who need these analyses the most). As for the set, lots of detail and options pls since it's the only set and this is a major Ubers threat. Silk Scarf should be slashed imo (mention Adamant for it in Set Details and mention that it's the item for Refresh sets), mention a bulky spread, slash Overheat after EQ (and make it the last move since unslashed > slashed) and Shadow Force/Refresh/Stone Edge in Moves. Lum, Recover and the obscure sets can stay in OO though, just give a proper explanation of Wallceus and some stuff it gets (eg Perish Song is really hard to come by). Pdon and especially regular Don are checks (although even the bulkier support Pdon takes a big chunk from +2 EQ).

Will stamp after fixes.
I've done everything except slash a Fire Move in with Earthquake, but I'd like to explain myself as to why. Without Earthquake, any form of Primal Groudon can check Arceus and either phaze it, burn it, or just blast it with EQ / Precipice Blades, whereas +2 Life Orb Earthquake can OHKO fully defensive (252/252+) after Stealth Rock and like 10% prior damage, say Spikes or even like a U-Turn or something.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primal Groudon: 276-325 (68.3 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 212-251 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, say like a specially defensive Primal Groudon or a bulky Rock Polish variant

compared to:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 354-419 (90.5 - 107.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


We all know that Primal Groudon will be on every team so I would say that being able to easily blow through it is too important to give up on. I mentioned everything else though.
 

Inspirited

There is usually higher ground.
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Salamence can be added to Checks and Counters pretty safely I feel. It takes +1 Life Orb Extreme Speed disgustingly well and the damage it does with Frustration severely limits the Life Orb hits E-Killer has left. If it comes full health in at the same time as E-Killer, Mence beats it one on one without Stealth Rock on the field. I am sure bulkier spreads have similar if not better success with E-Killer (I have yet to use bulky mence though so i am not sure). I think it deserves a bottom spot in C&C at least.

Edit: I just noticed you mentioned it in the Overview too. I am even more confused as to why it isn't there now lol.
 
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Fireburn

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I would probably just slash Refresh with Earthquake. I know we said Refresh was gonna want its own set but iirc they use the same EVs and don't play differently enough to justify making an entirely new set for it.
 
I don't see what's wrong with putting the last 4 EVs in HP, it hits 382 HP with the 4 EVs. Neither 381 nor 382 are divisible by 4 nor 8 nor 10 nor 16, so the only increased residual damage you'd take is from the 8th consecutive turn of badly poison, which isn't happening (and if that's reasonable, nothing should ever run 4 HP EVs)
 
From what I understand and read, wouldn't it be best to end the HP of Arceus with a 9? Such as 419 or 359 etc. Since it means that Arceus would be taking one less damage per attack from LO or SR. It would allow Arceus 1 more turn of attack though it may barely make a difference
 

shrang

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Couple of things:

  • don't just use Arceus late-game, it's an amazing revenge killer that can take out even slightly weakened threats - Actually if you want to sweep with this thing, you'd better wait until late game because any earlier and it'll go nowhere. I understand that you want to say that Ekiller is a good revenge killer, and I agree, but Ekiller is not something you're supposed to spam in early/mid games. I think this might work better if you say "do not be afraid to use Arceus in early/mid games to revenge kill weakened threats, but do not attempt to sweep with it early because it's easily stopped". Also, I think you're exaggerating Ekiller's power a bit. I guess against stuff like Blaziken and Darkrai, "slightly weakened" is all you need to pick them off, but that's not really the case against other important threats like Mega Mence and GeoXern, which need to be at like 30% and 40% respectively before you can revenge kill them, and that is definitely not something I can call "slightly" weakened.
  • use as an Arceus-Ghost check as the ability to absorb Will-O-Wisp + an immunity to Ghost Judgment means Extremekiller sets up all over it - Just a note to say this actually isn't as easy as it looks. You need some luck on your side since even at +6, you can't OHKO Ghostceus with Shadow Claw if you're burnt, which means after you Refresh, you're going to have to win at least one speed tie with Ghostceus to put it down. Also you need to LOSE a speed tie on the Refresh if the Ghostceus just decides to keep spamming WoW. To get to +6, you're going to need to take at least 3 turns of burn damage (unless WoW misses, obv), and that kind of damage racks up. Sure, you're winning in the long run, but it's not as smooth as it looks. This is not to mention some people run Focus Blast on their Ghostceuses.
 

Fireburn

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I realize this is late but I think you should strongly consider slashing Stone Edge with Shadow Claw on the first set. Stone Edge does much more to Lugia while hitting important targets in PDef Yveltal and Mega Salamence, and it completely ganks PDef Ho-Oh. You lose coverage on Giratina-O but can still beat a weakened one, main thing is you become hopeless vs Ghostceus so if you run SEdge you better make sure you've got yourself a Ho-Oh/Yveltal.
 

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