Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk III

[Mulan15262]

I don't see why Mega Evolving should be restricted to A0. For most mons it's best to do it right away anyway but if you can find some reason to hold off for a specific action then why penalize that?

One problem is that mega-evolving a later action of the round can give the person ordering second. For example, if you are ordering first with a faster water-type against a Charizard that is holding a Charizardite Y in a 3 subs match, your orders might be something like this:
Rain Dance - Waterfall - Waterfall
If Charizard uses Sunny Day, use Waterfall that action and Rain Dance the next.
If Charizard uses Bide, use Rain Dance - Toxic - Waterfall.
If Charizard uses Counter when you would use Waterfall, use Hydro Pump.

However, that wouldn't leave you able to sub for something like this:
Thunder Punch - [MEGA-EVOLVE] Solar Beam - Solar Beam
Which would leave you wasting an action and ending with harsh sunlight for your two waterfalls.


This can also apply in other cases, like trying to use Skill Swap/Gastro Acid/Entrainment to disable a mega ability, like Mega Mawile's Huge Power, or using an attack that isn't very strong until the pokemon mega-evolves, like ground-type moves on a Charizard @ Charizardite X or using electric/ice moves on a Pinsir @ Pinsirite.

 

[TSRD]

Yes, and? It gives options. Are those options "too good"? I don't think so from the examples you just gave (though there might be better ones).
In your first example they can get around this by changing their Sunny Day sub into a sub about whether the weather is sunny and not using Rain Dance A1.
In your second example I personally have no problem with Mawile having more protection from having its Huge power messed up (plus wouldn't getting Gastro Acid on it stop its huge power while in effect anyway?).

 

[Mulan15262]

Yes, and? It gives options. Are those options "too good"? I don't think so from the examples you just gave (though there might be better ones).
In your first example they can get around this by changing their Sunny Day sub into a sub about whether the weather is sunny and not using Rain Dance A1.
In your second example I personally have no problem with Mawile having more protection from having its Huge power messed up (plus wouldn't getting Gastro Acid on it stop its huge power while in effect anyway?).

For your first point, try putting that against the orders [MEGA-EVOLVE]Sunny Day - Sunny Day - Thunder Punch. That sub would make your pokemon use Rain Dance 3 times in a row, while Charizard uses Sunny Day twice and then gets off an attack.

For your second point, I'd like to show you this battle, where a player delayed Mawile's mega-evolution to keep its ability after a Worry Seed. I guess Gastro Acid would still prevent Huge Power, but the rest wouldn't.

Also, here is the discussion thread that focused some on this part of mega-evolution.

 

[TSRD]

Yes, yes. There are ways to use evolving later to your advantage, that's the whole point.

As for the two examples, You can obviously have your Rain Dance sub be none consecutive or altered in any number of ways to best suit the situation.
Likewise, you don't need to Worry Seed a Mawile until such time as it actually has Huge Power so you can work around that too (though I would argue Worry Seed should have blocked Huge Power in that battle, that's really not on topic though).

Anyway, it's not that I don't understand the idea, it's that I disagree with the assertion that it's too powerful (at least not without a better example).
All I got from the post you linked was that this version was picked because it was simplest. That's fine if that is what's being strived for (as it is with STAB abilities).

 

[Its_A_Random]

Because the Council at the time decided that restricting it to before A1 is the best way to go about it. Also because it is majorly pedant-proof.

Also:

[11:41] <@~Its_A_Random> it should default to mega evolving before the round starts
[11:41] <@~Its_A_Random> irrespective of where it is stated
[11:41] <@~Its_A_Random> whether it is
[11:41] <@~Its_A_Random> mega evolve
[11:42] <@~Its_A_Random> earthquake > earthquake > earthquake
[11:42] <@~Its_A_Random> or
[11:42] <@~Its_A_Random> mega evolve earthquake > earthquake > earthquake
[11:42] <@~Its_A_Random> or
[11:42] <@~Its_A_Random> earthquake > earthquake > earthquake
[11:42] <@~Its_A_Random> mega evolve

 

[Gerard]

How is it pedant-proof?
It should be made much more explicit, since this even goes against the in-game mechanic. And is not clear considering enough people though that it was possible and the only line that could reference it it's implicit at best.

 

[Dogfish44]

WRT it being clear, I can quote the handbook (Emphasii mine)

"A Pokemon can Mega Evolve before the first action in a round under any condition, including Sleep, Freeze, or Taunt. Mega Evolution does not itself take up an action, and does not have an inherent Energy Cost (it may activate abilities that do, such as Drought or Sand Stream). Mega Evolution cannot occur in the middle of a round."...

That's literally as explicit as possible ._.

 

[Its_A_Random]

I only added the cannot occur bit yesterday on request simply to satisfy those who do not have something resembling common sense and / or reading comprehension. Because you know, not everyone can infer from the first sentence that being able to mega evolve mid-round is outlawed? >_>

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Regardless of how explicit the statement originally was the voting and discussion are crystal clear, no mega evolving except at a0. The new statement only enhances comprehension so sorry gerard but you don't have a leg to stand on here.

 

[Frosty]

Can someone please be a dear and remove the "look away" shit from Hypnosis? It kinda messes up with everything.

Unless someone is in favor of letting it stay there.

 

[akela]

Can someone please be a dear and remove the "look away" shit from Hypnosis? It kinda messes up with everything.

Unless someone is in favor of letting it stay there.

I don't want to get yelled at for editing moves without a discussion again.

 

[TSRD]

Can someone please be a dear and remove the "look away" shit from Hypnosis? It kinda messes up with everything.

Unless someone is in favor of letting it stay there.

If this actually happens could we do the same with stuff like Taunt and Mean Look not working if the opponent can't see them, ect...? It's basically the same flavor stuff.

 

[tavok]

Except that Taunt and Mean Look don't have a look away "command" (or at least Taunt doesn't).

 

[Its_A_Random]

Hey does anyone object to adding Baton Pass (Switch) as a Self-Switching move for the purposes of substitutions? It obviously switches the user out and it is currently not listed as a clause so...

 

[TSRD]

Hey does anyone object to adding Baton Pass (Switch) as a Self-Switching move for the purposes of substitutions? It obviously switches the user out and it is currently not listed as a clause so...

Teleport [Switch] is listed so I can't think of a reason why Baton Pass wouldn't be. I mean that's the whole point of the move to begin with really.

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

Imho, There should be a base UC for Gym Refs. Because when battles get cancelled before 2 rounds, the major loser is the Referee who made the OP and may be reffed a round (Happened to me thrice already). May be 3 UC? To be compatible with Facilities?

I know a gym battle doesn't get cancelled regularly and there are important reasons why they are cancelled in the first place. But there is no reason for the referee's work to be negated because of that.

If the battle goes beyond two rounds, then the ref gets the normal pay. The base pay is just to avoid the penalty on refs for the cancellation done by players. May be a better word for it is, compensation pay?

 

[Mulan15262]

Imho, There should be a base UC for Gym Refs. Because when battles get cancelled before 2 rounds, the major loser is the Referee who made the OP and may be reffed a round (Happened to me thrice already). May be 3 UC? To be compatible with Facilities?

I know a gym battle doesn't get cancelled regularly and there are important reasons why they are cancelled in the first place. But there is no reason for the referee's work to be negated because of that.

If the battle goes beyond two rounds, then the ref gets the normal pay. The base pay is just to avoid the penalty on refs for the cancellation done by players. May be a better word for it is compensation pay?

How about making the extra UC for it being a gym battle (the number of pokemon on each side) happen regardless of what the battle does, and always be the same amount? For example, if I ref a 3v3 gym challenge, and then that happens, I'd get 3 UC, while if I ref a 4v4 gym challenge and it happens, I'd get 4 UC.

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

How about making the extra UC for it being a gym battle (the number of pokemon on each side) happen regardless of what the battle does, and always be the same amount? For example, if I ref a 3v3 gym challenge, and then that happens, I'd get 3 UC, while if I ref a 4v4 gym challenge and it happens, I'd get 4 UC.

Actually Mulan, the effort to build an OP and to ref one round of a 6v6 battle, doesn't deserve 6 UC imo. This is more so because, sometimes the ref spends time asking the players to send in, then builds an OP with flavor and waits for the players to respond, but then after a few weeks / months the battle gets cancelled. Its more of an insurance to the referee rather than a battle based pay.

And just to make it clear, the compensation pay will not be added to the regular payment for the battle. It will only be awarded incase of DQ before 2 rounds and forfeit / cancellation before 2 rounds are completed.

 

[Elevator Music]

Dunno if I should put this in a new thread. I've been working on updating the CAP learnsets, I've finished all the Gen 4 CAPs. If people could look them over for accuracy that'd be great.

Just as a note, I edited the Gen 6 tutors to include Focus Punch/Shock Wave/Water Pulse if the Pokemon got it any other way. Also, Colossoil was missing Hyper Beam for Gen 5 and Gen 6, so I added it in for those (there are a couple other moves like that for various CAPs, and I left notes in the spreadsheet as such).

Comments/questions/feedback welcome.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gNDmnvcmZorweSr2b_XXukMKL0OKD35F_JXh7je-ocA/edit?usp=sharing
(changed the link)

I've updated this so that it includes all CAPs, and made some fixes that were pointed out to me. If people could continue to look these over for errors it'd be much appreciated. Either just VM/PM me the error, comment in here, or comment in the sheet itself I guess.

I also included a "Real Cost" for each CAP, which is basically just the total MC required to max taking into account the free moves you get when purchasing a Pokemon.

Just a reminder of this. If someone wants to check this for accuracy and/or stick this in the NDA, that'd be awesome.

 

[waterwarrior]

So back to Sucker Punch + Vice Grip- there seemed to be a good amount of approval for either limiting the combo's immunity phase to just the attack action or dropping it entirely and then it just kinda dropped off without anything happening. I guess a discussion thread should be put up, but I doubt any other options will really be brought up besides

a) Remove Sucker Punch + Vice Grip's contact attack immunity completely
b) Limit Sucker Punch + Vice Grip's contact attack immunity to only the action of the attack
c) No change

So should we move this to a quick vote or is it just gonna be dropped?

 

[Birkal]

Please fix it. It abuses the one balance this game has for combos: the cooldown phase. Option B sounds the best, since it still gives Vice Grip some utility. Option A is definitely preferred to Option C.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Removing the contact immunity bonus wrt vice grip with sucker punch because ppl wont stop complaining.

Also doing the baton pass thing.

 

[akela]

Someone needs to make the suggestion before someone tries to use the moves:

Action: Hold Back (Move) | Type: Normal | Category: Physical | Target: Adjacent Target | BAP: 4 | Acc: 100% | Energy Cost: 3 | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Priority: 0 | Combo Type: ??? | Snatch?: No | Magic Coat?: No |
Description: The user holds back when it attacks. This attack, and any attack it is combined with, cannot reduce the target below 1 HP.

Action: Hold Hands (Move) | Type: Normal | Category: Other | Target: Adjacent Ally | BAP: -- | Acc: -- | Energy Cost: ??? | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: No | Priority: 0 |Combo Type: ??? | Snatch?: No | Magic Coat: No |
Description: The user and an ally hold hands. This makes them very happy.

 

[Geodude6]

Suggesting that we make Hold Back and Hold Hands have CT: Deferring to correspond with False Swipe and Splash/Celebrate, respectively.

 

[Gerard]

Hold hands happy effect seems similar enough from sing's that it can be adopted to it (dusrupts charging and outrage-like moves)