Always thought Nido learnt it in Gen 1
In Crystal you get a Moon Stone after Morty by going back to the Ruins of Alpha. An earlier Nidoking is better than a late one.
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GSC In-Game Tier List
- Thread starter Colonel M
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Not bad.
I think in the case of going towards Pryce first it isnt too bad for the playthrough. You obtain Gyarados early as well as a SpA / SpD boost. The Fly benefit barely saves much time honestly (going Chuck and co first) IMO though.
Still a good amount of research. Wonder if there is a faster way to calculate with badges affecting Pokemon.
I think in the case of going towards Pryce first it isnt too bad for the playthrough. You obtain Gyarados early as well as a SpA / SpD boost. The Fly benefit barely saves much time honestly (going Chuck and co first) IMO though.
Still a good amount of research. Wonder if there is a faster way to calculate with badges affecting Pokemon.
I am going to sound like a giant noob here in asking this: Can you explain this a little more simplistically? I know in Gen 1/2 you were given "buffs" when you won badges, but I thought that was to do with the strange way effort values work in those gens.Nidoking doesn't learn Dig until next gen... Nor does Stantler by the way (nor does his learn it ever in the later gens). Mud-Slap is too weak to take seriously, and Earthquake is heavily competed for.
What's the difference between GS Nido and C Nido? Aside from Crystal's move tutor, the Tohjo Falls Moon Stone is available in all three versions. It's not one of the stones you need a phone call for.
Also, I followed Colonel M's lead and took a look just how big the stat / type attack boosts are in this game as a result of getting different badges. Here are my discoveries until Kanto:
Assuming a Chuck -> Jasmine -> Pryce route for easier navigation with the Fly HM. You get a 9/8 boost to attack after Falkner, and a 9/8 boost to special attack after Pryce, plus you get a 9/8 boost for each type whose badge you possess, so phys attackers are at an advantage for a while. Also note that a lot of elemental types are not represented in Johto at all, and that the first 6 gyms are all physical.
This basically shows why normal-types using their STABs hurt as much as they do - besides good availability of moves (and really strong users thereof, like Tauros, Miltank, Stantler, Ursaring) and high-powered early Returns being there, you also get roughly a 26% bonus to attacks which is like half a STAB - hence using normal moves almost feels you're using super-effective coverage when done by STAB-users... Except the coverage is extended to everyone that's not a rock or steel type. This explains why Tauros and co. are as good as they appear to be.
Just something to look at and consider in the future; not sure if I should try to get Spearow into A tier by appealing to how early the 26% boosts to its STABs come, but it could help its case if we do investigate into that particular mon.
This graph you have produced, does it show that each badge you have gives a bigger bonus to certain types? Does this effect their raw stat or the base? Or is it like a psuedo battle buff? Does this graph show that Flying types have the best overall buffs? For example: The starters don't get any of the gym badge buffs until you beat Pryce if I am reading this right?
Wow, the stuff about the badges...
aren't Normal/Flying types kings in this game than? You can even get a "traded" Spearow if I am not mistaken(the one with the letter)
I mean, Spearow gets Return, Fly, Drill Peck and (lol) Mud-Slap
aren't Normal/Flying types kings in this game than? You can even get a "traded" Spearow if I am not mistaken(the one with the letter)
I mean, Spearow gets Return, Fly, Drill Peck and (lol) Mud-Slap
Not sure if it's been brought up yet, but it's worth noting that the time and date can be forcibly changed in G/S/C, which helps greatly for efficiently acquiring time-based stuff like morning Pokemon or the Return TM from Goldenrod.
Works for Crystal too, but with a more complex button combo (stolen from Bulbapedia):
Not sure if this would be considered an exploit, but the HGSS tier list factored in Primo's password eggs, so it's at least worth pointing out.
Works for Crystal too, but with a more complex button combo (stolen from Bulbapedia):
- Hold ↓, SELECT, and B
- Release ↓ and B, while still holding SELECT
- Hold ← and ↑, while still holding SELECT
- Release SELECT
Not sure if this would be considered an exploit, but the HGSS tier list factored in Primo's password eggs, so it's at least worth pointing out.
Assuming you use Crystal:
Sandshrew
and finally
Tentacool (maybe the only viable poison type, that's why)
Starters etc. doesn't matter
Water Stone may come at Route 42 in Crystal but not a gaurenteed way to get one until half-way through Kanto, will probably try Psyduck
Will need to be Saturday sometime though so I have enough time to do it all
Pretty much.
The best way to do it is through an exploit where you change your Daylight Savings Time settings and walk in and out. I would guess if you isolated to just her phone # it wouldn't take too long (Elm and co. won't call you unless it is story / money related).
I don't like trying to manipulate the game to get things. I know I did it with Nidoking but it made a point for Crystal.
If you do try Psyduck, I'd recommend waiting until after Surf before you add it. You can catch level 20-24 Golduck from the pond on Route 35, and I think that would be better than catching a Psyduck and grinding it to 30+ to evolve it. Golduck actually comes at the same time as Lapras does, except that it doesn't require as much back-tracking, it comes at a higher level, it learns Ice Punch before Lapras gets Icy Wind/Ice Beam, and can learn all 3 Water HMs (unlike Lapras, Feraligatr, and Quagsire, who all miss out on Waterfall in GSC -_-). Lapras is probably better in the long run, but I think Golduck looks promising.
Golduck also has Confusion I might add. That...isn't so bad in the beginning...I mean against the incredible amount of poison types.
Also what I meant about Tentacool was Stab SLUDGE BOMB before someone doesn't understand what I meant by viable
Also what I meant about Tentacool was Stab SLUDGE BOMB before someone doesn't understand what I meant by viable
Well the thing with that is most Poison-types would take more damage from STAB Surf or Ice Punch, which pretty much limits Confusion's usefulness to Tentacool, Tentacruel and Qwilfish. So aside from those 3 and Poliwrath, Golduck probably shouldn't be using Confusion much.
Tentacool/Tentacruel would probably take similar or more damage from a physical move anyway.
Tentacool/Tentacruel would probably take similar or more damage from a physical move anyway.
What do you mean by Ice Punch? Only Zubat would be hit harder as a Poison type which is running around, I don't know any Nidoking/queen trainer in Johto(maybe Kanto though)
Golduck gets Strength and as mentioned, all Water HM's. That's neat. If you give it Surf and Tentacool Waterfall(if possible), you covered easily most HM's even with a main team, that's pretty cool
Golduck gets Strength and as mentioned, all Water HM's. That's neat. If you give it Surf and Tentacool Waterfall(if possible), you covered easily most HM's even with a main team, that's pretty cool
If your non-STAB coverage move has 50 BP, then it's kinda crap no matter what it is and you will fill your moveslots with something different. Nail those fighting and poison types with Return instead, Surfing most things for far superior damage.
Nido trainers can be found in Mt Mortar, just outside of it, and a little east on your way to Lake of Rage, for example. Not like it matters as you would Surf them instead of using Confusion.
Nido trainers can be found in Mt Mortar, just outside of it, and a little east on your way to Lake of Rage, for example. Not like it matters as you would Surf them instead of using Confusion.
I mainly mentioned Ice Punch for the Grass/Poison-types. Confusion is obviously more powerful against those guys than Surf, but Ice Punch hits them even harder than Confusion which makes using Confusion against Grass/Poison-types kinda pointless.
Grass/Poison types? I only know the bellsprouts in the beginning as something ""mandatory""(not rly mandatory) which has this type combination.
Lucchini, Return is saved for Fearow/Spearow(for the test run). But Strength is a good replacement anyways.
Confusion has low BP, but if you would get it in the beginning it atleast seperates it from other water types. Confusion is still 100BP against all Poison after all, not bad
Lucchini, Return is saved for Fearow/Spearow(for the test run). But Strength is a good replacement anyways.
Confusion has low BP, but if you would get it in the beginning it atleast seperates it from other water types. Confusion is still 100BP against all Poison after all, not bad
Every badge buffs its respective type by 9/8, and you also get a boost to attack upon defeating Falkner with the special attack buff arriving late when Pryce is defeated.
It appears that the attack/sp. atk. buff boosts the stat itself, while the move type buff factors into the modifier together with STAB / critical / effectiveness modifiers. Even then, considering we always simplified Explosions as doubling in damage prior to gen 5, I think it's simpler to just multiply the two coefficients when they stack, for simplicity's sake.
I got the information here:
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Badge#Stat_boost
Look into the stat boost and type boost sections.
Didn't actually test it myself, but it might not be that hard to do if you start a new run.
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Badge#Stat_boost
Look into the stat boost and type boost sections.
Didn't actually test it myself, but it might not be that hard to do if you start a new run.
Beat Lance with Typhlosion / Trade Fearow / Sandslash.
Typloshion still epic. If Flame Wheel came earlier, would be S. Shame really.
Trade Fearow. Wow. This thing with Return just hurts. Started to fall away late in the E4 with some level disadvantage (went in with all at 40) but it hurts.
Sandslash. Regretting not giving it EQ (stuck with Dig) but Defense Curl / Rollout destroys early.
Will go into more detail after Red. But so far A+, B/A-, C+/B respectively.
Typloshion still epic. If Flame Wheel came earlier, would be S. Shame really.
Trade Fearow. Wow. This thing with Return just hurts. Started to fall away late in the E4 with some level disadvantage (went in with all at 40) but it hurts.
Sandslash. Regretting not giving it EQ (stuck with Dig) but Defense Curl / Rollout destroys early.
Will go into more detail after Red. But so far A+, B/A-, C+/B respectively.
So we do need to decide as far as the stones. Personally I'm okay with the stone glitch so long as there's a way to somewhat reliably rig it (say as I mentioned above). This is worth testing and I may look into it.
Aside from that, I think we do need to discuss the following in certain tier placements:
- Psyduck to A. I actually can buy it. Having access to Ice Punch really helps for a Water-type (no cost of Icy Wind / grinding for Blizzard or Ice Beam) and Golduck is powerful enough to get away with too.
- Spearow to A as well. Spearow (both Trade and non-trade) are legitimately good up until late game as pointed out. Spearow caught before the traded one is available has the upper hand on Bugsy (STAB Peck hurts) and Fearow does well in field fights as well as a couple other gyms (does decently against Morty, well versus Chuck, can at least dent things against Pryce and Clair if absolutely necessary).
- Babies to about C max. At least at the moment - I don't think they're hatching reasonably fast and, even once they do, it requires some grinding to catch up. Magby, Elekid, and Smoochum also suffer from being so-so until Level 30 when they evolve. Friendship evolutions are a pain in the ass too.
Tyrogue might be the rare exception but that's a pretty big if. One thing that helps is that Tyrogue can possibly be obtained earlier and at a more reasonable time in the game. Tyrogue should just aim to go as Hitmonlee if possible. This way Hitmonlee has access to STAB Hi Jump Kick and should be able to smash through a lot of Pokemon - barring maybe Team Rocket Grunts since Dizzy Punch 2HKOes. Still, I think he's with the same boat as the other babies and should just drop.
- Chikorita to C. I think, as many of us stated, Chikorita is really not an efficient Pokemon and Grass-type is complete ass in this game. Chikorita contributes on the field here and there but, honestly, its gym advantages are really small.
- Golem to S. I normally don't like slower Pokemon in the highest of tiers; however, Golem is one of those rare exceptions that just stands out well throughout the entire game. It's easy to sandbag Graveler out of S - 90 base Attack is really so-so and its SpD of 45 is atrocious. Golem, though, is much stronger with base 120 Attack and a more respectable SpD stat of 65. Golem almost never struggles through the game barring the Grass- and Water-types; the former being rather uncommon (and some even lack Grass-type moves) while the latter are easy to pick out and, yes, even sometimes these lack Water-type attacks. Golem is notable for having a solid movepool with STAB Rock Throw early in the game as well as STAB Magnitude. Defense Curl can be kept so Golem can abuse Rollout OR one could equip Strength on Golem and find a fourth move (hell Self-Destruct can work as an emergency button).
- Wooper to A. Access to STAB Surf, early enough Earthquake to where it saves a TM, Ice Punch access, only minor con is its so-so defenses.Can also use Mud-Slap and Dig reasonably well thanks to STAB.
- Possible - Chinchou A. This one kind of requires a detour but it does do exceptionally well against three gyms that it follows. Lanturn is kind of meh but at least Spark / Surf kind of help it.
Aside from that, I think we do need to discuss the following in certain tier placements:
- Psyduck to A. I actually can buy it. Having access to Ice Punch really helps for a Water-type (no cost of Icy Wind / grinding for Blizzard or Ice Beam) and Golduck is powerful enough to get away with too.
- Spearow to A as well. Spearow (both Trade and non-trade) are legitimately good up until late game as pointed out. Spearow caught before the traded one is available has the upper hand on Bugsy (STAB Peck hurts) and Fearow does well in field fights as well as a couple other gyms (does decently against Morty, well versus Chuck, can at least dent things against Pryce and Clair if absolutely necessary).
- Babies to about C max. At least at the moment - I don't think they're hatching reasonably fast and, even once they do, it requires some grinding to catch up. Magby, Elekid, and Smoochum also suffer from being so-so until Level 30 when they evolve. Friendship evolutions are a pain in the ass too.
Tyrogue might be the rare exception but that's a pretty big if. One thing that helps is that Tyrogue can possibly be obtained earlier and at a more reasonable time in the game. Tyrogue should just aim to go as Hitmonlee if possible. This way Hitmonlee has access to STAB Hi Jump Kick and should be able to smash through a lot of Pokemon - barring maybe Team Rocket Grunts since Dizzy Punch 2HKOes. Still, I think he's with the same boat as the other babies and should just drop.
- Chikorita to C. I think, as many of us stated, Chikorita is really not an efficient Pokemon and Grass-type is complete ass in this game. Chikorita contributes on the field here and there but, honestly, its gym advantages are really small.
- Golem to S. I normally don't like slower Pokemon in the highest of tiers; however, Golem is one of those rare exceptions that just stands out well throughout the entire game. It's easy to sandbag Graveler out of S - 90 base Attack is really so-so and its SpD of 45 is atrocious. Golem, though, is much stronger with base 120 Attack and a more respectable SpD stat of 65. Golem almost never struggles through the game barring the Grass- and Water-types; the former being rather uncommon (and some even lack Grass-type moves) while the latter are easy to pick out and, yes, even sometimes these lack Water-type attacks. Golem is notable for having a solid movepool with STAB Rock Throw early in the game as well as STAB Magnitude. Defense Curl can be kept so Golem can abuse Rollout OR one could equip Strength on Golem and find a fourth move (hell Self-Destruct can work as an emergency button).
- Wooper to A. Access to STAB Surf, early enough Earthquake to where it saves a TM, Ice Punch access, only minor con is its so-so defenses.Can also use Mud-Slap and Dig reasonably well thanks to STAB.
- Possible - Chinchou A. This one kind of requires a detour but it does do exceptionally well against three gyms that it follows. Lanturn is kind of meh but at least Spark / Surf kind of help it.
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I'm not a big fan of glitches but if it makes some more Pokemon viable then I'm alright with it. But I haven't tried the glitch enough to see how reliably it is
Agree here. The Traded Spearow has some perks of super fast levelling but having a Spearow earlier may counteract that though. Being easy to level without much grinding is better. I'll finish off my 2nd run through and see if the Traded Spearow is worth going up to S but I strongly sense it won't.
Agree here too. Graveler A, Golem S.
I can do those two next. Add in non-trade Spearow and Chikorita for a 4 man team?
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