Metagame np: Stage 3 - 9(9) Problems

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The Goomy

Whitest Mexican Alive
I'm sorry but how? After a lot of prior damage and layer of spikes maybe.
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 133-156 (37.5 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Archeops Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 244 SpD Mega Steelix: 124-148 (35 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This post was so incredibly biased I didn't actually know if you were serious.

Adamant Band is currently the best Sneasel set, you can still outspeed base 100s

(AKA Typhlosion) 252+ Atk Choice Band Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Typhlosion: 256-303 (86.1 - 102%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

which is the fastest thing you should be concerned about with a hit and run mon like Sneasel (Pyroar and Liepard can be checked in different ways)

252+ Atk Choice Band Sneasel Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 166-196 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

OR: If you're running the LO SD Set

252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 133-156 (37.5 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 55-64 (15.5 - 18%) -- possible 6HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 263-309 (74.2 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Oh man. I don't even have to predict it coming in the first time. I can just knock. And then it's in range of a +2 Low Kick (since we're saying it's switched in on rocks both times)
Or if you don't have rocks, you just Low Kick it twice (first predict, then after an SD). It's very easy to get an SD up in this tier considering all the bulky Psychics that Steelix actually helps to keep in check.

Also, you cannot just pick and choose what set you want the opposing M-Lix to have. The most used set from usage is 248HP/248Atk/12Spe
0 SpA Archeops Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Steelix: 158-186 (44.7 - 52.6%) -- 53.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I can get the 6% damage off on the Steelix I need to guarentee a 2HKO
 
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Well as stated like you said i would like to add
252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (mega)Steelix: 180-214 (50.8 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO..just useless info but alright
but also the pokes i would list being overcentralized are typlosion,mega steelix because of there amazing ability to do raw damage or just ruin SOMETHING with a free switch what you will easly get when you beat lose a poke.
typlosion unlike steelix can easly be played around with priority/SR set up but again the only poke you should normaly use for teambuild is hariyama who because of over centralizing needs to run thick fat making him weak to burn and for a poke that has guts that's just redicules.
 

Ares

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Adamant Band is currently the best Sneasel set, you can still outspeed base 100s
Ummm, Adamant Band is not the best Sneasel set lol. Actually I think that set is probably the worst one seeing as one of the best things about Sneasel is its ability to boost its attacking stat with SD coupled with its amazing speed and access to priority. Knock Off already hits hard enough without band, but the band requires you to predict a ton when it comes to using Sneasel, meaning if you predict wrong and they switch into something that resists Low Kick you are already in a bad position and having to switch in and out on hazards multiple times is not ideal. I think Sneasel is much better than say Pawniard at being able to to take Mega Steelix with Low Kick, but saying Band is the best set is portraying things in an unclear light to further your argument.

Also rhydonphilip specs archeops isn't good lol. Edit: I thought you said Archeops cause I was reading the above post at the same time, my bad :P
 
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Disjunction

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Ninetales, Rhydon, Seismitoad, Mantine, AV Magmortar, Hariyama, Mega Camerupt, AV Kabutops, Probopass, Heatmor, Poliwrath
I'll give you Ninetales, Mantine, AV Mag, and Hariyama because they are very notable Typh answers and are good in the meta right now.
However, I would say that you have some very shaky answers otherwise. Part of the reason typh is so threatening isn't that it can sweep or anything, but its ability to force the opponent into taking incredible amounts of damage with a very limited amount of switch ins.
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 292-348 (70.5 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 216 HP / 0 SpD Seismitoad: 205-242 (50.6 - 59.7%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Camerupt: 156-183 (45.3 - 53.1%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed after rocks but showing you potentially don't even need rocks. A case can be made for the spdef set but, this coming from the biggest fan of the set, it's extremely limited and even a little passive in this meta).
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 175-207 (54 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 252-298 (65.6 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
tbh I don't know why you would run AV Kabu. If you wanted something that dies to HP Grass and can't kill with Aqua Jet, you're better off using Adamant LOrb Kabu
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kabutops: 312-368 (119.5 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Typhlosion: 211-250 (71 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Although, I suppose I'm guilty of not knowing the bulk investment for Assvest Kabutops.

Also, if you're going to mention random Flash Fire mons, at least mention good ones like Flareon not Heatmor.

I understand that a lot of these calcs require prediction because you'll be choice locked and all (and I'm sure you listed most of them as checks to Typh) but my main concern with typh isn't its amount of checks, but its amount of reliable switch ins. It's not like Sawk where you have an entire type that is immune to your primary STAB, several mons like Granbull, Togetic, and Vileplume who are relatively safe switch ins, or even a relatively slow speed stat. This is a mon that has one of the most terrifying STABs in the game, the coverage to back it up, and one of the best speed tiers in NU.

EDIT: btw, I'm not pro-ban Typh or anything, I'm pro-suspect Typh. I'm sure it may seem I come across as wanting it banned but I'm trying to present objective arguments to why it is an issue. I'd like to see what team building is like with Typh out of the picture and if the NU meta flourishes any from it.
 
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The Goomy

Whitest Mexican Alive
I'll give you Ninetales, Mantine, AV Mag, and Hariyama because they are very notable Typh answers and are good in the meta right now.
However, I would say that you have some very shaky answers otherwise. Part of the reason typh is so threatening isn't that it can sweep or anything, but its ability to force the opponent into taking incredible amounts of damage with a very limited amount of switch ins.
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 292-348 (70.5 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 216 HP / 0 SpD Seismitoad: 205-242 (50.6 - 59.7%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Camerupt: 156-183 (45.3 - 53.1%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed after rocks but showing you potentially don't even need rocks. A case can be made for the spdef set but, this coming from the biggest fan of the set, it's extremely limited and even a little passive in this meta).
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Probopass: 175-207 (54 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 252-298 (65.6 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
tbh I don't know why you would run AV Kabu. If you wanted something that dies to HP Grass and can't kill with Aqua Jet, you're better off using Adamant LOrb Kabu
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Kabutops: 312-368 (119.5 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Typhlosion: 211-250 (71 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Although, I suppose I'm guilty of not knowing the bulk investment for Assvest Kabutops.

Also, if you're going to mention random Flash Fire mons, at least mention good ones like Flareon not Heatmor.

I understand that a lot of these calcs require prediction because you'll be choice locked and all and I'm sure you listed most of them as checks to Typh but my main concern with typh isn't its amount of checks, but its amount of reliable switch ins. It's not like Sawk where you have an entire type that is immune to your primary STAB, several mons like Granbull, Togetic, and Vileplume who are relatively safe switch ins, or even a relatively slow speed stat. This is a mon that has one of the most terrifying STABs in the game, the coverage to back it up, and one of the best speed tiers in NU.

EDIT: btw, I'm not pro-ban Typh or anything, I'm pro-suspect Typh. I'm sure it may seem I come across as wanting it banned but I'm trying to present objective arguments to why it is an issue. I'd like to see what team building is like with Typh out of the picture and if the NU meta flourishes any from it.
Ah yes. I'm going to predict correctly every time. Also. Heatmor is good, which you would know if you have used it before. Fire Blast, Giga Drain, HP Water is fantastic coverage in this tier. It even gets sucker punch for prio, or Focus Blast for Audino, Probo etc

I don't see how having to prepare for a mon and having to predict which move it's going to choice lock itself into makes it suspect worthy.
 

Disjunction

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Ah yes. I'm going to predict correctly every time. Also. Heatmor is good, which you would know if you have used it before. Fire Blast, Giga Drain, HP Water is fantastic coverage in this tier. It even gets sucker punch for prio, or Focus Blast for Audino, Probo etc

I don't see how having to prepare for a mon and having to predict which move it's going to choice lock itself into makes it suspect worthy.
I'm not saying you have to predict perfectly every time (which btw you've used as an argument for Steelix v. Sneasel
Or if you don't have rocks, you just Low Kick it twice (first predict, then after an SD). It's very easy to get an SD up in this tier considering all the bulky Psychics that Steelix actually helps to keep in check.
I'm saying in practice, these mons cannot reliably switch into Typh every time. My argument was that there are no reliable Typh switch ins in the tier barring Mantine, Ninetales, and Hariyama which limits team building. Should you switch in ANY of these mons to a stray coverage move, you're shit out of luck because there goes your Typh check. If you don't want to switch them in, fearing a coverage move, your opponent has just as much liberty to spam Eruption. While, yes, you or your opponent has the liberty of making the correct prediction in EVERY scenario, the Typh user is almost always at an advantage due to the depressingly low count of switch ins.

Unless, of course, you're implying you're predicting every move the typh user makes correctly?

I won't make any arguments on Heatmor because, like you said, I haven't used it.
 

Disjunction

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I legit talked about how if you're the SD Set you never have to actually predict it coming in with Low Kick. -_-
Then I'm sorry about the confusion. However, it doesn't affect my argument any as my original argument had nothing to do with predicting perfectly, as outlined by my last post.

I'd also like to make mention that if we were to only pick one Pokemon for an up-coming suspect, my vote would still be for Mega Steelix. Similar to Typh, it is a very difficult Pokemon to switch into. However, very different from Typh, it is a difficult Pokemon to revenge kill. While Typhlosion can be beaten by priority, a number of mons that can tank an Eruption from full, etc, M-lix can only be revenged by powerful wall breakers that can hit it super effectively or a random assortment of set up sweepers. It is not only a terrible threat to prepare for on the offensive spectrum, but also on the defensive spectrum and probably more deserving of a test than Typh. I just wanted to present arguments for another Pokemon that maybe nobody else has thought of and provide food for thought for the future.
 

ryan

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Kanga: Low Kick
Pawniard: Was never that good in the first place
Sneasel: 2hkos with Low Kick
Liepard: U-turn out on it coming in
Scyther: U-turn Out on it coming in
Archeops: Heat Wave 2hkos
Swellow: U-turn out on it coming in

I don't see why people believe having to prepare your movesets for a top mon make that mon broken.

What defines a "good" Pokemon?

I believe (and I would like to believe most people would agree) that a definition of a good Pokemon is:

"A Pokemon that can perform well in the tier around it. It has the ability to either hit top threats hard, wall top threats, or a combination thereof."

So...since a Pokemon was "good" last gen, and it is not good now (because there are new threats in the meta) This means that M-Lix is broken?

Math will tell you that no matter how many Pokemon you ban from a tier, there will always be TOP MONS.
The thing that makes Pokemon TOP MONS is the environment around it (NU).

So if Mega-Lix goes, there will be an entirely new meta (much like when Aegi left OU).
But that meta will still be centralized around NEW TOP THREATS revolving around what's in the tier.

There will be a new meta centralized around new top threats just because we felt like it.
It's impossible to created an un-centralized metagame...players adapt, the Pokemon in the meta will always have top mons because they perform well relative to their peers.


Basically, in conclusion, this is why I think an overcentralization argument is a bad argument to suspect/ban something:

- If it isn't broken it doesn't need to be banned (Heatran on like 80% of DPP teams at one point iirc)
- The meta will simply adapt and there will be new top threats, and potentially broken ones.
- It's impossible to "un-centralize a meta"

This is why the tiering system is set up the way it is. As players we get to choose how tiers get populated (via usage) from the ENTIRE POPULATION (OU).
Then we do the new population (UU) and the new population (RU) and the new population (NU) and the new population (PU) to determine what works within those environments.

Getting rid of a mon simply because you don't like the fact that it's in a tier (and can help to shape that environment) is trash. If you don't like the tier as it is (unless you believe something is BROKEN, not overcentralizing), go play a different tier, that's why we have them.
Low Kick is a bad move outside of hitting Mega Steelix. Yes, you can adapt to it on Kangaskhan and Sneasel and have a chance to 3HKO it, but then your Pokemon is worse against almost the entire rest of the metagame. Don't see how Sneasel 2HKOs it either when Life Orb Low Kick doesn't even do it, let alone Eviolite. Pawniard was good, but now that Mega Steelix is in the metagame, it's terrible. Liepard and Swellow can U-turn on it, but the problem is that they're forced to U-turn on it. And then what are they doing the entire battle? About 4% to a Steelix every time they come in! Archeops can run Heat Wave, yes. I'll give you that one, though bulky sets are considerably worse now. And Scyther can U-turn if you're running Band or Scarf, the latter of which is bad anyways, and pretty much can't run SD anymore. So yes, you can adapt your Scyther to run one set instead of a handful and your Archeops to run a different move.

Mega Steelix also makes Mega Audino and Mega Camerupt significantly worse just by existing. There's almost no reason to use the other two when you can just use Mega Steelix. In fact, there's almost no reason not to use Mega Steelix on every team.

I strongly disagree with the rest of your argument about centralization being unavoidable. You're right that there will always be top Pokemon in every metagame. But top Pokemon don't have to warp the tier around themselves. Sure, you have to use a couple checks to Feraligatr and Typhlosion while teambuilding or risk outright losing to them, but it's not that difficult to carry checks to these Pokemon. (I believe an argument could be made about Typhlosion, but for the sake of this argument, I'm not going into it.) They influence teambuilding, but they don't make any Pokemon unviable simply by existing. Even Pyroar still saw plenty of usage in Typhlosion's prime, even though it was weaker, because Pyroar had its own niches to separate itself. When is the last time you saw Klinklang used successfully in NU? It is heavily outclassed as a Steel-type by Steelix, which can check far more of the metagame, offers Stealth Rock support, and hits incredibly harder, not to mention that Steelix also walls it to hell and back no matter what it runs. Top Pokemon don't have to be overcentralizing, and NU players shouldn't have to pack up and start playing another tier because one Pokemon ruins the metagame.

If there are more broken Pokemon after Steelix is banned, then we should suspect them too! Broken Pokemon keeping other potentially broken Pokemon in check shouldn't stick around for that reason. And you're comparing Mega Steelix to another broken Pokemon, Aegislash in OU, that kept top threats in check before it was banned. Aegislash was banned despite the way its departure completely flipped the OU metagame, and Mega Steelix should follow suit.

I understand why people think Mega Steelix isn't broken. To a lot of people, Mega Steelix isn't conventionally broken. It doesn't easily sweep teams. It doesn't wallbreak the entire tier. It's simply too good at what it does compared to the rest of NU, and there's almost no reason not to use it on every team, which makes it clearly broken to me and a lot of other people.
 

PISTOLERO

I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
Hello, most of you may not know me but hopefully in the future you will :). I live in the Ubers subforums of Smogon and rarely venture out into other tiers, but recently I have begun to get very bored of the Ubers tier, mainly due to the fact that it is comprised of the same ~25 pokemon with very little variation, and that Primal Groudon is on about 80% of teams because there is basically no reason not to use it. I have felt this way for quite a while and decided that picking up another tier would be a good idea. I am not really fond of OU, UU or RU for various different reasons and was told by my friend Tom Bus that NU was a lot of fun, and looking at the way that the tier is "bottomless" in that there are many different options and that you can get caught by something innovative, whereas innovation does not really work at all in Ubers. I've spent the past couple of hours watching the SPL games of NU so far, reading through the subforums etc and I can see a recurring theme that Mega Steelix is very overcentralizing, and pretty much has no opportunity cost in that you probably should use it on your NU teams.

Like Hollywood said, players pack up and go play another tier because of one Pokemon ruining said tier, and that is kindof what made me come here to NU. It seems fantastic how inventive things such as Assault Vest Magmortar can be effectively used in NU, and things like Eviolite Sneasel seem to be a lot of fun too. I will start my NU laddering adventure and start to play games tomorrow morning, and I hope that Steelix will not be as bad as it is portrayed to be in this thread. While it does not seem to be broken in the traditional sense of the word, in that it can sweep 95% of the tier or wall 95% of it, it sounds very boring to have to play against Mega Steelix every game, and to be pidgeonholed into using it because if you don't you are objectively making your team worse, which is what is making me dislike ORAS Ubers right now. Arguments along the lines of "Steelix is not broken because it keeps XYZ from being overpowered" seem to be kindof stupid in that if Steelix does leave and several other Pokemon rise and become overcentralizing, there is nothing stopping the NU community from banning them too, right?

I apologize for such a meandering post, I am looking forward to learning NU, especially as there seems to be so much more freedom in teambuilding and innovation. Maybe I am wrong and my first impressions are off, and Mega Steelix is just fine, and I'll learn to tolerate it like I have Primal Groudon. Hopefully though, NU will suspect test all the things that are broken and get rid of them so that the tier is balanced.

I also have a question which should be easy to answer. Is Serperior banned in NU now, as I was told that its use is not allowed in SPL, and will Serperior be banned as a whole or just Contrary Serperior? The same question applies to Dragalge and Adaptability, as as far as I understand it neither Dragalge nor Sceptile are the slightest bit broken without their hidden abilities.
 

boltsandbombers

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PISTOLERO To answer your question, Serperior is banned and Adaptability Draglage was voted to stay, but it moved to RU due to usage. Same goes for Mega Sceptile.
Edit: @ below yeah, thats right, my bad.
 
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Yo whats going on here
For some things I would agree that I wish the council was abit more yo lets hurry up this thing is wrecking our tier but at the same time I remember mont saying give it time, learn about the mon, maybe come up with a few checks, and possibly we'll all come out better because of it
If we suspect the 6 pokemon you mentioned, there will just be more that crop up and make the tier once again, a constant plug and play
Typhlosion is a monster no doubt but every single tier has a monster like this, and its not like Typh is completely and utterly unstoppable either
If we ban typh, sure that'll make some mons come out their shells, but not every meta needs to be like that
Even unhealthy mons create balances for the tier, and right now I would say the tier is pretty healthy and fun to play right now
Sure m-lix could probably be suspected in the future but i would prefer we wait and let things flow
Were getting some nice drops in feb, let us see where it takes us, then if you guys still feel that m-lix and typh are super mega op and unhealthy, thats you guys
But I agree about the council thing
 

Disjunction

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Yo whats going on here
For some things I would agree that I wish the council was abit more yo lets hurry up this thing is wrecking our tier but at the same time I remember mont saying give it time, learn about the mon, maybe come up with a few checks, and possibly we'll all come out better because of it
If we suspect the 6 pokemon you mentioned, there will just be more that crop up and make the tier once again, a constant plug and play
Typhlosion is a monster no doubt but every single tier has a monster like this, and its not like Typh is completely and utterly unstoppable either
If we ban typh, sure that'll make some mons come out their shells, but not every meta needs to be like that
Even unhealthy mons create balances for the tier, and right now I would say the tier is pretty healthy and fun to play right now
Sure m-lix could probably be suspected in the future but i would prefer we wait and let things flow
Were getting some nice drops in feb, let us see where it takes us, then if you guys still feel that m-lix and typh are super mega op and unhealthy, thats you guys
But I agree about the council thing
The argument wasn't about banning Typhlosion. The argument was to garner interest in a suspect test for Typhlosion by presenting its ability to force you into specific team building habits. The test is designed to see what the tier is like without the suggested Pokemon in order to determine if a tier without it is healthier or not.

Also, it has always been standard practice when making arguments for the centralization of Pokemon to NOT make the argument of "well, if we ban this, other mons will be broken!" If other mons become broken, they will be suspected and handled as well until an ideal tier is reached. The argument of "let the mon play out and see how it goes" is also silly considering how long we've been handling Typh and it's not like M-lix is exactly a fresh, new face in the tier anymore.

I agree that the drops could potentially have a good effect on the meta in rebalancing M-lix considering we have two potential megas dropping (making, perhaps, the opportunity cost for running M-lix a bit higher) but I do not want this to turn into the Smash Pass suspect discussion we had where it was brushed under the rug and forgotten because we wanted the meta to settle.

Also, yes, perhaps the council can be a little tardy at times, but I think that's very characteristic of a lot of the players we have in the community. If we wanted something up for suspect, it's up to us to garner attention to the council for it. Hell, it took someone who just recently joined the community to even bring up the topic in the first place. Just because we didn't like having to play with Serp for a week doesn't mean we need to throw all the rules out the window and have it immediately shoved out the window. That's just my 2 cents, though.

EDIT: looking back on that it sounded really insulting so I wanted to clarify :x
I'm saying nobody should shift all the blame onto the council because we're all guilty of not promoting a suspect test in the first place. Votes or tests start because a majority wanted them to happen, not because the council wanted them to happen.
 
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Finchinator

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Similarly to Blarajan (who made a detailed post on the previous page), I didn't play much XY NU (~5 games total) and took up ORAS NU recently for testing, and eventually playing in, SPL, so I guess I have a "different" perspective on things to some extent and within this post, I'll give my input on the current state of the metagame and potential lines of action going into the future.

First off, I believe that the NU meta isn't awful, but it has some room for improvement and if we can figure out how to "improve" NU properly, then it will open up the tier and enhance the quality of it, too. This leads right to the key question: what needs to be altered so that the tier can "improve"? (Note the emphasis on improving the tier. This means banning something prematurely can negatively impact the tier and while this would alter the tier, it would not be the ideal change) The answer to this isn't simple and will vary depending on who you ask, but a majority of people's opinions will have some parallels based on what I've observed so far. Personally, I believe the following Pokemon are controversial, meaning that they at least warrant a formal suspect, if not a ban: Mega-Steelix, Typhlosion, and (maybe) Mega-Camerupt (in this order of priority).

Mega-Steelix is all over the place. People thought Druddigon was popular in BW RU and people believe Landorus-T is too common in late XY/early ORAS OU, which may be the case, but Mega-Steelix in ORAS NU takes it a step further than both of these aforementioned pokemon in their respective metagames. To exemplify this, Mega-Lix was seen on 8/10 SPL teams week 2 and is frequently seen among the higher part of the ladder. Seeing as Mega-Lix is getting this substantial usage, there must be a reason to warrant it, and there is: it is just so good that most teams have little-to-no reason not to use it. Stellar defensive typing, unmatched physical bulk - even without defensive investment, solid special bulk, strong offensive presence, and a movepool that is wide enough to grant it all the necessary tools to make it so dominant in NU are all characteristics of Mega-Lix. Looking at it in a conventional "what checks/counters it" sense, Lix does have a fair amount of answers that are viable in the tier (Seismi, Ludi, Poliwrath, Mantine, Vileplume, Pelipper, Tangela, Prinplup, etc.), but that alone isn't enough to say Steelix isn't banworthy/suspect worthy in NU. The fact of the matter is that it's unhealthy for a metagame to have so much emphasis on 1 threat (see: Pistolero's reference to Primal Groudon in Ubers) and while I don't always like using this term as it is commonly misused by many posters in my experience with suspects, Mega-Steelix is (over-)centralizing due to this abundance of usage and it being consistently effective/worth using over alternatives. A byproduct of centralization is the metagame becoming restricted with the exceptions to this being "innovations" that try to manipulate the limited state of the tier, which some may argue is the case with NU right now and this argument has reasonable support behind it.

TL;DR/overall opinion: Mega Steelix is certainly something to look into due to the arguably toxic effect it has on NU and while I'm not 100% sold that it is banworthy, I am getting there and a suspect would certainly be called-for in the near future.

The other Pokemon that I am sold on being controversial, to some extent, is Typhlosion (I'll save Mega Camel for a later date as I'm still on the fence and it is not a priority). Typhlosion, unlike Mega-Steelix, isn't a tank of amazing proportions, but it's a wall-breaker and potent offensive presence in the tier that may not see anywhere near the usage that Steelix sees, but is still a top threat alongside Steelix and some others. To cut to the chase, handling Typhlosion's powerful special attacks is generally the issue - teams are virtually required to run one of a few things, which can increase or decrease in amount depending on what fits into the team and what doesn't, but the point still stands that Typhloision (and the other specially offensive fire types to a lesser extent) can be restrictive and a pain to deal with. This leads straight to to obvious question of: what can deal with Typhlosion? Well, I'd say the notable checks/counters are: Hariyama, Seismitoad (HP grass can be a thing), Mantine, Lanturn, AV Magmortar, flash fire Flareon/Ninetales (eh), and SDef eviolite Zweilous/Munchlax (wary of Specs Focus Blast). So it's not too small a list, but not all of these fit into offensive teams (the up-and-coming Specs Mantine, AV Hariyama, Seismitoad, and AV Magmortar are the only ones that do so and all of these lack recovery). The way to look at this is to figure out if the lack of surefire, practical checks/counters of Typhloision is enough to make it worthy of a ban/suspect or not. I say yes to a potential future suspect and I am on the fence about it being broken (leaning no), but it's in the eye of the beholder as we all play and view the tier differently.

Sorry if this is sort of long and apologies for any typos or errors as I've type this on my phone.
 
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Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
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Mega Steelix eh? So it's a mon with great defensive typing that allows it to check a great number of threats in the tier, very usable mixed defenses, and a strong enough offensive presence that allows it to punish foes to a far greater degree than is to be expected from a Pokemon with its calibre of bulk. Hmmm, what about it sounds familiar....oh wait


Remember how Aegislash single-handedly neutered otherwise solid Pokemon (Terrakion, Starmie, MegaVoir, Hawlucha, Mega Hera, etc...), and played a huge role in warping the whole meta around itself? I feel a similiar sense of deja vu with Mega Steelix's presence in NU. Sure, Mega Steelix is nowhere near as versatile, but its bulk combined with its power meant that it can easily punish teams that run any Pokemon it can check / switch into; considering the number of Pokemon Mega Steelix can respond to, this can apply to almost any team and lead to a form of restrictive / unhealthy centralisation. I agreed with the Aegislash ban then, and I'm all for boosting Mega Steelix out now before the meta starts taking too drastic a shift.

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I get what blarajan is going with when he said that there are so many powerful and effective top threats in NU that it can stunt and limit teambuilding to prepare for them, however I feel the issue is not as simple to describe as that, because it's not like NU hasn't faced its fair share of simultaneous overwhelming threats at once. Case in point: BW NU. No Stealth Rock means you can expect Charizard to tear you apart sooner or later (and even then that may not be enough to stop it), you need a fullstop to Musharna or there is no way one is breaking through its level of bulk, and then there are mons like Zangoose and Samurott that were a gamble just to defend against. Despite all the crazy amount of threats BW NU has, it never felt too restrictive to teambuilding bar Jynx and Pede, with anything above the C Ranks (and even some in it) still being viable or decently effective even in high ladder play.

Even now, despite NU having even more threats than before, I felt like NU has actually gotten more diverse in terms of viable mons it can use, as opposed to blarajan had said (and similiar to what PISTOLERO said). Sure, NU still has its top dog threats like Typh and Gatr and Lilligant and w/e one can care to name, but these threats manage to establish a rather dynamic balance with one another, with no particular threat seemingly overpowering for many playstyles at once as a result and thus allowing for more team variety. Except Mega Steelix, which kind of fucks up that dynamic what with its unbalanced proportion between bulk and power :P.

That said, I don't see any harm in suspect tests: if the threat turns out not to be too powerful, things can resume as normal, but if the threat turns out to be too strong, we're on our way to a more stable metagame. Wolfenstein's suggestion of using the UU system, which is to allow only one suspect into the metagame at a time, could be effective in helping us to discern the true issue our metagame is having right now: is it the number of threats that is putting the strain on teambuilding, or the threats themselves? Imagine a meta without Typh and Gatr, only one of the two at a time. This can allow us to put hypothetical teambuilding trends into effect, and also highlight the 'dynamic balance between threats' I was referring to (which is how differently the meta would shape into to respond to a certain top dog threat when the others are absent). Although hopefully the suspect system would be implemented in such a way that it allows the community to have some say, since pretty much every quickban / suspect we've had so far involved little to no community input.
 
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jake

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Contrary Grass Snake Verdict:

Raseri: Ban
Zebraiken: Ban
Bad Name Change Cased: Ban
Brawlfest: Ban
Dat Blast: Ban
FLCL: Ban
Hollywood: Ban
marilli: Ban
Montsegur: Ban
Punchshroom: Ban
Soulgazer: Ban
scorpdestroyer: Ban

Contrary Serperior has been deemed clearly overwhelming for NU, and it's really no question why if you played the metagame with Serperior at all. Having a STAB base 130 Nasty Plot at your hands whenever Serperior comes in reshapes the metagame entirely, and even all of the supposed checks for Serperior can be beaten by Serperior itself thanks to moves like Gastro Acid and Dragon Tail. Serperior is so uniquely dominant that it makes Pokemon like Samurott and Feraligatr (traditionally fantastic NU Pokemon) suboptimal team choices, and transforms the metagame into "who checks Serperior better". The ability to boost to +2 in a turn combined with Serperior's naturally high speed and ability to outmaneuver its checks and counters absolutely warrants a ban from NU.

For clarification purposes, since this wasn't established prior to the quickban process: This is a ban on Serperior itself. Additionally, this test marks the last quickban and purely NU Council vote. All future bans will follow a process to be established at a later date (qualifications will be ladder reqs - remember, you still have to post for TC).

Feel free to resume your conversation. =)
 
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boxofkangaroos

this is the day of the expanding man
Contrary Grass Snake Verdict:

Raseri: Ban
Zebraiken: Ban
Brawlfest: Ban
Dat Blast: Ban
FLCL: Ban
Hollywood: Ban
marilli: Ban
Montsegur: Ban
Punchshroom: Ban
Soulgazer: Ban
scorpdestroyer: Ban

Contrary Serperior has been deemed clearly overwhelming for NU, and it's really no question why if you played the metagame with Serperior at all. Having a STAB base 130 Nasty Plot at your hands whenever Serperior comes in reshapes the metagame entirely, and even all of the supposed checks for Serperior can be beaten by Serperior itself thanks to moves like Gastro Acid and Dragon Tail. Serperior is so uniquely dominant that it makes Pokemon like Samurott and Feraligatr (traditionally fantastic NU Pokemon) suboptimal team choices. The ability to boost to +2 in a turn combined with Serperior's naturally high speed and ability to outmaneuver its checks and counters warrants a ban from NU.

For clarification purposes, since this wasn't established prior to the quickban process: This is a ban on Contrary Serperior. Overgrow Serperior is still allowed. If it becomes necessary for whatever reason, we will review normal Serperior as well. Additionally, this test marks the last quickban and purely NU Council vote. All future bans will follow a process to be established at a later date (qualifications will be ladder reqs - remember, you still have to post for TC).

Feel free to resume your conversation. =)
Contrary Serperior will be BL3 rather than RU, correct?
 

jake

underdog of the year
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Top Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Previous decision has been amended: it is Serperior itself that is banned, not Contrary. I don't want to open that can of worms, nor that debate. Apologies for the momentary lapse of actual brain usage.

Cased voted but I forgot to include him in the post. It has been fixed. =)
 

toshimelonhead

Honey Badger don't care.
is a Tiering Contributor
I have to say looking back, why did we even waste our time even having Serperior in the tier to begin with? Part of the struggle with NU at the moment is the tier has had to endure having mons that made the tier basically unplayable. There are still a number of mons that have to go from NU and we have to be more aggressive on suspecting them. Right now I can't even tell what beyond Mega Steelix is extremely broken, but I could see another 6-7 mons go.
 
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