SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon

[Norne]

Meh, the whole "RSE Hoenn being in another timeline" thing still bothers me, but I think its because of how it was implemented rather it being a thing. The concept of alternate timelines isn't a new thing, Gen V I think handled it very well by having parallel stories and then have some vague mention that in another time and place the events could have unfolded a different yet similar way. In addition we have NPCs who make brief mention of a parallel dimension like the guy in Opelucid City who wanted to see a Blitzle from the other version or the people in White Forest/Black City saying they came from/want to go to the other version of that place. Pretty much it felt like while playing the game there's also another parallel story playing out in a parallel dimension and it was done in a way that made it feel their was some mysticism behind it.

But what they did in ORAS made me feel like I was reading a fanfiction. First off, the time-traveling reward I have no problem with. Actually I quite like it since its rewarding those players who been playing all thee years and been transferring their beloved Pokemon up through the generations with them. However that's something that's not really part of the game's story or lore, just a bonus for those who played the original RSE. Where it becomes fanfic-y is that it was never hinted at any point in the main game story that this was a parallel dimension to RSE Hoenn. Throughout play ORAS I felt like I was just playing an updated version of Hoenn. Retcons happen ALL the time in Pokemon, especially when new games come out. But then comes the Delta Episode where Zinnia just blurts out that RSE Hoenn exists in a parallel dimension and if we teleport the meteor it'll appear there and destroy it. What?! And honestly before she said that I was kind of with her. Before she said it it sounded like she was saying that if we teleport the meteor, even though we save ourselves, we could possibly doom another planet and its people. Now if she stopped right there it would have created an interesting dilemma. If we don't destroy the meteor here and now it could travel to another world and possibly doom it, meaning in the far future we may never come in contact with this alien world who probably have a whole planet of alien Pokemon. BUT THEN Zinnia says the world she's talking about is RSE Hoenn in an alternate dimension and I stopped caring.

Why? Well first off Zinnia how do you know this alternate Hoenn exists? Where's your proof? She says she knows it exists and that's the end of that. Second, if we accept there's an alternate Hoenn, who cares? I know, I sound like a heartless jerk, but in terms of future storylines, what does it matter that the Hoenn in the non-Mega Evolution/Kalos War/Infinite Energy timeline exist if we're never going back to that timeline? I'm saving a thing in an alternate which, whether it survives or not, doesn't really effect me. They're depending on the player's own nostalgia instead of the in-game character's thoughts and feelings to make us feel we shouldn't teleport the meteor away. Third, bringing up alternate dimensions is always a can of worms as if you're going to bring one parallel dimension you got to bring ALL of them in, you can't cherry pick the one you want to exist. For every decision there's new parallel universes that come into creation for every option. So guess what, even though if our story Zinnia stopped us from teleporting the meteor away, in another parallel ORAS she failed and we teleported the universe away. And in the end, what did it matter? Answer is nothing, because according to Zinnia it was teleported to another dimension thus anything it does in the alternate dimension won't effect us. Fourth and finally, that alternate Hoenn that Zinnia is worried about is the same timeline as the Mystery Dungeon series where in that game RAYQAUZA HAS NO PROBLEM DESTROYING A METEOR WITH A HYPER BEAM! Honestly it sounds like Mega Evolution was a bad thing for this timeline as it looked to have weakened the Pokemon species. Rayquaza now needs to Mega Evolve to destroy a meteor which previously it could destroy with a Hyper Beam and Kyogre & Groudon now need to Primal Devolve to cause the end of the world even though in the original games the just being awake was more then enough to do that.

And to top it all off Zinnia is treated like a Mary Sue character. She can do no wrong and is right about everything, no questions asked. Of course the writers must have realized this so slapped on some baggage onto her with the whole Aster thing and being unworthy of Mega Evolving Rayquaza. Now had Zinnia acted like she was being urgent and been straight forward about things I probably wouldn't feel spite toward her. Like if she just told the player and Steven straight-up that teleporting the meteor would destroy an alternate timeline Hoenn and then said she has an alternate solution that would be fine. But NOPE. Instead she mocks and taunts everyone, destroys what they think is their one and only hope to destroy the meteor, and THEN says she has an alternate solution (after giving everyone no choice). Speaking of Steven, I have no idea why Zinnia treats him with such disrespect. HE'S THE LEAGUE CHAMPION! He's someone you want on your side! But nope, how DARE he tries to save the whole planet by teleporting the meteor away not realizing it'll go to an alternate Hoenn! He should be treated like a fool and not be told how they could save both Hoenns until the very last moment!... B!#$%, we don't have time for that! A meteor is coming to destroy EVERYTHING we know, so the sooner you could have told us your solution the more likely we would have listened and done it without you giving us no choice. And it's not like you wouldn't have been able to talk to Steven, you're not only a Draconian but the Lorekeeper of the Draconains! Being the Draconians have a close relationship with the Sootapolitans you could have told Wallace who's known to be a good friend of Steven and he could have vouched for you. But no, instead let's do things that'll put tens if not hundreds of thousands of lives at risk. Remember it was Zinnia who told Archie/Maxie about how to awaken Groudon/Kyogre who would have ended the world if we didn't stop it. Actually, now thinking about it, BOTH of Zinnia's plans to summon Rayquaza would have ended the world if things didn't go right which the wouldn't if it wasn't for the player who she DIDN'T plan for. Rayquaza was too weak to stop Primal Kyogre/Groudon and Mega Evolve, so if it wasn't for the player and some luck the world would have ended on numerous occasions because of Zinnia! And throughout the whole thing she acted like a smug child. What a horrible character.

You pretty much summed my points on the fanfiction and Mary sue elements of Delta Episode, but I beg to differ Aster wasn't a balancing element, it was a flat out sympathetic tool that turned a black hole pass the torch Sue into a snowflake Sue as she is sooooo unique while keeping that mysterious trait that makes every grunt and their aunts refer to it.

And here I spend 10 years thinking Cynthia was a Sue, she got dethroned so hard I might even like her one bit just by the sheer hate I got on Zinnia, I swear to god, if any other character did a small slip on it, or they referenced small stuff I could have taken it better, but now I have to deal with the Sue says it syndrome.

 

[Pikachu315111]

And here I spend 10 years thinking Cynthia was a Sue, she got dethroned so hard I might even like her one bit just by the sheer hate I got on Zinnia, I swear to god, if any other character did a small slip on it, or they referenced small stuff I could have taken it better, but now I have to deal with the Sue says it syndrome.

I'm more willing to forgive Cynthia for her Mary Sue traits due to her being someone of importance. She's the Champion, of course she's going to be a powerful trainer who has some mystique about them and seem to know more then you. In addition she's an adult and doesn't act like a smug snake (I don't know how old Zinnia is, I do think its said she's a teenager and she sure acts like one). She acts mysterious, but only because the info she has is probably top secret. My only main problem with Cynthia is that in Platinum she's just standing to the side when you're battling Cyrus. It's implies she's strong enough to defeat Cyurs herself, but she's letting you do it because she's helping you get ready to challenge the League and her. Which is okay, sort of makes her a mentor character, but no, sorry Cynthia but Cyrus is ending the world, lay down the authority on him! Maybe they could have shown her dealing with Giratina who's in a middle of rage due to Cyrus's meddling. Would also like to know a bit more about her backstory, maybe in the Gen IV remakes.

 

[BlackButterfree]

^ ...I'm really, well and truly, beginning to suspect that most people's problem with the Pokemon multiverse thing isn't that Game Freak basically flat-out said it's there, but more with our little Draconid princess not doing a great job pointing it out and making the player feel alright with it. I'd say more about it, but I think Pikachu315111 pretty much said all there really is to say.

Although we'd do well to remember that events that happen in nearly any of the side games aside from maybe Colosseum/XD doesn't tie into the main series of games. Mystery Dungeon is quite far out from the main series, considering there are no humans native to the world PMD takes place in - just Pokemon. Also, Groudon/Kyogre don't undergo Primal Reversion until you're so far deep in the Cave of Origin the DexNav Plus is inoperable, so they're still causing havoc, just... um... their Primal forms would make it far worse, far faster? I don't know, I think it was more Groudon/Kyogre desiring the peak of their strength back, kind of like with the originals but now with an obvious power up. I mean, the original games never gave a great explanation as to why they left Seafloor Cavern for Cave of Origin...

Actually, in PMD there are humans, at least in the future and past (Grovyle calls you his human partner, Gengar was a human 1,000 years ago). They're far less common but they exist, and there's a theory that the PMD universe is one where the Ultimate Weapon worked a little too well on humans and that's why they're so scarce.

Also, all three Ranger games tie into the main canon through the Manaphy event. It's the only way to legitimately get Manahpy in the main series games outside of distributions. So Ranger and Orre are canon for sure. PMD could be a universe all of its own.

Anyway, I have no problem at all with the multi-verse. Especially since OR/AS has so far referenced the main game timeline, the anime, Pokémon Adventures and even Twitch Plays Pokémon. What I did have a problem with was Zinnia. I didn't like her one bit. She was so arrogant and overly chatty without being informative and she was just... horrible.

Edit: In the Birth Island event of Emerald, doesn't a meteor strike the ground when you first arrive? Granted, the Deoxys rock is still there, but it pretty much implies that the meteor hit the RSE Hoenn at the same time that OR/AS Hoenn destroyed theirs. And both Hoenn regions survived. So why was Zinnia so worried? Also, the meteor was 6 miles wide. Even if the atmosphere hadn't burnt the crap out of it, it would've taken out maybe half of Hoenn, and that's if it had struck land at all, it could've sunk into the ocean. Not to mention that M-Rayquaza is shown in the cutscene to be longer than the meteor and about 1/3 as wide... so it was much smaller at that point and would've been absolutely no danger to anyone... Zinnia is about as dumb as she is vague.

 

[-NLMRY-]

The problem with either of what you think may have been wiser is that the games themselves already acknowledge the existence of the R/S/E Hoenn in a couple ways.

The fact that they acknowledged the multiverse isn't a problem with my argument at all. I was arguing that they needn't bother, not whether they did. Your response was non-sequitur.

I think Pokémon (Nintendo in general) has a huge problem establishing rich, cohesive, self contained universes with its IPs (Pokémon, Zelda). Here's my argument:

Pokémon (Zelda) was created as a video game, and the first thing any video game needs is compelling gameplay to engage an audience and build a fan base. Stories may or may not enhance the gameplay elements. Because of this, games are (should) always be designed around gameplay, with their stories coming after. The gameplay is the house and its story and world-building elements are the paint.

All this is to say that the stories within Pokémon are second to its gameplay and are tacked on. When they developed R/B/Y they weren't thinking of G/S any more than D/P. (Other than if we can make a sequel, what, in terms of game play (double battles, day/night cycles, etc.) can we do to improve? Also, here's 400 leftover monster designs).

Zelda did the same thing. They tried to connect all the games as though they meant them to be in one cohesive timeline, which they were not created to be in. Nintendo had no plans for Ocarina when they made LoZ in the same way GF, when they were developing R/S/E, weren't thinking "in the future we might need to call this an alternate Hoenn 'cause we're going to have continued success and when we remake this game for a future handheld our gameplay advancements will need to be explained." Hence cop-out.

In summary, because the stories aren't developed first, and certainly not with the long term future in mind, the game series is bad at establishing its own canon. This is exacerbated by the fact that each game comes in two versions in which events happen slightly different from one another, and even more so by the fact that each of us has our own personal experience (takes a different route, trains different monsters, etc. - player-choice). Therefore, if GF wants the universe we want from them it should be established outside the games.

 

[Codraroll]

My stance on the entire "Game timeline and continuity" thing in Pokémon is remarkably similar to my stance on the same regarding cereal commercials.

That is, I seriously doubt they ever cared to even try to pretend to establish a continuity between the games. The story choices made for each game was made to fit the current game as good as possible, with maybe a throwback to other games, but a timeline... no.

Yes, there are fragments. We know GSC happened after RBY. Caitlin went from a Frontier Brain to an Elite Four member at some point. But with the exception of RBY -> GSC, I see those as isolated incidents, more like easter eggs or shout-outs to earlier games than serious attempts to create a continuous story.

It's unlikely that GameFreak thinks much about a canon or a timeline when they design the games. Trying to make sense of it and connect the dots is as unnecessary as it is pointless. An exercise for the imagination of certain fans, but there is very little solid ground to stand on, and a huge amount of outright guesswork and imagination is necessary to make coherence of it all. Trying to agree about it all is, well, futile.

If you so desperately want a continuity that everything fits into, the mention of multiverses in ORAS may seem as an attempt from GameFreak to clear up the mess. I rather think it's a cop-out, or a shout-out - I haven't quite deceided yet. In some ways, it makes the mess even bigger, and woe are those who try to find out what games happen in the same universe - again, fruitless and pointless.

The games were never meant to have a continuous story, at least not since GSC. GameFreak has never pretended they do, or endorsed any ideas of continuity. They make individual games, and do not make obligations in regards to continuity between them. They can give a shout-out now and then, but in the end, it's all an entangled mess made even worse by people trying to find sense in it.

 

[noobcubed]

-NLMRY- Couple of flaws in your argument.

1) Gameplay first, story suffers: no. In Pokemon gameplay is pretty much the same from game to game, sure there are new mechanics but it isn't going to start pulling Final-Fantasy-style realtime/turn-based hybrid combat systems, or radically alter the core gameplay in some other way. This gives them a free hand to do whatever they want with the story (beyond the obligatory eight badges + elite four + champion thing). It's not like unique gameplay mechanics in each new game are shackling the story.

2) GameFreak are thinking in the short term. As Pokemon has retained its relevance for nearly twenty years, GF can and ought to be thinking further and further ahead, right?

 

[nimbosa]

As for Kyogre/Groudon, though they didn't Primal Devolve until you battled them they still had their Orbs which I imagine was empowering them.

no, archie/maxie had the orbs. kyogre/groudon didn't take them with them when they broke out of the seafloor cavern, and archie/maxie give you the orbs after you fight kyogre/groudon.

I always thought that there were two types of Champion: the League Champion and a Titled Champion. The League Champion is a Champion who works for the Pokemon League and in charge of challenging challengers who seek a Champion title. A Titled Champion is just a trainer who has defeated a League Champion and now holds the title Champion, however they have no responsibility to the Pokemon League. So it's possible to have multiple Title Champions walking around, but there can only ever be one League Champion who is open to challenges. If a League Champion wants to quit their position then they can choose one of the Titled Champions as their successor. However being all Titled Champions have the right to claim succession, if there are multiple Titled Champions who want the title they'll need to battle against one another to see who's the strongest (though we don't know if this has ever happened).

this still doesn't jive with delta episode. steven is referred to as the former champion multiple times. personally i'm just going with the player character giving the position back to steven off-screen, and his conversation with wallace taking place after that. another explanation is that steven wasn't talking about the championship at all. he only mentions "duties to the pokemon league".

 

[-NLMRY-]

-NLMRY- Couple of flaws in your argument.

1) Gameplay first, story suffers: no. In Pokemon gameplay is pretty much the same from game to game, sure there are new mechanics but it isn't going to start pulling Final-Fantasy-style realtime/turn-based hybrid combat systems, or radically alter the core gameplay in some other way. This gives them a free hand to do whatever they want with the story (beyond the obligatory eight badges + elite four + champion thing). It's not like unique gameplay mechanics in each new game are shackling the story.

2) GameFreak are thinking in the short term. As Pokemon has retained its relevance for nearly twenty years, GF can and ought to be thinking further and further ahead, right?

I definitely see your where you're coming from, noobcubed. I think that Codraroll articulated what I was trying to say far better than I did. However, to address your points, I was not saying the story suffers because the focus is on gameplay, rather that it's secondary. Gameplay doesn't hinder story development and stories don't drive it, make sense? Mega evolution wasn't created to serve a plot point, for example, but the plot had to be developed around it. You're right that GF aren't going to radically change the format that has worked for so long, but they could radically change the narrative and it would still be Pokémon. People would have complained far more if Pokémon Ranger had been released as a main series game in lieu of D/P, than they are about the multiverse (which is probably not many, admittedly).

With regards to point two, I was more or less talking about the early progression of the series and why, with regards to it not having a cohesive canon, it is so disconnected in the first place. My example was meant to argue that they needn't try and connect RSE to ORAS, not that they don't have a long term plan. I'm sure they do, every successful business does, but I would still argue that GF aren't focusing their energy on developing the series' canon in the way that Lucas did with Star Wars through the expanded universe. There was an interview I read a while ago with one of the lead GF employees discussing how they never thought they'd make a sequel to R/G/B and when they did, they thought that would be last game (G/S). They believed the fad would die down sooner rather than later and so they merchandised it as much as they could, but didn't think it had lasting appeal. I tried to find it, but I read it so long ago that I don't remember who was interviewed or for what. But that was basically my point about not having a plan.

The problem with both of our arguments is that they're based on assumptions neither of us can prove. Sure, by retaining the core gameplay it follows that they can allocate more resources to story/world development, but that doesn't mean they do. And who knows what they have in store for the series in the future. Maybe they will start connecting all the dots (that were never meant to be connected, like Zelda).

 

[Pikachu315111]

no, archie/maxie had the orbs. kyogre/groudon didn't take them with them when they broke out of the seafloor cavern, and archie/maxie give you the orbs after you fight kyogre/groudon.

this still doesn't jive with delta episode. steven is referred to as the former champion multiple times. personally i'm just going with the player character giving the position back to steven off-screen, and his conversation with wallace taking place after that. another explanation is that steven wasn't talking about the championship at all. he only mentions "duties to the pokemon league".

Ah, okay, so Kyogre and Groudon were still strong enough to cause the end of the world by themselves. But then what's the point of Primal Kyogre and Primal Groudon?

As for the Champion thing, yeah ORAS does throw a bit of a monkey wrench into my idea. You're idea that the player probably gives the title back (probably after the story of ORAS ends and the protagonist decides to explore the other regions without wanting to be bogged down) does sound like what's implied. Though that still sorta falls within my theory a bit with some adjustments (otherwise Steven, Red, Blue, and Alder wouldn't be considered "Champions" in BW2).

I definitely see your where you're coming from, noobcubed. I think that Codraroll articulated what I was trying to say far better than I did. However, to address your points, I was not saying the story suffers because the focus is on gameplay, rather that it's secondary. Gameplay doesn't hinder story development and stories don't drive it, make sense? Mega evolution wasn't created to serve a plot point, for example, but the plot had to be developed around it. You're right that GF aren't going to radically change the format that has worked for so long, but they could radically change the narrative and it would still be Pokémon. People would have complained far more if Pokémon Ranger had been released as a main series game in lieu of D/P, than they are about the multiverse (which is probably not many, admittedly).

With regards to point two, I was more or less talking about the early progression of the series and why, with regards to it not having a cohesive canon, it is so disconnected in the first place. My example was meant to argue that they needn't try and connect RSE to ORAS, not that they don't have a long term plan. I'm sure they do, every successful business does, but I would still argue that GF aren't focusing their energy on developing the series' canon in the way that Lucas did with Star Wars through the expanded universe. There was an interview I read a while ago with one of the lead GF employees discussing how they never thought they'd make a sequel to R/G/B and when they did, they thought that would be last game (G/S). They believed the fad would die down sooner rather than later and so they merchandised it as much as they could, but didn't think it had lasting appeal. I tried to find it, but I read it so long ago that I don't remember who was interviewed or for what. But that was basically my point about not having a plan.

The problem with both of our arguments is that they're based on assumptions neither of us can prove. Sure, by retaining the core gameplay it follows that they can allocate more resources to story/world development, but that doesn't mean they do. And who knows what they have in store for the series in the future. Maybe they will start connecting all the dots (that were never meant to be connected, like Zelda).

I think one thing we should remember is that with each generation priorities change. Gen V was the second generation of games on the DS, the first time something like that happened. They were still using sprites for the most part but they were experimenting much more with 3D graphics. Not only were they experimenting with that, but since they probably knew this was going to be the last sprite game they probably decided to experiment by giving it a deeper story then any other Pokemon game and following up that story with sequel games instead of a 3rd version remake. They also experimented with the concept of versions, making it sort of matter what version you picked as it not only changed the story elements but also changed how some places looked and even having a location exclusive area. Finally they also experimented with online capabilities with the Global Link (and Dream World, though that was discontinued after not meeting their expectations). One could say that Gen V was the experimental generation, their priority was testing things out/doing things they've wanted to do as well as end the era of the main games being sprites with a bang.

With XY the priority was revitalizing the franchise which the common conscious has looked upon becoming stale. So they shook things up by bringing the games into full 3D graphics (which has allowed the creation of Pokemon-Amie so we could finally "play" with our Pokemon), adding a new type (though you could argue that's for type balance), and introducing Mega Evolutions. Sadly this did probably mean story wasn't a focus, if I recall GameFreak even had to ask Nintendo for additional staff to help with the model creations to make it on time. They finished the game in the nick of time as is, who knows how much longer it would have taken them to also add in a "better" story.

Also let's not forget the situation Nintendo was in at the time. Though right now Nintendo is starting to gain back its momentum, at the time of XY Nintendo wasn't making its projected profits and with how fast Gen VI came out after Gen V I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo had asked for them to rush development. Gen V was released on the DS which was Nintendo's best selling console (and 2nd best selling console of all time, the PS2 outselling it by just a million consoles) so there was no rush on GameFreak to release a game they'll know that'll sell allowing them room to experiment. But during the time of XY the 3DS was inching along and the WiiU was looked upon as a failure so not only was revitalizing the franchise a main priority but also releasing the game asap due to the bad shape of Nintendo's financial outlooks was at the time.

 

[nimbosa]

Ah, okay, so Kyogre and Groudon were still strong enough to cause the end of the world by themselves. But then what's the point of Primal Kyogre and Primal Groudon?

i don't think it's ever said they are strong enough to cause the end of the world by themselves. the rain/sunlight only goes as far as lilycove while they're not primal. if i'm not mistaken, they head to sootopolis specifically to seek out power that will help them bring the world's destruction.

As for the Champion thing, yeah ORAS does throw a bit of a monkey wrench into my idea. You're idea that the player probably gives the title back (probably after the story of ORAS ends and the protagonist decides to explore the other regions without wanting to be bogged down) does sound like what's implied. Though that still sorta falls within my theory a bit with some adjustments (otherwise Steven, Red, Blue, and Alder wouldn't be considered "Champions" in BW2).

yeah, your theory is pretty sound if you assume the player gave it back after destroying the meteor, and that the champion title in b2w2 is exactly that: a title rather than a position. but i think the position is automatically passed if the champion is defeated, rather than only being passed voluntarily.

side note: i'm disappointed you can't double battle steven and wallace during elite 4 rematches. it's about time we had a champion double battle, and it would have been a cool nod to emerald.

 

[Pikachu315111]

i don't think it's ever said they are strong enough to cause the end of the world by themselves. the rain/sunlight only goes as far as lilycove while they're not primal. if i'm not mistaken, they head to sootopolis specifically to seek out power that will help them bring the world's destruction.

yeah, your theory is pretty sound if you assume the player gave it back after destroying the meteor, and that the champion title in b2w2 is exactly that: a title rather than a position. but i think the position is automatically passed if the champion is defeated, rather than only being passed voluntarily.

side note: i'm disappointed you can't double battle steven and wallace during elite 4 rematches. it's about time we had a champion double battle, and it would have been a cool nod to emerald.

Still, if Kyogre and Groudon can gain the power to end the world without having to go Primal (unless they can gain the power to do so in the Cave of Origin), why do we have the Primal Evolutions via the Orbs? In RS originally the Orb was needed to wake up the Legendary however the villains grabbed the wrong Orb which, while it did wake up the Legendary, got it angry which made it start the process that would end the world. In ORAS, though the Orb is still needed to wake up the Legendary, this time the villain used the right orb... YET the Legendary still went out of control. Now I thought this was because, since the Orbs can now cause Primal Evolution (and if I recall the weather data that Shelly examined was from back when it was in its Primal form) that it went crazy with power. However if the only thing the orb did was wake it up then why did it go crazy? Shouldn't it be under the command of the one holding its orb, much like it was its Pokeball? And back to the Primal thing, they advertised the Primal evolutions being a big deal to the extent of putting them on the box art and shoving them in the story... yet they don't really factor in on the end of the world part?

Well obviously if the Champion wants to step down and has someone in mind to take their place and it's not a former Champion that person would need to defeat them. After ORAS at some point Wallace will defeat Steven and become Champion much like how in BW2 Iris needed to defeat Alder before becoming Champion (no idea how Lance became Champion though. If I had to guess Red didn't want the responsibilities of Champion so gave them back to Blue and eventually Lance was able to defeat Blue). Though in the case of the main protagonists it looks like if someone wants to step down they are able to pass the full title back to a previous Champion without said previous Champion needing to battle them (because do you think a game Champion would ever be able to defeat a player Champion? Probably not, which is why I think Lance would need to defeat Blue to become Champion rather then defeating Red). So to quickly rework my idea:

There's ever only one Champion, we'll call them the League Champion. As soon as they're defeated they lose that title to the person who defeated them and become a Titled Champion, a person who once was a League Champion. At any time the League Champion can step down and give their position back to a Titled Champion, thus switching titles. Because of this it's possible for their to be multiple Titled Champions, but there's only ever one League Champion.

Of course this does raise the question why you still battle the Champion as the League Champion, though I guess you can either count that as gameplay and story segregation (you only ever challenged the League once in-story), there's some transitional period between the Champion switch so in the meantime the former Champion still acts as League Champion (and I wouldn't be surprised if in-story before the switch is complete the main protagonist gives back the title. Also guessing any new challenger would be asked to wait until the transition is done), or you and the former Champion are just having a friendly battle (and just for fun if he wins he/she gets their title back, not like that'll happen).

Yeah, would have been cool to have a Steven & Wallace double battle. But then again we miss out on a lot of cool ideas like that. Like in the end it looks like Archie and Maxie have buried the hatchet, so why not let us battle them in a Double Battle? Or why at some point in the story couldn't we have a Double battle with the two admins teaming up of a boss teaming up with an admin (which was done in Emerald with Maxie and Tabitha). Of course, before then I would have at least liked to re-battle the Gym Leaders...

 

[Norne]

You are thinking to much into the four heavenly Knights aka elite four. You get the title of champion apparently by election as Alder stated, then those who defeat the e4 and champ are recognized as champions of their league. The title is not lost, they don't drop their duties but have fun battling with you or any challenger in the rematches, you are thinking too much about it.

A champion can drop of its title and put someone else capable of holding the title and be the last challenge after the e4, they don't lose their function by losing and you don't get to sit in a room till someone beats the e4 to battle you, as you are just the champion of the region by tittle, not by function.

 

[Pikachu315111]

You are thinking to much into the four heavenly Knights aka elite four. You get the title of champion apparently by election as Alder stated, then those who defeat the e4 and champ are recognized as champions of their league. The title is not lost, they don't drop their duties but have fun battling with you or any challenger in the rematches, you are thinking too much about it.

A champion can drop of its title and put someone else capable of holding the title and be the last challenge after the e4, they don't lose their function by losing and you don't get to sit in a room till someone beats the e4 to battle you, as you are just the champion of the region by tittle, not by function.

Then why during the Delta Episode was Steven considered the "former Champion"?

As for the whole Alder being elected thing, I have to assume that was a special circumstance where they needed to elect a Champion due to something happening to the former Champion (my guess either dying or quitting) and no one had been able to beat that Champion. But normally in order to get a Champion title you need to beat a Champion through a League Challenge.

Also I think we can probably separate their duties to the Pokemon League and duties as Champion as two separate things. Though they probably start getting their duties from the League by becoming the Champion (after all, they are the strongest trainers so why not use them), it's more of an additional thing then the two being linked. It could be that the current Champion is probably is sent to do more public appearance stuff while former Champions can do whatever they want until they're needed (if anything losing the League Champion title frees them up to do tasks they couldn't do as League Champion).

 

[Norne]

Then why during the Delta Episode was Steven considered the "former Champion"?

As for the whole Alder being elected thing, I have to assume that was a special circumstance where they needed to elect a Champion due to something happening to the former Champion (my guess either dying or quitting) and no one had been able to beat that Champion. But normally in order to get a Champion title you need to beat a Champion through a League Challenge.

Also I think we can probably separate their duties to the Pokemon League and duties as Champion as two separate things. Though they probably start getting their duties from the League by becoming the Champion (after all, they are the strongest trainers so why not use them), it's more of an additional thing then the two being linked. It could be that the current Champion is probably is sent to do more public appearance stuff while former Champions can do whatever they want until they're needed (if anything losing the League Champion title frees them up to do tasks they couldn't do as League Champion).

Id like to read the original text, as the former champion thing, as he is still referred as the champion on the e4 challenge. You become know as the champion for defeating him, but you don't null his title at all.

At most you gain recognition post entering half of fame, that has been included in all the games, but it has been explored further since the 5th gen as even after the 4th Gen extra areas unlock you are just referenced as a strong trainer. Where in the fifth you get the champion acknowledgement at the unlocks.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Id like to read the original text, as the former champion thing, as he is still referred as the champion on the e4 challenge. You become know as the champion for defeating him, but you don't null his title at all.

At most you gain recognition post entering half of fame, that has been included in all the games, but it has been explored further since the 5th gen as even after the 4th Gen extra areas unlock you are just referenced as a strong trainer. Where in the fifth you get the champion acknowledgement at the unlocks.

Meh, I think this is just another thing to add onto the pile of things GameFreak didn't really think through like with continuity. What does it mean to be Champion? What happens when you defeat the Champion? What happens to the Champion you defeated? Don't know, as the games seem to be stuck "in the moment".

 

[Norne]

Meh, I think this is just another thing to add onto the pile of things GameFreak didn't really think through like with continuity. What does it mean to be Champion? What happens when you defeat the Champion? What happens to the Champion you defeated? Don't know, as the games seem to be stuck "in the moment".

Nothing happens to the previous champion. That has been proved several times in the franchise, they don't step down and they continue to accept challenges as the pinnacle challenge for those that have 8 badges.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Nothing happens to the previous champion. That has been proved several times in the franchise, they don't step down and they continue to accept challenges as the pinnacle challenge for those that have 8 badges.

However nimbosa pointed out that Steven is apparently the former Champion as said by his father and Zinnia:

Mr. Joseph Stone:

"Ahem! Oh, I know. I know what you (Steven) want to say. My, what a hasty, impatient one you are! What are we to do with such an impatient one for our Pokemon League Champion? ...Hm? Oh, is that so? So you're the new Champion, <player>? Then I guess we'll never break you of that impatience after all, Steven! Ho ho ho ho!"

Zinnia:

"Ahahahaha! What's up with that? You're a pretty simple guy for a former Pokemon League Champion. Then I guess I'll hang my hopes on what our current Champion will have to say. So how about it, <player>? What do you think? Do you have some better idea?"

 

[Norne]

However nimbosa pointed out that Steven is apparently the former Champion as said by his father and Zinnia:

Mr. Joseph Stone:


Zinnia:

The champion never steps down unless they can't fulfill their duties or pass down the touch as evidenced on Steven Wallace talk in this game, Iris on Alder, Agatha on FRLG, Drake in E, from a game standpoint it's a way of farming money and exp, but you don't sit in a room waiting for the next 10 yold kid to beat the game.

It stands that you best the champion, not that he loses its function, nor it's position or respect, Alder stayed in its role till Iris recently took it, Wallace got the title handed down as a skilled trainer, not because he defeated Steven, at most it was called as filling his spot. The only instance in wich the former champion was defeated prior to his defeat was on Alder test for Iris on the spot.

The N incident further proved it as Alder role remained unchanged but giving you N and Ghetsis figth as a foil to their publicity stunt.

 

[Lady Vader]

The problem with the champion is that we can only view an Elite Four run from one perspective, so we are assuming things from an incomplete view.
For starters, it wouldn't make sense for the champion to stay in that room all the time. The games don't even have the champion in the champion room all the time. It's likely that they are only alerted if someone is close to finishing their run (which is likely rare...think of all the Nuzlockes that failed during the Elite Four). Let's just assume no one gets that far as long as we are playing the champion post-game.
Also, it is likely that former champions will return if the current champion wants to have a run through the Elite Four. This would explain the reappearance of Blue, Lance, Steven, Wallace, Cynthia, Iris, and Diantha (Alder is a different case due to N's involvement, so Hilbert even technically being the champion is unknown).

 

[Pikachu315111]

The champion never steps down unless they can't fulfill their duties or pass down the touch as evidenced on Steven Wallace talk in this game, Iris on Alder, Agatha on FRLG, Drake in E, from a game standpoint it's a way of farming money and exp, but you don't sit in a room waiting for the next 10 yold kid to beat the game.

It stands that you best the champion, not that he loses its function, nor it's position or respect, Alder stayed in its role till Iris recently took it, Wallace got the title handed down as a skilled trainer, not because he defeated Steven, at most it was called as filling his spot. The only instance in wich the former champion was defeated prior to his defeat was on Alder test for Iris on the spot.

The N incident further proved it as Alder role remained unchanged but giving you N and Ghetsis figth as a foil to their publicity stunt.

As Vader_the_White said, the Champion (nor the Elite Four) don't just sit in their room all day. They got responsibilities and their own goals and we've seen them plenty of times outside of the Pokemon League. It's likely the initial run is the only one that happened in-story (other challenges afterwards is for pure gameplay purposes) and they were all probably alerted to go to the Pokemon League as a trainer just for their 8 Badges and will be heading their way now.

As we've adjusted the theory, it's most likely that the player (and any of their competent rivals) is probably the only trainer who has defeated them and, being a kid, they don't want the responsibilities of being the Champion so after the game's story probably hands the position back to the previous Champion. They still have a Champion title and the respect that comes with it, they just aren't responsible for testing new trainers to possibly become Champion and any other duties the League Champion is responsible for.

Also what sense does it make that the Champion can just give the position to any trainer he sees fit? You're saying Wallace didn't need to battle the Elite Four and Steven to become Champion? Why wouldn't he? The ONLY advantage Wallace gets is that, being a Gym Leader, he doesn't need to collect the 8 Badges to challenge the Pokemon League. However in order to be accepted as Champion he'll need to defeat the trainers who are still ranked above him. The same with Lance except for Lance, being an Elite Four member, he was probably able to challenge Blue directly.

N states after beating Alder that he's the Champion now, the only reason Alder retained the position was because N abandoned the position after releasing Ghetsis's plan and the player stopped him.

The problem with the champion is that we can only view an Elite Four run from one perspective, so we are assuming things from an incomplete view.
For starters, it wouldn't make sense for the champion to stay in that room all the time. The games don't even have the champion in the champion room all the time. It's likely that they are only alerted if someone is close to finishing their run (which is likely rare...think of all the Nuzlockes that failed during the Elite Four). Let's just assume no one gets that far as long as we are playing the champion post-game.
Also, it is likely that former champions will return if the current champion wants to have a run through the Elite Four. This would explain the reappearance of Blue, Lance, Steven, Wallace, Cynthia, Iris, and Diantha (Alder is a different case due to N's involvement, so Hilbert even technically being the champion is unknown).

I don't think it's even that. In-story player only goes through the Pokemon League once. Player beats Champion and becomes Champion, player does postgame sutff (if even that), player returns title back to previous Champion after the story ends thus why they're still considered Champion if referenced or seen in another game.

 

[Lady Vader]

I don't think it's even that. In-story player only goes through the Pokemon League once. Player beats Champion and becomes Champion, player does postgame sutff (if even that), player returns title back to previous Champion after the story ends thus why they're still considered Champion if referenced or seen in another game.

Only four champions are seen in other games that take place after the previous games (outside of the Champions Tournament in B2W2):
Blue in GSCHGSS
Steven in HGSS
Cynthia in BWB2W2
Alder in B2W2

Now, Blue was a Gym Leader in those games and HGSS might take place after Emerald, not Ruby or Sapphire, so Steven might not have been the champion May/Brendan beat. In both the cases of Cynthia and Alder, they have the "PKMN Trainer" class, not champion.
Plus, any mention of Kanto/Hoenn in Gen III, Sinnoh/Johto in Gen IV, and (likely) Unova in Gen VI needs to be considered contemporaneous considering the timeline that was said in those games (Platinum and HGSS clearly indicate that they happen around the same time at the very least).
Also, in the Champions Tournament, they all have the "PKMN Trainer" class. And they are all former champions by this point.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Only four champions are seen in other games that take place after the previous games (outside of the Champions Tournament in B2W2):
Blue in GSCHGSS
Steven in HGSS
Cynthia in BWB2W2
Alder in B2W2

Now, Blue was a Gym Leader in those games and HGSS might take place after Emerald, not Ruby or Sapphire, so Steven might not have been the champion May/Brendan beat. In both the cases of Cynthia and Alder, they have the "PKMN Trainer" class, not champion.
Plus, any mention of Kanto/Hoenn in Gen III, Sinnoh/Johto in Gen IV, and (likely) Unova in Gen VI needs to be considered contemporaneous considering the timeline that was said in those games (Platinum and HGSS clearly indicate that they happen around the same time at the very least).
Also, in the Champions Tournament, they all have the "PKMN Trainer" class. And they are all former champions by this point.

Are they, or is it that they just wanted to save the "Champion" title for the Champion of the region we're in? Afterall, even though they're called PKMN Trainer they're still battling in the Champion Tournament. Also even if they aren't the BW2 Tournament still has all the other region Gym Leaders over in Unova so it's not like any League challenges are happening... if you consider the PWT canon which I don't since the kid/teenager Gym Leaders are oddly still kids/teenagers despite it being 5+ years the last time we saw them.

FINAL THOUGHTS:
You know, I don't think we have enough information to know what's up with the Champion title. I feel like we're going around in circles now. I think all we can say for sure is that you get a Champion title be defeating the Champion and that's it. Who knows, maybe each region does Champion titles differently.

 

[nimbosa]

The champion never steps down unless they can't fulfill their duties or pass down the touch as evidenced on Steven Wallace talk in this game,

but steven is referred to multiple times as the former champion. in this very game. there must be some explanation for that, and the champion title being the player's before they give it back to steven is the best explanation.

Iris on Alder, Agatha on FRLG, Drake in E, from a game standpoint it's a way of farming money and exp, but you don't sit in a room waiting for the next 10 yold kid to beat the game.

well yeah, that would be boring. i would like to see a game where you are given the option to battle trainers who get through the elite four though.

It stands that you best the champion, not that he loses its function, nor it's position or respect, Alder stayed in its role till Iris recently took it, Wallace got the title handed down as a skilled trainer, not because he defeated Steven, at most it was called as filling his spot.

the manga explains that wallace is qualified for the championship but voluntarily gave it to steven. it's not official game canon, but it's worth noting.

i've never played bw or b2w2, so i can't speak for alder and iris, but surely something similar is possible to what we've been discussing? the player character (or N, whoever) gave the championship back to alder or simply turned down their claim to it, then iris won it.

The only instance in wich the former champion was defeated prior to his defeat was on Alder test for Iris on the spot.

and blue in gen 1. and, you know, the player character in ORAS who is literally called the current champion after beating steven, who is then referred to as the former champion.

The N incident further proved it as Alder role remained unchanged but giving you N and Ghetsis figth as a foil to their publicity stunt.

from what i do know of N, it doesn't seem like he would actually WANT to be champion, so my point remains.

besides, it's always possible different leagues have different rules.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

ORAS did confuse the whole champion thing didn't it? In pretty much every previous instalment you can stop paying attention to continuity when you become champion (or at least i do as it really simplifies things) and just pretend that in-universe you either refused the position or actually did take on the role and face other challengers at the pokemon league, but with a postgame story like the delta episode multiple characters' dialogue calls attention to the 'new' and 'former' champions, without acknowledging your duty to battle other aspiring champions.

And the whole Zinnia thing definitely annoyed me too, both because of how sanctimonious she was and how she could have told everyone the superimportant truth only she knew instead of treating it like a game and messing everyone around and ASSAULTING MULTIPLE PEOPLE BEFORE STEALING FROM THEM

 

[Agonist]

You would still be the champion even if you turned down the spot; after all, you did just beat the former champion. The news report isn't wrong by calling your character the new champion, and Steven the former one.