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The main problem is that Clefable can't do everything at once and tbh is fairly predictable, you can usually tell its set directly from Team Preview. Mega Gardy also has much higher initial power than Clef, which can be really helpful when facing stall (even with Magic Guard). SR Clef is not good and Wish Clef isn't THAT good either (there are better users out there).
Yeah that's what I think. Clefable honestly has better things to do than set up SR.
About the second paragraph: Kyurem-B can also run a lot of viable sets (Sub + 3 attacks, CB, Scarf, Mixed, even SubTail!) and yet it's B+. Of course, Clefable has a much better typing and is harder to take down, but you get my point. Versatility does not imply S rank imo.
Greninja has better things to do than run Grass Knot.
See my point? The possibility of running it still exists because it can be effective, it is not a gimmicky think, true it is inferior to other of his moves in a lot of cases, but it can still be run and be successful,it is the same case as Clef.
Versatility doesn't make an S rank? you know that Greninja was banned precisely for being able to attack from either physical or special side, which can be translated to be versatile in offense, of course Clefable is not at that level of derpness.
Yeah that's what I think. Clefable honestly has better things to do than set up SR.
About the second paragraph: Kyurem-B can also run a lot of viable sets (Sub + 3 attacks, CB, Scarf, Mixed, even SubTail!) and yet it's B+. Of course, Clefable has a much better typing and is harder to take down, but you get my point. Versatility does not imply S rank imo.
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
Actually I think that's exactly what it implies. Clefable can be SR if that's what you need your team to have it do. It's like the ultimate glue mon. It covers weaknesses if you need it, provides a secondary wincon if you need it, and supports the team with moves like Heal Bell, Wish, SR, or Thunder Wave if you need it. Hell, it can even work as a lure for stuff like Heatran with Focus Blast or Knock Off if you need it.
I'll ask again: what extremely notable flaws does Clef have that make it not S as per the definition above? Being weak to steels is not good enough of an example, especially since it commonly carries Flamethrower or Fire Blast specifically for them. Not being able to run all its sets at once isn't a good reason either, or else I guess we should drop Metagross to since it's only S rank because it can surprise its counters with coverage moves.
I support Clefable to S-Rank 100%, for similar reasons to Landorus-T; it can just do so many different things so fucking well. Due to its nice defensive type, access to a great selection of utility moves that it can use well (Stealth Rock, Wish, Thunder Wave), fantastic abilities in Magic Guard and Unaware, usable SpA, powerful-ass Fire-type moves to discourage Steel-types from switching in, CM to be a win cognition and setup sweeper, the ability to hard-counter massive threats like Mega Sableye and Mega Gallade, great recovery moves, and much much more, the number of team roles that Clefable can fill amounts is astronomical. It's really easy to just smack onto many teams to fill a necessary role, as someone already stated, and is somewhat unpredictable before your opponent knows it's ability. It is not a Mega, and therefore does not face competition for a spot on your team. To address the most common counter-argument, just because Mega Metagross is S and can beat Clefable is not an excuse to keep this thing out. Meta is a mega and won't be on every team. It also does not appreciate a Fire Blast so it can't fearlessly switch in. Get Clefable in S right now.
On a side note, I disagree with Lopunny in S, but that is an argument for another time, I missed it.
The extra bulk and power is nice. I would recommend using Magneton just for the extra speed, as it will certainly miss some kills, and all you really get is the ability to out speed 115 speed tier Pokemon.
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
Actually I think that's exactly what it implies. Clefable can be SR if that's what you need your team to have it do. It's like the ultimate glue mon. It covers weaknesses if you need it, provides a secondary wincon if you need it, and supports the team with moves like Heal Bell, Wish, SR, or Thunder Wave if you need it. Hell, it can even work as a lure for stuff like Heatran with Focus Blast or Knock Off if you need it.
I'll ask again: what extremely notable flaws does Clef have that make it not S as per the definition above? Being weak to steels is not good enough of an example, especially since it commonly carries Flamethrower or Fire Blast specifically for them. Not being able to run all its sets at once isn't a good reason either, or else I guess we should drop Metagross to since it's only S rank because it can surprise its counters with coverage moves.
Besides its obvious case of 4mss, the main reason I don't believe Clefable is S is its pretty low stats. Any strong CB abuser (even Talonflame) can 2HKO it unless resisted, and Clefable needs at least 2 Calm Mind boosts to comfortably wall powerful special attacks. 95 HP is decent, but in general Wish Clefable is kinda outdone by Sylveon, who has a powerful Hyper Voice and an enormous special defense, and Alomomola with Regenerator and Mirror Coat. Uninvested 95 SpA means Clefable needs at least 2 CM boosts (not that easy to get) to pose an offensive threat.
And just because Clefable is versatile doesn't mean it should be S, otherwise we may as well bump Smeargle and Kyurem-B to S since they also have a lot of viable sets.
The extra bulk and power is nice. I would recommend using Magneton just for the extra speed, as it will certainly miss some kills, and all you really get is the ability to out speed 115 speed tier Pokemon.
What kills? The difference between 120 and 130 special attack is almost negligible and bulk is a moot point when you're running Scarf to revenge kill and move first regardless. Bring up some specific OHKOs or 2HKOs Zone gets Ton doesn't with Scarf, but right now the power argument does not convince me in the slightest.
What kills? The difference between 120 and 130 special attack is almost negligible and bulk is a moot point when you're running Scarf to revenge kill and move first regardless. Bring up some specific OHKOs or 2HKOs Zone gets Ton doesn't with Scarf, but right now the power argument does not convince me in the slightest.
I'm talking about in general. Let's say your opponent has a poke at 45% health. Zone may be able to finish it off, whereas Magneton cannot. Based on my experience, I believe there are enough of these situations to make the extra power essential. Conversely, there are fewer situations where you'll need to out-speed a base 115 or scarftar. Moreover, the extra bulk is nice because you'll be better able to switch into ubiquitous moves like Draco Meteor. I'll update with calcs; I'm on the train right now lol.
EDIT:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 151-178 (53.7 - 63.3%)
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magneton: 185-218 (76.4 - 90%)
The main reason I don't believe Clefable is S are its pretty low stats. Any strong CB abuser (even Talonflame) can 2HKO it unless resisted, and Clefable needs at least 2 Calm Mind boosts to comfortably wall powerful special attacks. 95 HP is decent, but in general Wish Clefable is kinda outdone by Sylveon, who has a powerful Hyper Voice and an enormous special defense, and Alomomola with Regenerator and Mirror Coat. Uninvested 95 SpA means Clefable needs at least 2 CM boosts (not that easy to get) to pose an offensive threat,
And just because Clefable is versatile doesn't mean it should be S, because by this logic Smeargle and Kyurem-B should also be S rank.
Smeargle struggles even when using one set, I don't see why it is comparable to Clefable who can run like 3 sets at minimum successfully.
Kyurem-B has problems because even when he is suposed to be an awesome wallbreaker with those Uber like stats there are mons who can do that better, Clefable breaks through M-Sableye without even running a wallbreaking set, and Kyurem-B who is supposed to be focused on that has problems doing it.
Versatility is jsut not being able to run different sets, is being able to run different sets succesfully, which is the main difference between Clefable and those two.
Smeargle struggles even when using one set, I don't see why it is comparable to Clefable who can run like 3 sets at minimum successfully.
Kyurem-B has problems because even when he is suposed to be an awesome wallbreaker with those Uber like stats there are mons who can do that better, Clefable breaks through M-Sableye without even running a wallbreaking set, and Kyurem-B who is supposed to be focused on that has problems doing it.
You know that Cube 2HKOes with both Ice Beam and Outrage, meaning that even if Sableye burns or sets up CM, Cube still has that other move to 2HKO? (of course, it's severely crippled, but still.)
enough off-topic though, let's get back to the clefable rant since you guys love to scream and squeal about its versatility
Yeah that's what I think. Clefable honestly has better things to do than set up SR.
About the second paragraph: Kyurem-B can also run a lot of viable sets (Sub + 3 attacks, CB, Scarf, Mixed, even SubTail!) and yet it's B+. Of course, Clefable has a much better typing and is harder to take down, but you get my point. Versatility does not imply S rank imo.
Wish Clefable stems from its Unaware set, which runs Wish as its form of recovery, as Soft-Boiled is illegal with Unaware, and Wish is its second most consistent form of recovery.
Stealth Rock Clefable is a viable set, and while I do not support Clefable to S, you cannot say it is not a good set, because Clefable can sponge attacks from a lot of Pokemon with Calm 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SDef spread and only risk being 2HKOd a small fraction of the time, and proceed to set up Stealth Rock on them.
So I decided to use Clefable for a bit, seeing as I've never used it and was on the fence about it being S-rank and holy shit it is good
It's a solid win condition that you can easily keep healthy over a game due to hazard and status immunity, has reliable recovery and an amazing defensive typing, due to this, it can wear down its counters that lack proper recovery, like Heatran.
On top of that, if you're using, say, Scizor, you need to make risky plays to get it in safely against Clefable as CB Bullet Punch doesn't even OHKO and you're at risk from taking a Fire Blast, which OHKOs all offensive variants (Bulky SD is 2HKO'd but only does around 50% to max Def Clefable). MegaGross loses a ton of health from switching into Fire Blast aswell, pre-mega is guaranteed to lose over 55% from switching in (Naive loses over 60%), which is huge as it's one of the most threatening pokemon right now and having it at a low HP, putting it in KO range for something like Starmie is just so great. On top of that, it can even run SR sets, TWave/Tox Support, Unaware sets, Wish+Heal Bell sets, it's just so versatile and can do so much for a team. And Unaware makes it one of the best answers for setup sweepers in the entire tier and a solid counter for Mega Sableye, even Magic Guard has a fairly easy time against it.
I'm for it moving up because it's so good right now
btw is the Calm 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Sdef set even that relevant anymore? I thought it was specifically for Greninjas lacking Gunk Shot / XY Meta Greninja. Or did it avoid KO's from something like Specs Keldeo?
Honestly I think the conversation's getting a little off-track. Nitpicks on the incorrect Kyub statement aside; the main point being made is that Clefable can wallbreak Sableye without having to be a Wallbreaker.
You know that Cube 2HKOes with both Ice Beam and Outrage, meaning that even if Sableye burns or sets up CM, Cube still has that other move to 2HKO? (of course, it's severely crippled, but still.)
enough off-topic though, let's get back to the clefable rant since you guys love to scream and squeal about its versatility
The problem with that is if Kyurem-B is locked into Outrage before M-Sableye gets in it is setup bait for him, how are you saying that using SR on Clefable is not viable but getting locked on a move that is resisted/immune by a good amount of pokes is?
Also Kyurem-B can only break through M-Sableye if he has not got any boosts under his belt, which will rarely be the case unless you predict at the same time the switch, M-Sableye could be at +6 and even then Clefable tears him apart any day.
Sorry to get a little off topic, but since the comparison of ''versatility'' mas made I wanted to make sure the differences of why Clefable is successful at doing what it needs compared to other pokemon who could try to accomplish that but are not that succesfull even when running a set focused on that.
Besides its obvious case of 4mss, the main reason I don't believe Clefable is S is its pretty low stats. Any strong CB abuser (even Talonflame) can 2HKO it unless resisted, and Clefable needs at least 2 Calm Mind boosts to comfortably wall powerful special attacks. 95 HP is decent, but in general Wish Clefable is kinda outdone by Sylveon, who has a powerful Hyper Voice and an enormous special defense, and Alomomola with Regenerator and Mirror Coat. Uninvested 95 SpA means Clefable needs at least 2 CM boosts (not that easy to get) to pose an offensive threat.
And just because Clefable is versatile doesn't mean it should be S, otherwise we may as well bump Smeargle and Kyurem-B to S since they also have a lot of viable sets.
So Clefable has an obvious case of 4Mss. Really.
If Clefable's stats were higher, specifically its defense, it'd have to go to ubers. If it could actually take hits from powerful CB abusers it would be a fucking monster. Also, unless a special attack is 1. Some crazy Specs-boosted move or 2. Super effective, Clefable takes nearly any special attack at just +1 pretty well...
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 136-161 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- 61.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
The Wish set is in general outclassed by other Pokemon (although Clefable's abilities have great merits), but the fact that Clefable pulls it off pretty well is impressive considering its other sets are so much better.
Personally, I believe Clefable should go to S. It does work against pretty much any playstyle, and I think it's gotten better in this meta because of Sableye and its ability to check several of the new megas like Gallade/Lopunny. Not to mention it covers so many things that teams tend to be weak against like Conkeldurr and Lati@s. If your opponent loses their Clefable answer, which every team should have, he/she is in great trouble. Clefable is just really freaking good right now lol.
So I decided to use Clefable for a bit, seeing as I've never used it and was on the fence about it being S-rank and holy shit it is good
It's a solid win condition that you can easily keep healthy over a game due to hazard and status immunity, has reliable recovery and an amazing defensive typing, due to this, it can wear down its counters that lack proper recovery, like Heatran.
On top of that, if you're using, say, Scizor, you need to make risky plays to get it in safely against Clefable as CB Bullet Punch doesn't even OHKO and you're at risk from taking a Fire Blast, which OHKOs all offensive variants (Bulky SD is 2HKO'd but only does around 50% to max Def Clefable). MegaGross loses a ton of health from switching into Fire Blast aswell, pre-mega is guaranteed to lose over 55% from switching in (Naive loses over 60%), which is huge as it's one of the most threatening pokemon right now and having it at a low HP, putting it in KO range for something like Starmie is just so great. On top of that, it can even run SR sets, TWave/Tox Support, Unaware sets, Wish+Heal Bell sets, it's just so versatile and can do so much for a team. And Unaware makes it one of the best answers for setup sweepers in the entire tier and a solid counter for Mega Sableye, even Magic Guard has a fairly easy time against it.
I'm for it moving up because it's so good right now
btw is the Calm 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Sdef set even that relevant anymore? I thought it was specifically for Greninjas lacking Gunk Shot / XY Meta Greninja. Or did it avoid KO's from something like Specs Keldeo?
The 160 defense spread you mention was relevant before the GK GReninja days cause it could take Hydro Pump/Thundy Thunderbolt most of the time, but now its not great.
Exploud (who I just nominated to C) takes an explosive diarrhea dump (LOL) on Sableye and Slowbro too, does that mean it should be A+?
Lum Berry Haxorus can Taunt Sableye (mold breaker) and Slowbro and set up SD for fucking free, does that mean it should be A+?
Choice Band Heracross 2HKOes the hell out of them and can even grab a Guts boost from Scald or WoW, does that mean it should be A+?
What does Exploud do against common stall cores? Hope the Chansey forgot to equip eviolite?
What does lum berry Haxorus do against unaware Clefable? You have to forfeit taunt or swords dance for poison jab which immediately means you don't fare well against stall, and even then posion jab only has a 14% chance to 2HKO where as Haxorus takes 88% minimum from an unboosted moonblast.
What does Heracross do against Gliscor?
Do any of these pokemon beat common stall cores? No. Gardevoir does. Gardevoir literally beats most stall teams on her own.
"But yeah, she spanks Sableye and Slowbro so hard it's embarrassing. I think she deserves her A+ ranking because of that alone."
I'm not sure why you took the highlighted sentence the way you did, or why you took that sentence only and seemed to ignore the rest of my original post, but I figured it was pretty obvious that I wasn't suggesting Gardevoir should ONLY be A+ because it can beat Slowbro and Sableye. Lots of pokemon can beat Slowbro and Sableye like you so kindly mentioned, but none of these other pokemon come even remotely close to dismantling stall cores the way Gard does. I even mentioned in my first paragraph that she already rolfstomped stall, she just got that much better in ORAS with the addition of Sableye and Slowbro. That was the point of my post. She shouldn't go down because she already beat stall to its knees in XY and now she has even more fun doing it.
For a post that was so confident and in-your-face (Does that mean it should be A+? Does that mean it should be A+? Does that mean it should be A+?), it was full of very poor comparisons.
Greninja was the mon holding back clefable to rise to S, being a mon that can come in a good amount of situations, mess with your opponents strategy and do its job nicely is a task not a lot of mons cannot do consistently.
When there are things like Bulky DD M-Altaria or M-Sableye at +2 there are few mons that can come in and threaten them, as stated previously even mons like Kyurem-B who has juggernaut stats are dependant if the enemy has boosts on top of it to be able to do his job, something that will never bother Clefable.
The fact that he can adapt to whatever you need, may it be a Cleric or a SR setter alongside threatening mons like M-Sableye ,M-Altaria after thay had set up a DD or a CM is what separates him from other support pokemon or even some stellar wallbreakers.
Gardevoir does not beat stall on its own, because any smart stall player will be using SpDef jirachi or Bronzong. Also, Chansey can 3HKO it with seismic toss, as the taunt is really obvious.
What does Exploud do against common stall cores? Hope the Chansey forgot to equip eviolite?
What does lum berry Haxorus do against unaware Clefable? You have to forfeit taunt or swords dance for poison jab which immediately means you don't fare well against stall, and even then posion jab only has a 14% chance to 2HKO where as Haxorus takes 88% minimum from an unboosted moonblast.
What does Heracross do against Gliscor?
Do any of these pokemon beat common stall cores? No. Gardevoir does. Gardevoir literally beats most stall teams on her own.
"But yeah, she spanks Sableye and Slowbro so hard it's embarrassing. I think she deserves her A+ ranking because of that alone."
I'm not sure why you took the highlighted sentence the way you did, or why you took that sentence only and seemed to ignore the rest of my original post, but I figured it was pretty obvious that I wasn't suggesting Gardevoir should ONLY be A+ because it can beat Slowbro and Sableye. Lots of pokemon can beat Slowbro and Sableye like you so kindly mentioned, but none of these other pokemon come even remotely close to dismantling stall cores the way Gard does. I even mentioned in my first paragraph that she already rolfstomped stall, she just got that much better in ORAS with the addition of Sableye and Slowbro. That was the point of my post. She shouldn't go down because she already beat stall to its knees in XY and now she has even more fun doing it.
For a post that was so confident and in-your-face (Does that mean it should be A+? Does that mean it should be A+? Does that mean it should be A+?), it was full of very poor comparisons.
First of all I'm sorry for the rude comment, and no, I didn't ignore the rest of your post; but everytime I see stuff such as "This Pokemon should be A+ just because it beats this and that" I literally scream.
I never said Gardy should drop, and yes, you're right that Exploud, Haxorus and Heracross can't break stall the way Gardy does.
Just saying that Clefable doesn't stop Haxorus because Unaware is blocked by Mold Breaker and +2 Poison Jab easily OHKOes after rocks.
And while I'm at it, I'd like to bring back the Exploud to C discussion. In Trick Room this guy literally destroys everything, and is usable even on bulky offense to screw stall once Chansey's gone. It beats Mega Sableye, Clefable and Slowbro easily.
Gardevoir does not beat stall on its own, because any smart stall player will be using SpDef jirachi or Bronzong. Also, Chansey can 3HKO it with seismic toss, as the taunt is really obvious.
I said most stall. I also never said Gard beats a healthy Chansey that predicts a taunt. That's not how she beats Chansey. Gard stops Chansey from healing when it needs to and beats it from there.
So I still havent seen a good argument to keep clefable out of S rank, I am assuming it will be rising in the next update.
On another note, if you know me at all Arcanine is my favorite pokemon. So when he had his niche in OU as one of the only reliable mega mawile counters I was over the moon because I could use him without getting too much shit. And now his time has come again, there are 2 notable new threats close to the same level of threat as mega mawile; mega lopunny and mega metagross, balance teams are scrambling trying to find a reliable way to handle these threats and there appear to be no reliable ways to deal with these mons due to their variety of sets. But luckily there is one pokemon to rise up and put them back in their place:
Arcanine for D rank! Metagross and lopunny are very common and difficult to deal with pokemon, and this is a nice full counter to every set of both mons not to mention being a reliable check to damn near every physical attacker in the tier, I would include a list but the list is too long it can serve as a check to mega gyarados for christs sake, here are some calcs:
-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 182-216 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery -1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 105-124 (27.4 - 32.3%) -- 68.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 132-156 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- 52.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery -1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 121-144 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 96-114 (25 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 211-249 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 135-160 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- 87.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 129-153 (33.6 - 39.9%) -- 26% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 176-210 (45.9 - 54.8%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 186-222 (48.5 - 57.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 265-315 (69.1 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 79-94 (20.6 - 24.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 210-250 (54.8 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So basically I couldnt find a physical attacker in the tier that arcanine didnt CHECK(charizard x is the only acception), and he is also a full counter to a good bit of them as well, including metagross, lopunny, and gallade. I mean this thing can check adamant life orb excadrill in sand! That should be enough of an example to demonstrate the prowess arcanine has at checking physical attackers. So Ill move on from that aspect of him.
Now basically the only viable set in OU is max def(I use rocky helm to better punish things) and then willowisp/morning sun/fire move/espeed, extremespeed is also a nice move to have because you never know if you miss a roll or something on a runaway sweeper, I mean just having a +2 priority move is helpful to have. So he is not just a wall that sits there and does nothing he can get reliable chip damage through willowisp and rocky helm, has very good priority to finish off weakened foes, and has a respectable attack stat and a 120 bp stab move that can help get damage on key things. Spreading around burns is always a good thing and is definitely just another bonus to using this mon.
Now onto the negative aspect of arcanine(and his only viable set), it gets walled by fire types(close combat is also an option>flare blitz to better hit heatran and charx) and is setup bait for charizardx which is indeed a serious flaw but not one that cant be overcome with the right team support, I mean mega sableye is setup bait for charx and that thing is S rank. The other issue is the stealth rock weakness, but even if rocks are up it is still able to handle most of the aforementioned pokemon. Perhaps the biggest negative to this guy is something Ill call the "meh factor" it doesnt quite seem to have the stats of an OU pokemon and it doesnt have the best support movepool, it is because of this that against certain teams it can be considered deadweight or something that loses momentum. But the bottom line is OU has 3 fire types one of which is mega(char), one of which provides damn near no defensive synergy due to an immense rock weakness and fraility(tflame), and the other is on every team and is prepared for heavily(heatran), and arcanine is a pure fire type with very good bulk, and can compliment a fire-water-grass core very nicely with smart building and team support. He has his flaws and can seem generally underwhelming in some games, but he also has a notable niche in OU and can greatly benefit a team. Honestly even if the only thing this guy did was counter mega metagross I would still say put him in D rank because OU has basicaly 0 counters that are reliable as arcanine, add in all the other things he counters/checks, the ability to spread burns around, and helpful priority, I think D rank is the least we could do.
So I still havent seen a good argument to keep clefable out of S rank, I am assuming it will be rising in the next update.
On another note, if you know me at all Arcanine is my favorite pokemon. So when he had his niche in OU as one of the only reliable mega mawile counters I was over the moon because I could use him without getting too much shit. And now his time has come again, there are 2 notable new threats close to the same level of threat as mega mawile; mega lopunny and mega metagross, balance teams are scrambling trying to find a reliable way to handle these threats and there appear to be no reliable ways to deal with these mons due to their variety of sets. But luckily there is one pokemon to rise up and put them back in their place:
Arcanine for D rank! Metagross and lopunny are very common and difficult to deal with pokemon, and this is a nice full counter to every set of both mons not to mention being a reliable check to damn near every physical attacker in the tier, I would include a list but the list is too long it can serve as a check to mega gyarados for christs sake, here are some calcs:
-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 182-216 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery -1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 105-124 (27.4 - 32.3%) -- 68.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 132-156 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- 52.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery -1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 121-144 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 96-114 (25 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 211-249 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 135-160 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- 87.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 129-153 (33.6 - 39.9%) -- 26% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 176-210 (45.9 - 54.8%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 186-222 (48.5 - 57.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 265-315 (69.1 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 79-94 (20.6 - 24.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 210-250 (54.8 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So basically I couldnt find a physical attacker in the tier that arcanine didnt CHECK(charizard x is the only acception), and he is also a full counter to a good bit of them as well, including metagross, lopunny, and gallade. I mean this thing can check adamant life orb excadrill in sand! That should be enough of an example to demonstrate the prowess arcanine has at checking physical attackers. So Ill move on from that aspect of him.
Now basically the only viable set in OU is max def(I use rocky helm to better punish things) and then willowisp/morning sun/fire move/espeed, extremespeed is also a nice move to have because you never know if you miss a roll or something on a runaway sweeper, I mean just having a +2 priority move is helpful to have. So he is not just a wall that sits there and does nothing he can get reliable chip damage through willowisp and rocky helm, has very good priority to finish off weakened foes, and has a respectable attack stat and a 120 bp stab move that can help get damage on key things. Spreading around burns is always a good thing and is definitely just another bonus to using this mon.
Now onto the negative aspect of arcanine(and his only viable set), it gets walled by fire types(close combat is also an option>flare blitz to better hit heatran and charx) and is setup bait for charizardx which is indeed a serious flaw but not one that cant be overcome with the right team support, I mean mega sableye is setup bait for charx and that thing is S rank. The other issue is the stealth rock weakness, but even if rocks are up it is still able to handle most of the aforementioned pokemon. Perhaps the biggest negative to this guy is something Ill call the "meh factor" it doesnt quite seem to have the stats of an OU pokemon and it doesnt have the best support movepool, it is because of this that against certain teams it can be considered deadweight or something that loses momentum. But the bottom line is OU has 3 fire types one of which is mega(char), one of which provides damn near no defensive synergy due to an immense rock weakness and fraility(tflame), and the other is on every team and is prepared for heavily(heatran), and arcanine is a pure fire type with very good bulk, and can compliment a fire-water-grass core very nicely with smart building and team support. He has his flaws and can seem generally underwhelming in some games, but he also has a notable niche in OU and can greatly benefit a team. Honestly even if the only thing this guy did was counter mega metagross I would still say put him in D rank because OU has basicaly 0 counters that are reliable as arcanine, add in all the other things he counters/checks, the ability to spread burns around, and helpful priority, I think D rank is the least we could do.
The only calc atm I find ''unreal'' is the MegaGyara one, since the turn you are switching to Arcanine it is the same turn he will be using DD, so he will remain neutral, and he will Taunt you, so you cannot burn him.
Against M-Lopunny it is set dependant, but it can work to an extent I believe.
The fact that he counters the usual set MegaGross is a thing to be considered tough.
The only calc atm I find ''unreal'' is the MegaGyara one, since the turn you are switching to Arcanine it is the same turn he will be using DD, so he will remain neutral, and he will Taunt you, so you cannot burn him.
Against M-Lopunny it is set dependant, but it can work to an extent I believe.
The fact that he counters the usual set MegaGross is a thing to be considered tough.
If Metagross comes in on Arcanine, then it can 2HKO it with Zen Headbutt after rocks as seen below. That is something to consider when saying Arcanine is a "counter" to mega metagross. Meta can take a super effective flare Blitz from Arcanine and live with enough HP to get off another hit as seen below.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 156-184 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
8 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 222-264 (73.7 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
