Does Mega Latias deserve A rank? I think this was touched on before actually but forgotten so I am just gonna bring it up again and I think it probably should be dropped to A- rank.
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
- Thread starter trc
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What's the reasoning behind Mega Aerodactyl in A- rank?
Very few of those would qualify as foolproof switch ins. Checks, yes, but straight counters, no. The problem with Clefable is often a less exaggerated version of the problem with Greninja...what exactly do you do once it is already in if you don't know what it is running? The idea that Clefable needs to be able to decimate everyone and everything is not required to become S rank. Movepool diversity creates massive issues when playing against her. The difference between here and Greninja is she is slow and bulkier while he is fast, pretty frail, and can complete ignore his defenses due to his speed. He also has a lot more turn one power. However, the single moment Clefable gets to +1/+1 with Calm Mind, especially if she is running a life orb, the problems will mount.
Before I even get into some of the issues I have with the claim that all these pokemon deal with any common Clefable set, lets look at the ability usage on Clefable in the OU Suspect Test ladder...
60% Magic Guard, 40% Unaware. 95% leftovers, 5% life orb. Sometimes, the preference for lefties at such a clip shocks me, as I really love life orb, but I do know they guarantee prevention of some important 2HKOs and allow more calm minds.
99% run moonblast, 73% run softboiled or moonlight, 61% Calm Mind, 40% Flamethrower or Fire Blast, 33% Heal Bell or Aromatherapy, 25% Wish/Protect, 13% Stealth Rock, 10% Stored Power, 9% Thunder Wave, 14% Other. My guess is prominent features of the other includes alternate offensive coverage moves and cosmic power. I cannot be sure, but feel it is likely.
Now, let us get into some of the issues I have with calling these members checks or counters:
You mention Clefable will be played conservatively, which is true. Therefore, it likely will not be coming in on these threats, so let us look at the potential to counter. Crit hax aside, of course.
Landorus-I cannot really threaten her after a single calm mind, which means he isn't really a counter. Tail Glow Manaphy is likely to need to set up rain and tail glow before getting going, so while she cannot switch in, he is not going to enjoy getting in and setting up either, as Moonblast can 2HKO for LO variants and with SpDef drop hax, can even kill with leftovers. Even so, unaware users laugh at Manaphy hysterically. I am not sure what exactly Amoongus does to Clefable. Clear Smog? Sludge Bomb doesn't exactly hit with ferocity. Tentacruel can sponge attacks, but will likely lose the boosting war to Calm Mind Clefable. Lastly, Gothitelle cannot be a check since nothing is coming in on her really, but she is certainly not a counter to a Clefable who uses calm mind first.
This leaves just Magnezone, Jirachi, and Mega-Saur.
SpA/Spd invested Scarfed TrapZone has an 82% chance to get KOd by a +1 flamethrower for the life orb variants and doesn't even guarantee a 2HKO with flash cannon on the leftover variants. This is its most common set. Specs set can do a lot better, but in terms of momentum, being locked into a steel type move is asking for trouble. Jirachi can flinch it's way to victory, but generally doesn't appreciate taking a flamethrower and especially suffers if affected by a burn.
Mega-Venusaur actually is quite good against the non-Cosmic Power sets. Offensive variants prevent Clefable from having a chance to Calm Mind stall Venusaur out of a job, but do not appreciate the potential of being hit by flamethrower on the switch. Defensive variants cannot guarantee the 2HKO with bomb, allowing Clefable to generate a second Calm Mind, which could eventually lead to a Clefable win.
All in all, there is no guaranteed counter, which is why you have to stock multiple pokemon who cause Clefable some problems on one team. Sometimes, this just happens with your teams, sometimes you have to tweak to do it. I don't necessarily believe Clefable has magically made pokemon viable or unusable, but merely enhanced/neutered pokemon who already had presence in OU. She isn't fool proof or unstoppable, but she is a snowball rolling downhill when she gets going even after just a boost or two.
This isn't even to say that I for sure believe Clefable should move to S rank over A+ Rank. I pretty much sit on the fence and could be moved either way. She is either going to be one of the best A+ pokemon or probably the worst S ranked pokemon. Great company either way.
Clefable is the perfect example of a pokemon who doesn't appear to be overwhelming in any way when you look at her stats, but she has just the right type, just the right stats in just the right places, a massively useful and diverse movepool, and lives in just the right metagame to be a force to be reckoned with.
I already enjoy reading the arguments on both sides and I will continue to enjoy them, knowing that they are just really wonderful Pokemon discussions for the most part, and, in the end, her position is not likely to change her OU usage as she certainly isn't suspect material.
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I think Glalie is fine where it's at and would even be fine with it dropping to C-. It just absolutely falls on its ass against offense and against balance and stall it's hard to call it a wallbreaker when it's limited to ice and ground coverage exclusively while having to kill itself to break a single wall. Ideally its Explosion is quite scary, but I've used it a decent amount and have spectated battles of high-rated players using it and I've never seen it actually get the chance to Explode on anything. TFL was using an interesting team with Tailwind Latios and even then I haven't seen it manage to do much more than beat the shit out of itself with Double-Edge and then die to one of the multitude of threats that aren't scared of a painfully predictable pokemon with an awful typing, decent at best bulk, and only 100 speed. Glalie's risk-reward might be acceptable if it wasn't a mega, but the fact that it is means you're giving up a teamslot that could be used on a pokemon which could put consistent pressure on your opponent and be a threat throughout the match and instead using it on Glalie which is going to be a threat for maybe 2 or 3 turns max. If you really want an offensive Ice-type with ground coverage then there's always Mamoswine, who also offers a much stronger Ice Shard should it carry Life Orb, utility in the form of Stealth Rock and a Taunt immunity should you choose to use the lead set, and an Ice-type STAB that doesn't kill itself regardless. Hey, it even has Freeze-Dry for Rotom.
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This.
Clefable is different from other A+ Rank pokemon because the best checks it has risk being crippled right away or taking more than half of their health on incoming since you don't know what moveset it is currently running.
How great it can screw an opponents strategy depending on the set it is running is pretty amazing, imagine your opponent trying to set up on you becase they think your Clef has Magic Guard, or them trying to Stall you with Toxic when he/she thinks it is running Unaware, there are very few pokemons that can influence that much how an opponent plays.
Base 150 speed, and the Hone Claws set is really good.
Amazing speed which let this thing outspeed the whole unboosted meta(even some scarfers), unique typing and movepool which let it functions in different roles and different team archetypes. He gained a bit from the fact that the ORAS metagame became faster but still nothing outspeed it, so he can check or revenge kill a lot of mons.
A few nominations of my own-
Diggersby to A-rank
Diggersby is amazing wallbreaker, with his two stabs it can 2hko 90% of the meta, and he have priority stab to deal with faster mons. With the growing mega slot competition having a non mega which can hit this hard is really valuable. Not only this, in the ORAS meta he got great coverage moves which now let him deal with what used to be his counters-
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 180-214 (53.8 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Talking about stupidly strong.
Scizor to B+ - rank
Fairies slowly becoming the main force in the meta, and steel typing becoming more importent offensively and defensively. He can run a lot of sets and be effective-choice band, bulky SD and defog are all good ones.
I definitely agree with the suggestion to move tornadus-t up to A- rank.
By now everyone realizes that if greninja leaves the tier then pokemon with speed tiers like raikou, pidgeot, starmie, and azelf have a new lease on life and significantly outspeed the next best offensive water (keldeo) not to mention the flood of 110s out there like gallade, metagross, latis, and such. Tornadus turns it up a notch and outspeeds even those things while hitting perfectly hard with 100/110 offenses and high base power moves.
Flying is simply the best attacking type and tornadus can complement it with Superpower, Heat Wave, Knock Off, U-Turn, Sludge Wave, Psychic, and Grass Knot.
Offensive sets with a life orb hit really damn hard for such a fast pokemon that isn't even a mega, and are even more useful in rain teams.
Restrict your search to pokemon -faster- than 115 base speed. Exclude megas and ubers. Take base power of moves into account. You will find that nothing in that category hits harder than Tornadus except for Hawlucha, Meloetta-P, Swellow, and Weavile. (he ties, offensively, with some other things like Jolteon Thunder though)
Fast and strong.
Take note: such a set is pretty comparable to a greninja-lite due to the speed in combination with strong coverage moves. Knock off is similar to dark pulse in power, Superpower and Focus Blast is usually stronger than low kick, Heat wave is stronger than HP Fire. All even factoring in protean. Finally, Hurricane is stronger than ninja's hydro pump, is a better attacking type, and has confusion hax at the cost of 10% less accuracy. Greninja is obviously stronger with psychic, poison, grass, and ice coverage. But torn has more going for it than just his offensive set.
More important are the defensive sets that give a perfect mixture of speed bulk and power. Regenerator and U-turn give it awfully useful pivot opportunities and he is by far one of the best knock off users, because he will usually outspeed the opponent and knock off power boosting items like life orbs and choice specs before taking the hit. Assault Vest and HP investment gives him amazing bulk for such a powerful and fast poke.
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 117-138 (32.4 - 38.2%)
Such an asset can check a wide variety of relevant threats because it's difficult to ohko the thing but meanwhile torn usually outspeeds and gets the 2hko.
Here are some emergency examples:
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 300-354 (83.1 - 98%)
+2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 288-340 (79.7 - 94.1%)
Torn wins these fights 1v1 which cannot be said at all for other fast stuff like latis, aero, raikou, sceptile, whatever.
Meanwhile here are more reasonable calc where torn is switching into something that has become common and annoying
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 117-139 (32.4 - 38.5%)
0 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 116-138 (32.1 - 38.2%)
You'll get that back as soon as you switch out.
By now everyone realizes that if greninja leaves the tier then pokemon with speed tiers like raikou, pidgeot, starmie, and azelf have a new lease on life and significantly outspeed the next best offensive water (keldeo) not to mention the flood of 110s out there like gallade, metagross, latis, and such. Tornadus turns it up a notch and outspeeds even those things while hitting perfectly hard with 100/110 offenses and high base power moves.
Flying is simply the best attacking type and tornadus can complement it with Superpower, Heat Wave, Knock Off, U-Turn, Sludge Wave, Psychic, and Grass Knot.
Offensive sets with a life orb hit really damn hard for such a fast pokemon that isn't even a mega, and are even more useful in rain teams.
Restrict your search to pokemon -faster- than 115 base speed. Exclude megas and ubers. Take base power of moves into account. You will find that nothing in that category hits harder than Tornadus except for Hawlucha, Meloetta-P, Swellow, and Weavile. (he ties, offensively, with some other things like Jolteon Thunder though)
Fast and strong.
Take note: such a set is pretty comparable to a greninja-lite due to the speed in combination with strong coverage moves. Knock off is similar to dark pulse in power, Superpower and Focus Blast is usually stronger than low kick, Heat wave is stronger than HP Fire. All even factoring in protean. Finally, Hurricane is stronger than ninja's hydro pump, is a better attacking type, and has confusion hax at the cost of 10% less accuracy. Greninja is obviously stronger with psychic, poison, grass, and ice coverage. But torn has more going for it than just his offensive set.
More important are the defensive sets that give a perfect mixture of speed bulk and power. Regenerator and U-turn give it awfully useful pivot opportunities and he is by far one of the best knock off users, because he will usually outspeed the opponent and knock off power boosting items like life orbs and choice specs before taking the hit. Assault Vest and HP investment gives him amazing bulk for such a powerful and fast poke.
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 117-138 (32.4 - 38.2%)
Such an asset can check a wide variety of relevant threats because it's difficult to ohko the thing but meanwhile torn usually outspeeds and gets the 2hko.
Here are some emergency examples:
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 300-354 (83.1 - 98%)
+2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 288-340 (79.7 - 94.1%)
Torn wins these fights 1v1 which cannot be said at all for other fast stuff like latis, aero, raikou, sceptile, whatever.
Meanwhile here are more reasonable calc where torn is switching into something that has become common and annoying
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 117-139 (32.4 - 38.5%)
0 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 116-138 (32.1 - 38.2%)
You'll get that back as soon as you switch out.
I fail to see the reasoning of ever using Mence as well. There are a lot other, more viable Dragon Dancer out their, even if most of them are Megas, I don't really see any use for Mence over them.
The Scarf set is only threatening after it gets the moxie boost, where I would rather use Garchomp who has no SR weakness and is faster.
That only leaves it with its defensive/supportive sets, which make me wonder if they are even viable?
The Scarf set is only threatening after it gets the moxie boost, where I would rather use Garchomp who has no SR weakness and is faster.
That only leaves it with its defensive/supportive sets, which make me wonder if they are even viable?
What I don't get is Latios and Thundurus moving down from S to A+, as well as Mega Gallade going down to A. I mean, shouldn't Latios be even better 'cos of Greninja's potential ban? And also Mega Gallade... why?
Reasoning was given in the rank change post and we don't change ranks on the possibility of something getting banned. For all we know Greninja might not leave on Monday.
Oh lol I didn't see the reasoning :'(
Have you got any reasoning for this or...?
ben gay I'm interested in what you said about Volcarona (as you might guess from my pic). You seemed to be talking primarily about offensive sets. Do you think bulky sets are as viable in this meta or do you think every volc should be offensive? In X/Y months ago I preferred the bulky set because it had a chance of setting up on and beating many things it otherwise couldn't but I've been away for a bit and want to know more about how volc fits in this current meta.
Honchkrow is actually pretty good but is unranked since it's entirely outclassed by Bisharp. Bisharp hits just as hard, is not stealth rock weak, doesn't have paper defences and Defiant puts heavy opposing pressure for intimidators and defoggers.
For Honchkrow to get ranked, it should offer some niche to the OU metagame. But it doesn't since 95% of the time, you're better off just using Bisharp.
This is why I think Salamence is still ranked. The Moxie scarf set still provides a niche, which means that although it is mainly outclassed by other dragons as dragon dancers, the Moxie scarf set still provides something viable that isnt totally outclassed by others.
And to elaborate on Notorious' argument, the only niche Honchkrow has over Bisharp is the ability to run mixed as well as Moxie, but this still won't suddenly make Honchkrow C rank imo.
Not sure for 100% but i think this is the the reason for each one-
Salamence-a good non-mega Ddancer, and actually not such a bad sweeper.
Venomoth-QD baton pass.
Cloyster-decent shell smash sweeper.
Meloetta-I think its the AV set, but in her case I'm not really sure.
The thing is D rank is a rank for a really specific niche, so even pokemons like shedinja might find themselves on the list.
Tornadus-T
Tornadus-T is quite frankly, a very good Pokemon. It definitely deserves a higher rank than B, but at the same time I would hold on for going to A-. If Greninja is still in the tier, this thing wouldn't or shouldn't go to A-. Greninja does not only check 100% (Literally, all sets uses Ice Beam), but it will also get a kill if your not prepared. Not only that, but Tornadus-T really competes with Greninja, and Greninja obviously does a better job, even though Tornadus-T 6-0s shitass balanced and does a good amount against a well-made one, Greninja will pretty much at least take out 3 Pokemon out of Balanced if not prepared and that's with ease on a very good balanced team. Greninja also has more pressure on HO.
At the same time, I think Tornadus-T's amazing wallbreaking ability and the ability to easily pressure non-mega manectric/lopunny (Interestingly, Torn-T survives a Return from Mega Lopunny, with Regenerator, this makes him a solid check) HO thanks to its amazing speed, does make him viable and relatively easy to slap on a team. I definitely think it deserves at least B+.
Also, re-posting this since I still think Infernape deserves at least C+.
Tornadus-T is quite frankly, a very good Pokemon. It definitely deserves a higher rank than B, but at the same time I would hold on for going to A-. If Greninja is still in the tier, this thing wouldn't or shouldn't go to A-. Greninja does not only check 100% (Literally, all sets uses Ice Beam), but it will also get a kill if your not prepared. Not only that, but Tornadus-T really competes with Greninja, and Greninja obviously does a better job, even though Tornadus-T 6-0s shitass balanced and does a good amount against a well-made one, Greninja will pretty much at least take out 3 Pokemon out of Balanced if not prepared and that's with ease on a very good balanced team. Greninja also has more pressure on HO.
At the same time, I think Tornadus-T's amazing wallbreaking ability and the ability to easily pressure non-mega manectric/lopunny (Interestingly, Torn-T survives a Return from Mega Lopunny, with Regenerator, this makes him a solid check) HO thanks to its amazing speed, does make him viable and relatively easy to slap on a team. I definitely think it deserves at least B+.
Also, re-posting this since I still think Infernape deserves at least C+.
Infernape
I'm going to talk about Infernape a bit here, so bear with me for a bit.
Infernape, an interesting a Pokemon, a favorite of many, but doesn't do too good in OU. However, after using him a couple of times in different occasions. Infernape is actually better than expected. Part of the reason is because the increasing popularity of Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Heatran. And the slight decline of Lati@s.
Now many argue that Infernape has only a decent speed tier. That is not true, it has the same speed as KELDEO which is used a LOT in both Balanced, Bulky Offensive, and Hyper Offense.
Fire / Fighting combo is actually fantastic in offensive combo. First, the OU tier is really low on offensive Fire Types (Char Y is almost non-existent now, although a good wallbreaker) so Infernape is barely outshined/outclassed. Infernape has a 104 / 104 offense with a 108 Spe, which may seem mediocre, but with the combination of high power moves, like Fire Blast, Flare Blitz, and Close Combat, Infernape hits hard. And the number of Pokemon who want to take a LO hit from this guy are few.
Here's probably the best Infernape set in OU right now:
Infernape @ Life Orb
Ability: Iron Fist / Blaze
Evs: 200 Atk / 56 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Close Combat
- Grass Knot
- Flare Blitz
- Mach Punch / Fire Blast / Flamethrower
Here's what it can do:
Against Hyper Offensive:
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lopunny: 174-211 (64.2 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 343-406 (126.1 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 234-276 (81.8 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Just in case this is not banned)
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 252-299 (69.8 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (In Sand)
200 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Infernape Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Sharpedo: 226-268 (80.4 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 203-239 (63.6 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Scarf on the switch)
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 286-339 (103.2 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Weakened HO struggles a lot of vs. Infernape.
Against Balanced:
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 515-608 (146.3 - 172.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Scizor: 484-577 (141.1 - 168.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 567-671 (140.6 - 166.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery*
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery*
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 398-471 (103.3 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 416-494 (106.3 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 416-494 (102.9 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 369-437 (113.8 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
With enough team support (Rotom-W is a good teammate, for example, bringing slow Volt Switch to bring in Infernape), Infernape can definitely do a ton against Balanced.
And now, my favorite, against Stall:
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 447-530 (133.8 - 158.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 554-655 (86.2 - 102%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Sableye: 173-204 (56.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 463-546 (117.5 - 138.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Clefable: 183-216 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Guaranteed 2HKO if Flare Blitz)
200 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 161-191 (38 - 45.1%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Infernape is an amazing stallbreaker, not enough? It can also learn Taunt too. It only struggles against Mandibuzz and Tenta, the latter which is easily worn down and the former breaks under hazard support and some roll luck.
Those calcs were great, now of course there are couple of Pokemon that can solidly check Infernape. Azumarill only takes 40% from GK, so if hazards aren't up it can come and check it twice. Lati@s can come in and fire off Psyshock/Draco, if they have Roost they counter for days. Tentacruel is a solid check, but lacking recovery and taking a solid 27.4 - 32.4% from CC will eventually, especially with hazards, wear it down. Gengar outspeeds, is immune to Mach Punch, and can most of the time OHKO. Infernape is also worn down very fast through Life Orb, and Flare Blitz. His dismal HP and even more dismal defenses are also a great hinder to him, but overall he does a fantastic job against Stall, picks up weakened HO, and can do a ton against Balanced with some team support.
Now I'm not saying Infernape should be A rank. But it definitely deserved to be higher than a C.
I think C+ or B- is pretty fair for Infernape.
I do think Tornadus-T, Serperior, Clefable, should all move up, but this is all predicated on Greninja leaving the tier.
Therefore before people decide on what to do with these mons wait and see if Ninja is really banned.
Therefore before people decide on what to do with these mons wait and see if Ninja is really banned.
I would put serperior in C+ as a starting rank but I mean I clearly have no issue with B-. I think serperior is a pretty bad pokemon, having seen it in practice, since what people seem to overestimate is serperiors ability to force switches. Serperior is not immeditely thretening at all unless it is able to come in on a water or ground type, which in practice is not as common as some people are making it out to be. Sure on paper nothing likes switching into a +2 serperior with the right coverage moves, but I think it will struggle to ever get to that +2 simply because it needs a free switch to be effective. But even that being said IF it does come in with an optimal situation it can put in some work. So yeah C+ is whered Id put it.
And I will hold off on moving tornadus-t up until greninja leaves the tier, becuse when that happens I think tornadus will see a rank with a nice A in it.
And I will hold off on moving tornadus-t up until greninja leaves the tier, becuse when that happens I think tornadus will see a rank with a nice A in it.
Serperior is already C+ zzz
Whimsicott was decided on to rise because its plethora of support options which include but not limited to Encore, Tailwind, Stun Spore, Taunt, and Memento are and can be utilized very effectively in a way that makes already dangerous threats even more of a threat. Some examples to give you an idea is a HO team that utilizes Tailwind to turn Wall-Breakers into more definitive sweepers, think Charizard-Y and M-Gallade, instead of relying on a speed tier that gets outpaced by offense and your generic Scarf users. There's not exactly a specific set more so that it has a specific role that can prove to be useful and isn't as niche as what you would expect in the D rank category.
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