Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[AM]

Ok so here's some things I was thinking about or noticed on the rankings.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the concept of Frosslass at the moment. It's not so much about its initial placement more so of the fact there's some stuff that's not even ranked that I would prefer using because they have more useful traits and the fact we already have suicide leads and spin-blockers in the meta already. So for anyone who is actually familiar with offense that utilizes Froslass and doesn't just go off of pure theorymon some words on this would be nice. It's been ranked for a long time now and really needs to be looked at more thoroughly since it's gone through like 10 different meta shifts minimum since XY.

Volcarona I'd like to see rise to B at least because it's a really strong underrated threat and can be a dangerous win condition. Some of the problems it has such as an SR weakness, Tflame weak, and a typing that sort of forces it to pick and choose what it beats are the big issues with it I find. However if we're looking at it from the perspective of an offensive threat I find it on par with the likes of Victini and Weavile in terms of their capabilities and effectiveness, which fall under the B rank. With the ability to break down Balanced builds with set up + Life Orb along with optional tools such as Passho Berry to set up on water types and Lum to mitigate status, I feel Volcarona is notch above the B- category which for the most part is home to pretty linear offensive Pokemon and is more suited to B due to a little bit more freedom and the ability to take down an assortment of builds in the meta.

Emboar for anything above C- is sort of nuts if you're going to really consider Emboar more viable and more effective than Infernape, something that has way more tools at its disposal to prove effective. The only real thing that Emboar has going for it is the ability to wall-break a bit more effectively due to Reckless. Outside of this Infernape has the ability to run mixed sets, scarf set, lead set, or set up sets if we're going off of just the simple aspects it's able to pull off. Emboar to me is C- by virtue of the fact that C- is occupied with pretty niche mons to begin with that are either mediocre as a whole or just outclassed. I think the Emboar hype is really high right now and is why people want it anywhere above C-. To be frank I think D is even more suitable but I'll give others the benefit of the doubt for now.

That's all I can say for now. If anyone is interested in my opinion on the topics of discussion just let me know.

 

[Kurona]

Can I nominate Dugtrio for at least C? I know it might be a bit of a victim of overhype but tbh; the fact it supports so many new Megas like Pidgeot and such and the sash set having the ability to trap and kill Metagross by revenge kill is pretty damn immense in this meta.
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 168-198 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It also feels like it's way above the other C- 'mon who are either very outclassed or fit every specific roles; Dugtrio can fit on many offence teams and provides great support to a lot of 'mon in comparison.

 

[ssjjynx]

I think Froslass is just fine in D rank. It fills the criteria that D rank pokemon must meet, and it does it's job a lot better than other pokemon in D rank do theirs.

"Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams."
That describes Froslass fairly well. On something like balance or stall, the use of Froslass would be foolhardy, but on offence it can be used as a dedicated lead, similar to how Azelf is used on hyper offence. The differences are, Azelf can do significantly more jobs, is 9 times out of 10 a better choice as a dedicated lead, and can deal with certain common opposing leads better. But Froslass' advantages over Azelf are the fact that it can be used as a spin-blocker, has ice beam to deal with non-scarf lead landot, uses spikes instead of stealth rock (which is very useful on offence, to rack up passive damage upon each switch), and also has destiny bond to either secure a kill, or scare your opponent away from attacking.

"These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that."

Froslass doesn't quite have a solid niche, as there are many other, arguably better, options. And the only job Froslass can do is the role of a dedicated lead. It has no other viable set for this meta.

"Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it."

It has a multitude of crippling flaws, in that it loses to a wide variety of common leads (ferrothorn, heatran, rotom-w, azelf etc), has barely any offensive presence (which is extremely important on hyper offensive teams, which are pretty much the only teams on which Froslass' usage is justifiable), and it is severely outclassed by the likes of sash terrak, sash aerodactyl, and sash azelf.

Froslass has one role in the current meta, and while there are certain pokemon that do portions of this job far better, Froslass does have some portions of a niche, which is really all that is required of a pokemon in order to be D rank.
Froslass to stay D.

 

[Mur]

Excadrill to A+: I feel like exca just really deserves this atm since tyranitar+hippo are coming back giving sand offense a new life(as if it left). Having the ability to run an assortment of sets depending on it's team is such a fantastic quality that it should always be looked at when discussing a rank up. Having the ability to go mold breaker rapid spin, LO sand rush spin, LO SD sand rush, choice scarf, and the various bulky spreads is just a testament to how well excadrill can preform on any team with the vast amount of offensive presence+support it provides in one team slot. How many roles exca covers at once is also just ridiculous. It can be a win con, hazard removal, revenge killer, and wallbreaker all at once which again just shows how useful excadrill is to the user. Although it requires a bit more support in taking down it's counters this can easily be said about things in A+ such as CM clef who needs some support before it really sweeps and clef is clearly one of the strongest A+ mons right now since it was even considered to move up to the prestige S rank. Overall I'd say excadrill is a very consistent and powerful mon that offers a variety of roles with little risk and all the rewards to gain in just one mon making it a clear candidate for A+.

Keldeo to S: Imo I don't know how this can not happen at this point. Similar to lando-t keldeo is very easy to slap on during teambuilding and works especially well with a lot of the new megas most notably metagross who happens to be the best offensive poke in the tier right now. Also due to keld's raw power from the specs set and the setup capabilities of subCM keldeo is incredibly hard to switch into because you're risking either keld setting up a sub or getting blasted by a high powered move every time it comes in. This leads to another point that using keld has almost no risk or prediction at all just because of how spammable water+fighting STAB is. Not to mention one of those moves has burn rate that even counters like the latis and Mvenu hate getting. The gren ban helped out too as it was a common check to keld and gave it a bit of competition on offensive teams for an offensive water type.

In relation to keldeo and S rank I'd like to make a comment on the whole situation regarding the standards for S rank. Before this update during the whole clefable thing I was one who nominated it for S rank and gave imo a decent post regarding my thoughts. After this update though I now see how I, and many others, got kind of soft on what is S rank material. While clef is an amazing mon and has a lot of qualities of some S rank pokes the key ingredient we all missed was how meta defining it actually is. Looking at the other S ranks its very obvious how they all shape the meta due to their characteristics. Mmeta being the massive powerhouse of the tier providing mind blowing power for it's teams to crush walls and create massive gaps that the whole meta needs to be prepared for. Mlop outspeeds a large portion of the unboosted meta with unresisted, high powered STAB moves and a massive list of options to abuse on a multitude of offensive teams to do/beat whatever it's team needs. Msab literally gave an entire playstyle a new life with it's ridiculous utility and ability to completely dominate the hazard game until it's death. Lando-t is the ultimate glue on any team style with it's ever growing pool of usable sets so chances are it will always be an option to use on almost any team you choose to build. The common quality that all of these mons contain that gives them that S rank is not only how good they are but this combined with how they dictate the meta on a large scale. I won't go into detail with that because then we'd all be here forever but I think it's pretty obvious how the whole tier is affected by these mons. Clefable simply did not do this as it's characteristics do not really make it define the meta on the scale that these other mons do. So how does this long ass post relate to keldeo? Well if you look at how keldeo functions right now it's quickly becoming one of those meta game defining mons. With gren gone it is the uncontested best offensive water type(an important role considering how good water is offensively) in the tier capable of sweeping or wallbreaking with any of it's sets. The use of keldeo has almost zero risks and a high amount of rewards which are received almost every game which is a similar quality to lando-t. By itself it is an omnipresent threat that you have to be prepared for regardless of what you're using as just running the latis for your counter just is not enough anymore.

So tl;dr keldeo is a massive threat due to how well it pairs up with new and old high tier mons, it's brilliant characteristics, and how it shapes the meta similar to how it did when it was S in the past so move keldeo to S rank this one actually deserves it!

 

[astroboy]

Ninetales for rank D, is not a stronger pokémon but is a verry good suport sunny day invoker.
With Heat Rock is the best pokémon for start sunny day on the team. And in my team is awesome in Over Used.
Mega charizard Y is not a good sunny day invoker, it is a killer. it has good sp atack. Ninetales is a better support and dont have 4x weakness SR.

Ninetales max ev speed and max hp/sp atack/or sp def is awesome. Solar beam, flamethower, Hidden Power rock and hypnosis. (Other sets is viable, the principal is Heat Rock)

Heat Rock ninetales is awesome support for Clhorophyll pokémon, good support for fire pokémons, good suport versus whater pokémon. Sunny day is a good move in pokémon. Yes ninetales is not stronger, but depending on the team can be very good.

I use ninetales and have no problems with sandstorm team, as my team can work around the situation and the ninetales only use to invoke sun and shooting from the field. It is very strong, and can use depending offensively too, if you have any Pokémon you see that ninetales easy kills does not have to switch Pokémon.

Anyway, if you know use is a great Pokemon in over used. I can say this because we tested it on plenty of times, and to suport ninetales is much better than mega charizard y.

Do not criticize my English, we are here to discuss Pokemon and not all speak their native language.

welcome to smogon!
but, ninetales is 9 (no pun intended) times outta 10 outclassed by charizard-y. while ninetales has niche moves like hypnosis, thats largely unreliable and really risky. another thing is that charizard y holds immediate power, whereas ninetales would have to use nasty plot to hold an offensive presence. ninetales is a support pokemon, yes, but there arent many good sun partners. something i think that would be kinda cool would be megahoundoom/ninetales, as houndoom can use the sun from ninetales to boost its special attack, but id personally rather use charizard-y as its not as relient on another mon, and can function well.
but, anyways

most of the time i use sun, its not because i want to use a sun team, its that i use charizard-y. sun isnt particularly good, or atleast not as good as chary.
so if i want i want to use sun, i might as well run chary or no sun at all.

 

[AM]

Mega Charizard y and ninetails are quite different. Ninetails is to support sunny day, only this. And plays very well since they do not need to use any movement, just enter the field and sert exchanged for another Pokémon.

Not only do these examples, but many Pokemon can take advantage of sunny day, and ninetails certainly can support better than mega charizard y since 5 sunny day shifts are insufficient for a good sweep. Moreover ninetails can invoke sun about 3 times in the game without dying.

Ninetais invokes and goes out of bounds, simple as that.

I deleted all the calcs in the the quote that I'm replying to because they were pretty irrelevant in proving your point. All these mons you mentioned which I'm assuming is on your team are all destroyed by Talonflame, a very prominent threat in the meta-game and one that is one of many causes that using sun teams brings to the table in a problematic fashion. Using a support mon that provides a trait that is niche in value that is borderline on the level of Hail is not something that is even worth ranking. Idk if this stemmed from the regular Venu debate that happened shortly but there's a difference between weather cores and weather teams and knowing the difference of which ones are actually effective is pretty important. Also when providing a calc please do not cherry pick ones that are entirely in your favor cause it doesn't take a calc to show you that those grass types mentioned are swept clean by Talonflame.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

My problem with Ninetales isn't really Charizard-Y, but moreso the sun playstyle itself. The problem with sun as a playstyle is that it's not really cut out to live and thrive in the OU metagame as it stands. Sun teams suffer from a lot of poor synergy, and things like stacked SR weakness, many mons having limited coverage or just being outright bad outside of sun, etc. The fact of the matter is sun cannot really succeed in OU as it stands, because it needs a Chlorophyll sweeper, a wallbreaker, and it definitely needs a hazard remover to keep Rocks off the field. Mega Houndoom is kind of cool under the sun but it's kinda meh on its own if you're trying to use it as a dedicated sun attacker (it's much more self sufficient if you just run a Nasty Plot set), Venusaur is an okay option but it honestly can't really sweep anymore with the support of such an otherwise mediocre Pokemon, tons of stuff beat it nowadays. Tyranitar and to an extent Politoed are decently common so it's kind of easy to remove sun from the field, and many Chlorophyll Pokemon can't function at all without sun, and Mega Houndoom is just asking for Tyranitar to come in. At least Swift Swim users in rain can put up a fight with things like Tyranitar and are generally extremely lethal under rain because their STAB (waterfall+Hydro Pump) get a nifty boost in the rain. No Chlorophyll mon gets this luxury. Sun also struggles with Talonflame, the Latis (to a small extent), and many top mons like Mega Altaria, etc. And finally, you're also running a very sub-par Pokemon to try and bring forth the playstyle, which doesn't work.

Sorry, but I don't see Sun being worth using, and I think Ninetales doesn't really deserve any sort of ranking.

 

[LoDart210]

I stubbornly played sun back in BW, where weather was king, refusing to bow down to the fact that sun was the weakest weather. In fact, the challenge of playing sun against rain and sand was incredibly fun for me in Gen V.


But I digress. Can we stop bringing up ninetales as a sun setter or chlorophyll venusaur or even the subject sun offensive? It's a dead playstyle and any mon or set associated with sun is obsolete.


I don't normally comment on the viability thread, because I don't ladder often, but lately I've been having a spurt of success and I've been aided in that by a certain thunder bird.

Zapdos from B- to B : zapdos is surpsingly useful at checking mMetagross and mLop, as well as mAltaria, among other physical threats. It dropped in prominence when mPinsir did, but the newer threats are still handily answered by Zapdos, who has heat wave and hp ice as useful coverage, but more importantly, support moves in roar and defog.

Good typing, reliable recovery, and useful support moves. Requires little support besides its own defog. Sounds like a solid defensive B mon.

I know the jump from B- to B is negligible but because Zapdos has better utility and survivability as well as overall usefulness and "coverage" in comparison to the other B- defenders, it's a difference worth making.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

Mega Charizard y and ninetails are quite different. Ninetails is to support sunny day, only this. And plays very well since they do not need to use any movement, just enter the field and sert exchanged for another Pokémon.

Mega Charizard Y is much better than ninetails in offensive issues, but 5 of sunny day shift is almost nothing. Houndoom really is amazing next to ninetails, mainly that it can spread fire damages that would kill any Pokemon fire.

The only problem is heatram, but may have some Pokemon on the team that the mate besides Houndoom cause good damage even in Heatran.

252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 220+ SPD Heatran in Sun: 147-174 (38.1 - 45.1%) - guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Max HP and sp def Heatran.

Dont need nast plot, only sun is efficient for many kills.

252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SPD Rotom-W in Sun: 392-462 (128.9 - 151.9%) - guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Solar Power Mega Flamethrower Houndoom vs. 252 HP / 0 SPD Landorus-T in Sun: 421-496 (110.2 - 129.8%) - guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 28 HP / 80 SPD Gengar in Sun: 474-560 (176.8 - 208.9%) - guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Solar Beam vs. 92 HP / 0 SPD Azumarill in Sun: 498-588 (136.8 - 161.5%) - guaranteed OHKO

Not only Houndoom is strong for sunny day.

Exeggutor 383 sp 209 atack speed 330 hp 205 defense 166 sp def. life orb (not scarfed)

252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Ancient Power vs. HP 0/0 SPD Mega Charizard Y: 322-385 (108.4 - 129.6%) - guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Ancient Power vs. 240 HP / 0 SPD Volcarona: 354-416 (95.4 - 112.1%) - 68.8% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SPD Landorus-T: 442-520 (115.7 - 136.1%) - guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SPD Rotom-W: 515-608 (169.4 - 200%) - guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Psychic vs. 232 HP / 4 Spd Mega Venusaur: 351-413 (97.7 - 115%) - 87.5% chance to OHKO

Victreebell would be a great Pokemon to also receive boost sunny day. Mixed, or special.

252+ Atk Life Orb Victreebel Knock Off (BP 97.5) vs. 4 HP / Def 0 Latios: 312-369 (103.3 - 122.1%) - guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Victreebel Knock Off (BP 97.5) vs. HP 0/0 Def Latias: 283-335 (94 - 111.2%) - 68.8% chance to OHKO

100 SpA Life Orb Victreebel Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 100 Spd Mega Scizor in Sun: 567-671 (165.3 - 195.6%) - guaranteed OHKO

100 SpA Life Orb Victreebel Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 168 Spd Ferrothorn in Sun: 473-562 (134.3 - 159.6%) - guaranteed OHKO

100 SpA Life Orb Victreebel Hidden Power Ice vs. HP 0 / 0- SPD Landorus: 333-395 (104.3 - 123.8%) - guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Victreebel Power Whip vs. 252 HP / Def 212+ Rotom-W: 343-406 (112.8 - 133.5%) - guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Victreebel Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 439-523 (128.7 - 153.3%) - guaranteed OHKO

Not only do these examples, but many Pokemon can take advantage of sunny day, and ninetails certainly can support better than mega charizard y since 5 sunny day shifts are insufficient for a good sweep. Moreover ninetails can invoke sun about 3 times in the game without dying.

Ninetais invokes and goes out of bounds, simple as that.

AM Edit: Edited this part out -.- Lol AM you funny goof

Id like to talk about Victini. Honestly, I think putting it at B rank is downgrading it way too much. It is an above average revenge killer, taking out prominent threats like MMeta, MLop, MBee, MGyara if not at +2, etc. Sure it may not be weak but that V Create hits hella hard and you really dont need Jolly on a Scarf at base 100. It also just has a great defensive typing with exceptional 100/100/100 defensive stats. Its also a prominent MMeta check without EQ. B+ imo.

 

[AM]

Talonflame really kills many Pokémon fast plant, this does not mean that they do not serve as sweeper. Since talonflame takes damage from stealth rock or a stone Pokémon that bar him.

Why put as rank D, sunny day team can be used in over used but can wreak havoc, just need a good team and think about it.

No need to put all Pokémon that benefit in sunny, two or three is itself sufficient.

Talonflame is not the biggest problem because after you kill it is free for the sweep, the biggest problem is Heatran. Good'm not saying sunny day can be used in OU, I'm saying it may be used and can be very strong.

Problems with Politoed and Tyranitar can be solved with a simple Victreebel. I even showed up there, mixed Victreebel has more speed than Tyranitar and most do not exchange Pokémon. Moreover the team can have a good Conters against talonflame and Heatran, not only need to have Pokémon plant and fire.

But you need to have a specific team, why it is rank D, why do you need a team that runs on sunny day, and is not very difficult. Only use a little head that you can create a sunny day team that wins many matches in Over Used.
Team sunny day can be very strong, just need a good team.

I'm just going to respond to you once more before I go on a long debate about something that more than likely won't be seeing the light of D anytime soon. It's blatantly obvious that your experience in the OU tier is one that shows very low ladder quality traits if you're implying that Victreebel and Exeggutor have some legitimate use in any above average game. I strongly advise you to go here where you can find a mentor to help you get accustomed to OU with a bit more legitimacy. If you have real questions or concerns feel free to message me but until you've established with concrete reasoning through high ladder games that what you speak on is actually effective, I advise you to take some time to actually learn the meta we're discussing with relevant information before posting in the thread again. I don't want the thread to detract from its intended purpose so everyone continue discussing points that are not related to this matter. Thank you.

 

[astroboy]

Id like to talk about Victini. Honestly, I think putting it at B rank is downgrading it way too much. It is an above average revenge killer, taking out prominent threats like MMeta, MLop, MBee, MGyara if not at +2, etc. Sure it may not be weak but that V Create hits hella hard and you really dont need Jolly on a Scarf at base 100. It also just has a great defensive typing with exceptional 100/100/100 defensive stats. Its also a prominent MMeta check without EQ. B+ imo.

slight nitpick, but if youre running scarftini, wouldnt jolly actually be optimal to outspeed jolly scarf lando-t?
i generally do agree with tini moving up tho. ive been using a sub-pup set, and its been really effective (dont have any replays saved but yeah) and ive been hearing good things about the stallbreaker set, and being a check to metagross is always welcome

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

I'm just going to respond to you once more before I go on a long debate about something that more than likely won't be seeing the light of D anytime soon. It's blatantly obvious that your experience in the OU tier is one that shows very low ladder quality traits if you're implying that Victreebel and Exeggutor have some legitimate use in any above average game. I strongly advise you to go here where you can find a mentor to help you get accustomed to OU with a bit more legitimacy. If you have real questions or concerns feel free to message me but until you've established with concrete reasoning through high ladder games that what you speak on is actually effective, I advise you to take some time to actually learn the meta we're discussing with relevant information before posting in the thread again. I don't want the thread to detract from its intended purpose so everyone continue discussing points that are not related to this matter. Thank you.

That brings me back to the times when i was a piece of crap who didnt know anything...
Oh wait...

To add more to my sentence, I really am struggling to see why it is in B. It is an above par mon, and definetly is better than almost anything in B. IMO it should go to B+ and no higher.

Also on the topic of Tflame, Just stay in A+. It really hasnt gotten any better...

Also another thing to add into this is that I think we should demote Magnezone to B+. Its not needed anymore and even then most of the things it traps adapted to it. Having better and stronger and faster implications (Raikou, MMan, etc.) this guy isnt needed. Still p good.

 

[ssjjynx]

That brings me back to the times when i was a piece of crap who didnt know anything

And we wonder why most people feel that smogon isn't a welcoming community.

Anyway, what you need to keep in mind is that everytime victini uses v-create, it has to switch out if it wants to last. And with a weakness to stealth rock, switching out isn't something victini will be able to easily do while also maintaining a desirable amount of hp. Every common pokemon with a stealth rock weakness (bar exceptions such as kyub) has some form of reliable recovery, but if victini is to last long (especially late-game) it needs either defog and [healing]wish support, or it just needs to not come in at all until late-game, presuming it is scarf.

If it is not scarf, it has 3 other usable sets in cb, sub pup, and e belt with glaciate. CB is admittedly a monster, being able to 2hko 90% of the meta, but after that it is once again forced to switch. And while it can put in work against a lot of common pokemon, it rarely finds the opportunity to do so, with its speed tier. In order to be a relevant and acknowledged threat in the current meta, a pokemon needs something to stand out from the large clump of over-powered megas, and victini is kind of outclassed as a very potent wall-breaker by zard-y. They both hit extremely hard, but charizard has reliable recovery, and his most powerful attack has no crippling draw-back (aside from accuracy).

I think victini is just fine where it is in B rank.

 

[Flamer]

Also another thing to add into this is that I think we should demote Magnezone to B+. Its not needed anymore and even then most of the things it traps adapted to it. Having better and stronger and faster implications (Raikou, MMan, etc.) this guy isnt needed. Still p good.

Do you even know what implications means lol

 

[pika pal]

Also another thing to add into this is that I think we should demote Magnezone to B+. Its not needed anymore and even then most of the things it traps adapted to it. Having better and stronger and faster implications (Raikou, MMan, etc.) this guy isnt needed. Still p good.

The thing is, those trapping targets "adapting" to it (Skarmory, Ferrothorn, bulky SD Scizor, even Klefki) would indicate that Magnezone is having an impact on the Meta. Ferrothorn and Skarmory really miss their leftovers in their role as a wall, and boosting Scizor sets either forgo recovery, or get trapped and need to boost since SD sets won't carry U-Turn to escape. I personally feel like Magnezone's viability is proportional to the viability of the things it deals with (and I doubt seeing Ferrothorn or, to a lesser extent, Scizor dropping lower than A- MAYBE) and the things that really want those targets removed (M-Pinsir, M-Altaria, M-Diancie, M-Gyarados). Magnezone provides invaluable support for a lot of important threats, whether it's directly eliminating them or forcing them to adapt to it (Shed Shell or changing a move) at the expense of other things they stop.

 

[Albacore]

trc I'd like to know why Mega Slowbro rose since there was barely any discussion on it. Also I'm not sure what kept Magneton in B- given that it lost its main niche?


Anyway I agree that it's about time Keldeo went back in S rank. Some may argue that it lost a niche in being one of the best Greninja checks, but now that it isn't forced to run Scarf, it can more freely run Sub CM and Specs, so Greninja's banning made it better if anything. It's very comparable to Landorus-T in the sense that although it is stopped by a good number of Pokemon, the combined offensive and defensive utility it provides is incredible and it is extremely easy to just slap on a team. Being checked by a lot of things doesn't prevent you from being S rank, as long as what you bring to the team can almost always justify being weaker to the things that check it, and for Keldeo I think that's definitely the case, especially given its ability to wear down or lure its counters (for example, HP Bug is a very viable option atm for taking care of Celebi and Slowbro at once) which means most teams have to carry multiple good checks in order to be truly safe against it. A team running Latios lacking Roost and Chesnaught is still probably weak to Keldeo, since it can almost always come in enough time to end up burning both of them, maybe even hitting them with Icy Wind if it carries it. And Keldeo is often the only thing stopping teams from being 6-0'd by Bisharp and MGyara, and is able to put in work against multiple playstyles (unless it's Scarfed in which case it's not doing much of anything vs Stall) while providing most of the roles of a bulky water but with added offensive presence.

But what makes Keldeo so good is the incredibly synergy it has with a lot of really good Pokemon. Mega Metagross mainly, we all know how common and effective MMeta+Keldeo cores are atm. But also Heatran, Latios, Celebi, Talonflame, Bisharp... So many common Pokemon pair up really well with it that you can pretty much put it on a team and almost guarantee it'll inherently fit there. Overall, Keldeo is probably the Pokemon I've used the most in ORAS, more than Latios, more than Heatran, far more than even Landorus-T, and there's a good reason for that. Very easy to use, very easy to fit on teams, comes at almost no risk at all, and almost always puts in works even if the opponent has multiple checks.


Mega Lopunny is a borderline case for me. It's not on par with the 2 other megas of S rank, however it is better than anything currently residing in A+. Someone highlighted it as the best mega for HO, while MMeta was best for bulky offense and Sableye for stall, but the thing is, MMeta is kind of the best HO mega too, simply because it provides so much more defensively. However MLopunny still puts in a huge amount of work against a lot of teams, especially the PuP sets which are imo the best sets atm. Even some bulkier teams just need a few things weakened before completely falling to a +1 MLopunny. Whether we put it in S or A+ ultimately depends on how strongly we weigh the opportunity cost of not running MMetagross or MSableye.


Also would like to see more discussion on Tentacruel possibly rising to B+, personally I find it to be a step above most B ranks, particularly Mandibuzz, its closest comparison in that specific. I just find it a lot easier to justify using and more useful too.

(also does Meinshao still have a niche? Seems outclassed by MLopunny now)

 

[You...You...]

trc I'd like to know why Mega Slowbro rose since there was barely any discussion on it. Also I'm not sure what kept Magneton in B- given that it lost its main niche?


Idk but there was discussion about putting it up to A+ ages ago with basically no one arguing about it so I guess the council just came to a decision very recently?


Anyway I agree that it's about time Keldeo went back in S rank. Some may argue that it lost a niche in being one of the best Greninja checks, but now that it isn't forced to run Scarf, it can more freely run Sub CM and Specs, so Greninja's banning made it better if anything. It's very comparable to Landorus-T in the sense that although it is stopped by a good number of Pokemon, the combined offensive and defensive utility it provides is incredible and it is extremely easy to just slap on a team. Being checked by a lot of things doesn't prevent you from being S rank, as long as what you bring to the team can almost always justify being weaker to the things that check it, and for Keldeo I think that's definitely the case, especially given its ability to wear down or lure its counters (for example, HP Bug is a very viable option atm for taking care of Celebi and Slowbro at once) which means most teams have to carry multiple good checks in order to be truly safe against it. A team running Latios lacking Roost and Chesnaught is still probably weak to Keldeo, since it can almost always come in enough time to end up burning both of them, maybe even hitting them with Icy Wind if it carries it. And Keldeo is often the only thing stopping teams from being 6-0'd by Bisharp and MGyara, and is able to put in work against multiple playstyles (unless it's Scarfed in which case it's not doing much of anything vs Stall) while providing most of the roles of a bulky water but with added offensive presence.


But what makes Keldeo so good is the incredibly synergy it has with a lot of really good Pokemon. Mega Metagross mainly, we all know how common and effective MMeta+Keldeo cores are atm. But also Heatran, Latios, Celebi, Talonflame, Bisharp... So many common Pokemon pair up really well with it that you can pretty much put it on a team and almost guarantee it'll inherently fit there. Overall, Keldeo is probably the Pokemon I've used the most in ORAS, more than Latios, more than Heatran, far more than even Landorus-T, and there's a good reason for that. Very easy to use, very easy to fit on teams, comes at almost no risk at all, and almost always puts in works even if the opponent has multiple checks.

Agreeing with this. Keldeo is excellent in the current meta as well as being quite versatile. I find myself slapping him on my teams quite a lot these days and he always contributes really well.

Mega Lopunny is a borderline case for me. It's not on par with the 2 other megas of S rank, however it is better than anything currently residing in A+. Someone highlighted it as the best mega for HO, while MMeta was best for bulky offense and Sableye for stall, but the thing is, MMeta is kind of the best HO mega too, simply because it provides so much more defensively. However MLopunny still puts in a huge amount of work against a lot of teams, especially the PuP sets which are imo the best sets atm. Even some bulkier teams just need a few things weakened before completely falling to a +1 MLopunny. Whether we put it in S or A+ ultimately depends on how strongly we weigh the opportunity cost of not running MMetagross or MSableye.

I think Mega Lopunny should stay S. While it's clearly not as good as the other two it is far ahead of anything in A+ and, like the other two S Megas is hard to prepare for without removing a pokemon who would be nearly always superior in any given situation barring checking the S rank Mega it loses to.

Also would like to see more discussion on Tentacruel possibly rising to B+, personally I find it to be a step above most B ranks, particularly Mandibuzz, its closest comparison in that specific. I just find it a lot easier to justify using and more useful too.

I think this is more of a catalyst for Mandibuzz to move down rather than Tentacruel move up. Tenta really hasn't gained anything from the ninja ban, quite the contrary (serperior), it is now lost the advantage of being a decent check to Greninja. I'm not saying it should move down, though Mandibuzz should, but nothing has really changed that would cause it to rise a rank.

(also does Meinshao still have a niche? Seems outclassed by MLopunny now)

Mienshao isn't directly outclassed by Mega Lopunny, especially since it's most viable set in OU is the scarf set which plays quite differently from Mega Lop. It also has a nuking reckless band set which also sets it apart though you are right in saying that the LO set has lost any reason for it to be used at all, except for a "Mega Lopunny" that doesn't use up the mega slot. That being said I think that Mienshao should move down, partly because one of its sets lost its viability altogether and partly because 105 is not as good a speed tier as it once was.

Replies in Bold

 

[pika pal]

Mega Lopunny is a borderline case for me. It's not on par with the 2 other megas of S rank, however it is better than anything currently residing in A+. Someone highlighted it as the best mega for HO, while MMeta was best for bulky offense and Sableye for stall, but the thing is, MMeta is kind of the best HO mega too, simply because it provides so much more defensively. However MLopunny still puts in a huge amount of work against a lot of teams, especially the PuP sets which are imo the best sets atm. Even some bulkier teams just need a few things weakened before completely falling to a +1 MLopunny. Whether we put it in S or A+ ultimately depends on how strongly we weigh the opportunity cost of not running MMetagross or MSableye.

If I can weigh in with an amateur opinion on the Megas, I do think we probably shouldn't weigh the opportunity cost in regards to MSableye, since Lopunny is obviously not a Stall mon.

As for comparison to MMetagross, I think what needs to be considered is what one thinks of for HO at least. When I think Hyper Offense, I think of a team where survivability is "hit them before they hit me. While Metagross is by no means slow, Lopunny's speed sits at a tier nearly uncontested by unboosted mons outside of 5 Megas, only 2 of whom (Aerodactyl and Manectric) are usually safe to potentially switch in. Metagross hits harder thanks to Tough Claws, but I tend to notice slight coverage issues with the sets I've seen run. The thing that makes Lopunny such a unique Pokemon is that it has 2 customizable moveslots, so it can almost completely change up its checks and counters without necessarily compromising how it matches with the things it's usually wanted for in the first place. In a sense, it's a bit like Greninja, who essentially carried 2 moves every time (Ice beam + Gunk Shot), and then chose what else he fucked with in the last 2 slots. The reason Lopunny is worth S Rank (maybe shakily, but still S) is because it's very adaptable: sets like Sub-PuP/BP can be used to help if the team isn't the best at breaking bulkier Stall teams or Healing Wish means if Lopunny finishes its job or won't be your cleaner (such as one wall eliminated rather than most of the team weakened), it still contributes to HO by letting them reuse the sweeper.

Lopunny is a Pokemon capable of adapting to the needs of a team, as well as the trends of the Metagame very well. While I would understand if people think it more a high A+, I elect keep Mega Lopunny in S-Rank.

 

[Costi]

Hello everyone

Just a few considerations about 2 pokemon mentioned by albacore.

I think that Mienshao is not completely outclassed by M-lopunny. It is a C rank mon so frail and not too fast but with the utility in u-turn and regenerator. I think it fits the C rank definition and doesn't deserve to drop. These 2 traits, imho, justify its niche.

Speaking about the Tenta-boy i don't truly think it need neither to raise nor to drop. Yes, was a nice anti greninja mon but the ban of the frog didn't decrease its viability at all. Greninja, with the access to gunk shot, darkened a lot fairy types such as Clefable and Azumarill. With Greninja gone, fairy is gettin more popularity too and Tentacruel can continue to do its job wonderfully. The huge usage of M-Sableye on stall makes tentacruel a big partner of it. Everyone now is preparing a team having in mind the need to deal with Msableye and people find in fairies the answer to it (clefable, Mgarde, sylveon), so, with this is mind, i can say that tenta is a very good asset for Msab users. The utility in rapid spin is cool too lol.

I definetly think B+ is fine for it and surely doesn't have to drop, at most it can raise.

P.s sorry for some english mistakes lol i'm kinda bad and i'm trying to improve. Have a good day guys!

 

[AM]

Albacore Mega Slowbro went back to A+ because its Double Dance set is just brutal. It is so bulky and as win-con if you don't have a concrete answer to it you're pretty much getting beat by it. Mega Slowbro's performance in SPL is where this rise came from. So this has nothing do with any other set besides what people are considering its best one as a set up sweeper.

I have no real opinion on Tentacruel as of now I'm sort of iffy on it because it's borderline better than most of B and in some cases better than the B+ stuff. It's not exactly above the B rank stuff exactly because I can ask a HO player what they think is more of a threat and they'll more than likely tell me it's Conkeldurr, so it's not really cut and dry. I think this has to do with some of the B dropping or taking a quick look at B+. For example Mandibuzz maintained its position as an M-Metagross check but to be perfectly honest it's a really mediocre one because after rocks you're already in the danger zone of not having a chance against M-Metagross and with that said you need to pack a good amount of Defense against it which hinders its utility against special attackers and even Rocky Helmet to be an actual threat towards it. In theory it sounds like a fantastic check which in some cases it does. Then you factor in players that aren't ass, Meteor Mash's attack raise which inevitably happens, rocks damage, and the support from M-Metagross that it has to dismantle stuff like Mandibuzz really easy like Keldeo and Manaphy. Mandibuzz does have its thing going for it to be a pretty decent Defogger that provides a buffer for physical threats mostly but I don't think it's enough to really warrant its B rank position right now.

Also the idea that M-Lopunny is the face of HO is not exactly true from what I can tell. I see more M-Metagross on HO than I would M-Lopunny due to the nature of everything it provides, solid defensive typing, strong immediate power, coverage options, etc. So it's no so much about a high level of opportunity cost but I feel comes back to the fact why wouldn't you use M-Metagross on offense? The only answer I can think of is to go outside of the norm or just use different stuff that is efficient as well such as Char-X, Char-Y, M-Altaria, etc. I don't think M-Lopunny is exactly S rank material because it's more so annoying than it is really hard to stop. Obviously you'll have stuff better than others in a certain sub-rank but I don't think this should be used as the argument all the time that it should be bumped up a rank. This sort of logic matters when as a whole amongst the entire subrank it's a bit more obvious that it's not on par or not as efficient as the sub-rank it's occupying. If it's only a couple of things like maybe 2 or 3 mons then you really need to establish why it's effective or less effective enough to warrant a drop or raise.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

Do you even know what implications means lol

Sorry I said the wrong word

Please put a gun to my head and shoot me.

What I meant was replacements. Raikou replaces him as a semi bulky Electric SpAttacker. MMan Replaces him as an overall faster and stronger version of him, basically almost outclassing him.

If you proceed to jab on my word choice and not bring an opinion to matter I suggest you dont post at all, just like i did for over 2 months.

Edginess aside, I do agree that MLop has some answers on every play style. But, I do think it can adapt to those weaknesses. For Example, lets say rocks are on the field and Latias comes out. With its sub Encore Set it can set up on it while it defogs. Still very, very specific play. I still think its getting a little too much counters though. Basically any bulky Psychic/Fairy mono type checks/counters it in a way.

The reason i think Mag should go down as i didnt elaborate before because i was tired (obviously i looked like a dumbass) is because he is needed less and less and less. Skarmory is more than easy to take out in this meta, Ferrothorn doesnt even get OHKO'ed by HP Fire on the Scarf set, and Scizor is one of the few notable things it can take out, and that is saying that it doesnt have Superpower cause Mag doesnt even OHKO most Scizor variants. Now that the meta is about fast sweepers, you would presume he should run scarf, right? No. He is literally so weak that his 4x stabs cant even OHKO some uninvested steels. SpecsZone cant even OHKO Ferro with a decent amount of bulk.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Ferrothorn: 300-356 (85.2 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

1/8 chance to OHKO isnt reliable. Also, the biggest reason to me is that if it runs its Specs set it is demolished by most HO teams, and has a decent amount of counters (Other Mags, Heatran, MegaZard X, Most Dragons, etc.) and if it runs its Scarf set it literally cant do much at all. It really only reliably takes out like 4 threats in the meta, and honestly that isnt enough for a single pokemon. B+ imo.

Also, Im not saying this guy is bad, in fact i think its a bit lower than MSharpedo status. I cant see it in A- rn.

Also, if the meta is adapting to a pokemon that means it gets worse in the meta...

 

[astroboy]

Sorry I said the wrong word

Please put a gun to my head and shoot me.

What I meant was replacements. Raikou replaces him as a semi bulky Electric SpAttacker. MMan Replaces him as an overall faster and stronger version of him, basically almost outclassing him.

If you proceed to jab on my word choice and not bring an opinion to matter I suggest you dont post at all, just like i did for over 2 months.

Edginess aside, I do agree that MLop has some answers on every play style. But, I do think it can adapt to those weaknesses. For Example, lets say rocks are on the field and Latias comes out. With its sub Encore Set it can set up on it while it defogs. Still very, very specific play. I still think its getting a little too much counters though. Basically any bulky Psychic/Fairy mono type checks/counters it in a way.

The reason i think Mag should go down as i didnt elaborate before because i was tired (obviously i looked like a dumbass) is because he is needed less and less and less. Skarmory is more than easy to take out in this meta, Ferrothorn doesnt even get OHKO'ed by HP Fire on the Scarf set, and Scizor is one of the few notable things it can take out, and that is saying that it doesnt have Superpower cause Mag doesnt even OHKO most Scizor variants. Now that the meta is about fast sweepers, you would presume he should run scarf, right? No. He is literally so weak that his 4x stabs cant even OHKO some uninvested steels. SpecsZone cant even OHKO Ferro with a decent amount of bulk.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Ferrothorn: 300-356 (85.2 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

1/8 chance to OHKO isnt reliable. Also, the biggest reason to me is that if it runs its Specs set it is demolished by most HO teams, and has a decent amount of counters (Other Mags, Heatran, MegaZard X, Most Dragons, etc.) and if it runs its Scarf set it literally cant do much at all. It really only reliably takes out like 4 threats in the meta, and honestly that isnt enough for a single pokemon. B+ imo.

Also, Im not saying this guy is bad, in fact i think its a bit lower than MSharpedo status. I cant see it in A- rn.

Also, if the meta is adapting to a pokemon that means it gets worse in the meta...

the edge lmao. anyways, nitpicking again, but the standard ferro set is relaxed nature, not sassy. im on mobile so i cant calc, but im pretty sure it kills standard ferro with pretty good frequency. mag is fine where it is. the support in offers in "rebliably taking out like four things" is valued, as those four things stop things mag is paired with, like bee or mega pinsir.
i think youre using mag as a purely offensive mon, which, youre right, its not good at. the main reason mag is used as a trapper. as a support mon.

something to take things outta the way so other mons can shine (ie wob goth or duggy) and thats why mag is so high up.

 

[Kurona]

the edge lmao.

Hide

Anyways, I'm thinking of nomming Espeon for C- or perhaps even D. I don't know why it's still in C rank tbh because it's really not on par with anything on there. Let's ignore the fact that it's CM Offensive sets and role as a Magic Bouncer are outclassed because that's clear as day and get to the real reason it's ranked -- it's role on BP teams.
The general idea is to set-up with something, BP into it and use it's unique traits of STAB Stored Power and inability to be phazed out to get off a sweep. And that's it. It's an incredibly niche role only suitable for one type of team that you have other options for and is not as consistent as other playstyles like weather and TR can be. Why is this deserving of C rank? It's also hurt further in ORAS by the arrival of Mega Sableye, who either forces it to run Dazzling Gleam over HP Fighting or else it's done for; and with that it's completely walled by steel-types hampering it's ability to sweep even further. It's also extremely weak to the common Knock Offs and Bisharp Sucker Punchers in the tier, and in general I don't find it as versatile or as easy to fit into teams as other 'mon in C like Entei, Mienshao, Porygon2 and Mega Absol, which is saying quite a lot. (Also Infernape but tbh that should probably move up; more on that a little later but I'm a tad undecided.)
It fits in way more with the Pokémon in C- who have a pretty specific role and are harder to find a place on teams for. Heck, I wouldn't mind dropping it to D considering the requirements for that:-

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

That said, it's niche is very obvious and as long as Baton Pass is viable, it should stay ranked. However, Baton Pass has declined as a viable playstyle, Mega Sableye makes Espeon's job so much harder, it's outclassed at everything except BP by even Alakazam, move it down to C- or D.

 

[Wargreymon]

Sorry I said the wrong word

Please put a gun to my head and shoot me.

What I meant was replacements. Raikou replaces him as a semi bulky Electric SpAttacker. MMan Replaces him as an overall faster and stronger version of him, basically almost outclassing him.

If you proceed to jab on my word choice and not bring an opinion to matter I suggest you dont post at all, just like i did for over 2 months.

Edginess aside, I do agree that MLop has some answers on every play style. But, I do think it can adapt to those weaknesses. For Example, lets say rocks are on the field and Latias comes out. With its sub Encore Set it can set up on it while it defogs. Still very, very specific play. I still think its getting a little too much counters though. Basically any bulky Psychic/Fairy mono type checks/counters it in a way.

The reason i think Mag should go down as i didnt elaborate before because i was tired (obviously i looked like a dumbass) is because he is needed less and less and less. Skarmory is more than easy to take out in this meta, Ferrothorn doesnt even get OHKO'ed by HP Fire on the Scarf set, and Scizor is one of the few notable things it can take out, and that is saying that it doesnt have Superpower cause Mag doesnt even OHKO most Scizor variants. Now that the meta is about fast sweepers, you would presume he should run scarf, right? No. He is literally so weak that his 4x stabs cant even OHKO some uninvested steels. SpecsZone cant even OHKO Ferro with a decent amount of bulk.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Ferrothorn: 300-356 (85.2 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

1/8 chance to OHKO isnt reliable. Also, the biggest reason to me is that if it runs its Specs set it is demolished by most HO teams, and has a decent amount of counters (Other Mags, Heatran, MegaZard X, Most Dragons, etc.) and if it runs its Scarf set it literally cant do much at all. It really only reliably takes out like 4 threats in the meta, and honestly that isnt enough for a single pokemon. B+ imo.

Also, Im not saying this guy is bad, in fact i think its a bit lower than MSharpedo status. I cant see it in A- rn.

Also, if the meta is adapting to a pokemon that means it gets worse in the meta...

You completely misused a word and he called you out on it. It's not as if he was insulting you, no need to be so hostile and suggest that he don't post here.
Anyway, Manectric and Raikou don't outclass Magnezone, because for the most part they play completely different roles from it. Magnezone is a trapper first and foremost. Even Raikou and Manectric have different roles from each other.
I don't see how "Ferrothorn doesn't even get OHKO'ed by HP Fire on the Scarf set" is an argument, or even "Skarmory is more easy to take out in this meta" for the matter. Ferrothorn is extremely bulky regardless of its 4x weakness to fire, and what is Ferrothorn doing back anyway besides leech seeding and hoping it can get more than one protect in a row? It doesn't matter if you don't OHKO, the point is that you trap it and KO it to allow room for some of your other pokemon to breathe. This is why Magnezone pairs well with a lot of sweepers. Raikou can't touch Ferrothorn and Manectric can't trap it. As for skarmory, can you elaborate on what you mean by that comment? I don't understand how it's any easier to take out in this meta. Even so, having the ability to trap it like a fly and KO it without it doing jack shit to you is pretty valuable. Again, it provides room for your own physical attackers to have some fun. As for Scizor, HP Fire does a large amount to mega bulky variants meaning it has a tougher time roosting later on, and it basically OHKO's every other variant after rocks.

Mag has plenty of viability outside of just trapping though. It 4x resists brave bird meaning it can switch into jolly SD versions of Talonflame and outspeed them the next turn, it can beat Mega Slowbro 1v1 even if it's at +1, and it provides some volt turn support which is always nice. Of course Manectric and Raikou do this too to an extent, but I mean Magnezone provides this kind of team support on top of trapping very annoying pokemon.

I'm honestly neutral about Magnezone dropping or staying, but most of what you said isn't really applicable to why it maybe should go down a rank in my opinion.

 

[Albacore]

Forgot to mention this in my previous post so I'll just put it here : I support Volcarona for B rank.

I was originally sceptical about it but after trying it out I was very impressed by it, it far surpassed my expectations. More specifically, I've been trying Volcarona+Scarftar+Tentacruel which is stolen inspired from the YZard+TTar+Tenta core a few people have been running recently, and it works really well.
Although it does require a good amount of support, it actually doesn't need that many things removed to sweep, the only really common things that stop it are Talonflame (who isn't too hard to wear down), Heatran or Latis depending on whether you're running HP Ground or Bug Buzz as your final move (and both of these Pokemon can be trapped) and Scarf Landorus-T if you're running Modest (which isn't hard to wear down either). And if you do give it that support, you'll find that it can set up and sweep really consistently, and because nobody really prepares for it, it's really good as just pulling off victories out of nowhere and just winning after only a few turns: a great example of this is Sinclair vs Tesung which is actually pretty representative of what Volcarona is capable of against a lot of teams. So yeah, support Volcarona moving up, people need to be more aware of how much of a threat this thing can actually be.