GSC In-Game Tier List

[Lucchini]

I really object to Golem going up to S. Some of the facts you presented don't seem quite right, namely:

- the difference between Graveler and Golem in offensive prowess. Graveler has base 95 atk not 90, and Golem had 110 base p atk prior to generation 6. Hence, the attack gap between the two is just 15, and not 30.
- Geodude's natural movepool is really not that good. Rock Throw and Magnitude is as far as you will get with it, Magnitude having an update in a move with a huge opportunity cost and Rock Throw not having any upgrade during the game whatsoever. Exploding unto something can probably be a good argument for moving a mon from E tier into D, but I don't see it working for somebody you're pushing into S.

Then you're saying it's only grass and water types that Golem is afraid of. There is a sufficient number of these among random trainers. As for waters not running a STAB, you can never tell when they do even if you do study the level-up learnset for each of them (most people wouldn't go that far) - regular trainers will occasionally feature moves outside of their sets that you can't predict. Since Golem is so fast, he's at the mercy of the moves they chance to have.

But Golem is afraid of a ton more than just water and grass types. Pryce's ice-types don't welcome its presence, nor do Chuck's and Bruno's fighters. When Golem also fails to OHKO, he's likely getting 2HKO'd in return, and probably outsped - let's say against E4's Will. The E4/Lance portion is generally infested with fliers and Rock Throw is Golem's best move for these folks, Rollout being ineffective due to Golem's dreadful speed stat. As a result, Golem struggles to contribute in these matchups.

Also of importance is Golem's tendency to be outsped and be susceptible to annoyances like accuracy drops, confusion and other statuses - quite an important one considering he'll fail to outspeed too many Pokemon that can hardly be considered threats - whom most outspeed with ease and OHKO with a STAB or coverage move.

Really, Golem fulfils a very strong niche but it's just a niche, and out of the S-tier mons it's by far the furthest way from "attempting" to solo the game ("attempting" because we're considered low enough levels to be part of a big team). His problems are just too big to consider him as anything other than just barely an A-tier mon. If you really do see it being very functionally different from Graveler (which it's not), move Graveler down to B if you like.

I'm not entirely convinced Magmar should be in S either, but at least Magmar's a whole lot better than Golem.

 

[Millky95]

Go ahead if you want. Im actually curious on how a 4 man works in this game.

I always try and use 4 man teams with 2 hm slaves. Found it the best way to keep experience shared equally without the need for a great deal of grinding. 3 mons and you level just a bit too fast though

 

[Mekkah]

tbf Lucchini Graveler and Golem both get Earthquake at L41, so no huge opportunity cost there. probably too late for any gyms but it can be used during the elite four. but i do think that part of the game is its worst. Golem is all about the ridiculously good gym matchups, beating gyms 1-4 and then 6, but it can be considered bad in all the other ones. I think it's fine in A. S is filled with 'mons that are more all-around good, whereas Golem tends to be either really good or really bad. And as you said its speed makes it below average vs things that other 'mons just destroy.

 

[Lucchini]

Errr right, I dunno what I was thinking when I said that. Still, L41 is probably something you can expect to reach around the time you reach the E4? And that's when you get the TM, too.

Geodude's not so hot for the first gym, I can say as a person who very frequently picks him as part of my GSC teams. Rock Throw comes a bit late at lv. 11, and you have too much difficulty training against those Vine Whip Bellsprouts. You need a lot of effort to get to the level on time, and then you could just find yourself haxxed by Mud-Slap.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

Nah, Geodude is way to good for the beginning and Team Rocket and some gym leaders in the game...how is he not S, because he can't SOLO the game? If that's the main criteria (..alongside Megas in other tiers being viable), than I declare that these tier lists here a completly subjective nonsense

 

[Colonel M]

To be fair Lucchini's points are pretty valid (and Im glad it came up). Golem at least is a little faster with gym badges taken into account, but it isnt really groundbreaking.

The reason I brought up Golem is because it is an example of one of those Pokemon in a tier limbo (GS Magmar at a close second but I feel it is worthy of S). Golem is plagued by terrible Speed (which I mentioned I am not a huge fan of), but it is absurdly bulky against the majority of Pokemon you face in-game. Yes you -may- face some Pokemon Golem naturally struggles against but most normal trainers dont really change beyond the level up movepool anyway and are damn predictable. Furthermore Golem will sometimes have the level gap and the Speed boost from Whitney's badge. I do agree that its contribution against Falkner is shoddy (mainly due to the potential absence of Rock Throw), but you could also use the earlier routes to just train Geodude (basically starter sits around for a while - we'll address this shortly). I did hit 11 with Geodude but I did enter Sprout Tower which could be seen as kind of inefficient (though beating Falkner without the extra training probably isnt wasy outside of the traded Onix). As for haxxing it is sort of irrelevant because every Pokemon faces that issue vs Falkner.

If your starter is Chikorita or Cyndaquil you can have them solo Sprout Tower to be trained. Totodile trainers might even avoid this tower unless they have a Spearow or Crystal Growlithe.

Golem does crush Bugsy and does a number to Morty though. He at least dents Whitney and Jasmine which is considerable too. It is practically steamrolling through Team Rocket and smashes most of your rivals team to pieces.

I wanted it discussed because it does feel limbo in tiers. As for Graveler it is pretty solid to stay in A even if Golem is A.

As for the E4 - though Will and Bruno can be problematic for Golem - it can trash through Koga and a good portion of Karen's team (Crunch Houndoom could hurt I guess though). And even in Kanto it cleans alright for some gyms.

 

[Mekkah]

Errr right, I dunno what I was thinking when I said that. Still, L41 is probably something you can expect to reach around the time you reach the E4? And that's when you get the TM, too.

Geodude's not so hot for the first gym, I can say as a person who very frequently picks him as part of my GSC teams. Rock Throw comes a bit late at lv. 11, and you have too much difficulty training against those Vine Whip Bellsprouts. You need a lot of effort to get to the level on time, and then you could just find yourself haxxed by Mud-Slap.

I agree you start Earthquaking around the Elite Four either way.

Mud Slap kinda sucks but Geodude does trivialize the two gym trainers, which at this point few other 'mons do. Even Totodile and Cyndaquil can't get through the L9 Spearow and the two Pidgey without healing. I don't remember if I ever have Rock Throw at this point but it prolly requires switching in and out vs Bellsprout.

As for the E4 - though Will and Bruno can be problematic for Golem - it can trash through Koga and a good portion of Karen's team (Crunch Houndoom could hurt I guess though). And even in Kanto it cleans alright for some gyms.

I don't think Golem even counts as above average against Koga. Ariados has Giga Drain, I dunno how fast it is compared to Golem at that point. Venomoth has Psychic and Double Team and I'm pretty sure Graveler doesn't OHKO, not sure about Golem. Forretress can't be OHKO'd but it doesn't do anything back. Muk is a good matchup. Crobat isn't exactly going to kill you but if it starts Double Teaming while you try to Rollout/Rock Throw things can take a while. Meanwhile, anything Fire or Flying OHKOs a lot of these while being faster and 100% accurate.

Same goes for Karen's Vileplume. I don't think Golem is necessary good or bad against Umbreon. Gengar, sure, but from my experience that thing always uses Curse turn 1 so it's trivial. Murkrow is just a joke.

Golem is nothing special vs Lance. Bad vs Gyarados and Blizzard Dragonite, good vs Aerodactyl and Charizard, not sure about the other two Dragonites. Twister can be kind of annoying I guess, not too threatening but Rock Throw/Rollout is not the best method of taking them out either.

So basically Golem is bad vs 2 of the Elite Four, average at best vs the other three.

A tier pls.

 

[Lucchini]

Golem doesn't "destroy Rockets" actually, because to achieve that simple task one just needs to have average speed and above average offence. Golem lacks the former but offers the later, which is already in abundance among most tier S-C mons.

Totodile can solo the Sprout Tower nicely if he's the only mon in the party at that point of the game; might need to level-up once or twice once inside to start OHKOing with Scratch (2HKOs on stronger sprouts).

However, switching Geodude in and out is not really possible if your starter is Totodile (or you caught a Poliwag on your way to make it your only other mon or smth), and Geodude could happen to be below lv. 11 when fighting the gym trainers. What I noticed is that Spearow actually has a decent chance to beat him in the duel since Geodude's stabless attacks are so weak, and Spearow has Leer.

Karen's Gengar isn't so good for Golem because Destiny Bond has a very high chance of being used. Umbreon is a plausible matchup since very few other mons boast having something to offer there anyway. The ghosts in Morty's gym could also curse your Geodude, forcing to switch out, sleep, confuse or even dreameat it (in the case of Gengar).

Golem can take on the Thunder Dragonite but not the L50 one with Outrage. However, it's not always possible to predict which of the Blizzard/Thunder nites will be switched in.

And Golem just might be perfect for taking Crobat on, considering you'll hardly have anything faster (besides lolJolteon). Perhaps a steel like Magnemite or Steelix would have a safer matchup, though, and anyone with accurate moves probably takes Crobat down more reliably since Double Team is a nuisance.

 

[Colonel M]

Remember that the majority of Rocket Pokemon are naturally slower than Golem and the badge from Whitney actually makes its Speed a little more forgiving against them. The exceptions are Rattata family (who cant really dent Golem) and like Houndour / doom who are seen by, what, two executives? And Ekans / Arbok I guess - but they dont really hurt (at worst Glare could annoy).

Zubat family is probably the worst of it.

 

[Mekkah]

Golem is basically worse than most other B and A mons vs Rattata and Zubat lines by a tiny bit. Better than a lot vs Magnemite and Koffing, though. It's an insignificant difference no matter how you slice it.

Karen's Gengar isn't so good for Golem because Destiny Bond has a very high chance of being used.

I've never seen Karen's Gengar use Destiny Bond at full health, but hey, could be my faulty memory.

Still have not seen any real argument for S tier Golem. Its performance has too much of a drop at certain points to be up there with Abra, Magmar and Totodile. It seems much closer to something like Magikarp which is obviously good but has issues.

 

[Lucchini]

Magnemites can be difficult to face for mons with limited coverage options (though a Surf should OHKO the mook ones) but Koffings are best taken care of with special moves anyway. 95 def/45 sp. def., so Golem is probably missing OHKOs with unlucky Magnitudes more often.

Golem's failure to outspeed Rattatas and Zubat extends to a large portion of other trainers he could be facing, though.

And Mekkah, are you implying Gengar's AI will never use Destiny Bond when at full health?

 

[Colonel M]

Sure. I think Golem in A is fine. Graveler is probably not much different from Golem in these games to really warrant a tier gap anyway. By the way - the criterion of Golem not being able to solo the game is not being taken into account. Basically it struggles against some trainers a lot more than some Pokemon like Alakazam do or Feraligatr.

I might drop Magmar to A. It's kind of a tricky mon to think about because it does well against Jasmine, fine against Chuck (Poliwrath probably will KO Magmar but Magmar can sneak in a ThunderPunch before dying), fine against Morty (well, at least it hits hard and fast enough for Gastly line and maybe Haunter), fine against Pryce (Pryce's Pokemon do not have STAB Water-type attacks), then has moments that shines in the Elite Four (can screw up some of Wil's Pokemon, 3 of Koga's Pokemon are weak to Fire, Bruno can kind of be cleared with Sunny Day + Flamethrower sans Onix and probably Machamp, can handle Karen to a point, doesn't do well against Lance barring like Gyarados). Dips in and out of Kanto too. Eh.

The tier changes:

- Moved all babies down to C minimum.
- Moved Psyduck and Wooper to A.
- Removed a mistake of two Magmar (GS). My bad.

Some things to talk about:

- Mareep. Mareep hasn't really been discussed much, but it's pretty cool. It learns ThunderPunch and Fire Punch once you get Flaaffy and access to Goldenrod City. Though Mareep family is a little slower it is bulkier. Mareep can actually contribute vs Bugsy since Scyther can become a pain in the ass if you don't have Cyndaquil or Spearow (just as examples) and Mareep can beat Pryce, Chuck, and Jasmine's select Pokemon. Hell it's probably one of the better Pokemon to take on Clair's Kingdra. Elite 4 matchups go about like this:

- Somewhat in favor against Wil. Xatu's and Jinx are probably the scarier threats as they hit first before Ampharos, but STAB ThunderPunch does a number to the Xatu's so it's worth considering. Also STAB ThunderPunch is nice versus Slowbro.
- Access to Fire Punch can troll some of Koga's Pokemon, though lack of STAB does mean it takes about 2 to beat Venomoth and Ariados. Crobat kind of hates Ampharos since STAB ThunderPunch will hurt and Wing Attack is resisted.
- Not great vs. Bruno. Slower and no real SE moves.
- Can beat some of Karen's Pokemon (Vileplume and Murkrow) but else would need something like DynamicPunch to bypass Pokemon like Houndoom.
- Beats Gyarados / Aerodactyl / Charizard at least. Slower, though, so likely to take a hit from all three.

It's pretty strong throughout the game and Fire Punch lets it bypass some trollish Pokemon (Grass-types in particular but Piloswine too I guess).

- A Spearow. Should have more info on that soon.
- B Zubat. Anyone outside of Lucchini have experience with this one? The friendship is a so-so detour but it really wants to come around when Chuck is beaten (for STAB Fly). Having only that and Return really seems shoddy for B Tier material (at least Normal-types can mix it up and / or have STAB Return).
- D Bellossom. Fireburn brought it up. I can't really disagree. Also requires going through a Bug Catching Contest and getting first place. Eugh.

 

[Tomy]

- Mareep. Mareep hasn't really been discussed much, but it's pretty cool. It learns ThunderPunch and Fire Punch once you get Flaaffy and access to Goldenrod City. Though Mareep family is a little slower it is bulkier. Mareep can actually contribute vs Bugsy since Scyther can become a pain in the ass if you don't have Cyndaquil or Spearow (just as examples) and Mareep can beat Pryce, Chuck, and Jasmine's select Pokemon. Hell it's probably one of the better Pokemon to take on Clair's Kingdra. Elite 4 matchups go about like this:

- Somewhat in favor against Wil. Xatu's and Jinx are probably the scarier threats as they hit first before Ampharos, but STAB ThunderPunch does a number to the Xatu's so it's worth considering. Also STAB ThunderPunch is nice versus Slowbro.
- Access to Fire Punch can troll some of Koga's Pokemon, though lack of STAB does mean it takes about 2 to beat Venomoth and Ariados. Crobat kind of hates Ampharos since STAB ThunderPunch will hurt and Wing Attack is resisted.
- Not great vs. Bruno. Slower and no real SE moves.
- Can beat some of Karen's Pokemon (Vileplume and Murkrow) but else would need something like DynamicPunch to bypass Pokemon like Houndoom.
- Beats Gyarados / Aerodactyl / Charizard at least. Slower, though, so likely to take a hit from all three.

It's pretty strong throughout the game and Fire Punch lets it bypass some trollish Pokemon (Grass-types in particular but Piloswine too I guess).

I actually agree. Ampharos is quite strong, Fire/Electric coverage is actually pretty good, and 90/75/90 defenses are solid. It is quite slow but doesn't have any bad matchups. It has a slow start, as it has actually no grind a couple of levels before learning Thundershock (Because Tackle tickles, lol). Ampharos learns Iron Tail too, maybe useful to threaten Jynx and maybe Onix? 75 Attack isn't terrible, and Jynx's physical bulk is non-existent. Thunder Punch / Thunder Wave / Iron Tail / Fire Punch seems to be a good option.

I'm fine with either A or B.

 

[atsync]

Mareep should be A at least. It's an early route Pokemon with great stats and access to strong moves relatively early, and it deals with plenty of Gym Leader/Elite 4 Pokemon well. It's actually not all that different from Magmar really, at least in terms of coverage. It has flaws but they are so minor. The issue with Tackle only lasts for a few levels, and its Speed problem can be mitigated somewhat by being at a higher level than most opponents. Obviously things like Crobat and Alakazam are likely to outspeed though.

Since Psyduck and Wooper have gone up, perhaps Lapras can go up too?

I don't have a huge issue with Spearow moving to A.

My experiences with Zubat aren't like what Lucchini was proposing but I have used it. I caught mine in Dark Cave near the start. I didn't really like it much because its movepool is so bad, but at the very least its typing is useful at certain points. It can deal with most of Sprout Tower by itself, and it can stop Bugsy's Scyther getting carried away with Fury Cutter if not actually beat it. I found that Golbat DOES evolve before Fly but only just. That probably depends on what you are doing beforehand though - it may evolve sooner or later depending on how big your team is and how much walking you do. If you are worried about it not evolving in time you could very easily do the Mahogany Town stuff first. Golbat's Happiness should definitely be enough to evolve by then.

If I was tiering just based on my own experiences then I would oppose Zubat being placed in B, but maybe Lucchini's method is more efficient...

I don't remember Bellossom being terrible but it wasn't really that great either, and when you take obtaining Sun Stone into account I guess it is a terrible choice. To be fair, Sun Stone really isn't THAT hard to get but it is luck based and just catching Scyther/Pinsir doesn't guarantee a win. It might seem odd to have Bellossom and GS Vileplume in the same tier, but when you think about it Gloom's SpA and Speed are only marginally lower than Bellossom's and it gets STAB on Sludge Bomb to cancel out the Atk disadvantage (i.e. you aren't really losing a whole lot by skipping Sun Stone and waiting for Leaf Stone in Kanto, aside from some bulk).

 

[Lucchini]

Can't all the Glooms just move down to D tier anyway? Evolving Gloom early, doesn't matter into what, just means you're missing out on L44 Petal Dance (70 BP in this gen), causing Vileplume and Bellossom to not have any decent offensive moves until Sludge Bomb and no grass-type stronger than Absorb until Erika's gym. Should you evolve Gloom before L24, you won't even have Acid, with Cut being your best move. It'll rely on Return for offence and that's a sad state of affairs indeed.

Besides, Sun Stone's opportunity cost is mostly comparable to Leaf Stone's opportunity cost in Crystal.

 

[DHR-107]

Okay, so I've started playing a game last night and have beaten the Rival.

What Mons do you guys want me to try? I've got Chikorita atm, and nothing else. I'm going to use the trade Onix to get past Falkner, what else needs looking at? I don't really mind how bad/good it is :P

 

[Random Passerby]

I am thinking of replaying Crystal so is there any particular Pokemon that you want me to test out? Note that I won't be able to do trade in general .

 

[Lucchini]

DHR, which game are you playing?

Random Passerby, could you try using Golbat? Catch a low-levelled one with a Friend Ball in Mt Mortar after Whitney and see if it's as good as I argued, for example.

 

[DHR-107]

DHR, which game are you playing?

Random Passerby, could you try using Golbat? Catch a low-levelled one with a Friend Ball in Mt Mortar after Whitney and see if it's as good as I argued, for example.

Oh yeah oops. Gold. I want to see if 10 year old me is any better with Chikorita or whether it really is as bad as I remember :P

 

[Random Passerby]

DHR, which game are you playing?

Random Passerby, could you try using Golbat? Catch a low-levelled one with a Friend Ball in Mt Mortar after Whitney and see if it's as good as I argued, for example.

Are we allowed to mess with the in-game time? Because GSC has time-based events like the Return TM (Sunday), Bug Catching Contest (to grind the bat) and the haircut brothers (to raise happiness).

 

[Colonel M]

Are we allowed to mess with the in-game time? Because GSC has time-based events like the Return TM (Sunday), Bug Catching Contest (to grind the bat) and the haircut brothers (to raise happiness).

Within reason.

Also carry the egg with you from the daycare and let us know when it hatches. You dont have to use the Pokemon.

If someone is willing - Slowpoke was a Pokemon I thought should be tested. Much like Psyduck it can be caught later if you want (after Surf). I doubt STAB Confusion is groundbreaking for it though.

Others to possibly test IMO are:

- Nidorans (worthy of A for sure despite backtracking for Moon Stone?)
- Zubat
- Magmar (mainly to see if S Tier worthy)
- Chinchou (requires a detour)
- Crystal Cubone
- Sandshrew
- Kingdra

 

[DHR-107]

I can try out Slowpoke and Zubat. Those two are no problem :P

Can only Crobat learn fly in Gen 2?

 

[dwarfstar]

DHR-107 Yeah, neither Zubat nor Golbat got Fly until 4th-gen.

 

[Lucchini]

Gold seems like an excellent excuse to try out Mareep as well (who's been called "at least A" and "at most A" depending on whom you ask). I personally don't see such a slowmon getting to the highest tier myself, though, but it's somewhat comparable to the two best starters at least (in all ways besides speed).

 

[Millky95]

- Nidorans (worthy of A for sure despite backtracking for Moon Stone?)
- Sandshrew

In Crystal, Nidoran is A did that test myself. GS probably C, I dont think a non evolved Nido would be very good for Morty onwards.

Got up to Red with Sandshrew before some stuff happened. Slash is nice, very Earthquake reliant though. B at best maybe C