Could say the same for HP Fire and a Dugtrio buddy though.
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Pokémon Serperior
- Thread starter Youmu the Gardener
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Why should Heatran fear switching out. Scarf Heatran is faster than Jolly Dugtrio if I'm not mistaken and dugtrio does NOT want to be burned. Then again, Specs Heatran's Fireblast kills Dugtrio outright if it switches in. I guess my point is, Magnezone has a much easier time switching in.
Same, got a Serperior, Heatran, and Mega Gyarados team going, still switching around the last few members to find what pairs best, heh. Glare has proven very useful for crippling switch-ins, though I haven't gotten many chances to set up past +2 with Serperior yet. Heatran is pretty much the perfect partner for it, I agree.
I've been thinking of trying Serperior in UU, since his opportunities in OU are fairly limited, as effective as he may be when he gets going.
I agree, though I'd say Giga Drain, even more than just consistency (if lesser) recovery. It lets Serperior regain health while still attacking, which leaves fewer free turns for the opponent. Serperior obviously murders Stall, but its fast enough that I still want to keep its match with offense in mind, and Giga Drain offsets LO recoil without allowing an opponent to set up on Synthesis rather than be 2HKO'd by Giga Drain + Coverage move.
I think it's still a matter of team building. Also, Scarf Heatran is faster, but Dugtrio is still usually hitting it for 4x
252 Atk burned Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 224-266 (69.3 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dugtrio does have Sucker Punch among its options
252 Atk burned Dugtrio Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 30-36 (9.2 - 11.1%) -- possible 9HKO
Which just barely eeks out a KO with Rock damage
With Rocks, Heatran can't take a hit from LO Serperior anymore, even with its 4x resist, and is within easy kill range for priority. If Heatran goes out, Serperior's free to clean, since that last bit of Heatran's health comes off if it switches into it again.
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 45-53 (13.9 - 16.4%) -- possible 7HKO
And this is all the Scarf Set. Any other set is outsped and KO'd outright by Dugtrio.
It's a matter of team building, but I find my teams have bigger problems with Heatran than Ferro or Skarm. Also, it should be noted that dealing with the others requires not just Magnezone, but something to Knock off their Shed Shells, something the opponent WILL be aware of and be cautious about keeping in on potential carriers.
Also, I think you're missing the point with Dugtrio. Magnezone has an easier time switching in and staying alive against trapped targets, but Dugtrio doesn't need to do so. Dugtrio's one job is "trap Heatran, kill Heatran", and any other inflicted damage is usually a bonus. It doesn't enjoy being burned, but Heatran isn't going to burn it without being crippled to the point of losing as well (Scarf Tran runs Fire Blast, no Lava Plume or WoW, so no guarantees even). HP Ground deals with Heatran, Magnezone while HP Fire is better for Ferro, Scizor, Pinsir (in the absence of HP Rock), Celebi (Hit harder than DP, and stops Nasty Pass shenanigans), Skarmory, Breloom, Chesnaught, Grass types in general.
Granted, HP Ground's targets are decently common, but the things HP Fire helps with either tend to be harder stops, or are better able to exploit free turns while walling (Laying Hazards, Setting up, Defogging, or Subbing for one of Breloom's sets). Heatran and Magnezone are also relatively easier to prepare for: since they share similar weaknesses and both are slow, you're unlikely to see them both on the same team, which means Dugtrio only has to deal with one per team as Serp's partner.
I've paired my serperior with wonder skin venomoth works like a charm just make sure you take out or atlas severely weaken any heatrans and mega alterias
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Cartridge game vids don't really do anything for us.. there is no rating so for all we know both players may suck. Venomoth isn't really any good either.. even the typing syngery with serp is weak.
i c i c said the blind man
3v3 yeah definitely wouldn't put the two on the same team but 6v6 they work
My reason to not like Giga Drain on is that the usual switches against it are mons that usually can deal with a wrong prediction and attack back (Heatran,Latis,Chansey,Clefable for example) so Giga Drain doesn't really help with Serpeiror problems, regaining HP is not a big issue since you should be using it for Cleaning after Talonflame,Heatran,etc. are gone, therefore wasting a turn on recovering when you could be going for a +2 or crippling an incoming check seems not that appealing.
I mean of course if you are against a Quagsire you are going to recover all your health, but doing it in the first turn is bad because a lot of mons can switch to Serperior if he is not at +2, and I don't see against what pokemon are you going to be using Giga Drain since as stated before the usual things that come to check Serperior ar mons like Heatran and Talonflame who not care about it, but instead are crippled by Glare(Talonflame still can birdspam tough).
I can be wrong, but in the matches I have used Serp I have never been in a position that using Giga drain is beneficial.
I'm not referring to something to deal with checks, so much as a better tool once Serperior gets into its job. In late game, Serperior will logically be down on some health at least. Giga Drain allows him to clean what's left without the LO and potential counterattacks/priority cutting his cleaning job short. Obviously he'd set up first, but Giga Drain is an alternate STAB that ensures he isn't on a timer once he gets to cleaning.
I don't see this possible because you'll still get wrecked hard by Flying-types (Talonflame), Fire-types (Charizard), and other threats that were mentioned earlier. Plus as mentioned by RoyalDispenser, Venomoth is a very mediocre Pokemon to use and it creates more squishy Pokemon in your team that the opponent can easily bulldoze through. If you really want to show that Venomoth is a viable partner with Serperior, I suggest using Pokemon Showdown, start climbing the ladder with those two, and post thoughtful replays (Although to be honest, you aren't going to get very far).
Also, don't double post and avoid using negative remarks please ^_^
(Sorry for not being active on this thread; university life has been very bothersome lately.)
The problem is that in reality almost all the damage Serperior will have is from hazards and LO, since almost any attack that he takes will leave him dead, you should at least have 8 turns of attacking moves if we take SR into account, and if we consider that sometimes you will be using Glare if Giga drain is not used(which doesn't produce recoil) you should need it even less.
Serperior has a difficult time when trying to heal in practice, Altaria,Charizard,Metagross,Latis,Clefable make sure of this, since if they come in the turn when you are trying to heal instead of crippling or going for Leaf Storm/Dragon Pulse/HP Fire or Ground you will be in trouble, and that hampers the effectiveness when trying to clean late game.
Scarf is hardly the most common Heatran variant, Dugtrio commonly has a sash and will still 2HKO any Heatran variant even while burned.
It can be doubled into of the Heatran switch is obvious too, but you're right that Magnezone will have a much easier time switching in (although it doesn't like switching into Scizor much as it fears Superpower and Knock Off).
Personally, I'm think the below sub set is almost brokenly powerful right now:
Serperior @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 12 Def / 252 SpA / 244 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Substitute
As many have said, pair it with a trapper (HP Fire Magnezone) to get rid of those pesky steel types. Given Serperior's great speed sub allows you to easily scout for moves, protect against status or use it on the switch into a "counter" - allowing you to survive any priority or get a +2 even on a x4 grass resist as they take down your sub (getting rid of any Air Balloons in the process) then hit with a coverage move. Even things like bulky resists like Mega Altaria can be 2HKOed by Leaf Storm at the +2 after rocks (even without Life Orb), easily allowing you to muscle past things that would ordinarily check it with it's crazy speed tier. At the +6, nothing can really wall it - even Chansey (4HP 252 SpDef) is 2HKOed after Rocks.
I'm honestly expecting Sap Sippers to shoot up exponentially now just so people have a chance at walling this thing.
Serperior @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 12 Def / 252 SpA / 244 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Substitute
As many have said, pair it with a trapper (HP Fire Magnezone) to get rid of those pesky steel types. Given Serperior's great speed sub allows you to easily scout for moves, protect against status or use it on the switch into a "counter" - allowing you to survive any priority or get a +2 even on a x4 grass resist as they take down your sub (getting rid of any Air Balloons in the process) then hit with a coverage move. Even things like bulky resists like Mega Altaria can be 2HKOed by Leaf Storm at the +2 after rocks (even without Life Orb), easily allowing you to muscle past things that would ordinarily check it with it's crazy speed tier. At the +6, nothing can really wall it - even Chansey (4HP 252 SpDef) is 2HKOed after Rocks.
I'm honestly expecting Sap Sippers to shoot up exponentially now just so people have a chance at walling this thing.
In my opinion Serperior will fall short for OU
Reasons being it's bad SP. ATT. (75 bad is not good), and while it's speed is good, it is forced to run timid or a scarf thus not allowing him to take full advantage of the +2 boosts
Sticky web isn't that common in OU, is more common in UU, so it will be a bit situational
It's defenses aren't also huge, they are decent with 75/95/95, but still it gets ton of damage from u-turners, T-Flame, also implying all the pokemon that can wall him just by typing in the OU metagame (Dragonite, Magnezone)
It has limited coverage and even tho it has Glare I don't believe it is going to be a strong asset in OU
Reasons being it's bad SP. ATT. (75 bad is not good), and while it's speed is good, it is forced to run timid or a scarf thus not allowing him to take full advantage of the +2 boosts
Sticky web isn't that common in OU, is more common in UU, so it will be a bit situational
It's defenses aren't also huge, they are decent with 75/95/95, but still it gets ton of damage from u-turners, T-Flame, also implying all the pokemon that can wall him just by typing in the OU metagame (Dragonite, Magnezone)
It has limited coverage and even tho it has Glare I don't believe it is going to be a strong asset in OU
The main problem w/ this guy is that Grass really has awful coverage. So many resistances. And Dragon Pulse and Hidden Power don't have nearly enough power to provide decent coverage. It can be amazing, but you have to build your entire team around it and bring it in at the right moment to sweep.
Just to let people know, since I've seen this a lot, Dragonite does not wall Serperior. If it tries to switch in, you break the Multiscale with Leaf Storm, and then KO it with a +2 Dragon Pulse.
Also, Dragonite doesn't kill unless it's Banded. (I mean you die from Life Orb afterwards but whatever)
After toying around with Serperior for a while, anybody who says it's going to be bad in OU obviously hasn't used it yet. For it to be efficient, you have to remove the checks first. Serperior isn't meant to sweep through every team. It's used as a late game cleaner guys.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 335-395 (103.7 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also, Dragonite doesn't kill unless it's Banded. (I mean you die from Life Orb afterwards but whatever)
252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 229-271 (78.6 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
After toying around with Serperior for a while, anybody who says it's going to be bad in OU obviously hasn't used it yet. For it to be efficient, you have to remove the checks first. Serperior isn't meant to sweep through every team. It's used as a late game cleaner guys.
Assault Vest Sap Sipper Azumarill, ultimate counter. :p Goodra will also take virtually nothing from a +0 Dragon Pulse.
EDIT:
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 81-96 (21.1 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO Yeah even if Serperior predicts with the Dragon Pulse it's boned.
Azumarill is probably an ultimate check just because sap sipper + fairy typing makes it immune to all but hp ground.
I might start running this azumarill >.>
OLD GREGG (im back baby)
old gregg for life
I can remember using Serperior in lower tiers way before mention of its HA being released, and what really made me decide to use it was it's good speed and respectable support move pool. Yes, it can now function as a decent wall breaker thanks to Contrary; but let's not be hasty to forget that it can also function as a stall breaker with a fast taunt, recovery options, and decent bulk. With access to Glare, Mean Look, Dual Screens, a semi reliable phasing move, Gastro Acid to fuck Sap Sippers, and other stuff to mindfuck your opponent I can see Serperior being a very fun mon to use.
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Dual screens, and sub seed are pretty decent sets actually. It's not very bulky for stall teams but it supports stall extremely well while providing offensive potential.
OLD GREGG (im back baby)
old gregg for life
It allows you to hit Ferro And Tran SE so it's obviously not a stupid idea.
Tyranitar is hit harder by Leaf storm actually. Even though fighting is quad resist it's less than half LS's BP.
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 124-148 (30.6 - 36.6%) -- 59% chance to 3HKO
Ferro is hit by fire as well as other steels.
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 124-148 (30.6 - 36.6%) -- 59% chance to 3HKO
Ferro is hit by fire as well as other steels.
He said tran; not tar.
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