Ubers is now a tier; a new Metagame called Anything Goes is added; M-Ray is banned from Ubers

[nygerman]

While there is no doubt BST is the #1 factor in determining a Pokemon's overall strength (fact: the average BST gets higher as you move up with the tiers), there are other things such as typing, movepool and ability to consider. Perhaps Mega Ray would have been balanced (by ubers standards) if it couldn't hold an item. Or if it didn't learn any good boosting moves. Or if its ability wasn't as good. The thing is, it completely warped the uber metagame around its very existance, even moreso than Mega Gengar (which almost got banned!) and that's why it was banned.

I disagree BST is the #1 factor determining a pokemon's strength. Kyurem-B has 700 BST, yet it's in ou. Effective BST also plays a role. There are two attack stats, but most pokemon only run one side of the spectrum, so one attack stat has no value in battle. You tell me which is the better pokemon stats: 100/150/100/30/100/100/580 or 100/100/100/100/100/100/600? BST is less important than Stat ditribution. Ubers, Ou, now uu have higher BST because most Legendaries and psueo-legendaries have high evenly distributed stats in all categories. For many pokemon having high attack stat, means lower other stats, but for legendaries, they can have high attack stat and high defenses.

In mega rayquaza's case, it's most of its BST is distributed between attack and special attack. It's defenses and speed are average for ubers. What separates it from everyone else is good ability, 115 speed, and a movepool that includes 120 Flying Stab with no drawbacks and basically every stats raiser move. BST has little to do with how powerful Rayquaza mega is. If you gave Primal Groudon Mega-ray's stats, he won't be half as good.

 

[phoenixflame95]

Yes and no. Kyurem and Kyurem-B both actually have great stat distributions and that's partly to do with having high BSTs to begin with. Otherwise you look at like Sableye or Beedrill and some others that don't have the luxury of a high BST and you have to leech off some of the more useless stats to add onto the relevant ones for their Megas. What mainly holds back all the Kyurem forms is that abysmal Ice typing, which is in my opinion the uncontested worst defensive type in the game, with Rock a close second. You can sometimes get away with these types' shortcomings with decent defenses and a useful secondary type pairing, but more importantly, major offensive presence and usually speed i.e. Tyranitar forms, Terrakion, Mega Diancie, Rhyperior, Kabutops and Omastar with Swift Swim in rain, Weavile, Mamoswine, along with the Kyurem forms. The problem with Kyurem-B is the lack of spammable physical STABs. It's forced to use a weak Dragon Claw and/or lock itself in with Outrage. And the physical Ice STAB is nonexistent. At least Kyurem-W has Ice Beam, Draco Meteor, Earth Power, Focus Blast, and Fusion Flare. Normal Kyurem has this problem too, but it's just eclipsed by its other forms in stat distribution and ability; some pokemon would kill for it. I mean 125/130/90/130/90/95? Yes please!!! Oh but wait...dat Ice type doe...eww....basically sums it up.

 

[QueenOfHax]

Ice typing isn't Kyurem-B's issue, in fact it's what prevents it from being outclassed by the other dragons in OU. A good physical ice move would push it to uber status, as many "other metagames" have proven time and again.
As for normal Kyurem, let's just say that 660 BST isn't that impressive anymore, especially when it has no useful ability. But again, ice typing isn't the main issue here either.

 

[phoenixflame95]

Ice typing isn't Kyurem-B's issue, in fact it's what prevents it from being outclassed by the other dragons in OU. A good physical ice move would push it to uber status, as many "other metagames" have proven time and again.
As for normal Kyurem, let's just say that 660 BST isn't that impressive anymore, especially when it has no useful ability. But again, ice typing isn't the main issue here either.

Well you're entitled to your opinion. But to me, it is the main issue. While Ice is no doubt one of the better attacking types, it's really those glaring weaknesses that sets the type back as a whole. While I wasn't speaking in the context of OU (although I guess it did sound that way), I do agree that a good physical Ice type would push Kyurem-B over the edge because it would probably then forego Dragon Claw as its main STAB move, and it would synergize well with Fusion Bolt. But regular Kyurem? You can't tell me that its stat spread isn't great in any other context or in general? It simply cannot make use of it defensively because of its Ice typing. Many other pokemon would kill for that kind of spread. So it has the stats, and it has a decent movepool too, so I wonder what you think is the issue? I mean a lot of things go into what makes a good pokemon, but typing is absolutely one of them. It could have a better ability, but many things don't have good abilities either, like the Mewtwos, Keldeo, Dialga, Palkia, Mega Gallade, Lucario, etc. There's no doubt that it can be the defining factor, like with all Huge and Pure Power users, the Blazikens (Speed Boost). How about the Arceus forms? They are identical aside from the plate that they hold. How usable is Arceus-Ice in Ubers? Barely...because it's Ice type.

 

[BaffleBlend]

While I'm glad that Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Lucario aren't technically banned anymore, Übers still has this "filthy cheating outcast" stigma about it. This is going to take a while to get used to to where I don't feel guilty for liking the pokémon that I like anymore.

 

[Aberforth]

While I'm glad that Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Lucario aren't technically banned anymore, Übers still has this "filthy cheating outcast" stigma about it. This is going to take a while to get used to to where I don't feel guilty for liking the pokémon that I like anymore.

...what the? I have no idea what this is meant to mean.

 

[BaffleBlend]

...what the? I have no idea what this is meant to mean.

Basically, OU is still the "default" league. If something is banned from OU, that's it, nobody will ever respect you liking that something again.
Now that Ubers is an actual tier, hopefully that might stop eventually.

 

[SG-58]

Basically, OU is still the "default" league. If something is banned from OU, that's it, nobody will ever respect you liking that something again.
Now that Ubers is an actual tier, hopefully that might stop eventually.

You mean that small percentage of OU players that think Ubers is a banlist?

 

[BaffleBlend]

You mean that small percentage of OU players that think Ubers is a banlist?

And the overwhelming percetage of non-Smogon players.

I'm vulnerable to peoples' opinions.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

Basically, OU is still the "default" league. If something is banned from OU, that's it, nobody will ever respect you liking that something again.
Now that Ubers is an actual tier, hopefully that might stop eventually.

I think whoever you're referring to is not someone that was ever worth your time. I'm sure you can find plenty of OU players that have pokemon they like in Ubers. I personally like Aegislash and Mega Lucario from a design aspect, and I've always been a bit partial to both Dialga and Zekrom for their unique typing and keep wishing that mons with their typing would be released in OU (with different stats of course). It's one thing for me to say "Zekrom for OU!" or even "Mega Lucario for OU!"; statements like these are usually born from ignorance of either why it was banned in OU or why we didn't bother testing it in OU. However, there's nothing wrong with liking mons from any tier. Any one who faults you simply for liking a banned Pokemon (i.e. an Uber mon) is someone whose opinion shouldn't weigh on you.

 

[TheTraininator]

I think whoever you're referring to is not someone that was ever worth your time. I'm sure you can find plenty of OU players that have pokemon they like in Ubers. I personally like Aegislash and Mega Lucario from a design aspect, and I've always been a bit partial to both Dialga and Zekrom for their unique typing and keep wishing that mons with their typing would be released in OU (with different stats of course). It's one thing for me to say "Zekrom for OU!" or even "Mega Lucario for OU!"; statements like these are usually born from ignorance of either why it was banned in OU or why we didn't bother testing it in OU. However, there's nothing wrong with liking mons from any tier. Any one who faults you simply for liking a banned Pokemon (i.e. an Uber mon) is someone whose opinion shouldn't weigh on you.

True that. I freaking love Mega Rayquaza since, going up with Gen 3, Raqyquaza was my Mewtwo in a way, (though I had Fire Red too so that comparison isn't terribly accurate,) and his Mega makes him even more remarkable looking and more relevant than ever before... but holy fuck Game Freak, you have to have SOME level of balance, even among obviously broken Pokemon.

EDIT: Oh, and as for OU banned Pokemon, I like Mega Kangaskhan too. Kanga was one of my favorite Pokemon growing up for design and for how hard it was to freaking catch; when I got one, it felt like a huge achievement for me. I thought its Mega concept was hugely creative; instead of having it grow bigger or scarier, allow its baby to join the fight for a literal double team! Plus, now Kanga could finally be a relevant competitive threat! Unfortunately, I among many other realized it was far too ridiculous, and willingly saw it leave the tier for the sake of an actually playable metagame.

 

[Talpr0ne]

You mean that small percentage of OU players that think Ubers is a banlist?

What resides in Ubers is still decided exclusively by banning things from OU, and usage isn't a factor in any way, shape or form; this is the literal definition of a banlist. Sure, it can also be considered a tier, since it also does bans, even though once in ten blue moons, and it is represented in competitions such as SPL, but claiming that it isn't a banlist at all is flat out wrong.
Short story, Ubers is a banlist by OU's point of view and a tier by Ubers' point of view.

 

[The Legend Waker]

And the overwhelming percetage of non-Smogon players.

I'm vulnerable to peoples' opinions.

Me, too...

 

[Aberforth]

What resides in Ubers is still decided exclusively by banning things from OU, and usage isn't a factor in any way, shape or form; this is the literal definition of a banlist. Sure, it can also be considered a tier, since it also does bans, even though once in ten blue moons, and it is represented in competitions such as SPL, but claiming that it isn't a banlist at all is flat out wrong.
Short story, Ubers is a banlist by OU's point of view and a tier by Ubers' point of view.

The problem with this sort of thing is that it perpetrates the view that Ubers is *just* a banlist, and not an actual tier worthy of the same sort of respect that other tiers get. Yes, the mons that can only be used in Ubers are the ones that are banned from OU. But the metagame is very healthy, there are a lot of different pokemon in the Ubers tier (almost as many as there are exclusively OU mons, if I remember chaos's post correctly), and it does require skill in the metagame to become genuinely good at it. The idea that ubers is *just* a banlist makes ubers players feel as though their skills and accomplishments are being diminished under the 'fact' that ubers not a real tier, and therefore accomplishments there are not as impressive.

 

[BaffleBlend]

The problem with this sort of thing is that it perpetrates the view that Ubers is *just* a banlist, and not an actual tier worthy of the same sort of respect that other tiers get. Yes, the mons that can only be used in Ubers are the ones that are banned from OU. But the metagame is very healthy, there are a lot of different pokemon in the Ubers tier (almost as many as there are exclusively OU mons, if I remember chaos's post correctly), and it does require skill in the metagame to become genuinely good at it. The idea that ubers is *just* a banlist makes ubers players feel as though their skills and accomplishments are being diminished under the 'fact' that ubers not a real tier, and therefore accomplishments there are not as impressive.

My point exactly. Ubers is still seen by the majority as "lesser". If you told most people that you intended to use your Kangaskhan or Aegislash in a fair fight, you're going to get laughed at or scolded for it. Those species are typically seen as inferior due to their imbalance, species that only "noobs" or "casuals" would defend.

 

[ShyGuy1221]

I always considered OU like an Ultimate World Tournament for the best of the best and Ubers kinda like Valhalla where the Gods can fight each other unchained. Being banned from OU would be like ascending to Godhood. So it makes me laugh imagining that M-Ray somehow ascended out of Valhalla and all other Ubers are like "I didn't even know that was possible."

 

[warriorman222]

Just a small, nostalgia-driven suggestion: I think "Ubers" should now be renamed to "Prime Cup". Points to anyone who gets the reference.

#PCMasterRace

Jesus, that thing has 788 BEFORE double-counting the Special stat. Mega Rayquaza just has 780.

Not to mention the insane movepool. If every glitchmon was usable, this thing would be in AG before I could blink. This thing has TM23 with 255 Power, that drains hp (ignore the 33% accuracy). That's essentially an OHKO move that drains hp and with little more accuracy.

I am honestly one of the worst players you could see. Even I could avoid that.

It adds alternative win methods other than KILL THEIR TEAM. Which goes against the game. It's like saying you can win because you smashed their computer screen so they DCed.

 

[KittiCat9000]

Finally.
We have freedom.
Bring it on. My body is ready.
*shuffles to corner with Diancie*
Let the games begin!

 

[Luigi Bros.]

Just a quick question: Was there really a best set (SD, DD, Double Dance, Mixed) and Nature (Adamant or Jolly) for Mega Ray?

 

[TheTraininator]

Just a quick question: Was there really a best set (SD, DD, Double Dance, Mixed) and Nature (Adamant or Jolly) for Mega Ray?

I don't know about Anything Goes, but when Rayquaza was in Ubers most people would agree the best set was Swords Dance:

The Ascendant
########
name: The Ascendant
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Dragon Ascent
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Extremespeed
item: Life Orb
ability: Air Lock --> Delta Stream
nature: Jolly
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

The speed boost from Dragon Dance was hardly necessary when you have a +2 priority 80 base power move coming off of Life Orb boosted base 180 Attack, so it was often better to just run Swords Dance to make Rayquaza basically OHKO everything with Dragon Ascent.

 

[NeoFlame]

What will we do when Trollfreak releases something that breaks Anything Goes?

 

[Karxrida]

What will we do when Trollfreak releases something that breaks Anything Goes?

The tier's already broken, so nothing.

 

[FallenDeus]

Who the hell at Gamefreak even thought Mega Rayquaza was a good idea? How was a 800 BST Legendary (capable of holding an item) with Flying STAB without the Flying weaknesses a good idea and how the hell was this approved?

Anyway, AG sounds interesting, hopefully it isn't too overrun by OHKO move spam

Maybe because this game isn't balanced or revolves around the competitive scene? They are making a game for people to play for fun, they are making these games and pokemon for a certain groups meta-game... Like hell, this (smogon) isn't the official rule set but they should totally make their games and designs around it right?

 

[Disaster Area]

Yeah remembering that we're not the target audience for most of this and that when they do balance it's not for the cover legends and it's for VGC.

 

[Psynergy]

When the games themselves provide a full in-universe explanation for why Rayquaza can Mega Evolve without a stone (tl;dr Ray has unique superior biology), I'd have to imagine Game Freak was at least somewhat aware of what they were doing when they carried this out. I mean they didn't give him the "Literally God" treatment and officially call him Lord Rayquaza for nothing. If he's not going to be allowed in their official format regardless I don't see what reason they had to not make Mega Ray as broken as they did.

That aside he is supposed to be better than the Primals, I guess being better than Primal Groudon just happens to overlap with being too good for Smogon Ubers.