it doesn't really have 4Mss. it has a ton of different options, and they're all viable. CM Clefable doesn't have 4mms because Flamethrower, Calm mind, Soft boiled, Moon blast is enough to hit everything good enough(Bar Heatran), all of it's other coverage options are also viable. I made a post about it on page 10, depicting how it can use all of it's moves to reliably beat all of it's "counters" bar Victini who still has a chance to kill you.
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
- Thread starter trc
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Why would a metagross come in on Arcanine, and if Arcanine switches into Metagross it would be at -1 so Arcanine is a counter, I don't know how much Equake does though
Metagross can't risk the burn from will o though.
-1 252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 132-156 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Even if Metagross is Adamant then Arcanine walls him as long as SR isn't up. I don't think he can be called a full counter though, because of Clear Body being active on the first switch-in.
MegaScizor Arcanine risks being 2HKOd by M-Gardevoir's Focus Blast after Stealth Rock:
232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 187-220 (48.8 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
If Arc is healthy, it can nuke M-Garde with Flare Blitz, but aside from that, Arc really is not a safe switch-in to M-Gardevoir, despite what your calcs say.
232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 187-220 (48.8 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
If Arc is healthy, it can nuke M-Garde with Flare Blitz, but aside from that, Arc really is not a safe switch-in to M-Gardevoir, despite what your calcs say.
I said that Arcanine counters the usual M-Metagross set (Zen Headbutt/Meteor Mash/Hammer Arm/Grass Knot), even with EQ it does not even 2HKO, a counter is a pokemon you are suposed to bring to a threat, not viceversa, so the scenerio where MegaGross comes to Arcanine should not be took into account unless is the last pokemon or your opponent somehow thinks is a good idea to risk getting burned, and if you are running Arcanine, you are using him to counter MegaGross, which any reasonable player will wait until the opponent switches to their MegaGross to let their Arcanine come in.
Short comment. Yes greninja has increased or decreased the viability of a lot of mons but dont just throw up increasly high upgrades or increasely low rank drops unless there is a legitimate case for the mon. For example the empoleon rank drop all the way to D or something iirc was an over exaggeration that should be avoided. Some things got slightly better or worse so those like starmie or torn-t should be things that would have a case for moving up as one example. Tentacruel and empoleon are ones who might've lost a niche but still provide ample roles that don't correlate to greninjas presence to an extreme level.
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Why did Latios drop to A+ after the greninja ban? If anything I feel that should have solidified it as an S
Inspired by AM's comment I actually do want to propose tentacruel move down to at least B- maybe C+, to my understanding its too biggest reasons to use it were walling greninja and keldeo. However now greninja is gone, and keldeo is most commonly running a sub cm set which can actually setup on tentacruel. Also since starmie is now better in this meta there is more competition for a water rapid spinner and starmie is not setup bait for things and has more offensive presence.
Tentacruel still has uses like being a good answer to clefable and gengar, and has cool utility in setting toxic spikes, also having access to haze is noteworthy. So tentacruel is still good, just not as good, so I think it should get bumped down a bit.
Tentacruel still has uses like being a good answer to clefable and gengar, and has cool utility in setting toxic spikes, also having access to haze is noteworthy. So tentacruel is still good, just not as good, so I think it should get bumped down a bit.
Latios lost his S rank because the new counters he has earned in ORAS. Sure, Greninja's ban help him a lot, but things like Metagross and Lopunny still exist and they pull too much of his potential back for Latios be an S rank anymore, mainly thanks to being able to avoid the 2HKO from any of his moves with Metagross or by outspeeding and hit him on the physical side like Mega Lopunny (not that Gross doesn't do this already, but still). Also, Dragon/Psychic is a fairly poor offensive typing that is very easy to take advantage of, since "virtually" (keep that keyword) any Steel type can come in and wall his STABs. The speed creep also hit him very hard; 110 base speed isn't as good as it was back in XY OU, leaving Latios to depend on 50/50s with more mons that before, or just be outspeeded all together.
It still an awesome mon tho; Very splashable on any team and it is the best Deffoger in OU. Nothing wants to sponge a neutral Draco from him, and that's because A+ is a good rank IMO.
This has been mentioned in a previous post, as greninja went Fairie usuage went up so Tentacruel is still good
Now that Greninja has been kicked upstairs, I can envision Adamant Mega Lopunny becoming more viable, as has been mentioned previously. This brings me to wonder if this goes for Modest Mega Manectric as well; IIRC most Jolly Talonflame don't run max Speed and there's things Mega Mane is outsped by even when Timid, such as Mega Sceptile, Mega Aerodactyl and Scarfers. With a Modest nature, Mega Manectric still hits 369 Speed, while the extra power makes it noticeably stronger and more capable of cleaning late-game. I dunno, just thinking here.
Next up, Mega Gardevoir must stay in A+. I really see no reason to drop it. Sure, Mega Gardevoir may be physically frail, but that didn't stop Greninja from dominating the metagame. What really keeps Mega Gardevoir in A+ is that it's basically Stall's nemesis: extremely high special power (base 165 SAtk + Pixilate Hyper Voice), access to Taunt to stop stallers in their tracks and a great matchup against many Pokémon of the playstyle, notably Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro. That aside, Mega Gardevoir has access to Will-O-Wisp to nerf its checks and counters, and generally sports enough power to hit anything hard on the switch. Between its coverage and power, nothing likes to switch in on any of Mega Gardevoir's moves, including supporting moves.
Here's what I'd like to say to people bitching about its Speed: There's a lot of Pokémon that Mega Gardevoir is already outsped by, so it can easily run Modest to gain extra power. Self-explanatory is that most Stall Pokémon are slow and bulky, so Mega Gardevoir doesn't really need the Timid nature in most cases. It hits absurdly hard, has great coverage, enough Speed and more than one ways to screw over its checks. It may only have a single set, but it's extremely good at what it does.
Sure, you can run a different special wallbreaker, like Landorus-I. I get that. But it seems many just overlook the fact that a Mega Evolution is chosen depending on what the team requires or a team is built around a Mega Evolution. Among Mega Evolutions, Mega Gardevoir is the #1 wallbreaker and Stall crusher. This argument can be made for almost every Mega out there, to be fair.
So with all that out of the way, Mega Gardevoir should remain A+.
Other changes I agree with for previously stated reasons:
C+ -> B- | I think Serperior overall has more use than most of C+, hence why it should be B-, but no higher than that. It's too flawed. Yes, its main STAB doubles its SAtk after a single use and keeps stacking, which is phenomenal, but Serperior will always be walled by something depending on which HP it runs. It's not a bad Pokémon at all, it just has a hard time unleashing its full potential. B- is good for it.
Here's what I'd like to say to people bitching about its Speed: There's a lot of Pokémon that Mega Gardevoir is already outsped by, so it can easily run Modest to gain extra power. Self-explanatory is that most Stall Pokémon are slow and bulky, so Mega Gardevoir doesn't really need the Timid nature in most cases. It hits absurdly hard, has great coverage, enough Speed and more than one ways to screw over its checks. It may only have a single set, but it's extremely good at what it does.
Sure, you can run a different special wallbreaker, like Landorus-I. I get that. But it seems many just overlook the fact that a Mega Evolution is chosen depending on what the team requires or a team is built around a Mega Evolution. Among Mega Evolutions, Mega Gardevoir is the #1 wallbreaker and Stall crusher. This argument can be made for almost every Mega out there, to be fair.
So with all that out of the way, Mega Gardevoir should remain A+.
Other changes I agree with for previously stated reasons:
It's time for the highly anticipated 1K post.
I'm going to change the topic a bit from Clefable. Why not have another adorable Fairy in S rank?
Mega Altaria A+ -----> S
Most people look at Mega Altaria as a Dragon Dancer when they look at her. She's arguably the best Dragon Dancer in the tier. Pixelate Return hits like a truck at +1. However, that's not all Altaria can do. Altaria has incredible bulk, 75 / 110 / 105, the highest of any Dragon Dancer. Just for comparison, her bulk is almost as high and Mega Sableye's! It takes anything but Super Effective hits like a pro. Now that Greninja is gone, that's one less Pokémon that can hit her Super Effectively that she has to worry about. She has a fantastic defensive typing, being weak to only three attacking types, two of which are extremely uncommon. Altaria also has access to Refresh and Roost. Altaria also has plenty of options outside of Dragon Dance. She has plenty of amazing supportive moves, like Tailwind, Cotton Guard, Heal Bell, Haze, Feather Dance and Perish Song. She also has plenty of options on the special side, with things like Hyper Voice, Fire Blast and Draco Meteor. It also hard counters / hard checks both forms of Charizard, two very large threats. Unlike most of the other Dragon Dancers, Altaria is easily able to handle Unaware users like Quagsire (Clefable is a challenge, however.). (Calcs below.) Mixed Mega Altaria is also an absolute monster in the current meta, and she deserves to move up.
I'm going to change the topic a bit from Clefable. Why not have another adorable Fairy in S rank?
Mega Altaria A+ -----> S
Most people look at Mega Altaria as a Dragon Dancer when they look at her. She's arguably the best Dragon Dancer in the tier. Pixelate Return hits like a truck at +1. However, that's not all Altaria can do. Altaria has incredible bulk, 75 / 110 / 105, the highest of any Dragon Dancer. Just for comparison, her bulk is almost as high and Mega Sableye's! It takes anything but Super Effective hits like a pro. Now that Greninja is gone, that's one less Pokémon that can hit her Super Effectively that she has to worry about. She has a fantastic defensive typing, being weak to only three attacking types, two of which are extremely uncommon. Altaria also has access to Refresh and Roost. Altaria also has plenty of options outside of Dragon Dance. She has plenty of amazing supportive moves, like Tailwind, Cotton Guard, Heal Bell, Haze, Feather Dance and Perish Song. She also has plenty of options on the special side, with things like Hyper Voice, Fire Blast and Draco Meteor. It also hard counters / hard checks both forms of Charizard, two very large threats. Unlike most of the other Dragon Dancers, Altaria is easily able to handle Unaware users like Quagsire (Clefable is a challenge, however.). (Calcs below.) Mixed Mega Altaria is also an absolute monster in the current meta, and she deserves to move up.
64 SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 174-205 (45.5 - 53.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Offensive Mega Altaria also beats defensive Lando-T reliably
252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 151-178 (39.5 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
64 SpA Mega Altaria Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 242-286 (72.4 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 240-284 (78.9 - 93.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 113-133 (37.5 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Look at how much that does at +1!
+1 252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 44 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 315-372 (104.6 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 121-143 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
64 SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 205-243 (52 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Offensive Mega Altaria also beats defensive Lando-T reliably
252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 151-178 (39.5 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
64 SpA Mega Altaria Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 242-286 (72.4 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 240-284 (78.9 - 93.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 113-133 (37.5 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Look at how much that does at +1!
+1 252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 44 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 315-372 (104.6 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 121-143 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
64 SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 205-243 (52 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not even M-Metagross can KO bulky Altaria with a Super Effective hit
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 288-342 (81.3 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 166-196 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 158-186 (44.6 - 52.5%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 288-342 (81.3 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 166-196 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 158-186 (44.6 - 52.5%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
None right now since I already did shoutouts for my RMT and I don't want to bother people;;;
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Mr. Hothead
formerly Salt2DaFeds
Reposting this so TRC sees it better (what no i dont want likes)
But a pokemon ive been curious about is Kyu B. From what ive seen he has been crippled as almost all of the new megas hinder it and his ass movepool is even worse now cause he is forced to wear an item because of his mediocre speed. His type weaknesses are too much in this meta, honestly i wouldnt be surprised if he makes it to C+ or B-...
EDIT: Agreeing with Serperior to B-. I think i was a bit too harsh on the guy before but if you dont have something to cockblock Grass and Fire you are fucked. Also, just saying, Taunt on base 113 is good too...
I 100% agree with this. Altaria is an extremely versatile and effective in all of it's roles. With Greninja gone one of Altaria's biggest checks is now gone. Some of the only mons that can deal with her dd set now are scizor, unaware clefable and ferrothorn, and that's only if it isn't carrying fore blast for two of them. It's fantastic defensive typing, good stats and amazing movepool allow it to be completely unpredictable and make it a huge threat.It's time for the highly anticipated 1K post.
I'm going to change the topic a bit from Clefable. Why not have another adorable Fairy in S rank?
Mega Altaria A+ -----> S
Most people look at Mega Altaria as a Dragon Dancer when they look at her. She's arguably the best Dragon Dancer in the tier. Pixelate Return hits like a truck at +1. However, that's not all Altaria can do. Altaria has incredible bulk, 75 / 110 / 105, the highest of any Dragon Dancer. Just for comparison, her bulk is almost as high and Mega Sableyes! It takes anything but Super Effective hits like a pro. Now that Greninja is gone, that's one less Pokémon that can hit her Super Effectively that she has to worry about. She has a fantastic defensive typing, being weak to only three attacking types, two of which are extremely uncommon. Altaria also has access to Refresh and Roost. Altaria also has plenty of options outside of Dragon Dance. She has plenty of amazing supportive moves, like Tailwind, Cotton Guard, Heal Bell, Haze, Feather Dance and Perish Song. She also has plenty of options on the special side, with things like Hyper Voice, Fire Blast and Draco Meteor. It also hard counters both forms of Carhizard, two very large threats. Unlike most of the other Dragon Dancers, Altaria is easily able to handle Unaware users like Clefable and Quagsire. (Calcs below.) Mixed Mega Altaria is an absolute monster in the current meta, and it deserves to move up.
64 SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 174-205 (45.5 - 53.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Offensive Mega Altaria also beats defensive Lando-T reliably
252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 151-178 (39.5 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
64 SpA Mega Altaria Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 242-286 (72.4 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 240-284 (78.9 - 93.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 113-133 (37.5 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Look at how much that does at +1!
+1 252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 44 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 315-372 (104.6 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 121-143 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Not even M-Metagross can KO bulky Altaria with a Super Effecive
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 288-342 (81.3 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 166-196 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 158-186 (44.6 - 52.5%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
None right now since I already did shoutouts for my MRT and I don't want to bother people;;;
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First, I've seen more posts about blacklisting Trevenant than posts for ranking him. We don't need to blacklist him, we just need to stop bringing it up.
Second, "forced to use a scarf" is a pretty harsh statement. Scarf Kyurem-B has been and is still incredibly useful for revenge killing, and the LO+Roost doesn't have to deal with Low Kick Greninja anymore. It hasn't gotten better, but I don't think it's gotten any worse either, so I don't see why it needs to drop 2-3 ranks.
Mr. Hothead
formerly Salt2DaFeds
The fact that its shit movepool and its stand against Offensive teams is what makes it horrible. Fairy types, Steel Types, etc. are everywhere and will take out Kyu b in a blink of an eye. Also, one of its STABS require an item for it to be used in 1 turn (lol) seriously, the meta revolves around fast attackers or slow stallmons. And if you think Kube has a chance against stall... well Clef exists. Hits extremely hard but it has the worst movepool in the meta and its almost a meme because of that.
Whats the point if we dont blacklist trevenant but not bring it up? Just blacklist it lol...
I'm not really convinced that Mega Altaria is good enough to move up. While it has a lot of great move options and viable EV spreads, a lot of them fall short in certain areas that are really difficult to patch up. I'll provide a few examples:
-If you're running a defensive set, you're going to have trouble with all kinds of steel types. Defensive sweeping sets really don't find many opportunities to set up, and you're often going to switch in to take a hit and pivot. Altaria doesn't make an amazing pivot, since it lacks lefties and can get worn down pretty easily. Taking a turn to Roost off the residual damage just kills your momentum, but it's necessary if you want to continue using Altaria for its amazing defensive typing.
-Offensive sets lack the bulk necessary to check both Mega Charizards reliably, especially when SR is present.
-Not claiming that Altaria has 4MSS, but it really has a difficult time fitting in moves other than Pixilate STAB, coverage, more coverage/Heal Bell, and Boost/Roost. I can't even theorize a set that has room for Cotton Guard, Haze, Tailwind or Perish Song.
-I don't really believe that Mega Altaria can deal with Unaware Clefable reliably. The defensive set doesn't stand a chance, while an Adamant DD set cannot reliably win if Clefable takes it on from full. Return does 47.2 - 55.8%, so either way Mega Altaria is going to be taking at least one Moonblast.
The mixed offensive set with Pixilate STAB, Earthquake and Fire Blast seems to be the most threatening. However, it seems to face a lot of competition from Gardevoir who hits much harder initially. Altaria does have access to DD to distinguish itself from Gardevoir, but then you're completely giving up Altaria's defensive capabilities by replacing Roost and not investing in bulk. Mega Altaria's natural bulk really isn't that amazing without investment, being only slightly better than that of Mega Diancie. I would love to see more discussion on Mega Altaria, since I rarely see it outside of my own teams.
I agree wiht Kyuzeth that Mega Gardevoir should remain where it is in A+. It's well known for wrecking stall, but it also seems to have a great match-up vs balance and offense, because it still has the ability to grab KO's every time it gets in for free. In this sense it's comparable to Greninja, sporting amazing coverage in three moves (Hyper Voice, Psyshock, Fblast) and being really difficult to switch into because of it.
-If you're running a defensive set, you're going to have trouble with all kinds of steel types. Defensive sweeping sets really don't find many opportunities to set up, and you're often going to switch in to take a hit and pivot. Altaria doesn't make an amazing pivot, since it lacks lefties and can get worn down pretty easily. Taking a turn to Roost off the residual damage just kills your momentum, but it's necessary if you want to continue using Altaria for its amazing defensive typing.
-Offensive sets lack the bulk necessary to check both Mega Charizards reliably, especially when SR is present.
-Not claiming that Altaria has 4MSS, but it really has a difficult time fitting in moves other than Pixilate STAB, coverage, more coverage/Heal Bell, and Boost/Roost. I can't even theorize a set that has room for Cotton Guard, Haze, Tailwind or Perish Song.
-I don't really believe that Mega Altaria can deal with Unaware Clefable reliably. The defensive set doesn't stand a chance, while an Adamant DD set cannot reliably win if Clefable takes it on from full. Return does 47.2 - 55.8%, so either way Mega Altaria is going to be taking at least one Moonblast.
The mixed offensive set with Pixilate STAB, Earthquake and Fire Blast seems to be the most threatening. However, it seems to face a lot of competition from Gardevoir who hits much harder initially. Altaria does have access to DD to distinguish itself from Gardevoir, but then you're completely giving up Altaria's defensive capabilities by replacing Roost and not investing in bulk. Mega Altaria's natural bulk really isn't that amazing without investment, being only slightly better than that of Mega Diancie. I would love to see more discussion on Mega Altaria, since I rarely see it outside of my own teams.
I agree wiht Kyuzeth that Mega Gardevoir should remain where it is in A+. It's well known for wrecking stall, but it also seems to have a great match-up vs balance and offense, because it still has the ability to grab KO's every time it gets in for free. In this sense it's comparable to Greninja, sporting amazing coverage in three moves (Hyper Voice, Psyshock, Fblast) and being really difficult to switch into because of it.
Alteria might check zard X, but if anything zard Y hard counters alteria. I'm sorry, but if Alteria switches into zard Y, it will be 2hkoed by flare blitz, while not ohkoing back, it will most likely be a double down. And as for zard Y, fire blast 2hko everything but fully spdeff, while Zardari only takes 20 from uninvited hypervoice, and even fully invested draco fail to do much, considderin zardy is faster and have roost. The only way Alteria would counter zardy would be spdef+Dd+outrage.
I don't know if it deserves S, as I'm really rusty in OU, but a fact is a fact, and Alteria should never be considered zard counter.
I don't know if it deserves S, as I'm really rusty in OU, but a fact is a fact, and Alteria should never be considered zard counter.
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I don't really agree with this. I don't really feel like altaria fits the S rank description, as it's weak to common priority, kind of slow, slightly above average defences though great typing. I just need some convincing, but my initial stance is no.It's time for the highly anticipated 1K post.
I'm going to change the topic a bit from Clefable. Why not have another adorable Fairy in S rank?
Mega Altaria A+ -----> S
Most people look at Mega Altaria as a Dragon Dancer when they look at her. She's arguably the best Dragon Dancer in the tier. Pixelate Return hits like a truck at +1. However, that's not all Altaria can do. Altaria has incredible bulk, 75 / 110 / 105, the highest of any Dragon Dancer. Just for comparison, her bulk is almost as high and Mega Sableye's! It takes anything but Super Effective hits like a pro. Now that Greninja is gone, that's one less Pokémon that can hit her Super Effectively that she has to worry about. She has a fantastic defensive typing, being weak to only three attacking types, two of which are extremely uncommon. Altaria also has access to Refresh and Roost. Altaria also has plenty of options outside of Dragon Dance. She has plenty of amazing supportive moves, like Tailwind, Cotton Guard, Heal Bell, Haze, Feather Dance and Perish Song. She also has plenty of options on the special side, with things like Hyper Voice, Fire Blast and Draco Meteor. It also hard counters both forms of Carhizard, two very large threats. Unlike most of the other Dragon Dancers, Altaria is easily able to handle Unaware users like Quagsire (Clefable is a challenge, however.). (Calcs below.) Mixed Mega Altaria is also an absolute monster in the current meta, and she deserves to move up.
64 SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 174-205 (45.5 - 53.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Offensive Mega Altaria also beats defensive Lando-T reliably
252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 151-178 (39.5 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
64 SpA Mega Altaria Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 242-286 (72.4 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 240-284 (78.9 - 93.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 113-133 (37.5 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Look at how much that does at +1!
+1 252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 44 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 315-372 (104.6 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 121-143 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
64 SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 205-243 (52 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not even M-Metagross can KO bulky Altaria with a Super Effecive
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 288-342 (81.3 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 166-196 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 158-186 (44.6 - 52.5%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
None right now since I already did shoutouts for my RMT and I don't want to bother people;;;
Mr. Hothead
formerly Salt2DaFeds
Zard Y cant DPulse it, Alt resists all of its moves, gets worn down and outsped by STAB Pixilate Return a +1 and MAltaria has access to roost and if Zard Y has roost MAlt can just EQ.
Care to explain?
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Altaria in Sun: 150-177 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Altaria in Sun: 165-195 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Fire blast does 70% to offensive veriants, calling Zard a counter was stupid, as it will lose if it switches in, but it will beat alta 1v1
Tentacruel is barely an answer to Keldeo, unless you're using a physically defensive set which i guess can kinda switch in? At most it's a pivot switch into it and not an actual counter. The two biggest reasons to use it in the first place, (besides spinning) were beating Clefable and Gengar (and I guess Heatran but it doesn't take an Earth Power too well), two niches which are, if anything, even more relevant now that these 2 Pokemon have lost an extremely common check and will probably rise in usage. Once again, not sure how this got worse just because something it checked got banned.
Also I really don't think Starmie is a better spinner than Tentacruel simply because it's spinblocked by Mega-Sableye (talking about the defensive set here: the offensive set can beat Sabeye but the fact that it's offensive means it doesn't fit on the kinds of teams Tentacruel does and therefore doesn't really compete with it for a slot; you're not using offensive Starmie on balance or stall)
Also I think people are overhyping Clefable a bit, I'm not actually opposed to it being S but saying that there's no argument against it being S rank is a bit ridiculous.
Clefable basically has 2 guaranteed moves : Moonblast and recovery, and can choose really whatever it wants depending on its team. It can for example run Wish/Protect/Moonblast/Heal Bell or Stealth Rock, but this set is pretty easy to deal with for obvious reasons and as a standalone Pokemon has a few problems. Then you can just run Moonblast/Softboiled/Calm Mind/Flamethrower, which is harder to beat but doesn't provide the same degree of support. Which is a very good thing obviously, and I think the main reason for it possibly moving to S.
The problem I have with people saying "oh it can just run <coverage move> for <thing>" is that you actually have to predict which thing will come in most of the time. I mean you can say "oh I'm just going to Fire Blast Mega Scizor and Thunderbolt Talonflame and Psyshock Tentacruel" but you can't guarantee at all that the opponent will immediately respond with whatever you want to lure. This is different to, say, Mega Metagross and Mega Lopunny who don't need to predict much since they outspeed the targets of their lure moves. Clefable can't really afford to randomly fire off Focus Blasts simply because of its low speed, and inability to punish passive play and create momentum. And it's not too uncommon for there to be more then one Clefable check on a team, so if you mess up and use the wrong move the opponent will know what you have and be able to play around it much easily. Clefable is ultimately not hard to scout, which limits its effectiveness when it comes to luring things.
The comparaison between Clefable and Sableye is easy to make, but there's one big difference between them : Clefable can potentially provide a lot of utility, but has to actually run the appropriate moves. Sableye already has this utility, it doesn't even need to run anything in particular because it just does tons of stuff already by just being there. Sableye just has much more of a presence on the field than Clefable, as a result Clefable is easier to pressure in general.
About Mega Gardevoir : You can easily say that it can just use Wisp to disable Metagross but the last thing Gardevoir wants to do is spam Will-O-Wisp. The whole point of Mega Gardevoir is clicking Hyper Voice and watching things crumble, not being able to do that effectively against offensive teams (or really any team atm) is a pretty big deal.
Finally, Mega Altaria is great and all but I can't see it being S rank as long as Mega Metagross still exists. And yeah, you can Fire Blast as it switches in etc etc but the same applies for Clefable and MGarde here : you're still outsped by MMeta without any boosts, and it still takes one Fire Blast so you need to predict really carefully around it, having such a dangerous and common check is just not a good thing.
From experience offensive sets absolutely need coverage, I've only found monoattacking to be good on extremely bulky sets since steel types are really common and invariably wall you so you need way too much stuff out of the way to sweep and it's just not worth it. And without Substitute or Heal Bell Altaria gets worn down by status really fast (specifically Rotom's WoW and Keldeo's Scald), and without DD tons of stuff forces it out. It kinda has to pick its poison really, it may not really have any hard stops (besides I guess SpD Talon and MVenu) but it'll always lose to something.
Also I really don't think Starmie is a better spinner than Tentacruel simply because it's spinblocked by Mega-Sableye (talking about the defensive set here: the offensive set can beat Sabeye but the fact that it's offensive means it doesn't fit on the kinds of teams Tentacruel does and therefore doesn't really compete with it for a slot; you're not using offensive Starmie on balance or stall)
Also I think people are overhyping Clefable a bit, I'm not actually opposed to it being S but saying that there's no argument against it being S rank is a bit ridiculous.
Clefable basically has 2 guaranteed moves : Moonblast and recovery, and can choose really whatever it wants depending on its team. It can for example run Wish/Protect/Moonblast/Heal Bell or Stealth Rock, but this set is pretty easy to deal with for obvious reasons and as a standalone Pokemon has a few problems. Then you can just run Moonblast/Softboiled/Calm Mind/Flamethrower, which is harder to beat but doesn't provide the same degree of support. Which is a very good thing obviously, and I think the main reason for it possibly moving to S.
The problem I have with people saying "oh it can just run <coverage move> for <thing>" is that you actually have to predict which thing will come in most of the time. I mean you can say "oh I'm just going to Fire Blast Mega Scizor and Thunderbolt Talonflame and Psyshock Tentacruel" but you can't guarantee at all that the opponent will immediately respond with whatever you want to lure. This is different to, say, Mega Metagross and Mega Lopunny who don't need to predict much since they outspeed the targets of their lure moves. Clefable can't really afford to randomly fire off Focus Blasts simply because of its low speed, and inability to punish passive play and create momentum. And it's not too uncommon for there to be more then one Clefable check on a team, so if you mess up and use the wrong move the opponent will know what you have and be able to play around it much easily. Clefable is ultimately not hard to scout, which limits its effectiveness when it comes to luring things.
The comparaison between Clefable and Sableye is easy to make, but there's one big difference between them : Clefable can potentially provide a lot of utility, but has to actually run the appropriate moves. Sableye already has this utility, it doesn't even need to run anything in particular because it just does tons of stuff already by just being there. Sableye just has much more of a presence on the field than Clefable, as a result Clefable is easier to pressure in general.
About Mega Gardevoir : You can easily say that it can just use Wisp to disable Metagross but the last thing Gardevoir wants to do is spam Will-O-Wisp. The whole point of Mega Gardevoir is clicking Hyper Voice and watching things crumble, not being able to do that effectively against offensive teams (or really any team atm) is a pretty big deal.
Finally, Mega Altaria is great and all but I can't see it being S rank as long as Mega Metagross still exists. And yeah, you can Fire Blast as it switches in etc etc but the same applies for Clefable and MGarde here : you're still outsped by MMeta without any boosts, and it still takes one Fire Blast so you need to predict really carefully around it, having such a dangerous and common check is just not a good thing.
From experience offensive sets absolutely need coverage, I've only found monoattacking to be good on extremely bulky sets since steel types are really common and invariably wall you so you need way too much stuff out of the way to sweep and it's just not worth it. And without Substitute or Heal Bell Altaria gets worn down by status really fast (specifically Rotom's WoW and Keldeo's Scald), and without DD tons of stuff forces it out. It kinda has to pick its poison really, it may not really have any hard stops (besides I guess SpD Talon and MVenu) but it'll always lose to something.
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252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria in Sun: 150-177 (42.3 - 50%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
lol
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