Metagame np: Stage 3 - 9(9) Problems

[rhydonphilip]

Don't realy see why you would run an set like that for vileplume when you can run a Roselia
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 168+ SpD Vileplume: 198-234 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 133-156 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO
yes it won't take 2 CC's from sawk@choise band but it's not made to be a defencive wall.

But even this isn't very viable against serperior because it would still get 2HKO'd with SR up
i think it's bad to see how pokes like vileplume loses it's most potential uses by being a very bulky all around defencive wall en becoming an mixed wall just for 1 poke. Like stated above it's a lose of potential just to answere 1 poke.

 

[Mistrals]

Things tend to take less damage when they have more investment in defenses.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Vileplume: 185-218 (52.4 - 61.7%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 133-156 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO

Well, it's not like Roselia isn't notably bulkier specially even with the same investment and not having black sludge recovery. The only major reason I can really see to run sp. def Vileplume is that it takes physical attacks better like scarfed Sawk Close Combat, but you can probably just make a Roselia spread that takes hits about the same or better and have hazards so..

 

[Punchshroom]

The biggest reason Serperior is able to have such a polarizing effect on the meta, aside from its speed, is the utter freedom in move choices it has. People have argued that Serperior's poor coverage holds it back, but this also implies Serperior can run whatever the hell it wants in its remaining moveslots. All it really needs is Leaf Storm, and pretty much all Serperiors becomes equally threatening and carry the same sweeping potential as a result.

Then you have to deal with its other attacks, and this is a rare case where the lack of coverage actually makes Serperior more unpredictable, because you can't really discern a true 'standard' for its movesets. Hidden Power Fire is the closest to a standard coverage move you can get, but then Serperior has moves like:

- Knock Off; to cripple Eviolite users and remove Leftovers, which is notable on mons with no recovery (Bouffalant)
- Dual Screens; can lead to 'out of the frying pan and into the fire' situations, except the 'frying pan' (Serperior) is still going strong :/, not to mention this is often paired with Taunt to stop Defog and shit
- Wrap; to do chip damage and prevent double switching, which can lead to the same situations as above
- Gastro Acid; if Serperior hits your (weakened) Sap Sipper switch-in with this, something's gonna have to eat that Leaf Storm
- Substitute; acts as a buffer to status and thwarts revenge killing (except Bug Buzz users)
- Glare; in case u thought it would be pretty safe to switch in your faster / Scarfed Grass-type resist to check Serperior
- Mirror Coat; straight up OHKOes your bulky special check, namely Vileplume, Roselia, Lampent...

With the exception of Dual Screens (which becomes a different kind of threat altogether), who's to say Serperior cannot run a combination of any two moves listed above (granted, Sub + Mirror Coat is a bad combo, but don't put words in my mouth >:[ )? Let's not forget that Serperior can still do a complete 180' using its Swords Dance set, which is still a threat in its own right.

You have close to no idea what other moves Contrary Serperior could be running until it chooses to reveal them, meaning it can be extremely tricky to truly prepare for it. Serperior is the one who chooses what stops it and what doesn't, not the opponent.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

don't forget Dragon Tail Serp paired with Spikes stacking. marilli posted a team in the teambuilding compilation with it and allows Serp to screw with Sap Sippers switching in and basically force every turn into a 50-50 which Serp loses nothing from losing.

Later in the game, Serp makes prediction games extremely warped because the Sap Sippers are basically forced to switch directly into it, or risk Serp gaining enough boosts to simply break past them anyway. This makes it a lot easier to Dragon Tail to shuffle stuff around.

I agree that its high Speed is the main factor why it is broken though. Can we get on with a suspect sooner rather than later?

 

[boltsandbombers]

According to the NU IRC chat, a suspect will be posted today by either zeb or ras.
Just about everything has been said so far, but to sum things up from my perspective: When you have to run extremely niche counters to said threat, it is unhealthy. As Punch said, its vast movepool is one if its best qualities, as it can pick and choose what utility moves it wants - since all it basically needs is leaf storm.
Also, if you run things like SpD Vileplume it makes you significantly weaker to threats like Feraligatr, which is not good.

 

[jake]

Thanks to Game Freak's unfortunate timing, we have to deal with /ONE MORE/ major suspect before we finally settle down with our metagame. To add to that, there is only a small window of time that we have to ensure our tier is optimally balanced, thanks to SPL, so we will have one last quickban test prior to future public voting tests.

We will be testing Serperior. It will be based on Council vote, just like the prior two votes (and should it remain in BL3, it has the potential to be retested later on like all other quickbans). The vote will last until the end of this week, at which time votes from the Council will be accepted. Sorry for the brief post, it's really late and I'm about to head to bed, so please leave any questions related to the test and we'll make sure to answer them ASAP. All discussion on Serperior will take place in this thread.

:)

 

[Brambane]

Serperior is so bone-crushingly good it brought me back to playing competitively again, I haven't had this much fun playing competitive Pokemon in ages.

Like really tho it has a 130 BP STAB Nasty Plot and can actually 2HKO Typhlosion 100% of the time with it, nothing about that sounds remotely balanced lmao.

You don't beat Serperior man, you survive it.

 

[Raikaria]

Serp has arguments both for it being banned and against it.

Leaf Storm is insane, but at the same time... it's Leaf Storm, and that is honestly more or less all Serperior has. Serperior's coverage is literally the definition of godawful. It's Quad-Resisted by Grass/Poison; Bug/Poison; and Bug/Flying types which are here; and there are also Sap Sipper pokemon; such as Boffulant.

On the other hand, Serperior is fast, has just enough bulk and special attack to both take hits and deal decent damage even at +0; and since most things which can safely take two Leaf Storms are either Grass or Bug type; they can be decimated by a +2 Hidden Power Fire. [So can any Steel types; such as Evolite Metang]

About the only hard counter to Serp is Boffulant, who is not weak to Fire; and completely negates Leaf Storm on the switch-in due to Sap Sipper, very little else has a chance of switching in on Leaf Storm and then taking either a second Leaf Storm or a +2 Hidden Power Fire. And of those, most of them lack the damage to OHKO Serperior in turn; especially since a lot of things need to invest into bulk to switch in if they do not resist Grass.

It's a one-trick pony, but it's honestly too good at that one trick to be llowed in NU. You can build around it, but the simple fact is that you have to build around it, or you lose. And that leaves you wide open for any other threat.

I mean; Serperior's moveset is literally Leaf Storm/Hidden Power Fire/Dragon Pulse/Filler; and even then; Dragon Pulse is basically filler in itself since you're hitting virtually everything harder with HP Fire or Leaf Storm anyway; it'sw just there because it's literally Serperior's only other special move other than Hyper Beam. The best option for the 4th slot is probobly Giga Drain. Doubleing up on Grass STAB is always a sign your movepool is barren. A barren movepool is the only reason one can even think of keeping Serp in NU.

And honestly if you keep something which can deal with the likes of Vileplume or Boffulant in your team, there is very, very little preventing a Serperior sweep. Even if you can switch in, nothing traps it.

It's not that there is no answer, it's that you basically need to have multiple answers to Serperior. It dosen't help that most answers for Serp are either free setups for Steel types [Bug/Grass/Poison types]; or are free Samuwott set-ups [Fire-types].

 

[Steakburgers]

Bouff is not a hard counter to serp... I dunno why people say that
D-tail exists, and its literally an amazing move on serp
D-tail them out on the switch in to build more hazard damage, WHICH, if you're using the d-tail set right, you'll have a hazard stacking team
I dunno about you, but i dont want my bouff to keep switching in on hazard damage

 

[Helias]

People say Bouff is a hard counter to Serperior because they forget it has more than Leaf Storm for moves (which is admittedly understandable but that's not the point).

 

[Ares]

People say Bouff is a hard counter to Serperior because they forget it has more than Leaf Storm for moves (which is admittedly understandable but that's not the point).

All the rest of its coverage moves are pretty weak, and it doesn't get the best coverage. Literally has a Hidden Power and Dragon Pulse for special coverage.

 

[Punchshroom]

All the rest of its coverage moves are pretty weak, and it doesn't get the best coverage. Literally has a Hidden Power and Dragon Pulse for special coverage.

Then you have to deal with its other attacks, and this is a rare case where the lack of coverage actually makes Serperior more unpredictable, because you can't really discern a true 'standard' for its movesets.

Mont, it's like you forgot the whole reason Serp is dangerous in the first place. It's never the 'neutral coverage' that establishes Serperior as the threat it is now; it's because you can run Leaf Storm + pretty much any 3 other moves you'd care to use and you can still find Serperior pretty well sorted for itself, since Serp has ways around all of its responses and all it really needs is its Leaf Storm. Bouffalant is one of Serperior's biggest obstacles to overcome, but with well-timed Dragon Tails (+ hazard support) followed by Gastro Acids on the switch, Serperior can still very well net some kills even with Bouffalant present. The fact that even one of Serp's best counters may not be the most optimal switch-in is terrifying when you consider how little Pokemon in the tier can actually afford to switch into Serp. This leads to teams running multiple Serp counters / checks just to be safe and sure, which in turn leads to overcentralisation.

 

[MrCookiepants]

I was running a terrible Serp set with Sub/Torment (not effective even as a gimmick lol) and I still managed to sweep easily with just Leaf Storm and HP Fire. Coverage really isn't an issue when your STAB is so powerful at +2.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Typhlosion: 218-257 (73.4 - 86.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

NU can't handle this.

 

[HJAD]

NU can't handle this.

The general consensus with Serperior isn't that NU can't handle it. We are perfectly capable of handling it as an individual Pokémon. We have mons like Bouffalant, Miltank, Scyther, Muk to counter it as well as several scarfers that can check it. NU can handle this threat.

The problem which I, as well as everyone else think is that the Pokémon is overcentralizing, not that its broken.

When a Pokémon is overcentralizing you have to run obscure mons just to counter it and account for it in every aspect in team building out of fear. The pure fact that you want to run a sap sipper + 4x grass resist JUST for Serperior is why I think it should leave the tier.

When a Pokémon is broken, it has few checks, few counters and in a battle claims a few lives at least ( from a walls perspective, walling the entireity of the opponents team)
Serperior does not fit in this bracket since by using the afforementioned Bouffalant or [insert sap sipper] , the amount of 'live claiming' Serperior can do is minimal, without giving the Bouff a free +1.

What Serp does is limit teambuilding and the teambuilding options you have, since if you aren't running a sap sipper or strong resist, you can kiss your hopes to winning goodbye. That is why it should leave, if you think its broken and uncounterable, you're just salty that it swept your team and had to change it :l

tl;dr serp ain't broke, just really overcentralizing

 

[Brambane]

Overcentralization should almost never be merit for banning. It is an innate part of the game. Every metagame has sweepers that you have to prepare for. Feraligatr, for example, is centralizing similar to Serperior. Of course, the Pokemon that deal with Feraligatr (Ludicolo, Ferroseed, Lanturn, etc) are dominant Pokemon in the metagame as well, in no small part due to their ability to handle Feraligatr better than other Pokemon. If Serperior was left where it is, although even if we don't ban Serperior it would rise to RU, but I digress, Bouffalant, Muk, Vileplume, Miltank and Scyther would become more dominant (and have higher Viability Rankings) as the metagame shifted to deal with the new threat. Overcentralization and having to adjust for it is just part of the game and teambuilding.

Serperior is 100% the best Support/Utility Pokemon the metagame. It can Taunt, Knock Off, Leech Seed, Glare, set up Dual Screens and phase with Dragon Tail, all of which are great traits to have in such a fantastically fast and reasonably bulky Pokemon. But what makes Serperior different than any other support Pokemon and in my opinion completely broken is with two moves, Leaf Storm and Hidden Power, it can go "oh, Stealth Rock is up now and Bouffalant/Swellow/Muk/whatever your Serp check is dead, time to sweep." It can then use its 130 BASE POWER STAB NASTY PLOT (SRSLY WTF) to basically deathball through everything while naturally out speeding most of the tier and being notably bulky as well. No other Support Pokemon has sweeping potential that high. If seen purely as a sweeper, Serperior seems bad but manageable. But as a Pokemon that can cripple the other team, rack hazard damage or set up screens and then in the span of a single move transition into special sweeper, I see Serperior as horribly unbalanced. Fun, in my opinion, but unbalanced.

VVV edit response:
I never meant to compare the power between Feraligatr and Seperior as it would indeed be asinine. Feraligatr needs a turn to SD/DD while Serperior needs a turn to fire off a 130 STAB nuke to boost. You can't compare that. I compared them since they force centralization in the same way: Feraligatr requires you to run checks/counters on your team if you don't want to get swept by it. This also applies to Serperior, as well as other Pokemon like Typhlosion. As for the Pokemon I listed, which aren't the sole answers to Serp ftr, only Muk and maybe Miltank (I think her other abilities are better than Sap Sipper, but that depends on your team and set I guess) I would say are useful solely for stopping Serp, but Vileplume, Bouffalant and Scyther are all usable Pokemon that do more than just kill snakes. They are just more valued now for their ability to "handle" Serperior, although even then, Serperior has ways around them which it can afford to run, which is something other centralizing Pokemon cannot as easily say.

 

[Steakburgers]

Feraligatr is no where near as centralizing as serperior
Those checks you just mentioned are actually viable against other mons
BOuff, Muk, Miltank? They will hardly be seen once serp is gone, and there is no denying that
"Oh you can use muk for liligant and bouff for liligant too, but liligant is nowhere near the level serp has risen to
all of these checks are easily managed by the many support options that serp has available, and heck, it only needs one. D-tail
I don't see feraligatr being able to phaze out most of its checks for one, having a 130 bp nasty plot for 2, and if you can find a feraligatr set that does that, heck maybe we should suspect Feral too
Putting Feral and Serperior in the same mold right now is asinine.

 

[jake]

grass snake is banned via majority vote, i'll make a real post about it tomorrow

 

[boltsandbombers]

Hooray! Playable more enjoyable metagame :D

 

[Kingler]

Although this was mostly expected, NU will certainly become a more fun tier to play after the ban of Serp.

 

[CanadianWifier]

Finally, people will stop using Sap Sipper mons on every fucking team, and Lilligant will be useful again.. That was a frustrating few weeks as a Lilli user x_x

 

[marilli]

"ive had enough with these motherfuckin snakes in this motherfuckin metagame"

Mont Edit: I'll allow it marilli, I enjoye it lol

 

[Brawlfest]

Finally, people will stop using Sap Sipper mons on every fucking team, and Lilligant will be useful again.. That was a frustrating few weeks as a Lilli user x_x

I'm still spamming bouff mainly because it's still a great pokemon to be using since it rips apart stall [a lot more common now], Lilli [a lot more common now], and sets up on Plume and Ferro, which for some reason everybody on the ladder seems to want to have.

 

[Deej Dy]

I'm still spamming bouff mainly because it's still a great pokemon to be using since it rips apart stall [a lot more common now], Lilli [a lot more common now], and sets up on Plume and Ferro, which for some reason everybody on the ladder seems to want to have.

True, don't forget megahorn for Malamar ;)

 

[Brawlfest]

True, don't forget megahorn for Malamar ;)

or just have an actual malamar check hello?

 

[Deej Dy]

or just have an actual malamar check hello?

Such as?
I'm not trying to run signal beam on Xatu and Mesprit and get hard walled by the 200% usage M-Steelix (or literally anything steel type). Accelgor sucks and is possibly rising. Scyther is alright, but again walled hard by megalix/any rock type and needs extensive hazard support...

With all the Serp hype I think you forgot about how potent Malamar is, you will be reminded shortly '-'