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It has a decent parashuffler set that should see it at least ranked, as well as a mammoth defense stat. It also runs decent tank sets. C-/D I'd agree with, but not unranked. It's not good, but it does have more niches>Skarm than you credited it. It has better defense + filter to take on T-Flame better, can phaze and spread T-Wave. I know Skarm can phaze, but it has terrible 4MSS which often sees it running another move. The only problem Aggron's parashuffle set has is it runs roar and gets shut down by taunt or dragon tail and is shut down by fairies.
I can definitely see Mega Beedrill for B. It only really has one good set, and that one set - protect/turn/jab/meh coverage - is walled by a lot of pokemon and isn't the most effective thing in the world; not to mention it only fits on volt-turn teams. I don't exactly see it being as safe or consistent as, say, Raikou or Chansey. Not to mention that on volt-turn it faces a lot of competition from Mega Manectric.
Just deleted some posts on things like "why is this not at a certain rank" or "why hasn't this been discussed." These don't provide anything useful and clutters up the thread. If you have a concern with a ranking make a nomination with relevant and sufficient enough reasons that aren't one liners. trc feel free to update the op or title to reflect this comment if you want.
Manaphy from A ---> A-: Yes. The drop is justified; offensive and balanced teams finally carry answers to bulky CM Water-types thanks to Mega Slowbullshit. This limits mana's effectiveness against all but stall, where it's still pretty solid.
Tornadus-T from A- ---> A: No. I honestly think this thing should never rise above A-, just because of how inconsistent its main STAB and coverage is. There's a 70% chance you'll do decent damage, and 30% chance you do absolutely nothing, half the time you attack. For that reason alone it shouldn't rise any further.
Dragonite from B+ ---> A-: No. Dragonite's DD set is underwhelming (I think the last time I saw a Dragonite sweep was in Gen 5), and its band set is neat, but tends to be verrrrry prediction reliant, as it tends to either hit pretty weak or give Clefable a free +2 +2 via Outrage.
Kingdra from B+ ---> A-: No. It's useful in rain, and rain alone. It's not even a staple in rain though, and competes for its teamslot with Omastar (who has the benefit of not caring about Talonflame).
Mew from B+ ---> A-: Yes. Even though it isn't anywhere near as effective against stall as it used to be, it's still an annoying bastard to face if you lack a Mega Sableye. On top of that, Mew's massive movepool leaves room for tons of surprise sets and lures, giving it quite a bit of versatility.
Mega Beedrill from B+ ---> B: No. Beedrill still has the niche of being one of the most useful mons on Voltturn, despite its frailty. Its speed tier and ability to punch big holes while keeping momentum is pretty useful, and for this reason it should stay in B+.
Mega Sceptile from B+ ---> B: Undecided on this one.
Volcarona from B ---> B+: Undecided, but leaning towards no. Heatran's usage is pretty high these days, and it's honestly a massive pain to make a team appropriate for Volc.
Togekiss from B ---> B+: Yes. The paraflinch set is brutally obnoxious, the nasty plot set is neat, and the Defog set is...kinda bad, but can fulfill niches.
Victini from B ---> B+: Undecided.
Mega Ampharos from C+ ---> C: Yes. Is there really anybody using MAmph in ORAS lol
Slowking from C ---> B-: No. I guess if you really hate HP Electric Keldeo or really need phasing it's nice, but I'd honestly rather just use Slowbro.
Mienshao from C ---> D: Yes. It's competing against a dozen Fighting-types for a teamslot, and honestly, the main reason you'd use it is for the novelty of using Mienshao, rather than anything practical. Increased speed tier over Terrakion and Keldeo is cool, but it doesn't really do much.
also lol at AM replying to a one-liner with a one-liner in order to stop one-liners
Going along with xcsmj 's little C/D ranks to Unranked revolution...
Mega Aggron C --> Unranked
Maybe this seems drastic to some, but... I don't know what this does. I don't think anyone knows what this does. I don't think there is a thing it actually does because it can only really fit into stall teams, and the options you have for those these days are so much better. Sableye, Altaria, Venusaur, I know all of these do different tasks to Aggron's but I don't think Aggron's is really appreciated these days. Scraping the bottom of the barrel, the jobs I can find it being good at are:-
-Physical Defensive Steel-type wall
-Birdspam check
-Stealth Rock setter
So in this case... why aren't you using Skarmory
Seriously though, these three tasks are accomplished by Skarmory pretty damn easily. So Aggron's niche in this case would be... Skarmory with sort of offensive presence that doesn't die to volt switch...? I mean... that's nice and all, but why would you use your Mega Slot for it?
Admittedly I'm probably biased here and I've never used it so this is really subject to theorymon, but I'm not sure why Aggron deserves to be ranked. If anyone who's used it can tell me what it does well, cool. I see a Resttalk set on the analysis; is that good? I doubt it but give me something here. All in all I don't see why anyone would consider Mega Aggron for a slot on their team without being experienced, and that's why I think it should be unranked. At the very least it in no way deserves to be considered on the level of Infernape.
Skarmory's bulk isn't as good as it used to be, and whenever I use it, I find myself roosting all the time and losing momentum. I find it actually pretty difficult to set up hazards with it safely vs. offense. Aggron on the other hand just takes neutral physical hits or non-stab super effective hits with near impunity (in addition to being stealth rock resistant) which means you can throw out stealth rocks or an attack that can actually do something (brave bird is nothing, counter is unreliable) while walling stuff. And actually, you can't recover haha, but it's bulk is good enough to tank several strong physical hits.
I'm not sure if it really deserves a mega slot either, but the fact that it's less willing to concede momentum than skarm is a big deal imo.
It has a decent parashuffler set that should see it at least ranked, as well as a mammoth defense stat. It also runs decent tank sets. C-/D I'd agree with, but not unranked. It's not good, but it does have more niches>Skarm than you credited it. It has better defense + filter to take on T-Flame better, can phaze and spread T-Wave. I know Skarm can phaze, but it has terrible 4MSS which often sees it running another move. The only problem Aggron's parashuffle set has is it runs roar and gets shut down by taunt or dragon tail and is shut down by fairies.
I agree with everything, but wouldn't fairies be threatened by a steal type stab bar klefki, even uninvested unboosted base 140 (I think) isnt amazing but still enough to threaten the fairies that can come in. From what I see the move for the set is
-iron head
-thunder wave
-stealth rock
-dragon tail/roar
I'm on mobile so I can't do calcs but unless I missed a move aggron desperately needs, feel free to tell me since I have no experience with m-aggron. I'm not supporting it moving up or down, I'm just pointing out that it has a free move slot to run a STAB and make dragon tail the more reliable option.
Anyhow, about my previous Blastoise nom -- I think I was hyping it just a little too much. Having now used it extensively, I still believe what I said holds true for the most part. It's still an incredible spinner and offensive team support; clearing out annoying Pokémon so SD Talonflame, Serperior and the like can set up and sweep. Also forms a great core with Celebi. However, I don't think it should move to B- -- it definitely deserves a spot in C+ however, as I honestly believe it to be a notch above the likes of Glalie, Gourgeist and whatever else is there.
I agree with everything, but wouldn't fairies be threatened by a steal type stab bar klefki, even uninvested unboosted base 140 (I think) isnt amazing but still enough to threaten the fairies that can come in. From what I see the move for the set is
-iron head
-thunder wave
-stealth rock
-dragon tail/roar
I'm on mobile so I can't do calcs but unless I missed a move aggron desperately needs, feel free to tell me since I have no experience with m-aggron. I'm not supporting it moving up or down, I'm just pointing out that it has a free move slot to run a STAB and make dragon tail the more reliable option.
I was talking about the Rest/Sleep Talk/Thunder Wave/Phazing move set, but thinking about it the set you've put is probably better. It would be nice if it had recover...
I was talking about the Rest/Sleep Talk/Thunder Wave/Phazing move set, but thinking about it the set you've put is probably better. It would be nice if it had recover...
As for the pika nom: I'd have thought that guy would have predicted the wimsy switch one in 4 times (and not try to set up on a taunt user as well).
The set I used I think works best with stall, which always packs a cleric and wish passer to help support it, if it had good recovery, it wouldn't be C. I Havnt used it but I just think it's not a great mon unless you can afford to run wish support(cleric support is nice to). Stall and some balance teams, can afford to run this kind of support, stall being it runs this support to begin with and balance can run cleric wish support, but not all balance teams choose to.
Kingdra from B+ ---> A- I can see why people want it in A-, but it's poor without rain and, while extremely threatening, if there is no rain up it can't pull it's weight, especially if there is a dragon or fairy on the opposing team, which there often is.
Kingdra from B+ ---> A-: No. It's useful in rain, and rain alone. It's not even a staple in rain though, and competes for its teamslot with Omastar (who has the benefit of not caring about Talonflame).
This is the only one I'll talk about cause it's the only one I actually use.
While Kingdra only functions under Rain, it's currently in the same rank as Kabutops and Mega Swampert, which it is simply better than. Politoed is also in A- despite being exclusive to Rain. Furthermore, given how effective Rain is, is a raise to A- that unreasonable? Also it doesn't compete with Omastar, like not even close. As stated awhile ago, they're very good partners.
Anyway, as to why Kingdra is better than Kabu/Swamp:
It's the fastest (good) Swift Swimmer: Kingdra has the ability to outspeed every relevant scarfer and +1 Dragon Dancer, while using a neutral nature and ~228 Spe EVs. This reduces the number of answers offense has to Kingdra and Rain as a whole. Scarf Keldeo and Latios, for example, can check the other Swift Swimmers because they outspeed and hit them hard, while Kingdra outspeeds.
It has mixed offenses and a powerful secondary STAB: Kingdra's high-powered Dragon STABs (Draco Meteor and Outrage) give good neutral STAB coverage, and allow it to 2HKO many bulky water resists. Kabu's Stone Edge is less reliable and Mega Swamp's Earthquake has poorer neutral coverage, and both of them are more prediction heavy since Kingdra is not as threatened by Water and Grass STABs. Examples (some of these require a small amount of prior damage, don't nitpick):
Celebi (and Manaphy):
212+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 175-207 (43.3 - 51.2%)
64 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 173-204 (42.8 - 50.4%) Offensive Mega Venusaur:
Draco Meteor vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 200-238 (55.7 - 66.2%)
Outrage vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 144-172 (40.1 - 47.9%) Mega Slowbro:
Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro in Rain: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%)
Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 285-335 (72.3 - 85%) SDef sets can counter but still take half from Draco, and have to Recover to avoid 3HKO by Surf+Surf+Draco. All 3HKOs against defensive Pokemon can be taken advantage of with Encore Politoed. Mega Gyarados:
Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 187-222 (56.4 - 67%)
-1 Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 107-126 (32.3 - 38%)
These are some of the bulkiest and most threatening water resists. Other, more offensive resists, like Keldeo, lose a lot from Draco Meteor, and of course no opposing dragons like Lati@s, KyuB or Mega Sceptile can check Kingdra. Getting stuck in Outrage sucks, but the opposing team won't necessarily have something that can take advantage of it, and being able to take out something that walls a fellow Swift Swimmer is often worth it.
It doesn't stack weaknesses and isn't threatened by opposing water STABs: Kingdra is neutral to Electric and Grass, and most importantly quad resists water. It sucks when your opponent takes advantage of your Rain with something like Keldeo, but Kingdra can take a Specs+Rain boosted Hydro Pump with relative ease. Obviously Kingdra can't effectively switch in to, well, any neutral hit (it's not frail but it's by no means a tank,) but its neutrality makes it harder to check by Grasses and allows it to beat some electrics 1v1 outside of Rain. Mega Swampert is obviously a better electric check though.
td;dr
Very hard to check due to unmatchable speed, strong neutral STAB coverage, mixed offenses, and only one real exploitable weakness.
Calling Kingdra "not a staple on Rain" is completely inaccurate. I've honestly not seen a single Rain team that uses Kabutops or Omastar over or without Kingdra (I've seen a few that only use Mega Swampert but they're usually more balanced builds.) It obviously doesn't bring everything a Rain team needs (setting Rain, getting past Ferrothorn, checking Thundurus, etc.) but overall I feel it's the most well-rounded and effective Rain sweeper.
Mega Ampharos should not be moving down I'm putting in my support for it moving to B-/B.
There's not much I can say that Tainic didn't already say. I don't have experience using a defensive set but as the calcs done by Canned Bread show an offensive set does work in OU. One Agility and everything up to +natured Base Speed 122 is outsped which can turn it from powerful special Wallbreaker to potential sweeper. Pulling off an agility is incredibly easy as a lot common defensive Pokemon don't want to stay in and try and tank a hit. (Rotom, Heatran, Skarmory, Sableye-M, Clefable etc) at most they'll try to status and switch. It doesn't even need much team support, Ampharos's bulk and typing mean a lot of super fast threats can't OHKO. I can't emphasise how good its typing is, its STAB moves hit like 18 wheelers and have unresisted coverage with Focus Blast, it can switch in and set up fairly easily on most special attacekrs. No reason for this to move down.
I haven't really used megatron much either, but it's a pretty solid counter to...
megagross: 252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 69-82 (20 - 23.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
(Physical) megashark: 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aggron: 88-105 (25.5 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
DD Fluffers: +1 192+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 88-105 (25.5 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
And it checks
mega lop: 252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 126-150 (36.6 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
That's along with scizor, azu, bisharp, and loads of others...but skarm does it better. C- or D, but not unranked.
I haven't really used megatron much either, but it's a pretty solid counter to... megagross: 252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 69-82 (20 - 23.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO (Physical) megashark: 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aggron: 88-105 (25.5 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO DD Fluffers: +1 192+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 88-105 (25.5 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
And it checks mega lop: 252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 126-150 (36.6 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
That's along with scizor, azu, bisharp, and loads of others...but skarm does it better. C- or D, but not unranked.
Why did your calc show m-sharpedo using crunch on m-aggron? That is irrelevant, as sharpedo will always go for waterfall against aggron, which is a 2hko with a good roll.
Edit 1: woops, forgot it aggron is pure steel so waterfall isn't super effective.
Also, correct me if i am mistaken, but would a m-aggron ever actaully run max hp max def? Doesn't it very sorely need max spdef so as to deal with latis, thundurus, clefable, and other common specially orientated threats? It's defence is already sufficiently high, so using max defence is a bit of a waste. Also, m-metagross and m-altaria quite often run grass knot and fire blast respectively, so neither of those would count as pokemon that are countered by aggron.
Edit 2: yeah, forgot m-aggron was pure steel again, so I guess it does deal with m-metagross, but even so it needs reliable recovery to be a counter, and over the course of the battle it gets worn down quite quickly, so it doesn't consistently deal with m-metagross throughout a whole battle.
And because of m-aggron's lack of any reliable recovery, it will only be able to use its incredibly high defence a handful of times before all the moves it previously tanked become 2hkos from the range of hp it would now be at. It would only be a reliable switch in to certain pokemon a limited number of times, and this coupled with the fact that it wastes a mega slot (which is extremely crucial considering that most common megas are quite often the crux of a team and receive a lot of competition from each other, making m-aggron quite a limiting choice in terms of team building) cause m-aggron to have next to no place in the ou meta.
While it does have an arguably very minor niche, that niche won't last too long in practice as m-aggron gets worn down very quickly from all the switching. I think it should definitely move down, but I'd rather see it in D rank rather than unranked, as while its niche is not too important at all in this meta, it still has a niche, and that is all a D rank pokemon requires.
Also, correct me if i am mistaken, but would a m-aggron ever actaully run max hp max def? Doesn't it very sorely need max spdef so as to deal with latis, thundurus, clefable, and other common specially orientated threats? It's defence is already sufficiently high, so using max defence is a bit of a waste. Also, m-metagross and m-altaria quite often run grass knot and fire blast respectively, so neither of those would count as pokemon that are countered by aggron.
Edit 2: yeah, forgot m-aggron was pure steel again, so I guess it does deal with m-metagross, but even so it needs reliable recovery to be a counter, and over the course of the battle it gets worn down quite quickly, so it doesn't consistently deal with m-metagross throughout a whole battle.
And because of m-aggron's lack of any reliable recovery, it will only be able to use its incredibly high defence a handful of times before all the moves it previously tanked become 2hkos from the range of hp it would now be at. It would only be a reliable switch in to certain pokemon a limited number of times, and this coupled with the fact that it wastes a mega slot (which is extremely crucial considering that most common megas are quite often the crux of a team and receive a lot of competition from each other, making m-aggron quite a limiting choice in terms of team building) cause m-aggron to have next to no place in the ou meta.
While it does have an arguably very minor niche, that niche won't last too long in practice as m-aggron gets worn down very quickly from all the switching. I think it should definitely move down, but I'd rather see it in D rank rather than unranked, as while its niche is not too important at all in this meta, it still has a niche, and that is all a D rank pokemon requires.
I agree with D. But, to answer the physically defensive spread, that's the one I used in, like, 5 games on showdown. I didn't realize spdef was more popular, but I guess it makes sense (like bold chansey or whatever).
While it does have an arguably very minor niche, that niche won't last too long in practice as m-aggron gets worn down very quickly from all the switching. I think it should definitely move down, but I'd rather see it in D rank rather than unranked, as while its niche is not too important at all in this meta, it still has a niche, and that is all a D rank pokemon requires.
My problem with this statement is what I've put in bold. The precedence it implies is very dangerous to me and is what xcsmj was touching on; that perhaps we're being too soft on Pokémon just for small niches they might hold and we should instead look at it from a realistic teambuilding standpoint and decide if this niche is worth it, if the niche is outclassed or if the niche is altogether worthless. By the sort of logic presented here I could possibly promote Galvanulta to D-rank - which I did as my first nom on the rankings; how nostalgic - as it's the only Sticky Webber in the game with offensive presence and also has very high speed to easily get one up. Of course this won't get accepted because that niche isn't really appreciated in OU and it's offensive presence itself isn't that brilliant. This is why I was promoting Aggron to possibly be unranked. While there is no question in my mind that it has to move down and that seems to be the general consensus here too, I was also looking at it from the standpoint presented on the last page that as a Mega, while there is a certain niche to it, that niche is... kind of meh in comparison to what other stall megas do for your team. I could put forward Mega Abomasnow for D-rank too as it's the only trick room Mega with a strong Blizzard and mixed attacking prowess... but is that really that great of a niche using up your Mega Slot for, and would you really find yourself using it over Ampharos or Camerupt on TR? Mega Aggron has niches over Skarmory as a physical wall, but at the same time Mega Audino has niches over Clefable has a wall and that's been unranked. This is the sort of angle I'm getting at. While there's no doubt it's got the niche of a physical wall with parashuffling - though I'm sure there's other things that can do that too... - we have to consider if this is worth the immense opportunity cost.
Mega Gardevoir for A+. It is really cool, to see how people abusing Mega Metagross and other new Megas, which were implemented in ORAS. People prepar more for the new Megas and most likely do not care about the old Megas anymore. Whenever I play with Gardevoir, I win my matches. It seems like nobody is prepared for it anymore, because most players forgot about a hidden thread. It is a huge win condition against common playstyles like balanced and stall. Furthermore it was one of the best Megas in XY! It is in my opinion a underestimated Pokemon like Mega Pinsir at the moment, because people spam Metagross and Lopunny. If you check out some SPL replays or statistics, you will see, that most players who used Gardevoir won the match, that is not an accident!
Lets discuss about it :]
edit: Furthermore it handles top threads to name some: Sableye, Latias, Latios, Clefable, Altaria, Tyranitar and Venusaur
lets slow down a bit.... yeah garde is good but its a little slow for a plus... theres alot of better choices.. also things like mega metagross and a mostly steel meta theres NO reason why this should see any increase
lets slow down a bit.... yeah garde is good but its a little slow for a plus... theres alot of better choices.. also things like mega metagross and a mostly steel meta theres NO reason why this should see any increase
This reasoning is very weak to me because the exact same logic can be applied to Mega Diancie who is also destroyed by Steel and is very slow on the turn of Mega Evolution. While I don't have an opinion on it, the reasoning put forward for Mega Gardevoir moving up is that it singlehandedly dismantles stall, in which case it wouldn't care about it's speed at all. Opportunity cost for a Mega means nothing in this case because Mega Gardevoir's niche is both unique to it and incredibly appreciated in the meta that is, according to the new rankings descriptions, partly defined by Mega Sableye.
Talking of the new rankings descriptions, they're not implemented on the OP when they're listed for a second time above the actual Pokémon of that rank. trc mind fixing that or is that intentional?
having mega beedrill is giving yourself free momentum, except the difference between mega beedrill and mega manectric is you can just eliminate your opponent's counters to bee easily with magnezone / magneton which just fries skarm (knock off bee), ferro, scizor, klefki, and weakened defensive excadrill. landorus-t just gets worn down by repeated u-turns and knock off just turns defensive lando-t in a liability. scarf lando-t never took u-turn well without defensive investment anyways especially with stealth rock up and lack of lefties. heatran takes a big chunk from knock off and loses its ability to take latios draco meteor, the most common teammate with bee because it gets rid of rocks. unlike mega man, mega bee outspeeds mega lopunny turning it in to a check which many ho teams struggle to deal with. gliscor is pretty much the only thing that fully walls this thing, but you just get momentum and you can bring keldeo and just burn latios or something. it completely destroys something and if you switch you lose your counter if not running gliscor or it just generates set up oppurtunities for things like subcm keldeo or even sd excadrill. i really acn't say much, but here is a neat replay between mcmeghan v jukain which shows how useful the momentum it brings is. the only problem in plays i saw was knock off'ing the skarm and losing bee, even though mcmeghan could have used u-turn, force it out, and knock off it again later next time jukain brought celebi (which is just free bee bait) meaning either celebi has to die to knock off or skarm will just die to magneton allowing either keld or bee to have a field day. it fits really well in the popular lando-t / mag / bee core and this shows how useful bee is. outside of this, it is a huge threat to offensive teams and the only problem is weakness to stealth rock meaning it can only switch in to it like twice. it dies to like all priority too bar mach punch. it is a great check to fairys with poison jab and is ridiculously hard to wall when you have a 140 bp momentum grabber and 160 bp move that can wear down threats with poison over time. finally, i would like to address that being reliant on protect isn't bad for bee, but helps because it forces scarf lando-t to eq which means losing a crap load of momentum or relying on a double switch. it makes a possible rk so much easier to abuse by gaining momentum if it eqs or if it u-turn, you just u-turn and get momentum again and bee has room for it unlike mega manectric and doesn't get walled by crap like mega altaria and zardx and the things that do wall bee get wreck by mag. its a good mega choice that faces like zero competition in its category bar mega manectric, but you have the choice between both when making a volt turn team. mega bee brings a lot more power, however. tspikes absorber is nice too. should stay in b+. rocks tho ._.
mega ampharos is not garbage but so hard to fit when you have a choice of mega metagross, mega manectric, mega sceptile, and mainly mega swampert when making your rain team. it was good in xy rain because 3 out of 4 of these didn't exist, and it could sweep with thunder / dragon pulse / focus blast coverage + really good modest 165 SpA and not being prone to priority + really good bulk. it faces a lot of competition and mega amph outside rain lacks enough power because tbolt sucks and mega alt was introduced which sets up on it / walls / kills which sucks. 3 attacks + heal bell is nice momentum grabber and cleric, but balance teams have better options. its really hard to justify its use. masterclass used np pass togekiss which is actually really good with amph due to the ridiculous synergy and being able to completely wreck teams when it gets the boost. even then, scarf lando-t is everywhere now unlike xy, and metagame is not in favor for mega amph to sweep. it is still a nice rain sweeper. just faces competition. on par with mega glalie in terms of viability. it should drop to c
This reasoning is very weak to me because the exact same logic can be applied to Mega Diancie who is also destroyed by Steel and is very slow on the turn of Mega Evolution. While I don't have an opinion on it, the reasoning put forward for Mega Gardevoir moving up is that it singlehandedly dismantles stall, in which case it wouldn't care about it's speed at all. Opportunity cost for a Mega means nothing in this case because Mega Gardevoir's niche is both unique to it and incredibly appreciated in the meta that is, according to the new rankings descriptions, partly defined by Mega Sableye.
Talking of the new rankings descriptions, they're not implemented on the OP when they're listed for a second time above the actual Pokémon of that rank. trc mind fixing that or is that intentional?
That's completely backwards. Diancie has arguably one of the worst movepools in the entire game, with... I think Moonblast, Diamond Storm, Earth Power and HP Fire are it's only good attacking moves. Maybe Psyshock and HP ground if you're pushing it. The big problem here comes in that of it's dual STAB, one is special and one is physical. This forces you to either forgo one or split your offensive investment between both your offensive stats, already putting you at a disadvantage. As for non-offensive moves, Calm Mind, Rock Polish and Protect all give it some versatility, but it's nowhere near being one of the 'best movepools in the game'.
Mega Gardevoir is the complete opposite. On the offensive side it has everything it really wants in Hyper Voice, Focus Blast and Psyshock, while it's final slot is host to a whole ton of diverse, interesting and useful status moves. Taunt to help dismantle stall, Will-O-Wisp to deter physical switch-ins, and other more niche but still useful moves like Memento, Destiny Bond and Thunder Wave. In no way does it have a worse movepool than Diancie and I have no idea where you got that from.
I've already stated why Gardevoir doesn't care about it's speed, but for Diancie speed is still a problem because it has to deal with it's awful Base 50 Speed on the first turn of Megalution, either forcing you to run Protect or have a lot of support to even Mega Evolve. In fact for this reason I actually think it should go back to A and the logic on why it moved to A+ honestly escapes me.
There's a very big reason you'd run Mega Gardevoir over Mega Diancie, and that's because they perform completely different jobs. Diancie is purely an offensive Pokémon - it can set up a sweep or it can get right to wallbreaking with it's very impressive mixed attacking prowess and good speed after Mega Evolving. Mega Gardevoir's job is, as said, to dismantle stall with both it's incredible power, it's good special defence and support options in Taunt, Will-O-Wisp etc. I don't know if it deserves to go back up to A+, perhaps so based on the fact that Mega Sableye and it's stall currently defines the Meta, but I would not consider the arguments you're using at all.
That's completely backwards. Diancie has arguably one of the worst movepools in the entire game, with... I think Moonblast, Diamond Storm, Earth Power and HP Fire are it's only good attacking moves. Maybe Psyshock and HP ground if you're pushing it. The big problem here comes in that of it's dual STAB, one is special and one is physical. This forces you to either forgo one or split your offensive investment between both your offensive stats, already putting you at a disadvantage. As for non-offensive moves, Calm Mind, Rock Polish and Protect all give it some versatility, but it's nowhere near being one of the 'best movepools in the game'.
Mega Gardevoir is the complete opposite. On the offensive side it has everything it really wants in Hyper Voice, Focus Blast and Psyshock, while it's final slot is host to a whole ton of diverse, interesting and useful status moves. Taunt to help dismantle stall, Will-O-Wisp to deter physical switch-ins, and other more niche but still useful moves like Memento, Destiny Bond and Thunder Wave. In no way does it have a worse movepool than Diancie and I have no idea where you got that from.
I've already stated why Gardevoir doesn't care about it's speed, but for Diancie speed is still a problem because it has to deal with it's awful Base 50 Speed on the first turn of Megalution, either forcing you to run Protect or have a lot of support to even Mega Evolve. In fact for this reason I actually think it should go back to A and the logic on why it moved to A+ honestly escapes me.
There's a very big reason you'd run Mega Gardevoir over Mega Diancie, and that's because they perform completely different jobs. Diancie is purely an offensive Pokémon - it can set up a sweep or it can get right to wallbreaking with it's very impressive mixed attacking prowess and good speed after Mega Evolving. Mega Gardevoir's job is, as said, to dismantle stall with both it's incredible power, it's good special defence and support options in Taunt, Will-O-Wisp etc. I don't know if it deserves to go back up to A+, perhaps so based on the fact that Mega Sableye and it's stall currently defines the Meta, but I would not consider the arguments you're using at all.
And what does Hyper Voice, Focus Blast and Psyshock not hit?
The arguments you're using are completely one-sided in Mega Diancie's favour. While definitely a fantastic Pokémon, it in no way outclasses Mega Gardevoir and by saying so you're displaying a fundamental misunderstanding of both Megas. Regardless I feel this is derailing the discussion and should not go on any further. Both Mega Gardevoir and Mega Diancie have their very good, unique and defined niches which any good player will know. You should learn more about the two before making comparisons and immediate statements on them. I've said all I could and I won't repeat myself again - Mega Diancie and Mega Gardevoir are completely different Pokémon when you look beyond the first glance. Learn more about them before making such statements again.
My problem with this statement is what I've put in bold. The precedence it implies is very dangerous to me; that perhaps we're being too soft on Pokémon just for small niches they might hold and we should instead look at it from a realistic teambuilding standpoint and decide if this niche is worth it, if the niche is outclassed or if the niche is altogether worthless.
As has been established, while the niche is not very important it does have some worth to it. I can not say wether or not the niche is worth it, as that depends solely on what you as a teambuilder are looking for.
By the sort of logic presented here I could possibly promote Galvanulta to D-rank - which I did as my first nom on the rankings; how nostalgic - as it's the only Sticky Webber in the game with offensive presence and also has very high speed to easily get one up. Of course this won't get accepted because that niche isn't really appreciated in OU and it's offensive presence itself isn't that brilliant. This is why I was promoting Aggron to possibly be unranked.
The niches presented between the two mons are different in both effectiveness and worth. Sticky Web is a lot easier to play around than full paralysis (just use levitate, flying, rapid spin, or defog) and is also delicious for a bisharp to come in on. Paralysis on the other hand is quite literally crippling (no offence intended to anyone), more reliable, and has other uses, such as praying for a full para, which can quite often change a game.
While there is no question in my mind that it has to move down and that seems to be the general consensus here too, I was also looking at it from the standpoint presented on the last page that as a Mega, while there is a certain niche to it, that niche is... kind of meh in comparison to what other stall megas do for your team. I could put forward Mega Abomasnow for D-rank too as it's the only trick room Mega with a strong Blizzard and mixed attacking prowess...
That logic is quite different from the logic used when defining a usable niche. A pokemon with a niche is a pokemon that can do something that very few other pokemon can do, but that something needs to be important or usable. What you have done there is listed something that abamsnow has that very few other pokemon have. This is akin to saying something like "magikarp has a niche in that it is the only pokemon in the whole game that evolves into gyarados."
Mega Aggron has niches over Skarmory as a physical wall, but at the same time Mega Audino has niches over Clefable has a wall and that's been unranked. This is the sort of angle I'm getting at. While there's no doubt it's got the niche of a physical wall with parashuffling - though I'm sure there's other things that can do that too... -
M-aggron does indeed have a niche over skarmory as a physical wall, but it has another job as well in parashuffling. M-audino has 1 job and 1 job only, and to be honest I don't see how it does that better than clefable as with lefties clefable could out-wall audino even with a larger defensive stat difference.
we have to consider if this is worth the immense opportunity cost.
Yes. It is worth the opportunity cost. On select teams. This is key. On the average team, the mere idea of using m-aggron is laughable, but on a select team on which m-aggron could flourish (like a status spreading, paraflinch team with hex gengar, or something like that) then it is most definitely worth the opportunity cost.
